staring at disabled people?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 26-12-2013 3:18pm

Bananatop wrote: »

I can see where you're coming from, but I would still say fair play to your friend! She's fighting a battle every single minute of every single day, yet she still carries on. You've got to admire her guts! I don't know, but surely spending the night looking after someone with such courage far outweighs any other benefit you might get from the night out?

Not really to be honest. She came out for my birthday last year and my heart was in my mouth the entire time. If she was at the bar talking to someone then we had to stand around waiting for her to be ready to walk wherever with her. She ended up tripping on a step, the stairs can be slippy sometimes from people spilling drinks on it, it's honestly not worth it because all the time you're just terrified at any moment she's going to slip and fall. I don't smoke myself, so traipsing up and down to a smoking area all night, and standing breathing in second hand smoke, not really a good night out to be honest.

Anyway, apparently this is not relevant? Disabled people don't want to be treated differently, but the fact is they are different and people have to allow for that, but also I think the onus is on them also, to exercise common sense, accept some places aren't suitable or safe for them and avoid these places, rather than get all outraged that these places haven't been made disability friendly.

26-12-2013 3:22pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Not really to be honest. She came out for my birthday last year and my heart was in my mouth the entire time. If she was at the bar talking to someone then we had to stand around waiting for her to be ready to walk wherever with her. She ended up tripping on a step, the stairs can be slippy sometimes from people spilling drinks on it, it's honestly not worth it because all the time you're just terrified at any moment she's going to slip and fall. I don't smoke myself, so traipsing up and down to a smoking area all night, and standing breathing in second hand smoke, not really a good night out to be honest.

I hope your friend doesn't read your posts.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 26-12-2013 3:24pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I hope your friend doesn't read your posts.

Why? Because I'm worried she might fall and injure herself so bad she might not walk again? Or because some drunk in a nightclub might fall across her walker and break his neck? Or because I don't want to spend a night standing in a smoking area breathing in second hand smoke? None of my other friends would expect me to breathe in toxic air and wouldn't be offended if I said I'd rather not, don't see why she would be offended either

26-12-2013 3:25pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

don't see why she would be offended either

So you've said it to her face then?

Czarcasm · 26-12-2013 3:26pm

Bananatop wrote: »

I can see where you're coming from, but I would still say fair play to your friend! She's fighting a battle every single minute of every single day, yet she still carries on. You've got to admire her guts! I don't know, but surely spending the night looking after someone with such courage far outweighs any other benefit you might get from the night out?

I think Lexie was making the point that her friend makes a martyr of herself for attention. I wouldn't particularly see her behaviour as courageous, I'd see it as putting herself in danger and putting the club at risk of liability should anything actually happen to her as a patron of the nightclub.

I think it's only right that people with physical disabilities should be taught to exercise some common sense rather than expect everyone else to accommodate them. Some situations just aren't practical for some people.

I can only speak for myself personally when I say I'd rather not be babysat either on a night out and let people go off and do their own thing, they're there to have fun just as much as I am. It's only IMO that a person who is physically disabled should also show consideration for those around them if they expect consideration to be shown TO them.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 26-12-2013 3:27pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So you've said it to her face then?

Yes, I complain every single time she wants to go for a smoke, and I have to go with her and when we are in a normal bar with a smoking area on a flat surface I let her go on her own.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 26-12-2013 3:30pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

I think it's only right that people with physical disabilities should be taught to exercise some common sense rather than expect everyone else to accommodate them. Some situations just aren't practical for some people.

There you go. Czarcasm has put what I've been rambling on trying to say, perfectly.

Bananatop · 26-12-2013 3:33pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Not really to be honest. She came out for my birthday last year and my heart was in my mouth the entire time. If she was at the bar talking to someone then we had to stand around waiting for her to be ready to walk wherever with her. She ended up tripping on a step, the stairs can be slippy sometimes from people spilling drinks on it, it's honestly not worth it because all the time you're just terrified at any moment she's going to slip and fall. I don't smoke myself, so traipsing up and down to a smoking area all night, and standing breathing in second hand smoke, not really a good night out to be honest.

