Dublin GAA Discussion Thread MOD WARNING POST #2944

Godge

Nonevernomore wrote: »

I can't post links so I just put a space between the first w and the second w. I thought it would be easy to work out but there ya go!
Also there seems to be a common theme amongst Dub supporters when this issue comes up. They try to laugh it off, I think this quote sums it up!

It's not always the tears that measure the pain, sometimes it's the smile we fake.

Haven't a clue what you are talking about because the link doesn't work.The following message appears:

"Sorry...
The article you were trying to read was free only for a limited time"

Celebrations resuming following this short interruption:D:D.

Nonevernomore

You want us to buy you subscriptions to papers as well as All Ireland's now?

This issue will never go away.

Menoetius

Nonevernomore, we get it, you think Dublin bought the All Ireland.
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Do you have to keep repeating it over and over?

Making a point once is fair enough, repeating it constantly just makes you look like a troll.

Nonevernomore

I didn't think it was the same Dublin posters who post over and over again. I'd be interested in a Dublin supporters point of view on the issue. All I've got so far is people ignoring it and deflecting. Why is that? And if that's all that's ever going to come from bringing that up here then of course I won't be posting about it.

ArielAtom

NNNM,, are you going by Spewins article? Will you actually do some research and then your factual findings rather than those of a bitter flowerbag can be debated. I am not in possession of the figues but if you get them I will do my own research and maybe even engage in debate. Until you have facts no one will take your "posting" seriously.

Nonevernomore

The figures about games development? Or what figures are you looking for? I can get you links for these.

Godge

Nonevernomore wrote: »

I didn't think it was the same Dublin posters who post over and over again. I'd be interested in a Dublin supporters point of view on the issue. All I've got so far is people ignoring it and deflecting. Why is that? And if that's all that's ever going to come from bringing that up here then of course I won't be posting about it.

All you have done is be provocative.

You haven't presented any coherent analysis to back up your point. You linked to an article behind a paywall.

Anyone who has examined this issue understands that the aim of the money that Dublin have is to increase participation in sport at child level with a view to improving the country's health outcomes. It doesn't go into preparation of the senior team, it doesn't go to pay the manager, it is used where it should be used - at juvenile level.

You are trying to prove a causal link between investment at juvenile level and success at senior level. If that was the case then in another sport, say soccer, Crewe Alexandra and West Ham United would be fighting for top spot in the Premiership every year. The money does what it does - increase participation at juvenile level. If some other county comes up with a coherent programme to do that, they will get the required finance to do it too, Dublin will always get more because there are more kids in Dublin, and GAA facilities are historically underdeveloped in Dublin.

ArielAtom

Post facts, not some hacks interpretation of the figues. As the old saying goes, paper never refused ink. The new saying is post enough clickbait and you will make money.

Menoetius

Nonevernomore wrote: »

I didn't think it was the same Dublin posters who post over and over again. I'd be interested in a Dublin supporters point of view on the issue. All I've got so far is people ignoring it and deflecting. Why is that? And if that's all that's ever going to come from bringing that up here then of course I won't be posting about it.

No I'm fairly sure it's you posting the same thing over and over on this and other threads.
I enjoy reading the threads mostly, only rarely jump in with a post.

Make your point by all means, but by repeatedly making the same old point you are ruining it for everyone else.

I think the reason people aren't engaging with you is they see you as a WUM as opposed to someone willing to have some reasoned debate.

We are all too happy this week to be dragged into a row

Biloxi Blues

Godge wrote: »

All you have done is be provocative.


Anyone who has examined this issue understands that the aim of the money that Dublin have is to increase participation in sport at child level with a view to improving the country's health outcomes. It doesn't go into preparation of the senior team, it doesn't go to pay the manager, it is used where it should be used - at juvenile level.

You are trying to prove a causal link between investment at juvenile level and success at senior level. If that was the case then in another sport, say soccer, Crewe Alexandra and West Ham United would be fighting for top spot in the Premiership every year. The money does what it does - increase participation at juvenile level. If some other county comes up with a coherent programme to do that, they will get the required finance to do it too, Dublin will always get more because there are more kids in Dublin, and GAA facilities are historically underdeveloped in Dublin.

Interesting that you say that the money given to Dublin, if used for Dublin juveniles, is improving the "country's health outcomes". How is this money, if used for Dublin juveniles, benefiting anyone , juvenile or otherwise, outside Dublin? So why did you refer to the "country"?

Amongst all that deflection and waffle and insistence that "it's all for the poor childer" you are ignoring that Dublin have received more money PER PLAYER in games development than anybody else. Not just per county (of which they are many multiples the biggest beneficiary of even the second highest beneficiary) but the highest by far PER PLAYER.

