Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

Phoebas

Muahahaha wrote: »

Her attempt to become a TD was rejected twice by thousands of people in Dublin mid west but somehow Enda thinks she's good enough to be a Minister for Justice ?

Her attempt to become a TD was accepted at the last election when the people in Dublin mid west were asked to elect a TD for the current Dáil.
She came in second of four candidates elected - she is a clear choice of TD from the people of Dublin Mid West.

Muahahaha

I take your point but my point is that the voters of Dublin mid west judged her to be unfit for office as a TD on two occasions. As a TD she was a reject, there's no getting beyond that. I'm simply making the point that if she hadn't been such good friends with Enda who enabled her Seanad run then her political career would have been dead in the water. Enda threw her a lifeline, a lifeline that few other candidates who failed to get elected on two separate occasions would rarely get. It wasn't her ability that got her to where she is today (because if it was then why didn't her constituents recognise it and elect her?). Her political career trundled on because she curried favour with the leader of the party.

As for the 2011 election well I don't think it was that hard for anyone standing for Fine Gael or Labour to get elected after the damage FF and the Greens had done. The huge FG/Lab Dail majority is testament to that, Fitzgerald didn't achieve anything of substance between 2007-11, it was just that circumstances changed and she was in the right place at the right time. If the boom had of continued then you'd never have heard from her again.

Muahahaha

Just copped a story from a few days ago saying that a top Garda Derek Byrne has been short listed along with two other candidates for the Chief Constables job in the PSNI, which comes with a healthy salary of £195,000.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/top-garda-derek-byrne-in-running-to-head-the-psni-30246010.html

Would this be the same Derek Byrne, Assistant Commissioner who allegedly assaulted Garda Maurice McCabe in a hotel room after he refused to surrender two boxes of evidence of Garda malpractice ?
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/02/24/the-thin-blue-timeline/

gizmo555

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just copped a story from a few days ago saying that a top Garda Derek Byrne has been short listed along with two other candidates for the Chief Constables job in the PSNI, which comes with a healthy salary of £195,000.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/top-garda-derek-byrne-in-running-to-head-the-psni-30246010.html

Would this be the same Derek Byrne, Assistant Commissioner who allegedly assaulted Garda Maurice McCabe in a hotel room after he refused to surrender two boxes of evidence of Garda malpractice ?
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/02/24/the-thin-blue-timeline/

It would. You'd have to think this won't help his chances, then again unlike another candidate, Cressida Dick, he's never been involved in the summary execution of an innocent civilian.

hatrickpatrick

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You're not getting what I'm saying

It's precisely because he's trying to do a decent job that he could go - we've already seen those at top don't like their dirty laundry coming out and will do everything they can to prevent or discredit anyone who thinks otherwise.

My apologies, I misread your last post as saying "That's why he should be let go", implying you would support such a firing. My bad.

Sierra Oscar

The Guerin report has been published.

Government Publishes Guerin Report

The Government has today published the Report by Mr Sean Guerin SC on a Review of the Action Taken by An Garda Síochána Pertaining to Certain Allegations Made by Sergeant Maurice McCabe.

The Government will give careful consideration to the contents of the report and it will be discussed at the Government meeting next week.

My name is URL

Anyone know the relevant pages which led to Shatter's resignation? It was mentioned somewhere the other day but I can't find a link.

gizmo555

My name is URL wrote: »

Anyone know the relevant pages which led to Shatter's resignation? It was mentioned somewhere the other day but I can't find a link.

Chapter 19 seems to be the main part, and was one of the chapters referred to by Shatter in his resignation letter. There's a lot to it, but in essence it sets out that Guerin had been unable to find any evidence of Shatter fulfilling his statutory duty to investigate complaints made by Sgt McCabe to the Confidential Recipient, beyond referring them to Commissioner Callinan for his comment.

[EDIT: And of course, as Brian Dowling just pointed out on RTE, Callinan himself was the subject of a number of Sgt McCabe's complaints.]

gizmo555

Direct quote from para. 19.98:

. . . the Minister's response to the Confidential Recipient included express reference to the Commisioner's having advised the Minister of the findings of the internal investigation. In effect, the process of determining Sergeant McCabe's complaints went no further than the Minister receiving and acting upon the advice of the person who was the subject of the complaint.

Muahahaha

Sounds pretty damning stuff but nothing most of is here didn't already know. It was obvious that the O'Mahoney investigation was nothing more than a whitewash and more circling the wagons.

