Dublin GAA Discussion Thread MOD WARNING POST #2944

ProudDUB

Pedant !

How Soon Is Now

Anyone know if there's a Dublin GAA fixtures list for Google calendar?

I normally use ones for other sports on my phone really handy but can't seem to find any GAA ones!

BKWDR

I presume there is no Dublin GAA 2015 thread....

Just looking at the lads playing there on saturday night, i thought the footballers have seriously bulked up. Think Kilkenny has put some serious mass on. Also the likes of Brogan and Flynn. They used to be quite slender btu they seem to have a heavier more muscle stature now. Its as if they have all changed their S+C training to bulk up

DoctaDee

BKWDR wrote: »

I presume there is no Dublin GAA 2015 thread....

The post count doesn't really support a discussion thread year on year .. so I've edited the thread title

CurryFlavoured

BKWDR wrote: »

I presume there is no Dublin GAA 2015 thread....

Just looking at the lads playing there on saturday night, i thought the footballers have seriously bulked up. Think Kilkenny has put some serious mass on. Also the likes of Brogan and Flynn. They used to be quite slender btu they seem to have a heavier more muscle stature now. Its as if they have all changed their S+C training to bulk up

Funnily enough I thought Bernard looked fairly light, he's never been massive though.

DoctaDee

Well a thoroughly unsatisfactory night last Saturday - it was an eye sore of a game that we deserved nothing from,and yes we do have major problems with the mass defence.

I don't know why those reporting on the match were watering down the extent of Tyrones defending to having 13 men behind the ball - the majority of the game they played with all 15 inside their own 45. 27 players occupying one third of a pitch is asking a lot of the football gods to conjure an edifying spectacle.

ProudDUB

BKWDR wrote: »

I presume there is no Dublin GAA 2015 thread....

Just looking at the lads playing there on saturday night, i thought the footballers have seriously bulked up. Think Kilkenny has put some serious mass on. Also the likes of Brogan and Flynn. They used to be quite slender btu they seem to have a heavier more muscle stature now. Its as if they have all changed their S+C training to bulk up

I don't think anyone looks particularly bulked up, other than Jack Mc. He looks like he is carrying a few extra lbs of muscle. (Thankfully, it doesn't seem to have affected his speed.) Everyone else looks pretty much the same to me & I have seem most of them warm up right in front of me at games. Cian O'Sullivans new hipster beard makes my eyes bleed, but that's probably something for another thread.

DoctaDee

ProudDUB wrote: »

I don't think anyone looks particularly bulked up, other than Jack Mc. He looks like he is carrying a few extra lbs of muscle. (Thankfully, it doesn't seem to have affected his speed.) Everyone else looks pretty much the same to me & I have seem most of them warm up right in front of me at games. Cian O'Sullivans new hipster beard makes my eyes bleed, but that's probably something for another thread.

I thought Paddy Andrews looked physically imposing during the warm up and pre game thought he would cause problems around the square if left to play as a proper full forward, but all change once the whistle blew with him roving outfield and Kilkenny dropping in with Bernard. Positions mean nothing when playing against the blanket defence - Culligan spent as much time up on their 45 as he did in defence.

The fact that meetings between the 2 teams have been by and large notoriously tight affairs (2013 Final & last year in Healy Park) should in reality have put a marker down for what to expect on Saturday. Eugene McGee never one to miss an opportunity to have a dig at Dublins expense, provides this as his supercilious narrative.

"It is time for Dublin players to start learning new tricks." ... jaysis Eugene how much more vague can you be ?

BKWDR

How is everyone feeling with the team as it stands (read: as gavin is playing them).

EDIT: I was listing certain players and googled the squad who took to the field against killarney and came across this link from yesterday , answers mostly what i was about to talk about really...

http://www.the42.ie/diarmuid-connolly-back-for-dublins-clash-mayo-1982532-Mar2015/

Think Gavin Burke would be a welcome asset, he played very well in the run up to the Leinster victory.

“We are not looking for a settled team,” said Gavin. “Most teams that we are playing are settled. We are trying new things, tactically we are trying new things. Some are working, some don’t.
“This is part of the process and we want to give players a chance to stake a claim — not only in the starting 15, or our squad of 26, but on the panel itself.
“To do that there is a process you have to go through and you have to give each player a fair chance. It can be a rough sea but we are going to hold our course and we are very much in control of where we want to go.”

In Jim we trust i suppose!