Anyway, apparently this is not relevant? Disabled people don't want to be treated differently, but the fact is they are different and people have to allow for that, but also I think the onus is on them also, to exercise common sense, accept some places aren't suitable or safe for them and avoid these places, rather than get all outraged that these places haven't been made disability friendly.

I agree we should all exercise common sense in relation to our own safety.

But to be honest, I find your attitude towards your friend hard to understand.

26-12-2013 3:34pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Yes, I complain every single time she wants to go for a smoke, and I have to go with her and when we are in a normal bar with a smoking area on a flat surface I let her go on her own.

Well if she's that selfish, and you're that unable to enjoy your night when she's there, perhaps you should consider not going out with her.

I don't blame someone with MS for "being a martyr" as described above. If I knew that my abilities would be taken away from me at some point while I'm probably still young, I would be a martyr too. I wouldn't stop doing the things I wanted to do until I had absolutely no choice but to stop them.

A time will most likely come when that girl won't physically be able to go upstairs any more. When she will not be able walk from one side of a room to another. When she will need assistance eating and going to the bathroom. When MS will take her life away from her. I hope then you will see why your posts seem so cold.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 26-12-2013 3:34pm

Bananatop wrote: »

But to be honest, I find your attitude towards your friend hard to understand.

Whys that

Duck's hoop · 26-12-2013 3:35pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Not really to be honest. She came out for my birthday last year and my heart was in my mouth the entire time. If she was at the bar talking to someone then we had to stand around waiting for her to be ready to walk wherever with her. She ended up tripping on a step, the stairs can be slippy sometimes from people spilling drinks on it, it's honestly not worth it because all the time you're just terrified at any moment she's going to slip and fall. I don't smoke myself, so traipsing up and down to a smoking area all night, and standing breathing in second hand smoke, not really a good night out to be honest.

Maybe you're fretting just a bit too much. This woman has an incurable and degenerative neurological condition. Through no fault of her own her life is slowly slipping from her control.

I think she's as entitled as the next person to say 'fcuk it I'm going out'.

The unfortunate reality is she no doubt realises the day is fast approaching when she really won't be able to get out and about as she wants, and she's hanging on to these nights out as long as she can.

Fair play to her friends for helping her out in a time of need.

Annasopra · 26-12-2013 3:37pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

I think Lexie was making the point that her friend makes a martyr of herself for attention. I wouldn't particularly see her behaviour as courageous, I'd see it as putting herself in danger and putting the club at risk of liability should anything actually happen to her as a patron of the nightclub.

I think it's only right that people with physical disabilities should be taught to exercise some common sense rather than expect everyone else to accommodate them. Some situations just aren't practical for some people.

I can only speak for myself personally when I say I'd rather not be babysat either on a night out and let people go off and do their own thing, they're there to have fun just as much as I am. It's only IMO that a person who is physically disabled should also show consideration for those around them if they expect consideration to be shown TO them.

I read this completely differently. I see nothing about looking for attention at all. I see someone who is strong and determined that life shouldn't stop her in her tracks. She is enjoying life. To me assisting her to do that is is treating her equally. Nothing less, nothing more - just equal.

Tasden · 26-12-2013 3:40pm

Yeah, even look at the thread about the poor girl who died from her allergy after accidently eating the peanut sauce, so many people said the onus was on her/her parents to not eat at buffet places where cross contamination is more likely. In that case the danger/risk wasn't as obvious and it was more a tragic blameless (to an extent, without getting into it again on this thread) accident, but people do need to take it upon themselves to take caution and understand that while unfortunate sometimes there are limits that aren't exactly fair but for safety reasons need to be avoided. Now in Lexi's case the woman obviously feels her friends will limit the risks but its not always fair on them to be responsible for her well being.

ETA Lexi isn't saying that she shouldn't go out and enjoy herself with her friends, she's saying that the woman should exercise caution in deciding on where to go in the first place or else decide to limit herself to the areas within the club that are safe for her without needing to call on her friends to help her get to somewhere that she doesn't really need to go.

