Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

Slick50

aloyisious wrote: »

I'm waiting now to see if Alan is gone completely from Govt office, or if it's only as DOJ that he's gone. He was, up til this afternoon, holding two ministry portfolios. Edna's Dail statement referred only to the DOJ Minister resigning.

Enda stated he had recommended to the president, he accept Shatters resignation from government. So he is gone from cabinet.

bajer101

aloyisious wrote: »

Just listening to Enda on RTE's Oireachtas report, stating that GSOC did not co-operate with Mr Guerin. Liz is taking him to task for that. Stupid Enda, it would have been better to say the report is there for all to read and draw their own conclusions.

This is very interesting, and is something that has been glossed over. Why were GSOC reluctant to cooperate with with Guerin? Are GSOC now so full of themselves that they can tell an official enquiry to go fúck themselves. That's dangerous territory.

expectationlost

aloyisious wrote: »

Just listening to Enda on RTE's Oireachtas report, stating that GSOC did not co-operate with Mr Guerin. Liz is taking him to task for that. Stupid Enda, it would have been better to say the report is there for all to read and draw their own conclusions.

liz?

expectationlost

bajer101 wrote: »

This is very interesting, and is something that has been glossed over. Why were GSOC reluctant to cooperate with with Guerin? Are GSOC now so full of themselves that they can tell an official enquiry to go fúck themselves. That's dangerous territory.

we'll see on friday when report is released but shatter resignation letter partly answers this, after all the crap they got about not being careful with information, they wanted to be careful with information/documentions and couldn't give what they had to the investigator as soon as he wanted it.

http://www.thejournal.ie/alan-shatter-resigns-1452857-May2014/

bajer101

expectationlost wrote: »

we'll see on fridsy when report is released but shatter resignation letter partly answers this, after all the crap they got about not be careful with information, they wanted to be careful with information/documentions and couldn't give what they had to the investigator as soon as he wanted it.

http://www.thejournal.ie/alan-shatter-resigns-1452857-May2014/

What? Is everyone missing the obvious here? The Guerin report is hinting at it and the Cooke report will spell it out.

sillyoulfool

bajer101 wrote: »

This is very interesting, and is something that has been glossed over. Why were GSOC reluctant to cooperate with with Guerin? Are GSOC now so full of themselves that they can tell an official enquiry to go fúck themselves. That's dangerous territory.

Shatter himself, in his letter of resignation, says that Guerin says that GSOC asked for certain assurances, and that Guerin stated that he believed their request was not unreasonable.
There is no evidence that GSOC refused to co-operate.

sillyoulfool

bajer101 wrote: »

This is very interesting, and is something that has been glossed over. Why were GSOC reluctant to cooperate with with Guerin? Are GSOC now so full of themselves that they can tell an official enquiry to go fúck themselves. That's dangerous territory.

Where are people getting this GSOC refused to co-operate from?
The only excerpt of the Guerin report in the public domain is the references to it in Shatters letter of resignation which quotes Guerin as saying that GSOC asked for more time to provide documents due to concerns they had , and that under the circumstances he (Guerin) considered their concerns to be "not unreasonable".
That is hardly refusing to co-operate.

ectoraige

My reading of it is that is is actually an attempt by Shatter to undermine the report by raising questions concerning it's thouroughness. It appears that Guerin never actually received the GSOC documents due to the eight-week deadline imposed on him to report.

From Shatter's letter, Guerin was well into the final drafting stage before GSOC raised their concerns about providing documentation. It seems they were willing to share everything, but needed assurances which Guerin felt were "not unreasonable". However, it's suggested that Guerin did not follow up on this, presumably as there was no longer time to review it all within the timeframe.

So it was a parting salvo aimed at Guerin, rather than GSOC.

expectationlost

ectoraige wrote: »

My reading of it is that is is actually an attempt by Shatter to undermine the report by raising questions concerning it's thouroughness. It appears that Guerin never actually received the GSOC documents due to the eight-week deadline imposed on him to report.