CurryFlavoured

Tbh I like using the league as a way of finding out new things. I'm not enjoying watching us right now and momentum is always great, it has served us well in recent years but this team needs more variety in terms of game plan and a few positions. Right now I think we're doing that and if it means we finish mid table then so be it. I just hope that in our search for a few new things we actually achieve something - a plan B and another midfielder would be great!

BKWDR

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

A plan B and another midfielder would be great!

Yeah i feel the same. I would like to see MDMA back sooner rather than later. What i saw of him wasn't great in the game in Meath. Felt his fitness wasn't there at all (i know he was injured). Good targets for Cluxton need to be found.

You feel that there would be something a little bit more worked on from the defeat against Donegal in terms of how to play against the blanket style but it just wasn't evident at all. I remember they claimed they had broken the blanket defence against Monaghan in the 1/4 final but that wasn't a great display either.

The likes of Brady played well but wonder will he see championship ball at all?

corny

I don't purport to be an expert on Tyrone football but thats the first time i've seen them defend like that. Don't get me wrong they've been getting men behind the ball for a good while now but this was different. It was an exact, and i mean exact, replica of what Donegal do. The two men tasked with screening sprinted into position when they lost the ball, they shifted left and right like Donegal, they even tried to take turns breaking from defence like Donegal. Its only a matter of time before every team follows suit imo. Its the logical progression because this stuff makes average teams competitive and good teams AI winners.

The point of this? I'm astonished no team in the country has come up with or even tried a plan to counter these teams. Even the discourse in the media focuses on the tragedy of the spectacle rather than what can be done to beat them playing like this.

We definitely did nothing different against them. Rushed our shots, forwards running out to the corner flags having no impact on the game, defenders attacking and chasing back but not knowing who to pick up. I genuinely fear we'll get a repeat dose of what happened last summer if things don't change for Dublin.

I'd love to manage a team against this stuff because i've loads of ideas to combat it. Most of its wild, outlandish, radical stuff though.:p

Kavrocks

corny wrote: »

I'd love to manage a team against this stuff because i've loads of ideas to combat it. Most of its wild, outlandish, radical stuff though.:p

I'd love to hear those ideas.

ThunbergsAreGo

I would love to see Dublin just keep the ball and be happy going nowhere against teams like this. There is a tendency to force it sometimes. I dont think any team would like to play against a team who keep the ball for 5 minutes

Pierce_1991

naughtb4 wrote: »

I would love to see Dublin just keep the ball and be happy going nowhere against teams like this. There is a tendency to force it sometimes. I dont think any team would like to play against a team who keep the ball for 5 minutes

Yeah, I know we had to force it a bit towards the end on Saturday, but even when we have a lead in these types of games we're constantly trying to force the issue. Against Donegal last year we opened up with a few cracking points a led by a couple of points after twenty odd minutes. Should have played a bit of keep ball.

davegrohl48

Two big mistakes Dublin made:
1. Going short with most of their kickouts. You need to mix it up with short/mid/long.
2. Carrying too much from 45 to 45
There was one other problem but it was more player availability problem. There were no left footed players to come on quick loops from the right side of the pitch. The right footed players cannot shoot running from right to left which was a common occurrence on the night.
A common mistake is middle eight players being too careful n slow with their long pass inside. The ball has to go in quick and drill through the ball.
If yer lofting in passes getting under the ball every extra tenth of a second that ball hangs in the air the defence reduce the available space.
I agree with poster above. The blanket is a fascinating problem to take on.
You also need available target men who can gather n give those quick drilled balls. Dublin were not badly served in that regard but they simply were not letting the ball in. Generally they tried to work it in.

corny

Kavrocks wrote: »

I'd love to hear those ideas.

Hoping someone would ask.:D

naughtb4 wrote: »

I would love to see Dublin just keep the ball and be happy going nowhere against teams like this. There is a tendency to force it sometimes. I dont think any team would like to play against a team who keep the ball for 5 minutes

Great minds naughtb4.

I can't get why the crowd gets so agitated when Dublin don't get from A to B at the speed of light. Playing it from one wing to the other for a few minutes would serve two purposes as i see it. One: if you ever watch them Donegal move as a team from side to side. Its bloody hard work and they'd working against the ball not Dublin players. Two: you'd be playing the game on your terms and not theirs for a change. Thats an often underestimated factor in sport imo.

Another one would be, as i mentioned before, don't play with men inside. You're removing 5 or 6 of their defenders from the game which gives you a big numerical advantage on the 40. You should break through and for the men inside marking space, defending against men running at you is a lot more difficult than defending against men with their backs to goal. You'd also be a stronger position to win it back should you lose the ball.

