Malaysia Airlines flight MH370-Updates and Discussion

Growler!!!

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I find it odd that I am walking around with more satellite tracking than a 777. They should stick an iPhone on the roof.

Turn your phone off and it won't, it's been explained why earlier on thread.

Peppa Pig

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

It seems interesting that the flight went to 45,000 feet. At this altitude the plane could be in danger of falling out of the sky. It has been said that the plane fell 40,000 feet in a minute. Could explain why. You would think the pilot would be aware of this. Had they been forced to fly at this height? At this height would they avoid radar?

The NYT article also had experts saying the data was dodgy as the plane would take longer than a minute to descend that far. It would need to fall at about 450mph, most likely pointing straight down.

sopretty

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Was it at that height while on its usual flight path, or when it had veered off course entirely?

ABC101

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Does anyone know what potential damage, if any, an aircraft could experience flying above the limit at 45,000ft?

I believe the higher you go... the thinner the air / atmosphere.

The engines can lose thrust / power, the weight of the plane is no longer supported by the air flow over the wings, and the plane then stalls, effectively falling out of the sky.

Now it could be higher then 45k feet... but if a plane is designed to fly at 35K feet, 45K feet is almost 30% higher than 35K feet.

That's my understanding, but you need a pilot or aviation experienced person to answer that one.

Growler!!!

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Does anyone know what potential damage, if any, an aircraft could experience flying above the limit at 45,000ft?

Quoted cruise altitude is 43,000ft.

Growler!!!

ABC101 wrote: »

I believe the higher you go... the thinner the air / atmosphere.

The engines can lose thrust / power, the weight of the plane is no longer supported by the air flow over the wings, and the plane then stalls, effectively falling out of the sky.

That's my understanding, but you need a pilot or aviation experienced person to answer that one.

Just to clarify, when an aircraft wing stalls the aircraft will not drop out of the sky. The nose will drop reducing the angle of attack and the wing will regain lift and continue to fly. Unless someone pulls up again...

expectationlost

Jack1985 wrote: »

Regards authorities releasing information, they cannot legally under ICAO Annex 13 when the information is being investigated.

not officially

fr336

Such immaturity in this thread too much of the time, any chance of culling some posts as well as some users? This isn't a complaint about the mods, more of a shout out to them.

cml387

45,000 feet is probably beyond the limit of a 777 with a full load and fuel.
It's not that it could accidentally exceed the altitude and explode,it's just that it physically couldn't fly any higher.

However,at a great height there is another hazard.

At very high altitudes, the air is very thin. To maintain altitude the aircraft must fly very, very fast. Otherwise the aircraft will stall.
On the other hand, the aircraft speed is approaching the speed of sound, a region of flight which the 777 is not supposed to be in, causing a bad thing called mach buffet.

This trap, too fast and you enter the dangerous region of the speed of sound, too slow and you stall, is called "coffin corner".

Lustrum

According to Boeing the service ceiling is 43,100ft. Presumably with passengers on board and 7hrs fuel that is reduced by a couple of thousand feet. Perhaps one of the guys here who actually flies one might know what the absolute ceiling for the 777 is? If they think now that it got up to 45000ft that could explain how a loss of control may have come about possibly.

To answer the questions, service ceiling is what the operational limit set by the manufacturer that is lower than the absolute ceiling. This provides a measure of safety to keep you below the absolute ceiling. To understand why, Google "coffin corner" which is another name for the absolute ceiling. Basically, if you get that high it's going to be a bad day

Edit: see above post too!

Snowc

fr336 wrote: »

Such immaturity in this thread too much of the time, any chance of culling some posts as well as some users? This isn't a complaint about the mods, more of a shout out to them.

Telling a mod what to do is a big no-no on boards so now its you who will get a ban after that post , how ironic

Dacian

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I find it odd that I am walking around with more satellite tracking than a 777. They should stick an iPhone on the roof.

I am going to assume that you are walking around a populated area of civilisation?

I do see the validity of your query. However aircraft comms are usually a little old tech (due to length of certification process), This is in no way to suggest that they are 'out dated'.
In addition the aircraft was 'lost' while approx 8 miles above the sea and several hundred miles from the nearest mainland and conveniently located cell mast.

sopretty

But why would the plane go up that far then? Had the pilots completely lost control of the aircraft? Would you intentionally fly to that altitude and then manage to continue along in some sort of random exploration of the Indian Ocean?

fr336

Snowc wrote: »

Telling a mod what to do is a big no-no on boards so now its you who will get a ban after that post , how ironic

I said 'any chance', where is the 'Do as I say'.

And as if to back up my point, along you come with something even more immature than I was talking about anyway. Ah well hope it made you feel better....:rolleyes:

Colser

Quick question before Im culled:).When the flight was leaving Malaysian airspace has it(or can it) be confirmed that it was the actual pilot that spoke..are those converations recorded?

wil

cml387 wrote: »

45,000 feet is probably beyond the limit of a 777 with a full load and fuel.
It's not that it could accidentally exceed the altitude and explode,it's just that it physically couldn't fly any higher.

However,at a great height there is another hazard.

At very high altitudes, the air is very thin. To maintain altitude the aircraft must fly very, very fast. Otherwise the aircraft will stall.
On the other hand, the aircraft speed is approaching the speed of sound, a region of flight which the 777 is not supposed to be in, causing a bad thing called mach buffet.

This trap, too fast and you enter the dangerous region of the speed of sound, too slow and you stall, is called "coffin corner".