Bananatop · 26-12-2013 3:41pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Whys that

Well personally I wouldn't be a doormat and do everything for everybody, but I would go the extra mile for a friend, especially if they are facing extreme difficulty. If I am lucky enough to have a life that is more or less free of worry, I try to give to those who don't have that luxury, whether their worry is short term or long term. And also as whoopsadaisydoodles was saying, god only knows the internal dialogue your friend has with regard to her health in the future. I'd cut her a bit of slack.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 26-12-2013 3:41pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well if she's that selfish, and you're that unable to enjoy your night when she's there, perhaps you should consider not going out with her.

I don't blame someone with MS for "being a martyr" as described above. If I knew that my abilities would be taken away from me at some point while I'm probably still young, I would be a martyr too. I wouldn't stop doing the things I wanted to do until I had absolutely no choice but to stop them.

A time will most likely come when that girl won't physically be able to go upstairs any more. When she will not be able walk from one side of a room to another. When she will need assistance eating and going to the bathroom. When MS will take her life away from her. I hope then you will see why your posts seem so cold.

I don't see her as being selfish, and tbh, I don't really go out with her much anymore (for no reason related to her illness either), however, I don't think my attitude is cold either. I just personally don't like the fact we all have to pay in 10 euro of a Saturday night to look after 1 girl, nobody ends up having a good night, it's not all about one person you know. When she is out, there are way more suitable places to go out where everyone could have a good, safe, fun night, I don't see why she needs to be dragging herself around a nightclub and up and down stairs to prove a point.

And she ISN'T able to get up and down the stairs that's the problem. She needs someone to carry her walker up the stairs, she faces the wall and holds onto the rail and needs someone to link her up and down the stairs. When she could just go over to the lift, get a lift down to the ground floor by the door and have a smoke outside, reducing the stress on herself and on everyone else.

The nightclub can't refuse to let her in either because they'd be in big trouble, but it's a hazzard on everyone there. Her, us, and anyone drunk at the bar not expecting an aid to be behind them when they step backwards.

Bananatop · 26-12-2013 3:42pm

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Fair play to her friends for helping her out in a time of need.

+1

Rasheed · 26-12-2013 3:44pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I'm all for disabled people being treated equally but should exercise some cop on.

I know a girl with MS who's pretty bad on her feet and needs a walker to get around. She'll still insist on going to the only nightclub in our town, which is downright dangerous when she isn't the most steadiest on her feet. The smoking area is up about 2 flights of stairs, out on the roof and while she could go down the lift and out the front door to smoke outside the club, she says why should she, the best Craic is in the smoking area. It's also unfair on everyone with her as the entire night you're making sure nobody is banging into her, falling over her walker, or helping her up and down the stairs.

I think in some situations it's just better to admit that some places aren't suitable and to have a better, safer night, in a ground floor bar that is disability friendly.

Having a disability doesn't absolve you from being self centred and selfish. Tell her how you feel and try and reach common ground. If you can't, well then going to that smoking area is her baby.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 26-12-2013 3:46pm

Bananatop wrote: »

Well personally I wouldn't be a doormat and do everything for everybody, but I would go the extra mile for a friend, especially if they are facing extreme difficulty. If I am lucky enough to have a life that is more or less free of worry, I try to give to those who don't have that luxury, whether their worry is short term or long term. And also as whoopsadaisydoodles was saying, god only knows the internal dialogue your friend has with regard to her health in the future. I'd cut her a bit of slack.

We would go shopping together, for lunch or chinese, to the cinema, for quiet nights out, for birthdays in pubs that actually accommodate her, it's not like I never made the effort at all with her, or treated her differently, I just find that in her particular situation, a nightclub doesn't suit her, is dangerous and ensures everyone has a **** night, and tbh at ten euro in and ridiculously overpriced drinks, it's not exactly a **** night out for free.

Czarcasm · 26-12-2013 3:48pm

mango salsa wrote: »

I read this completely differently. I see nothing about looking for attention at all. I see someone who is strong and determined that life shouldn't stop her in her tracks. She is enjoying life. To me assisting her to do that is is treating her equally. Nothing less, nothing more - just equal.

I'm all for people enjoying their lives mango and pushing personal boundaries and all the rest of it, but at the same time, if you want to talk about REAL treating a person equally, should that person not also be taught to take other people's needs into consideration?