From Shatter's letter, Guerin was well into the final drafting stage before GSOC raised their concerns about providing documentation. It seems they were willing to share everything, but needed assurances which Guerin felt were "not unreasonable". However, it's suggested that Guerin did not follow up on this, presumably as there was no longer time to review it all within the timeframe.

So it was a parting salvo aimed at Guerin, rather than GSOC.

twice in the Dail Kenny said GSOC did not co-operate, he's doing a Shatter/Callinan on GSOC

he also said if GSOC had adequately investigated things we wouldn't have needed the reports.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-05-07a.131&s=gsoc#g169

Muahahaha

So Frances Fitzgerald is the new minister for Justice. I'm not too sure about this, I get the impression that she is a bit too naive for this role at this time, I think senior Gardai in the Park will run rings around her. Time will tell and I hope I'm wrong because AGS has been in dire need of reform and it didn't happen after the Donegal scandals and really this opportunity now needs to be fully used.

Who she appoints as the new Commissioner will tell us whether she is cut out for the job. If she lets Noirin OSullivan have it then she will be doing the easiest thing and not upsetting senior management in the Park. The old guard will be maintained and most likely any reforms introduced will be watered down or ignored. If she goes outside of the Gardai and recruits an international candidate with experience of reforming police services (Nuala o Loan could be perfect here) then that will send a clear signal, not only to senior Gardai in the Park but to the force as a whole, that her tenure is going to be one of her way or the highway. I hope she has the guts for a battle because if she does her job right then there are going to be a lot of them ahead.

hatrickpatrick

Regarding GSOC, if any of us here as members of the public made a complaint against a Garda, I think I can speak for everyone when I say we'd want iron clad assurances on data protection (something which of course Shatter doesn't seem to rate very highly). I'd imagine GSOC asked Guerin to give assurances about who the information would be released to, what redactions there would be in terms of identifying the complainants, etc, and as the report is going to be published, he was unable to satisfy those concerns.

Given the bullying and harassment that Sgt McCabe has suffered as a result of being a "rat" as some of his colleagues so maturely branded him, just imagine the kind of harassment a member of the public might be subjected to if those same rotten apples discovered the identities of those who made complaints?

ectoraige

expectationlost wrote: »

twice in the Dail Kenny said GSOC did not co-operate, he's doing a Shatter/Callinan on GSOC

he also said if GSOC had adequately investigated things we wouldn't have needed the reports.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-05-07a.131&s=gsoc#g169

You're quite right, which is interesting as nowhere does Shatter come to the conclusion that GSOC didn't co-operate, it is Enda Kenny himself making the accusation.

Shatter seemed to be raising the incompleteness of the report on the basis that:

1. Guerin failed to agree reasonable safeguards with GSOC to view the documents, and hence did not view them;
2. Guerin failed to interview Shatter despite the possibility falling under the Terms of Reference.

Shatter did not say GSOC refused to cooperate, but Enda Kenny stood up in Dáil Eireann and made a direct claim that "GSOC did not co-operate with Mr. Guerin", without presenting any evidence to back this up. Given that we've already had a Garda Commissioner and a Minister for Justice resign, it seems foolish for An Taoiseach to make such claims without any evidence. Perhaps Enda Kenny needs to be added to the thread title?

Banjo String

A new whistleblower has come forward.

Alleging the gards making false arrests and robbing files from pulse ref heroin dealing.

Ming named whistleblower in the Dail this afternoon.

My name is URL

Banjo String wrote: »

Ming named whistleblower in the Dail this afternoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnCqDwW9A4k

Very serious allegations

expectationlost

ectoraige wrote: »

You're quite right, which is interesting as nowhere does Shatter come to the conclusion that GSOC didn't co-operate, it is Enda Kenny himself making the accusation.

Shatter seemed to be raising the incompleteness of the report on the basis that:

1. Guerin failed to agree reasonable safeguards with GSOC to view the documents, and hence did not view them;
2. Guerin failed to interview Shatter despite the possibility falling under the Terms of Reference.