Interesting, do you have a scenario how this might have played out to match how much or little we know?

Growler!!!

Feck it lads we had a string of informative posts from the silent know it alls who were keeping the information to themselves, but now I see we're back to sniping. Oh well I'm off to the military thread for a while.

Tigerandahalf

Can radar be evaded at 45,000 feet and thus allow the plane to cross the mainland without being detected?

irishmover

Is it only the US who are searching the Indian Ocean at present?

cml387

wil wrote: »

Interesting, do you have a scenario how this might have played out to match how much or little we know?

Sorry, no. I saw a reference to high altititude and some questions about the consequences.

geneva geneva4444

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Can radar be evaded at 45,000 feet and thus allow the plane to cross the mainland without being detected?

No. For example, Irish controlled airspace is up to FL660. Good luck getting up there though. Haha. As an aside, I'm amazed to hear these FL450 stories. Can someone show me a link, I appear to have missed that info.

In all my days as a controller, I've not seen a 777 do more than 410. I would imagine the quoted ceiling of 430 mentioned earlier is basically an empty plane or are quoted ceilings based on standard fuel loads and passenger numbers?

cosanostra

cml387 wrote: »

45,000 feet is probably beyond the limit of a 777 with a full load and fuel.
It's not that it could accidentally exceed the altitude and explode,it's just that it physically couldn't fly any higher.

However,at a great height there is another hazard.

At very high altitudes, the air is very thin. To maintain altitude the aircraft must fly very, very fast. Otherwise the aircraft will stall.
On the other hand, the aircraft speed is approaching the speed of sound, a region of flight which the 777 is not supposed to be in, causing a bad thing called mach buffet.

This trap, too fast and you enter the dangerous region of the speed of sound, too slow and you stall, is called "coffin corner".

Lets say they managed to successfully fly the plane around that altitude would that decrease the fuel burn rate thus increasing the distance they could travel and reduce the time it would take to get there?

Y2KBOS86

Still going with below



How frightening would it be if they find the plane on the exact day and hour it first disappeared?

Passengers would surely have noticed the plane climbing up to 45,000 feet?

cml387

geneva geneva4444 wrote: »

No. For example, Irish controlled airspace is up to FL660. Good luck getting up there though. Haha. As an aside, I'm amazed to hear these FL450 stories. Can someone show me a link, I appear to have missed that info.

In all my days as a controller, I've not seen a 777 do more than 410. I would imagine the quoted ceiling of 430 mentioned earlier is basically an empty plane or are quoted ceilings based on standard fuel loads and passenger numbers?

At the risk of an off topic post, there is a story about the American controller handling Concorde for the first time:

Concorde: Speedbird One request flight level five zero zero.
Controller: Jeez Speedbird, if you can get up there you can have it.
Concorde: Speedbird One you misunderstand, request descent to five zero zero.

Captain Chaos

cosanostra wrote: »

Lets say they managed to successfully fly the plane around that altitude would that decrease the fuel burn rate thus increasing the distance they could travel and reduce the time it would take to get there?

The most economical altitude range for an aircraft is between 36-41k depending on conditions. Going any higher generally will not help unless you are entering a tail wind jet stream.

wretcheddomain

cosanostra wrote: »

Lets say they managed to successfully fly the plane around that altitude would that decrease the fuel burn rate thus increasing the distance they could travel and reduce the time it would take to get there?

It could hardly increase distance travelled if that height would cause them to lose speed i.e. I believe they would need to travel faster to maintain the lift of the aircraft.

Captain Chaos

cml387 wrote: »

At the risk of an off topic post, there is a story about the American controller handling Concorde for the first time:

Concorde: Speedbird One request flight level five zero zero.
Controller: Jeez Speedbird, if you can get up there you can have it.
Concorde: Speedbird One you misunderstand, request descent to five zero zero.

There is a similar one for an SR-71 pilot many many years ago requesting FL65 and that was a descent too.

wil

I can appreciate why regulars might take time out from posting here, Information underload combined with continuous fairly aimless and sometimes uninformed speculation really takes it's toll.
That is not to underestimate the effect it is having on the families following it in real life for just one shred of hope.

So far, I don't think we can rely on even one piece of information to be definitely solid, incontrovertible and uncontested and for that reason it is incredible but nothing can be ruled in or out.

There are still a few things that don't seem to have been discussed and I think are worthy of input from the more experienced.
more anon

Sala

This is all very strange. If we assume it was not the pilots but someone else on board who took over, that would require
A good deal of planning. Why would they then fly the plane too high, or for too long and run out of fuel?
Would if be possible for a bunch of amateurs to keep it airborne for a number of hours?

Thrill

geneva geneva4444 wrote: »

No. For example, Irish controlled airspace is up to FL660. Good luck getting up there though. Haha. As an aside, I'm amazed to hear these FL450 stories. Can someone show me a link, I appear to have missed that info.

In all my days as a controller, I've not seen a 777 do more than 410. I would imagine the quoted ceiling of 430 mentioned earlier is basically an empty plane or are quoted ceilings based on standard fuel loads and passenger numbers?

CNN quoting an unnamed Malaysian official. There's no official confirmation of this as far as I'm aware.

The jetliner was flying "a strange path," the official said on condition of anonymity. The details of the radar readings were first reported by The New York Times on Friday.


Malaysian military radar showed the plane climbing to 45,000 feet soon after disappearing from civilian radar screens and then dropping to 23,000 feet before climbing again, the official said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/14/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?sr=tw031414indianoceanpath550pVODtop