Don't marry a Non-EU Spouse if you are poor or disabled

GarIT · 12-02-2014 8:49pm

MadsL wrote: »

What level of work is 'financially stable' in your view. And should the disabled have rights in this matter, even if they are on SW?

IMO financially stable enough to support two people would be a gross income of 25k per year minimum. I feel these limits are generously low, at approximately half that.

Disabled people have equal rights here, if they can financially support somebody they are allowed to, they are not being discriminated against here in any way. What you are looking for is extra rights for disabled people so that they can claim they are able to financially support somebody even if they are not.

Temptamperu · 12-02-2014 8:53pm

Why are you saying everyone who is unemployed is a waster?
Im currently on a disability pension and unemployed (i do volunteer twice a week) and i do all the house work and mind my sisters kid while she works.
Are my a waster?
And what of all the people who lost their job because of corrupt government and banking and now cant get jobs as there are none.
Are they wasters?

What do you do thats so important you can throw around words and accusations?

GarIT · 12-02-2014 8:54pm

MadsL wrote: »

Or because you read my OP incorrectly and cannot acknowledge that.

How is working minimum wage for the past two years "financially unstable" - if someone can put a roof over their heads, they can do it for two, especially if that person no longer has to be a tourist unable to work.

So prohibit the spouse from receiving SW. Simple solution.

How did I read it incorrectly?

There are many more costs to living than putting a roof over your head. If somebody is working on minimum wage and has not been their long enough to to show they are secure in their job they are not financially stable.

So we should allow people into the country they can't support themselves (they weren't cleared for a visa on their own) and cant be supported (their spouse isn't financially stable) and to solve that by not giving them social welfare payments, which leads to people coming into the country and turning to begging or crime because they have no other option.

MadsL · 12-02-2014 8:54pm

GarIT wrote: »

IMO financially stable enough to support two people would be a gross income of 25k per year minimum. I feel these limits are generously low, at approximately half that.

You acknowledge you read the OP incorrectly then I take it. If two people earn minimum age (Irish citizen plus non-EU spouse) They jointly will make €36k a year, way above your threshold. They could be denied SW payments until they make up the stamps like anyone else and I would have no problem with that.

Disabled people have equal rights here, if they can financially support somebody they are allowed to, they are not being discriminated against here in any way. What you are looking for is extra rights for disabled people so that they can claim they are able to financially support somebody even if they are not.

Nope, what I am looking for is an exemption based on the inability physically of disabled people being able to make this requirement.

If you had to do 10 pushups to get a passport, would this be equality?

Days 298 · 12-02-2014 8:57pm

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I find it amazing that people find this acceptable in the same weeks where people are willing to take to social media and the streets to support the concept of marriage equality.
So discrimination is ok if it's towards disabled people who have no ability to affect a change in their earning ability? On the basis of how they were born?
Or it's ok if a person found themselves out of work in a climate where we have mass unenemployment? The last three years have been entirely unrepresentative of a lot of people's work history. A economic climate beyond our control has dictated the employment prospects of a great many people .

This is disgraceful. At its heart is plain old discrimination, it's not different from any other form of marriage discrimination that so many people are rightly outraged about.

The taxpayer doesn't have a duty of supporting spouses. And marriage should not be a way to avoid visa requirements if they are qualified to get work here they can go down the other routes.

The whole point of immigration control is to discriminate who can and can't live here. Without discrimination we may as well remove the concept of visas and open our borders fully. Every country has visa requirements and means testing to ensure the state doesn't have to take money from local citizens to support their living.

retalivity · 12-02-2014 8:58pm

I havent lived permanently in ireland since 2009I moved back with my non-eu wife in november. I havent earned any money in ireland in almost 5 years, but had been on the dole for a couole of weeks before and after i left
She applied for residency and was granted it same day 3 weeks ago. Not a word was asked about my personal or financial situation.

How does that work?

MadsL · 12-02-2014 9:01pm

GarIT wrote: »

How did I read it incorrectly?

Go read your posts again. You spent much of your response telling me how I was incorrect, then when I spelled it out how you read the OP incorrectly, you try to flounce out of the thread. Sheesh.

There are many more costs to living than putting a roof over your head. If somebody is working on minimum wage and has not been their long enough to to show they are secure in their job they are not financially stable.

How long is long? Two years? Because that is still not enough under these rules.

So we should allow people into the country they can't support themselves (they weren't cleared for a visa on their own)

Eh? To get a visa to work in Ireland you need.