Duck's hoop · 26-12-2013 3:49pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

I think it's only right that people with physical disabilities should be taught to exercise some common sense rather than expect everyone else to accommodate them. Some situations just aren't practical for some people.

With every post you insist on PWD being 'taught' things. Taught to accept others mocking discrimination, and now taught common sense. As of course if they try to overcome the built environment they are merely 'martyring' themselves for attention.

I'm sure you'll multi quote some confection to refute this, but it increasingly appears as if you would rather PWD just stay at home. Or care centres.

There are almost always way around things. I've seen chair users in some wholly inaccessible places. They either got there themselves, or they got their mates to help.

No martyr attitude. No attention seeking. To a man and woman they abhor any extra attention and will do things as discretely as possible.

But this is totally OT.

Bananatop · 26-12-2013 3:49pm

Rasheed wrote: »

Having a disability doesn't absolve you from being self centred and selfish. Tell her how you feel and try and reach common ground. If you can't, well then going to that smoking area is her baby.

LexieOnRale wrote: »

We would go shopping together, for lunch or chinese, to the cinema, for quiet nights out, for birthdays in pubs that actually accommodate her, it's not like I never made the effort at all with her, or treated her differently, I just find that in her particular situation, a nightclub doesn't suit her, is dangerous and ensures everyone has a **** night, and tbh at ten euro in and ridiculously overpriced drinks, it's not exactly a **** night out for free.

True, but could you do what Rasheed has suggested? If you do feel you are being taken for a ride by your friend, treat her like anyone else and talk to her about it if you can.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 26-12-2013 3:53pm

Bananatop wrote: »

True, but could you do what Rasheed has suggested? If you do feel you are being taken for a ride by your friend, treat her like anyone else and talk to her about it if you can.

Oh she knows, I'm not one for keeping my feelings to myself. Like I said, I don't go out with her much anymore (nothing related to her illness) but at the time she knew I hated going to the smoking area, I would tell her I wasn't going with her but at the same time she knew I wasn't going to let her go on her own. I would suggest staying in pub X and she would insist on going to club Y.

Bananatop · 26-12-2013 3:54pm

IrishSkyBoxer wrote: »

I was at a gig a few years back.

There was a down syndrome guy (circa 18 - 24) with his brother and sister drinking a pint. I took a second look as I had never seen that before. The brother started shouting and roaring at me effing and blinding.

I genuinely meant no offence, I have a family member with DS, and I felt terrible afterwards.

Hmmmm, if anybody should feel terrible, it should be the guy who was effing and blinding at you!

Rasheed · 26-12-2013 3:57pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Oh she knows, I'm not one for keeping my feelings to myself. Like I said, I don't go out with her much anymore (nothing related to her illness) but at the time she knew I hated going to the smoking area, I would tell her I wasn't going with her but at the same time she knew I wasn't going to let her go on her own. I would suggest staying in pub X and she would insist on going to club Y.

Well nobody could blame you for not wanting to go out with her anymore if that was her attitude. As I said, having a disability doesn't mean you can't be a prick. I know plenty of them. And going back to the original point of being treated fairly, this applies when someone needs to be told to cop on too.

Bananatop · 26-12-2013 4:00pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Oh she knows, I'm not one for keeping my feelings to myself. Like I said, I don't go out with her much anymore (nothing related to her illness) but at the time she knew I hated going to the smoking area, I would tell her I wasn't going with her but at the same time she knew I wasn't going to let her go on her own. I would suggest staying in pub X and she would insist on going to club Y.

Ah well there's not much more you can do then. It could've been a thing for her that she liked having control over where ye were going because she knew a day might come where she wouldn't have the choice.

signing off, best wishes to anyone who's going through tough times

EdwardCastle · 26-12-2013 4:20pm

Bananatop wrote: »

You don't actually know me,
.

I know you.... you're a banana top, like the part you don't eat n stuff.

Czarcasm · 26-12-2013 4:22pm

Duck's hoop wrote: »

With every post you insist on PWD being 'taught' things. Taught to accept others mocking discrimination, and now taught common sense. As of course if they try to overcome the built environment they are merely 'martyring' themselves for attention.

