Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

Angel2016

I have a property that has been rented since Feb 2013 to my tenant she is leaving on August 1st as the property is being sold so I am just wrapping everything up with it.

I was advised to get a letter from Irish water to show I am not liable for the charges on the apartment and that I will need this for the close of sale, I contacted Irish Water and my tenant has not registered to pay the charges like alot of people I would imagine they asked me for all her details so they can bill her but I am reluctant to do this at present and will take advice from my solicitor because of the way things have gone with Irish water and it being put on the back burner for a while, the reality is she doesn't want to pay the bill like alot of people and we have a very good relationship plus I dont want to hand out her personal details without knowing my rights and where I stand on it all.

Has anyone any information on this situation or been in this situation with a tenant ?

Will it delay the sale of the property?

Thanks

Atlantic Dawn

What did you have written in the lease about water bills being included or excluded in the rent?

uck51js9zml2yt

Tenant is liable for water charges.
Despite the current regime, the tenant still has an obligation to pay.
Pass their details onto IW.

punisher5112

Angel2016 wrote: »

I have a property that has been rented since Feb 2013 to my tenant she is leaving on August 1st as the property is being sold so I am just wrapping everything up with it.

I was advised to get a letter from Irish water to show I am not liable for the charges on the apartment and that I will need this for the close of sale, I contacted Irish Water and my tenant has not registered to pay the charges like alot of people I would imagine they asked me for all her details so they can bill her but I am reluctant to do this at present and will take advice from my solicitor because of the way things have gone with Irish water and it being put on the back burner for a while, the reality is she doesn't want to pay the bill like alot of people and we have a very good relationship plus I dont want to hand out her personal details without knowing my rights and where I stand on it all.

Has anyone any information on this situation or been in this situation with a tenant ?

Will it delay the sale of the property?

Thanks

Even with the 9 month stop the charges will be back. <mod snip>

Tenant is liable.

Contact tenant and tell them you need it sorted and you have no choice but to pass details if she won't.

Bob24

Basically you have 3 options:
- Give the details of the tenant to IW so that the debt has nothing to do with you or the property any-more (legally the tenant is person liable for it). It doesn't matter whether they actually pay (which is their problem); what matters to you is that they clearly become the person liable to pay.
- If you don't want to upset your tenant, you can pay the bills yourself to sort the situation even though you are not the one liable.
- if you don't do any of the previous two things, the debt will be legally attached to the property, meaning whoever is buying it from you will become legally liable. Their solicitor will likely notice this, which will delay the sale. You will then have a discussion with the buyer through your solicitors to negotiate what to do about the situation and basically either you will need to accept to pay or the buyer will need to accept taking over the liability to IW. If I was the buyer, I would use this as an excuse to ask fro a discount on the agreed sales price as this was originally not disclosed and not part of the deal, so eventually you are likely to end up wasting time, maybe solicitor fees, and being the one paying.

My first recommendation is the first option (if the tenant doesn't want to pay fine, but they should take the responsibility for it rather than leaving it with you). And if you are not happy with that you should really go for the second option as otherwise it will eventually come back to you one way or another.

Angel2016

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

What did you have written in the lease about water bills being included or excluded in the rent?

She is there since Feb 2013 so on the first lease I didn't have anything included and on the second one we were really unsure as to what was happening I said it to her when IW first came on the scene and said look we will see how its progresses but now that I am selling the place I need it sorted.

Angel2016

Bob24 wrote: »

Basically you have 3 options:
- Give the details of the tenant to IW so that the debt has nothing to do with you or the property any-more (legally the tenant is person liable for it). It doesn't matter whether they actually pay which is their problem, what matters to you is that they clearly become the person liable to pay.
- If you don't want to upset your tenant, you can pay the bills yourself to sort the situation even though you are not the one liable.
- if you don't do any of the previous two things, the debt will be legally attached to the property, meaning whoever is buying it from you will become legally liable. Their solicitor will likely notice this, which will delay the sale. You will then have a discussion with the buyer through your solicitors to negotiate what to do about the situation and basically either you will need to accept to pay or the buyer will need to accept taking over the liability to IW. If I was the buyer, I would use this as an excuse to ask fro a discount on the agreed sales price as this was originally not disclosed and not part of the deal, so eventually you are likely to end up wasting time, maybe solicitor fees, and being the one paying.