A. To be earning more than 30K
B. To do a job that the company says cannot be filled by an EU national.

Far from easy to get.

and cant be supported (their spouse isn't financially stable) and to solve that by not giving them social welfare payments, which leads to people coming into the country and turning to begging or crime because they have no other option.

Hyperbole. Millions are admitted to the US each year on that basis, yet the crime rate for immigrants is significantly below that of citizens.

MadsL · 12-02-2014 9:03pm

retalivity wrote: »

I havent lived permanently in ireland since 2009I moved back with my non-eu wife in november. I havent earned any money in ireland in almost 5 years, but had been on the dole for a couole of weeks before and after i left
She applied for residency and was granted it same day 3 weeks ago. Not a word was asked about my personal or financial situation.

How does that work?

Was your application made prior to Jan 2014? The guidelines have just come in. Under these guidelines she may have been denied.

Also did she apply for a change of status from a tourist visa and is a non-visa required national?

Congrats on her stamp.

retalivity · 12-02-2014 9:06pm

MadsL wrote: »

Was your application made prior to Jan 2014? The guidelines have just come in. Under these guidelines she may have been denied.

Also did she apply for a change of status from a tourist visa and is a non-visa required national?

Congrats on her stamp.

Application was made 3 weeks ago in a garda station, and completed and stamped wihin 30 mins. It was a change of status that was applied for.

MadsL · 12-02-2014 9:09pm

Days 298 wrote: »

The taxpayer doesn't have a duty of supporting spouses.

No one is saying they do.

And marriage should not be a way to avoid visa requirements if they are qualified to get work here they can go down the other routes.

So Irish nationals should only marry people who can qualify to get a job here by themselves?

The whole point of immigration control is to discriminate who can and can't live here. Without discrimination we may as well remove the concept of visas and open our borders fully.

No, the whole point of immigration control is to ensure that people follow legal means of entering the country.

Every country has visa requirements and means testing to ensure the state doesn't have to take money from local citizens to support their living.

Here are the UK requirements which exclude those in receipt of disability-related benefit or carer's allowance.

How much income do I need to have?
You must have an income of at least £18,600.

If you are sponsoring a child as well as a partner you will need an income of at least £22,400.

For each additional child being sponsored you will need an additional income of £2,400. For example, if you are you are bringing 2 children with you to the United Kingdom, you must have and income of £22,400 and £2,400 for the additional child, so a total of £24,800.

You will be required to provide documents to show that you can meet the financial requirement. The way you meet the requirement will be different, depending on whether you are applying from inside or outside the UK.

Exemptions
You will be exempt from the new financial requirement if your sponsor receives a specified disability-related benefit or carer's allowance in the UK. You will need to show that your sponsor can maintain and accommodate you without access to public funds.

MadsL · 12-02-2014 9:10pm

retalivity wrote: »

Application was made 3 weeks ago in a garda station, and completed and stamped wihin 30 mins. It was a change of status that was applied for.

And therefore the income requirement does not apply as she is a non-visa required foreign national.

Go figure and enjoy the bullet you dodged.

Boombastic · 12-02-2014 9:14pm

MadsL wrote: »

No bipolar people should be getting married to foreigners eh?

All bipolar people are coming disability benefit are they?

It insulting to disabled people to assume none them can work, tbh. I know many disabled people who work and are earning above the threshold required.

somuj · 12-02-2014 9:17pm

Someone close this thread please.

MadsL · 12-02-2014 9:18pm

Boombastic wrote: »

All bipolar people are coming disability benefit are they?

It insulting to disabled people to assume none them can work, tbh. I know many disabled people who work and are earning above the threshold required.

Some do claim, and that is my point.

Now go back to showing me which of the statements in my OP which you claim are 'wrong' are in fact wrong.

Any news on that?

MadsL · 12-02-2014 9:19pm

somuj wrote: »

Someone close this thread please.

Err...why?

dj jarvis · 12-02-2014 9:23pm

MadsL wrote: »

Go read your posts again. You spent much of your response telling me how I was incorrect, then when I spelled it out how you read the OP incorrectly, you try to flounce out of the thread. Sheesh.

How long is long? Two years? Because that is still not enough under these rules.

Eh? To get a visa to work in Ireland you need.

A. To be earning more than 30K
B. To do a job that the company says cannot be filled by an EU national.

Far from easy to get.

Hyperbole. Millions are admitted to the US each year on that basis, yet the crime rate for immigrants is significantly below that of citizens.

more non nationals are in Irish prisons than non nationals in US prisons

apx 35% of prisoners in Irish jails are not Irish
apx 4.2% of US prisoners are not American citizens ,

so using your above logic WE SHOULD make it more difficult for people to enter , becasue we attract more criminals than the US .