Pierce_1991 wrote: »

Yeah, I know we had to force it a bit towards the end on Saturday, but even when we have a lead in these types of games we're constantly trying to force the issue. Against Donegal last year we opened up with a few cracking points a led by a couple of points after twenty odd minutes. Should have played a bit of keep ball.

I'd literally get 1-0 in front against Donegal and play keep ball with Cluxton and the three defenders for 60 odd minutes. They'd have to come out eventually right?

davegrohl48

corny wrote: »

Hoping someone would ask.:D



Great minds naughtb4.

I can't get why the crowd gets so agitated when Dublin don't get from A to B at the speed of light. Playing it from one wing to the other for a few minutes would serve two purposes as i see it. One: if you ever watch them Donegal move as a team from side to side. Its bloody hard work and they'd working against the ball not Dublin players. Two: you'd be playing the game on your terms and not theirs for a change. Thats an often underestimated factor in sport imo.

Another one would be, as i mentioned before, don't play with men inside. You're removing 5 or 6 of their defenders from the game which gives you a big numerical advantage on the 40. You should break through and for the men inside marking space, defending against men running at you is a lot more difficult than defending against men with their backs to goal. You'd also be a stronger position to win it back should you lose the ball.



I'd literally get 1-0 in front against Donegal and play keep ball with Cluxton and the three defenders for 60 odd minutes. They'd have to come out eventually right?

If you look back at Dublin - Tyrone a deep net of around 8 defenders met all Dublin attacks on the 45. Trying to outnumber there is not easy. It's also not a wall of defenders, it's deep enough to cover any run.
In behind is at least man to man coverage with a sweeper or often a sweeper and an extra player whose job is to turn 1 v 1 out wide into 2 v 1. A delay in the corner is quickly 3 v 1.
Playing the ball side to side you're not scoring but is useful late in the second half to run the clock down if you're leading.
Three main forms of attack I see:
1. Traditional target man who can gather n give.
2. Loop runners left n right who come onto passes at pace n shoot quickly or pass quickly to a no solo shooter of the calibre of Brogan/Rock.
3. Dual burst through runners coming onto posession on the 35. Think Cian OSullivan or McMananamon. You can get tap over frees with this sometimes. Needs to be more than one option open.
Players trying to work their own scores outside of those three options is difficult. The defence has you read and is well set before the shot.

ThunbergsAreGo

Corny, I would actually love to see us beat Donegal 2-0 with 90% possession.

A ****e spectacle no doubt, but it would be hilarious.

And you are right the game last year agaisnt Donegal is a case in point, we were 4 points up at one stage, keep the ball and we dont lose

Kavrocks

corny wrote: »

Playing it from one wing to the other for a few minutes would serve two purposes as i see it. ...

Another one would be, as i mentioned before, don't play with men inside. ...

I'd literally get 1-0 in front against Donegal and play keep ball with Cluxton and the three defenders for 60 odd minutes.

When you said you'd loads of ideas to combat the blanket defence I wasn't expecting you to say we should avoid it by keeping the ball within our own 45 and pulling all of our players outside of their 45. Maybe we've different opinions on what 'combatting the blanket defence' means. I was expecting ideas of how to score against it.

I don't see what you hope to achieve by playing around with the ball in your own 45 and how that combats the blanket defence. There is very little scoring threat so long as the ball is outside the 45 that's why teams retreat to the 45 and put up a barrier there. It would also only force teams to push up if they were behind but what is to stop them waiting until the last 5 or 10 mins to push up surprising your players, catching them off guard and knocking over 2 points to win the game?

What benefits are there to removing your inside players? You put more bodies around the 45 crowding it up. If you break through the first wave of defenders there is another wave waiting for you. All they have to do is stand you up or get a perfectly timed hand in. These are two things Donegal are very good at doing and why their blanket defence is so efficient. We also saw glimpses of something similar against Tyrone where instead of dispossessing the player they forced them back out to the 45.

As for getting 1-0 up and keeping the ball isn't this just the blanket defence except this time you don't let your opponent have it?

They are nice ideas, a little out of the box but I don't see how they combat it. You've not described any methods which will actually result in scores against it.

ThunbergsAreGo

The idea is to win against a blanket defence not to score against it

davegrohl48

naughtb4 wrote: »

The idea is to win against a blanket defence not to score against it

The idea is to maximise your probability of winning against the blanket defence. Playing keep ball is a bad tactic unless you are leading significantly with a lot of time gone on the clock.