What I don't get about this whole debacle is that the vast majority of what went on in the Gardai happened under FF and on Dermot Ahern's watch. If Alan Shatrer was as clever as some people say he is he could have been making political capital out of reforming the Gardai for at least the next 3 years. All he had to do was back the whistleblowers (or at least take them seriously) and he could have spent the next few years setting up inquiries into the Gardai, setting up an independent authority, writing new legislation to facilitate it, etc, etc and all the while blaming the whole mess on FF and Dermot Ahern. Shatter could have emerged from this a hero, he could have reformed the Gardai and gotten enormous respect from the public for doing so. But instead he chose to ignore the whistleblowers and was complicit in their silencing.

The only heros to come out of all this are Maurice McCabe and John Wilson. Shatter has his chance to cover himself in glory and inflict more wounds on FF and he blew it big time.

K.Flyer

So it goes to prove that Fine Geal and Fianna Fail are no better or worse than each other when it comes down to it.
Its about time that someone blew it out of the water and into the public domain to show them all up for what they really are.
And from listening to the various radio commentators today it is starting to sound that Gda McCabe is due a serious apology from the Dept of Justice.

Muahahaha

gizmo555 wrote: »

It would. You'd have to think this won't help his chances, then again unlike another candidate, Cressida Dick, he's never been involved in the summary execution of an innocent civilian.

Wow I never knew she led the unit that executed Jean Charles de Menezies. In light of that Derek Byrne looks like an angel in comparison. Either way the last person the PSNI need for their top job is someone who shoots first and asks questions later which would seem to describe both Derek Byrne and Cressida Dick. The PSNI needs a level head to police both communities equally, the actions of those two candidates would suggest that they are panickers and not the type of people you want commanding a large armed force who face regular riots during the marching season and other flash points.

Anyway what an unfortunate name Cressida has. If she gets the PSNI job she'll be referred to as Chief Constable Dick on the news, I'm not sure how newsreaders are going to say that with a serious face on !

Mr.Micro

K.Flyer wrote: »

So it goes to prove that Fine Geal and Fianna Fail are no better or worse than each other when it comes down to it.
Its about time that someone blew it out of the water and into the public domain to show them all up for what they really are.
And from listening to the various radio commentators today it is starting to sound that Gda McCabe is due a serious apology from the Dept of Justice.

Attack is the first form of defence. Shatter and An Garda Siochana were not going to have their cozy practices and operations upended. Hence the attack on the integrity on any whistleblowers. It nearly worked as well. This has been the attitude of previous administrations as well. There needs to be a massive overhaul of the way an Garda operate and the Dept of Justice. Clarify their duty to the citizens and state, as clearly they do not know, or care. So far, it looks like it is a boys club, do as they like, accountable to no one. Ministers may come and go but the rot stays.

mickdw

Why is Enda Kenny dragging himself further into the mess by still attempting to piss all over GSOC. There must be further explosive stuff to come that he is trying to cover off.
It's quite funny at this stage looking back at where the gsoc bugging sorry broke that shatter, Kenny and callinan attempted to take the higher ground ordering o brien in to explain himself. I think he will be the last man standing and rightly so it would appear

charlie14

The heading on this post is "Miniser Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace".
Fair to say that`s exactly what has happened. Time to move on lads and lassies.

_Kaiser_

charlie14 wrote: »

The heading on this post is "Miniser Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace".
Fair to say that`s exactly what has happened. Time to move on lads and lassies.

Unfortunately it seems the circumstances that prompted their reluctant, begrudging resignations are only the tip of the ice berg.

It'll be a long time before the fallout moves on IMO especially given the latest allegations (which I'd fully believe myself based on my experiences with a certain Northside Dublin station over the years) and the luke-warm/business as usual reaction to Fitzgerald's appointment by those NOT in AGS/government.

Slick50

Phoebas wrote: »

She came in second of four candidates elected - she is a clear choice of TD from the people of Dublin Mid West.

Yes, she is to be congratulated on such an achievement in the wake of FF's destruction of our economy.

gizmo555 wrote: »

It would. You'd have to think this won't help his chances, then again unlike another candidate, Cressida Dick, he's never been involved in the summary execution of an innocent civilian.

It doesn't seem to have done her career much harm either.

Muahahaha

The headlines in the Saturday newspapers make for damning reading for Shatter and FG at large.
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/05/09/de-saturday-papers-58/

It's kinda funny to see the Indo coming out with their headline 'Justice Denied' given how only a few short weeks ago Paul Williams was doing everything he could to blame GSOC for letting themselves be bugged. The contents of the Cooke report into the GSOC bugging should be very interesting and will likely leave Paul Williams with egg all over his face. David Davin Power didn't cover himself in glory either when he called the bugging episode nothing more than "a bottle of smoke" and also asked "who sexed up the dossier?" and indicated that Simon oBrien had a lot of explaining to do if he were to save his job, Davin Power used the national broadcaster to engage in victim blaming, just like Enda Kenny and Alan Shatter had done as soon as the scandal broke. All the while Paul Reynolds was acting as an unofficial mouthpiece for Garda management in the Park.