And like it or not , ANY Irish immigration laws will have been seen and rubber stamped by the EU - if it passes their human rights checks and balances , then its good enough for me.

you are missing the real point in all this - it boils down to the fact that if the person who arrived here had a job and then lost it , the person who is living of disability or on social WOULD NOT be able to support 2 people , all i hear is how hard it is to live in Ireland on one persons social money , and it is , so can you really stand behind 2 people living off ones money ?

MadsL · 12-02-2014 9:29pm

dj jarvis wrote: »

more non nationals are in Irish prisons than non nationals in US prisons

apx 35% of prisoners in Irish jails are not Irish
apx 4.2% of US prisoners are not American citizens ,

Source?

so using your above logic WE SHOULD make it more difficult for people to enter , becasue we attract more criminals than the US .

Possibly, although if we have figures about how many of those are married to Irish citizens perhaps policy should be more lenient on spouse and more difficult for single people? EDIT: You are also referencing less than 1400 people by the way.

And like it or not , ANY Irish immigration laws will have been seen and rubber stamped by the EU - if it passes their human rights checks and balances , then its good enough for me.

This is a guideline. Not a law. It has not yet been challenged in law.

you are missing the real point in all this - it boils down to the fact that if the person whop arrived here had a job and then lost it , the person who is living of disability or on social WOULD NOT be able to support 2 people , all i hear is how hard it is to live in Ireland on one persons social money , and it is , so can you really stand behind 2 people living of ones money ?

Personal choice. Rather than a decision made by a bureaucrat based on a guideline.

dj jarvis · 12-02-2014 9:38pm

MadsL wrote: »

Source?

Possibly, although if we have figures about how many of those are married to Irish citizens perhaps policy should be more lenient on spouse and more difficult for single people?

This is a guideline. Not a law. It has not yet been challenged in law.

Personal choice. Rather than a decision made by a bureaucrat based on a guideline.

here : http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice/135097-irelands-prison-population-non-irish-nationals-analysis.html

and here :http://chartsbin.com/view/8ns

i have also visited other pages and they are within 1 or 2 % of the above figures .

and really , you have not answered the last point i made , your reply to that point is vague
IF the person coming here sponsored loses their job , the person who is already on the bread line , now has to carry another person , this would put undue stress on them , and in the end , the state would most likely step in , and if not the state , then charity's like SVDP , now why should our hard pressed services carry someone else , who in fairness , should never have gotten entry in the first place

I am married to a non Irish person , but a EU citizen and pass port holder , my children are citizens of the country my wife is from , i CAN NOT just arrive to her country and claim benefits or help , even though i am the father of two of its citizens and hold a EU passport , but yet you are saying a NON EU passport holder who may not be able to support themselves in the future should have legal right of entry ?

Annasopra · 12-02-2014 9:39pm

somuj wrote: »

Someone close this thread please.

why?

madrabui · 12-02-2014 9:40pm

MadsL wrote: »

And if I am unable to work as I have a mental illness or I am blind say?

Having a mental illness or a visual impairment does not stop someone working.

Gatling · 12-02-2014 9:42pm

mango salsa wrote: »

why?

a one man/woman rant thread ?

But in all seriousness I can't see where the subject would be discriminatory,

There a massive difference between been actually disabled and someone getting disability payments
Which means somebody who has an illness that could last 12 months or more and prevent them from working

MadsL · 12-02-2014 9:49pm

dj jarvis wrote: »

here : http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice/135097-irelands-prison-population-non-irish-nationals-analysis.html

and here :http://chartsbin.com/view/8ns

Fair enough but your figure of 35% is highly misleading. 11.6% of the prison population is EU, and 2.3% is UK. So 13.9% of your 35% does not require a visa anyway. So 21.i% is the true figure, now since the prison population is only 3,973, you are arguing your point based on a unknown subset of 838 people who are married to an EU citizen, maybe less that 400 at a guess. I suggest that is quite a small group to base policy on.

and really , you have not answered the last point i made , your reply to that point is vague
IF the person coming here sponsored loses their job , the person who is already on the bread line , now has to carry another person , this would put undue stress on them , and in the end , the state would most likely step in , and if not the state , then charity's like SVDP , now why should our hard pressed services carry someone else , who in fairness , should never have gotten entry in the first place

If they lose their job, then are they more able to support themselves without the State using the resources of one person or two?

I am married to a non Irish person , but a EU citizen and pass port holder , my children are citizens of the country my wife is from , i CAN NOT just arrive to her country and claim benefits or help , even though i am the father of two of its citizens and hold a EU passport , but yet you are saying a NON EU passport holder who may not be able to support themselves in the future should have legal right of entry ?