My first recommendation is the first option (if the tenant doesn't want to pay fine, but they should take the responsibility for it rather than leaving it with you). And if you are not happy with that you should really go for the second option as otherwise it will eventually come back to you one way or another.

Thanks all I am going with option one and will pass on her details because I have other charges to be paying out with the maintenance fees etc and NPPR

TheChizler

Angel2016 wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

Basically you have 3 options:
- Give the details of the tenant to IW so that the debt has nothing to do with you or the property any-more (legally the tenant is person liable for it). It doesn't matter whether they actually pay which is their problem, what matters to you is that they clearly become the person liable to pay.
- If you don't want to upset your tenant, you can pay the bills yourself to sort the situation even though you are not the one liable.
- if you don't do any of the previous two things, the debt will be legally attached to the property, meaning whoever is buying it from you will become legally liable. Their solicitor will likely notice this, which will delay the sale. You will then have a discussion with the buyer through your solicitors to negotiate what to do about the situation and basically either you will need to accept to pay or the buyer will need to accept taking over the liability to IW. If I was the buyer, I would use this as an excuse to ask fro a discount on the agreed sales price as this was originally not disclosed and not part of the deal, so eventually you are likely to end up wasting time, maybe solicitor fees, and being the one paying.

My first recommendation is the first option (if the tenant doesn't want to pay fine, but they should take the responsibility for it rather than leaving it with you). And if you are not happy with that you should really go for the second option as otherwise it will eventually come back to you one way or another.

Thanks all I am going with option one and will pass on her details because I have other charges to be paying out with the maintenance fees etc and NPPR

I think it's pretty much too late to pass on details at this stage. There's a provision in the act that makes the landlord responsible for the charges if they don't make sure their tenant is registered within 20 (I think it's 20 but might be wrong) days of the tenancy commencing. If you provide their details now you'll be responsible from when charges came in until now, and she'll be responsible from now until when she actually moves out.

The best outcome for you is either for her to register and pay the charges for the last year and a half, or you pay them and she pays you.

Angel2016

TheChizler wrote: »

I think it's pretty much too late to pass on details at this stage. There's a provision in the act that makes the landlord responsible for the charges if they don't make sure their tenant is registered within 20 (I think it's 20 but might be wrong) days of the tenancy commencing. If you provide their details now you'll be responsible from when charges came in until now, and she'll be responsible from now until when she actually moves out.

The best outcome for you is either for her to register and pay the charges for the last year and a half, or you pay them and she pays you.

No I checked with IW and with a neighbor of mine who just sold and once you pass on the tenants details she is liable for the charges now whether or not she pays them is her business but for me with the sale I get a letter stating I am not liable hence it does not stay with the apartment after its sold.

TheChizler

Angel2016 wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

I think it's pretty much too late to pass on details at this stage. There's a provision in the act that makes the landlord responsible for the charges if they don't make sure their tenant is registered within 20 (I think it's 20 but might be wrong) days of the tenancy commencing. If you provide their details now you'll be responsible from when charges came in until now, and she'll be responsible from now until when she actually moves out.

The best outcome for you is either for her to register and pay the charges for the last year and a half, or you pay them and she pays you.

No I checked with IW and with a neighbor of mine who just sold and once you pass on the tenants details she is liable for the charges now whether or not she pays them is her business but for me with the sale I get a letter stating I am not liable hence it does not stay with the apartment after its sold.

They're responsible for them from the date on which IW are notified and given the tenant's details, but this is the section of the act I was referring to.