I'm sure you'll multi quote some confection to refute this, but it increasingly appears as if you would rather PWD just stay at home. Or care centres.

There are almost always way around things. I've seen chair users in some wholly inaccessible places. They either got there themselves, or they got their mates to help.

No martyr attitude. No attention seeking. To a man and woman they abhor any extra attention and will do things as discretely as possible.

But this is totally OT.

Not at all DH, I think you're taking me up completely wrong. I don't know the girl Lexie is talking about but there was a thread on here a while back about a guy in a wheelchair who was told there was no way to accommodate his entry into a popular Dublin nightclub (touch site search is an arse), for his own safety and the safety of the patrons of the club and the employees of the club. He knew well what he was at organising a social media campaign to highlight his particular issue with this club because it's not as if there's a shortage of nightclubs in Dublin!

That's the kind of martyrdom I'm talking about, expecting everyone else to put themselves out to accommodate you. I mean, in your example above, where your friends bring your mate into places he wouldn't normally be able to access, what would happen to your mate if none of you were around and there was an emergency evacuation required? Your mate would have great difficulty evacuating the building.

Of course most physically disabled people will do things as discreetly as possible (though there's not much I can do when I'm hedgehog rolling down the escalator in a shopping centre the odd time I do take a risk and chance it instead of doing the sensible thing and taking the lift, the incident was avoidable, now I just look like a tit barrelling down the escalator!). I'm used to it though, but onlookers aren't, so naturally they're going to think "WTF??" as I get up and walk on as if nothing just happened.

I don't expect any special treatment and I'd rather people didn't treat me like an invalid when I fall over, which happens numerous times a day, but that's just me. A small minority of people will indeed expect that the world should revolve around them, and those are the people I take issue with, not because of the fact that they have a disability, but because of the fact that their attitude means they don't think they should have to consider other people who aren't physically disabled. Just because they may not be physically disabled doesn't mean they don't have issues of their own.

26-12-2013 5:33pm

mango salsa wrote: »

I work with people with disabilities who actually can't cope with it.

I don't like the idea that they should have to cope with it and accept it.

Well said, and thanks for the work you do.

I have a cousin who is profoundly disabled, physically and otherwise, since a devastating accident. She can't be taught to cope with it, but she's still able to be hurt by it. The confusion in her eyes would break anyone's heart.

I've had people refer to her as a vegetable, in front of her. I've had people asking me questions about her, in front of her. I've had people stare at her while I feed her if we're out for lunch. They don't even try to hide their distaste. I only look after her a day or so a month, and it drains the soul out of me to deal with people being thoughtless.

I don't mind people looking, but why does anyone feel it's ok to stare?

Another family member died after a degenerative illness. She was fully aware of everything, although it wasn't obvious. People were told this but still decided it was okay to talk about her as if she wasn't there, just because she couldn't speak any longer, or register expression on her face.

After a long time battling with peoples ignorance, it was easier to limit taking her out in public, because it was so stressful and hurtful for everyone. We were even asked once if she was a 'retard'. I really hate that word, especially the way it's flung around here.

Someone I know once said, while we were talking about it, that he'd rather die than become a 'zombie with no dignity'. How dare anyone decide that disability means a person has no dignity. She had more dignity in her little finger than that dope had in his whole body, he was just too closed minded to see it.

If someone is being rude, obnoxious, or offensive, then they are at fault and it's their behaviour that needs correction. Not the victims, not ever.

miralize · 26-12-2013 5:47pm

People staring at me is probably one of the most contributing factors to my anxiety in public. I have a limp thats pretty noticeable & muscle contractions in my hand.

I tend to try not to take notice, but it's difficult not to see people looking at you. I used to be an awful bastard to people about it though, stick the finger up, asking people if they'd like to take a picture etc... I've mellowed out a bit but yeah it still gets on my nerves.

Bullying and mocking is a whole different subject though.

EDIT : I do find staring back works for the most part, until they stop that is. I dont like staring at people usually.

Boombastic · 26-12-2013 7:03pm

I stare at everyone...and ye want me to start discriminating against disabled people by averting my eyes? Shame on the lot of ye

staring at disabled people?

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