Shatter did not say GSOC refused to cooperate, but Enda Kenny stood up in Dáil Eireann and made a direct claim that "GSOC did not co-operate with Mr. Guerin", without presenting any evidence to back this up. Given that we've already had a Garda Commissioner and a Minister for Justice resign, it seems foolish for An Taoiseach to make such claims without any evidence. Perhaps Enda Kenny needs to be added to the thread title?

it actually looks enda kenny was using the stuff that shatter had in his letter for his own ends

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-05-07a.131#g145
Kenny I have received a letter from the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, setting out the background and his reasons for making the decision he has made. The Minister has made his decision with a great degree of dignity. This is not a case of a Minister having been involved in anything underhand, illegal or scams of any description. It is a testament to the extent of the exceptional work ethic the Minister showed right across the entire spectrum of the justice brief that the report comes to the conclusion that there was inadequate investigation and analysis of the issues raised by Sergeant McCabe by a variety of agencies. I point out that GSOC did not co-operate with Mr. Guerin. I point out that Mr. Guerin did not speak to the Minister. I point out that the report recommends that there be a comprehensive commission of investigation into the matters raised as the subject of the issues by Sergeant McCabe.
The Minister, in his letter, thanks all of the personnel involved in the work in which he was involved.

he say it while describing content of shatters letter

expectationlost

for good or bad I reckon GSOC chair simon o'brien will be back in wales permanently soon, he could be let go or the hole thing is going reformulated anyway

brooke 2

My name is URL wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnCqDwW9A4k

Very serious allegations

Well, it is good to see the Independents finally getting some respect from the government for their work towards justice.

hatrickpatrick

expectationlost wrote: »

for good or bad I reckon GSOC chair simon o'brien will be back in wales permanently soon, he could be let go or thew hole thing is going reformulated anyway

What exactly has he done to deserve that? He's faced an all out assault from government from trying to ensure data protection in terms of finding out if the office was being bugged, and now again he's being bashed for trying to ensure data protection in the releasing of confidential files with potentially nasty reprisals for complainants should their names or identifying information reach those who are being complained against.

I'd be far more concerned if GSOC had handed over such files without any such preconditions or assurances.

_Kaiser_

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

What exactly has he done to deserve that? He's faced an all out assault from government from trying to ensure data protection in terms of finding out if the office was being bugged, and now again he's being bashed for trying to ensure data protection in the releasing of confidential files with potentially nasty reprisals for complainants should their names or identifying information reach those who are being complained against.

I'd be far more concerned if GSOC had handed over such files without any such preconditions or assurances.

That's exactly why he could be let go. The stuff that's coming out in the last few months is not only shocking in itself but shows just how deep and wide the rot goes in our system.

Busted Flat.

I noticed on the news last night, there was no sneering or smart remarks coming from the Government side of the house.
Is this a new beginning for the government, have they finally been forced to have some respect for the house. Or are they in shock with yesterdays development's. We will have to wait and see.

hatrickpatrick

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

That's exactly why he could be let go. The stuff that's coming out in the last few months is not only shocking in itself but shows just how deep and wide the rot goes in our system.

And GSOC has been fighting a losing battle to try and deal with that rot. Whether or not their offices were being bugged, the fact that they would suspect so strongly that they were, indicates that they feel they have been repeatedly obstructed by senior Gardai in the course of trying to clean out the aforementioned rot.
How does any of that point to Simon O'Brien needing to go? It's not his fault if GSOC are being continuously obstructed and the government can't be arsed to give them a proper legislative basis on which to cut through the bullsh!t.

_Kaiser_

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And GSOC has been fighting a losing battle to try and deal with that rot. Whether or not their offices were being bugged, the fact that they would suspect so strongly that they were, indicates that they feel they have been repeatedly obstructed by senior Gardai in the course of trying to clean out the aforementioned rot.
How does any of that point to Simon O'Brien needing to go? It's not his fault if GSOC are being continuously obstructed and the government can't be arsed to give them a proper legislative basis on which to cut through the bullsh!t.