HamsterFace

Godge wrote:

Anyone who has examined this issue understands that the aim of the money that Dublin have is to increase participation in sport at child level with a view to improving the country's health outcomes. It doesn't go into preparation of the senior team, it doesn't go to pay the manager, it is used where it should be used - at juvenile level.

I'm not a dub but live up here, and agree with this. It's fantastic to see the growth of gaa here, even in my leafy suburb that was once mostly rugby you see the kids carrying hurls and O'Neill footballs.

Dublin do have some advantages, but rather than funding I would say it's the proximity of players work and training. Little that can be done about this and in any case, the dubs where shown to be well beatable this year so maybe if they steamroller to 4 in a row we can ask questions but I think we're OK for now.

My question for the thread though, do you think there is a possibility for Dublin to become a victim of its own success if it's growth and popularity throughout the city and country means that in maybe 10/15 years time that no county has any sort of a chance of beating them, and that this may lead to the eventual break up?

Or maybe no point discussing what hasn't happened :-)

Biloxi Blues

Menoetius wrote: »

No I'm fairly sure it's you posting the same thing over and over on this and other threads.
I enjoy reading the threads mostly, only rarely jump in with a post.

Make your point by all means, but by repeatedly making the same old point you are ruining it for everyone else.

I think the reason people aren't engaging with you is they see you as a WUM as opposed to someone willing to have some reasoned debate.

We are all too happy this week to be dragged into a row

Yes, call anyone who presents the unpalatable facts a WUM. When the Dublin financial doping is brought up at Congress , finally, by a delegate with balls , John Costello should call him a "WUM", a "troll" and say he's actually another person.

Jaden

Nonevernomore wrote: »

The figures about games development? Or what figures are you looking for? I can get you links for these.

If you could link to the data, that would be enough. Thank You.

Biloxi Blues

Jaden wrote: »

If you could link to the data, that would be enough. Thank You.

It's all in the GAA's audited financial statements. Unless you have some reason to believe the audited statements are false and misleading, this is just an attempt at deflection.

Menoetius

Biloxi Blues wrote: »

Yes, call anyone who presents the unpalatable facts a WUM. When the Dublin financial doping is brought up at Congress , finally, by a delegate with balls , John Costello should call him a "WUM", a "troll" and say he's actually another person.

No I don't call anyone who brings the topic up as a WUM, a troll, or anything else so let's not go there trying to pick fights again.

My point about him being seen as a "WUM" or a "troll" was due to the fact that he is peppering the thread (and others) with the same old point over and over.

Every single post he has made here GAA related has been having a dig at Dublin some way or another.

He even picked his all star 15 without a single player from the champions on it.

Hardly indicating a willingness for reasoned debate.

Glad to have clarified

Godge

Biloxi Blues wrote: »

Interesting that you say that the money given to Dublin, if used for Dublin juveniles, is improving the "country's health outcomes". How is this money, if used for Dublin juveniles, benefiting anyone , juvenile or otherwise, outside Dublin? So why did you refer to the "country"?

If you don't understand the need to promote exercise, social interaction and sport in an urban environment for public health reasons, then there is not a lot more I can do to explain it to you.

Biloxi Blues wrote: »

Amongst all that deflection and waffle and insistence that "it's all for the poor childer" you are ignoring that Dublin have received more money PER PLAYER in games development than anybody else. Not just per county (of which they are many multiples the biggest beneficiary of even the second highest beneficiary) but the highest by far PER PLAYER.

Someone presented a map with no links and no statistics to back it up.

If someone goes to the trouble of posting up the sources for the statistics, then of course it can be debated. If it was just someone dividing the money given to Dublin by the average senior football panel or the number of senior football players in Dublin, then it is a load of hogwash. Until I can find out whether it is anything other than the usual low-level tabloid journalism on the subject, I am happy to ignore it.

Biloxi Blues

Menoetius wrote: »

No I don't call anyone who brings the topic up as a WUM, a troll, or anything else so let's not go there trying to pick fights again.

My point about him being seen as a "WUM" or a "troll" was due to the fact that he is peppering the thread (and others) with the same old point over and over.

Every single post he has made here GAA related has been having a dig at Dublin some way or another.

He even picked his all star 15 without a single player from the champions on it.

Hardly indicating a willingness for reasoned debate.

Glad to have clarified

Ah, but the only thing you have "clarified" is that you are unwilling to engage and hope the issue is not discussed and 'justified' it by attacking the character of the poster who has raised the issue.

Menoetius

Biloxi Blues wrote: »

Ah, but the only thing you have "clarified" is that you are unwilling to engage and hope the issue is not discussed and 'justified' it by attacking the character of the poster who has raised the issue.