EH? You have the same rights in an EU country as you do here, including claiming benefits. there may be qualification periods but you have the same rights to benefits as a citizen of that country.

MadsL · 12-02-2014 9:52pm

Gatling wrote: »

a one man/woman rant thread ?

If I were the only one posting in support I would agree with you, that's not the case here is it?

But in all seriousness I can't see where the subject would be discriminatory,

There a massive difference between been actually disabled and someone getting disability payments
Which means somebody who has an illness that could last 12 months or more and prevent them from working

If I am disabled and have never worked under these guidelines I cannot marry a non-EEA spouse and have them move to Ireland to live with me.

That seems rather discriminatory to me, does it not?

dj jarvis · 12-02-2014 9:55pm

MadsL wrote: »

Fair enough but your figure of 35% is highly misleading. 11.6% of the prison population is EU, and 2.3% is UK. So 13.9% of your 35% does not require a visa anyway. So 21.i% is the true figure, now since the prison population is only 3,973, you are arguing your point based on a unknown subset of 838 people who are married to an EU citizen, maybe less that 400 at a guess. I suggest that is quite a small group to base policy on.

Mexicans hoping over the fence in Texas don't need a visa either , my point is valid - you were saying that immigrants are less likely to commit crime , in the US maybe , but not here , so your standard does not apply here

If they lose their job, then are they more able to support themselves without the State using the resources of one person or two?

really , they will go from one person with a decent wage and someone on supports , to someone on supports - im no math genius but that does not add up at all - two people can not survive on one persons social money

EH? You have the same rights in an EU country as you do here, including claiming benefits.

No - no i dont , its a fallacy and a fairy tail that a EU citizen can just wander into another EU country and claim benefits and help , there are time limits before you can claim , you would be relying on one persons money for a LONG time , and that would be a stupid situation to put your self into.

** sorry about the format of the text , have no idea what happened here :-) **

Annasopra · 12-02-2014 9:57pm

Gatling wrote: »

a one man/woman rant thread ?

Frankly

A: This isn't ranting, this is talking about real people living real lives
B: The OP isn't the only one interested in this discussion
C: You gave no good reasons for closing the thread

MadsL · 12-02-2014 9:58pm

dj jarvis wrote: »

No - no i dont , its a fallacy and a fairy tail that a EU citizen can just wander into another EU country and claim benefits and help , there are time limits before you can claim , you would be relying on one persons money for a LONG time , and that would be a stupid situation to put your self into.

Sorry, I did edit that above to read, subject to qualification periods, you have the same rights as a citizen.

I see no issue with imposing the same qualification periods on a spouse of an EU national in Ireland.

Why would that create more of an issue? After all no-one means tests EU citizens showing up in Ireland

MadsL · 12-02-2014 10:00pm

Mexicans hoping over the fence in Texas don't need a visa either

Of course they do, that's the point of the fence.

MadsL · 12-02-2014 10:04pm

madrabui wrote: »

Having a mental illness or a visual impairment does not stop someone working.

I am aware of that. Apologies for the un-PC statement. But benefits are claimable in these cases.

dj jarvis · 12-02-2014 10:05pm

MadsL wrote: »

Of course they do, that's the point of the fence.

dont be pedantic , they dont need a visa becasue THEY ARE HOPING OVER THE FENCE - i never said they were legally entering

you were the one that made the point that they would be less likely to commit crime , well jumping the fence is a crime , so before their feet hit the ground they are breaking the law

sorry , i just dont agree with your view point , i think the criteria is fair , and logical , same as most other western nations

we had a lax policy 10 years ago and Ireland had the largest influx of migrants per head of population since WW2 - i think we should be more prudent about who and how we let people in, and i am saying that married to a non national

Gatling · 12-02-2014 10:06pm

MadsL wrote: »

If I were the only one posting in support I would agree with you, that's not the case here is it?

If I am disabled and have never worked under these guidelines I cannot marry a non-EEA spouse and have them move to Ireland to live with me.

That seems rather discriminatory to me, does it not?

I forgot to put a smiley in there somewhere sorry,

But surely if a person only receives €188 pw regardless if it's disability or other which is the sole income to which rent in some cases will be anything from €30 to €70+ pw which would likely increase with a another living with them ,add food and house hold bills ,
Do you then honestly think its fair there then expected to support a non national long term , even if the non national has next to no work and educational background that may be of use to them

Don't marry a Non-EU Spouse if you are poor or disabled

Comments