The only media organisation to come out of this well is the Irish Examiner and Mick Clifford in particular. It seems the Examiner are engaging with something the Indo and Times have long since forgotten - proper investigative journalism and holding the government of the day to account, kudos to them.

expectationlost

here GSOC response http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/mediaroom/20140509PR.htm one point they make is that they can't investigate complaints from gardai

gizmo555

RTE is reporting that Sgt McCabe's full access to the PULSE computer system has at last been restored.

_Kaiser_

gizmo555 wrote: »

RTE is reporting that Sgt McCabe's full access to the PULSE computer system has at last been restored.

I wonder has IT put a watch on his account though?

tayto lover

They can change any position they want in the Justice Dept and Garda BUT until political appointments stop and people are promoted on ability instead of which party they support then things will not change too much.

Garda members and Judges should be independently appointed.

Also I am led to believe that a lot of the problems in the Garda since 207 have been caused by there being too many retirements of experienced personnel caused by the down-turn in the economy. This has left a younger Garda force with little direction and lacking in know-how who seem to be bluffing their way through investigations.

Not good enough.

Busted Flat.

tayto lover wrote: »

They can change any position they want in the Justice Dept and Garda BUT until political appointments stop and people are promoted on ability instead of which party they support then things will not change too much.

Garda members and Judges should be independently appointed.

Also I am led to believe that a lot of the problems in the Garda since 207 have been caused by there being too many retirements of experienced personnel caused by the down-turn in the economy. This has left a younger Garda force with little direction and lacking in know-how who seem to be bluffing their way through investigations.

Not good enough.

The rot is at the top and always has been, there will be no improvement in the organization till the top echelons are removed and a outside Commissioner appointed and allowed to appoint his new commanders at the top.

tayto lover

Busted Flat. wrote: »

The rot is at the top and always has been, there will be no improvement in the organization till the top echelons are removed and a outside Commissioner appointed and allowed to appoint his new commanders at the top.

I wouldn't allow the Commissioner to hand-pick his lieutenants either.
They should be independently picked by a proper selection board.
Too many like-minded people can lead to disaster. You need people of all views to provide balance.

Busted Flat.

tayto lover wrote: »

I wouldn't allow the Commissioner to hand-pick his lieutenants either.
They should be independently picked by a proper selection board.
Too many like-minded people can lead to disaster. You need people of all views to provide balance.

To clean this mess up, you need a new Commissioner that has no contact with the force, and be allowed to bring in his own team to handle it. Give him a time limit to sort it out.

tayto lover

Varadkar now bandwagoning again.
Why was he so silent in the past?

tiredofthis

tayto lover wrote: »

Varadkar now bandwagoning again.
Why was he so silent in the past?

He did speak up for the whistleblowers before they were vindicated by the Garda Inspectorate Report. It's true he said nothing in public about Minister Shatter's treatment of them.

tayto lover

tiredofthis wrote: »

He did speak up for the whistleblowers before they were vindicate by the Garda Inspectorate Report. It's true he said nothing in public about Minister Shatter's treatment of them.

He was happy with the status quo before any of this broke. Now he wants to be seen as one of the good guys in order to further his career i'd say.
Cute hoorism.

bajer101

If we cast our minds back a few weeks we may recall that the government attempted to kick all of these issues into touch with the announcement that there was a serious issue relating to the taping of phone calls in Garda stations. The more astute observers recognised this for what it was - a smokescreen. Where is this nonsense story now? Where are the all the anticipated appeals? Where are the criminals roaming the streets as a result of this? No one has been released and not one successful appeal. We should not let that little sidebar be forgotten as it is a perfect example of how this administration has tried to hoodwink us all. We pay their wages and they work for us, but they take our money and use it to try and deceive us.

Nothing to see here, move along. GSOC being bugged by AGS! How dare they even hint at that. We'll just stand up in the Dail and shout them down and show them who's in charge. Except that those days are gone. They haven't quite cottoned onto the fact that if you lie, or misquote legislation, you will be caught out in minutes and your lies will be all over social media before your buddies have stopped chuckling in the chamber. They don't get it yet because there is still a large raft of party first neanderthals still willing to put their posters up and canvas for them. But I think the penny may be beginning to drop. The forthcoming elections will be a rude awakening.

charlie14

tayto lover wrote: »

He was happy with the status quo before any of this broke. Now he wants to be seen as one of the good guys in order to further his career i'd say.
Cute hoorism.

Total opportunist, but showed he has a good nose with his remarks on Callinan as to how the wind is blowing with the general public and their feeling on garda winks, nods and favouritism too the chosen few.