I don't care whether the issue is discussed or not on here to be honest.

Not did I say anywhere that I hope the issues isn't discussed.

You know this, now as before, please stop trying to pick a fight with me.

Biloxi Blues

Godge wrote: »

If you don't understand the need to promote exercise, social interaction and sport in an urban environment for public health reasons, then there is not a lot more I can do to explain it to you.





Someone presented a map with no links and no statistics to back it up.

If someone goes to the trouble of posting up the sources for the statistics, then of course it can be debated. If it was just someone dividing the money given to Dublin by the average senior football panel or the number of senior football players in Dublin, then it is a load of hogwash. Until I can find out whether it is anything other than the usual low-level tabloid journalism on the subject, I am happy to ignore it.

But you said the grossly disproportionate amount of money going to Dublin (which you seem to be insisting is going
only to children) is for the good of the whole country? How so?

What "low level tabloid journalism on the subject" do you speak of? There has been precious little journalism on it from any source. The analysis was carried from information in the GAA's own audited financial statements. Does your deflection extend to insisting that the audited financial statements are false.

Biloxi Blues

Menoetius wrote: »

I don't care whether the issue is discussed or not on here to be honest.

Not did I say anywhere that I hope the issues isn't discussed.

You know this, now as before, please stop trying to pick a fight with me.

Poor you. I didn't say you said you didn't want it to be discussed, it is your actions and not words that show that. If you don't want to discuss it, fine, but don't tell us anyone is 'picking' on you when all you are doing is deflection through thread-clogging.

Dyr

Nonevernomore wrote: »

I didn't think it was the same Dublin posters who post over and over again. I'd be interested in a Dublin supporters point of view on the issue. All I've got so far is people ignoring it and deflecting. Why is that? And if that's all that's ever going to come from bringing that up here then of course I won't be posting about it.

We're all delighted that we're stealing money from Culchie under 12 teams to buy All Irelands. Your tears are like champagne to us.

Next Caller

ArielAtom

Bambi, you are right, it's like a Joe Duffy call in, waiting for the woman from Clontarf next!!!!!!!!!

It's great to be a Dub and witness some of the bitterness, it is not reflective of all the country, but a few special country cousins!!!!!

Godge

HamsterFace wrote: »

I'm not a dub but live up here, and agree with this. It's fantastic to see the growth of gaa here, even in my leafy suburb that was once mostly rugby you see the kids carrying hurls and O'Neill footballs.

Dublin do have some advantages, but rather than funding I would say it's the proximity of players work and training. Little that can be done about this and in any case, the dubs where shown to be well beatable this year so maybe if they steamroller to 4 in a row we can ask questions but I think we're OK for now.

My question for the thread though, do you think there is a possibility for Dublin to become a victim of its own success if it's growth and popularity throughout the city and country means that in maybe 10/15 years time that no county has any sort of a chance of beating them, and that this may lead to the eventual break up?

Or maybe no point discussing what hasn't happened :-)

I would agree that it hasn't happened yet and an actual discussion of the issue is premature. That doesn't rule out talking about a hypothetical situation.

What strikes me though is that Kilkenny have achieved levels of dominance far beyond anything Dublin (or even Kerry in the past) have achieved or are likely to achieve in football. That hasn't resulted in the same amount of hand-wringing or crying about the state of hurling, which, objectively, is in a much poorer position than football competitively speaking.

The other thing that is interesting about the current debate is that the same people (be they journalists, broadcasters, bloggers, or posters) who complain about unfair advantages or financial doping in general tend to be the ones who tell us that Dublin are not the greatest football team ever. Either the financial doping results in the best GAA football team ever or it isn't an unfair advantage. To me, until we get to the stage where the Dublin team has achieved unparalleled or unprecedented success on the national stage, and are generally acknowledged as the best ever, then the conversation of what needs to be done, is premature. At provincial level, their recent success is on a par with Kerry's previous domination of Munster, but Kerry maintained that over a much longer period.

At national level, from 1969 to 1986, (18 championships) there were only four different counties winning the All-Ireland, Offaly won 3, Dublin won 4, Cork won 1, while Kerry won 10, more than all others combined.

In the 18 championships since 1999, there have been eight different winners. Kerry have won 6, Tyrone have won 3, Meath, Galway, Cork, Armagh and Donegal have won one each, while Dublin have only won 3.

You can argue about the dates I have chosen, but we are up to a decade away from having the same conversation about Dublin that we had about Kerry in 1986 unless Dublin go on for a five or six in a row. Even then we are only getting near Kilkenny levels in terms of success - what needs to be done about Kilkenny?

Godge

Biloxi Blues wrote: »

But you said the grossly disproportionate amount of money going to Dublin (which you seem to be insisting is going
only to children) is for the good of the whole country? How so?