You're not getting what I'm saying

It's precisely because he's trying to do a decent job that he could go - we've already seen those at top don't like their dirty laundry coming out and will do everything they can to prevent or discredit anyone who thinks otherwise.

curioser

Muahahaha wrote: »

So Frances Fitzgerald is the new minister for Justice. I'm not too sure about this, I get the impression that she is a bit too naive for this role at this time, I think senior Gardai in the Park will run rings around her. Time will tell and I hope I'm wrong because AGS has been in dire need of reform and it didn't happen after the Donegal scandals and really this opportunity now needs to be fully used.

Who she appoints as the new Commissioner will tell us whether she is cut out for the job. If she lets Noirin OSullivan have it then she will be doing the easiest thing and not upsetting senior management in the Park. The old guard will be maintained and most likely any reforms introduced will be watered down or ignored. If she goes outside of the Gardai and recruits an international candidate with experience of reforming police services (Nuala o Loan could be perfect here) then that will send a clear signal, not only to senior Gardai in the Park but to the force as a whole, that her tenure is going to be one of her way or the highway. I hope she has the guts for a battle because if she does her job right then there are going to be a lot of them ahead.

Can see Paddy Power suspending betting on the next Garda Commissioner, interviews to be conducted by Frances Fitzgerald, "And your name is?" "NOIRIN O'Sullivan, Minister" "Ah, a woman, the job is yours."

Slick50

Busted Flat. wrote: »

I noticed on the news last night, there was no sneering or smart remarks coming from the Government side of the house.
Is this a new beginning for the government, have they finally been forced to have some respect for the house. Or are they in shock with yesterdays development's. We will have to wait and see.

I guess we didn't have to wait too long for this to be answered. Mary Lou was livid with Ruari Quinns sniggering this afternoon, accompanied by much merriment from his cohorts.

Busted Flat.

Slick50 wrote: »

I guess we didn't have to wait too long for this to be answered. Mary Lou was livid with Ruari Quinns sniggering this afternoon, accompanied by much merriment from his cohorts.

It shows you what Ruari is bringing to the classrooms sad person when he can insult people and expect students to respect their teachers. What would you expect from the WP/DL/LP.

gizmo555

Muahahaha wrote: »

So Frances Fitzgerald is the new minister for Justice. I'm not too sure about this, I get the impression that she is a bit too naive for this role at this time, I think senior Gardai in the Park will run rings around her.

She's been singularly unimpressive as Minister for Children- in particular, she unashamedly spoofed and blustered her way through the so-called "Children's Rights" referendum.

Inspector Coptoor

So, Shatter resigned as Minister for Justice.

Is he still a TD?

How is one position untenable and the other one isn't?

It's a ridiculous situation

Busted Flat.

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

So, Shatter resigned as Minister for Justice.

Is he still a TD?

How is one position untenable and the other one isn't?

It's a ridiculous situation

AAh gee, welcome to the republic of corruption, what a place.

curioser

gizmo555 wrote: »

She's been singularly unimpressive as Minister for Children- in particular, she unashamedly spoofed and blustered her way through the so-called "Children's Rights" referendum.

She was also found by the Sureme Court to have breached the "McKenna principles" in funding a website that was not fair, equal or impartial in trying to have the referendum passed. She would surely have been gone from the Cabinet in November 2012 (possibly along with the Attorney General) for this had not the Irish Times intervened with the Savita Halapanavar story that, along with its aftermath, proceeded to dominate the news for months therafter.

Muahahaha

Also don't forget that she lost elections in Dublin mid west is both 2002 and 2007. Enda threw her a bone and allowed her to run for the Seanad, otherwise her political career was dead in the water. Her attempt to become a TD was rejected twice by thousands of people in Dublin mid west but somehow Enda thinks she's good enough to be a Minister for Justice ? I'm predicting that Fitzgerald will be the new Calamity Coughlan, might even out do her.