ThunbergsAreGo

We were 5 points up against Donegal last year. A bit of keep ball would have infuriated them and increased our chances of winning.


Running blindly into groups of defenders doesnt increase your chances of winning

keane2097

Lateral movement of the ball seems to be the key to me. As corny said, the blanket teams try to move wing to wing as a team.

This is difficult to get right for a long time, and even if you do it's slow compared to moving the ball from one wing to the other.

Get the right guy ready for a shot 35 yards out on one wing, work the ball up to the other wing, then get ready to move it across quickly. There will be some room waiting on the far side, you just have to take advantage of it then.

Kavrocks

naughtb4 wrote: »

The idea is to win against a blanket defence not to score against it

How do you win without scoring? 0-0 v 0-0 is a draw.

davegrohl48

Kavrocks wrote: »

How do you win without scoring? 0-0 v 0-0 is a draw.

I'd advise people watch some American football tactics (which I do) to see the mindset of how to get people open long enough to score.
That's what I believe the mindset has to be to beat the blanket. Get people open long enough to shoot. Which requires you to have players capable of implementing (I'll give examples of the perfect players to implement):
- Target men who can gather even under heavy cover (Kieran Donaghy/Aidan OShea)
- Players with pace who can shoot with no solo coming in from the wing (James ODonoghue/Eoin Bradley)
- Players who can come on athletic straight bursts down the middle leaving defenders in their wake (Cian OSullivan/Sean Cavanagh)

Now just like American football you don't take to the pitch hoping for the best or seeing how far talent will bring you. There's no reason given the modern increased time in posession (20 secs, up from 10 secs) that you can't have players picked specifically to be hitting those target men like quarter backs. Again like quarter backs players should be conscious of how catchable, quick their pass is and make sure not to be telegraphing their intentions with obvious things like waving their hands for the ball. A go to man to pass, should be exactly that, the team are all tuned in that the ball needs to get quickly to Player X around midfield who flights the ball 40 yards to Player Y who has runners A and B already coming at full pace with the ball mid flight. Runners A and B don't come on obvious straight runs, very easy to have things like double movements early in their run.

What is stopping this evolving quicker is the conservative nature of coaches who want to keep pass completion and posession security high. But just think how hard it is to stop dual runners coming at speed left and right of a guy like Donaghy or OShea.

Personally I believe Gaelic Football as a game of strategy has most in common with American football. There is a blanket defense set, you can either run the ball (handpass) or throw it over the top (kickpass). The basic offense vs defense shares a lot of similarities.

Soccer doesn't have secure enough posession to learn from. Rugby lacks an element of a forward pass bar the kick from the hand.

corny

davegrohl48 wrote: »

The idea is to maximise your probability of winning against the blanket defence. Playing keep ball is a bad tactic unless you are leading significantly with a lot of time gone on the clock.

That conventional wisdom is true, very true, for most games but what if you're playing a side who point blank refuse to pressure the ball outside their 40?

Take this example. You're up by 5 early in the game (us last year), you win the ball from the kick out, the opposition ignore the ball (Donegal) and run into position in their own half. You play the ball around the the backs (unchallenged) for a few minutes, maybe more. Wouldn't the opposition eventually have to come out and challenge you? Also, isn't that then beating the blanket defence (forcing the opposition to abandon it)? If they retreat again just move the ball back to the goalkeeper!

The above example would be an absolute farce but you'd win.

Ironically it might actually be good for the game long term because you'd imagine on the back of it the GAA would be forced into introducing restrictions on playing with 15 behind the ball. Keep 5 players in the opposition half at all times for example.

ProudDUB

Team announced for tomorrow.

1 S Cluxton
2 E Culligan
3 R O'Carroll
4 J Cooper
5 P McMahon
6 C O'Sullivan
7 J McCaffrey
8 D Bastick
9 E O'Conghaile
10 T Brady
11 D Rock
12 C Kilkenny
13 K McManamon
14 P Andrews
15 B Brogan

Same as last game, right? Surprised at no Paul Flynn in the starting line up. Hope he didn't pick up a knock in the Tyrone game.

DoctaDee

Think COS is starting ahead of Nicky Devereaux ? Bastick has been a good servant but really ? ... I can't see why he's persisting with him .. would like to see Paddy Andrews partner Bernard rather than roving role

ProudDUB

Right you are on Cian. Agree with you on Bastic. He is a great option to have with 20 minutes of a dog fight left, but not as a starter.