What "low level tabloid journalism on the subject" do you speak of? There has been precious little journalism on it from any source. The analysis was carried from information in the GAA's own audited financial statements. Does your deflection extend to insisting that the audited financial statements are false.

I am not saying the audited financial statements are false, I am saying the analysis is most likely predicated on completely false assumptions and misleading comparisons - which is why I asked for a link to the figures, rather than the derisory map.

Menoetius

Biloxi Blues wrote: »

Poor you. I didn't say you said you didn't want it to be discussed, it is your actions and not words that show that. If you don't want to discuss it, fine, but don't tell us anyone is 'picking' on you when all you are doing is deflection through thread-clogging.

Yes you did.

"you are unwilling to engage and hope the issue is not discussed".

This is simply not true, I couldn't care less if it's discussed. I was explaining to another poster why, in my opinion, people weren't engaging him on the topic.

Look I'm flattered at the attention but really not interested in a childish internet spat.

Let it go.

Biloxi Blues

Godge wrote: »

I would agree that it hasn't happened yet and an actual discussion of the issue is premature. That doesn't rule out talking about a hypothetical situation.

What strikes me though is that Kilkenny have achieved levels of dominance far beyond anything Dublin (or even Kerry in the past) have achieved or are likely to achieve in football. That hasn't resulted in the same amount of hand-wringing or crying about the state of hurling, which, objectively, is in a much poorer position than football competitively speaking.

The other thing that is interesting about the current debate is that the same people (be they journalists, broadcasters, bloggers, or posters) who complain about unfair advantages or financial doping in general tend to be the ones who tell us that Dublin are not the greatest football team ever. Either the financial doping results in the best GAA football team ever or it isn't an unfair advantage. To me, until we get to the stage where the Dublin team has achieved unparalleled or unprecedented success on the national stage, and are generally acknowledged as the best ever, then the conversation of what needs to be done, is premature. At provincial level, their recent success is on a par with Kerry's previous domination of Munster, but Kerry maintained that over a much longer period.

At national level, from 1969 to 1986, (18 championships) there were only four different counties winning the All-Ireland, Offaly won 3, Dublin won 4, Cork won 1, while Kerry won 10, more than all others combined.

In the 18 championships since 1999, there have been eight different winners. Kerry have won 6, Tyrone have won 3, Meath, Galway, Cork, Armagh and Donegal have won one each, while Dublin have only won 3.

You can argue about the dates I have chosen, but we are up to a decade away from having the same conversation about Dublin that we had about Kerry in 1986 unless Dublin go on for a five or six in a row. Even then we are only getting near Kilkenny levels in terms of success - what needs to be done about Kilkenny?

You're comparing apples with oranges. We live in an entirely different commercial age to what happened in the 1970's. The GAA and taxpayer money diverted to Dublin, the biggest commercial hub and sponsorship receivers already, only widens the vast financial chasm between Dublin and the rest.

Biloxi Blues

Godge wrote: »

I am not saying the audited financial statements are false, I am saying the analysis is most likely predicated on completely false assumptions and misleading comparisons - which is why I asked for a link to the figures, rather than the derisory map.

It's taken from the audited financial statements of the GAA and the registered players per county. Give us a link to prove that all of the Dublin financial doping money is going to children.

PARlance

It would be interesting to hear what Dub Supporters' main positives from the year are. Winning the AI obviously... but apart from that, what or who really stood out?

From an outsider, Dean Rock would get a special mention for me. I still think he needs to improve his kicking range but he has come on leaps and bounds in general play imo. I thought he really stood up the last day. It may be a small thing but seeing him running back to Higgins after he scored from play and letting Higgins "know he was there" was something a bit of a landmark moment in how I viewed him anyway.

ArielAtom

Have you the figures, is the money going to just registered adult footballers? The Spewin MacBull****ter term of financial doping is laughable, you should really drop it or is it you Spewin?

If it is just adult football then the figures are being manipulated to suit the hacks argument.If you can link me to the stats that show it is just adult football that is receiving the funding we can debate.

Menoetius

PARlance wrote: »

It would be interesting to hear what Dub Supporters' main positives from the year are. Winning the AI obviously... but apart from that, what or who really stood out?

From an outsider, Dean Rock would get a special mention for me. I still think he needs to improve his kicking range but he has come on leaps and bounds in general play imo. I thought he really stood up the last day. It may be a small thing but seeing him running back to Higgins after he scored from play and letting Higgins "know he was there" was something a bit of a landmark moment in how I viewed him anyway.

Fenton's continued improvement was great to see.

Also the full back line were declared "suspect in the air" before a ball was kicked once O'Carroll left. How the line coped without him was a big plus for me.