Environment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2015

47. The Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013 is amended by inserting the following section after section 23:

Registration with Irish Water

23A. (1) Where water services are provided to a dwelling by Irish Water, the owner of the dwelling shall, subject to subsections (2) and (3)

(a) register with Irish Water as a customer and confirm whether or not the dwelling is his or her principal private residence, or

(b) notify Irish Water, in writing or in such other form and manner as Irish Water may specify, that he or she is not the occupier of the dwelling and provide

(i) the date of commencement of any agreement for the occupation of the dwelling, and

(ii) the name of each person with whom the owner has such an agreement for the occupation of the dwelling,

not later than

(I) 20 working days after the coming into operation of section 47 of the Environment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2015, and

(II) where there is a change in the occupation of the dwelling after the coming into operation of section 47 of the Environment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2015, 20 working days after such a change.

(2) Subsection (1)(I) shall not apply to the owner of a dwelling where, before the coming into operation of section 47 of the Environment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2015, Irish Water has been notified of the details of the occupation of the dwelling concerned.

(3) Where the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 applies to the dwelling concerned, subsection (1)(a) shall not apply to the owner of the dwelling but that owner shall comply with subsection (1)(b).

(4) Notwithstanding section 21(5) and subsection (5) of this section, where the owner of a dwelling fails to comply with subsection (1)(b), the owner shall pay to Irish Water any charge under section 21 in respect of the dwelling for the period from the date of commencement of the agreement for the occupation of the dwelling until the date on which the owner so complies.

(5) (a) Unless such an agreement expressly provides otherwise, an agreement for the occupation of a dwelling entered into after the coming into operation of section 47 of the Environment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2015 is deemed to include a provision that the occupier shall pay to Irish Water any charge under section 21 in respect of the dwelling for the period from the date on which the agreement commences until the date on which the occupier vacates the dwelling.

(b) The exception provided for in paragraph (a) shall not apply to a dwelling to which the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 applies.

Relevant bits in bold.

Angel2016

Okay thanks I have passed on all her details so just waiting for a reply from IW

Bob24

Angel2016 wrote: »

Okay thanks I have passed on all her details so just waiting for a reply from IW

If you don't mind could you post an update here once you have a reply from them? I am curious to know if they are indeed enforcing a maximum delay to pass-on tenant details.

Angel2016

Bob24 wrote: »

If you don't mind could you post an update here once you have a reply from them? I am curious to know if they are indeed enforcing a maximum delay to pass-on tenant details.

Sure will do, I know my next door neighbor who just sold was in the same position she passed on the details of her tenants just the name and address of the property they said that the tenant goes on the database as liable but if they chose not to pay it thats another issue but once it's on the database the owner of the property is no longer liable and therefore she was issued a letter to state that which she passed onto the solicitor for the sale to proceed.

Angel2016

So just an update for everyone on Irish Water, I contacted them as I said I would and they said to give them my tenant's name and that they would enter her name on their database as being liable for the charges to be paid so I did that and they came back to me and said that because I never registered her name within the time scale given they have entered me down as liable for the charges on the property and that she will be liable from July 2016 which is no good seen as she is leaving Aug 1st.

They said that a bill was being sent out to the apartment in my name for it to be paid so I contacted my tenant yesterday and said that I needed her to register with IW to be liable for he bill because she has been there since Feb 2013 and here is the funny / annoying bit she told me that she couldn't possibly register with IW because she is already registered for her own house down in Wexford ! and that she wasn't going to register to pay two sets of bills I had to keep my cool to be honest as I was fuming I said look I am not paying your bills and that you only have to register as liable and dont pay the bills if you don't want to but that I could not have that outstanding for the sale of the property she then told me she is only doing the rent a room scheme in her house so is liable for that property and then she said sure you have been down on the bill since it came in so that means you must pay it....eh no I don't think so plus she rented the apt for 450 less then then the going rate and now she expects me to pay her bills.

I said I will call IW today and see what the situation is and her response was ye grand sure we can come to some arrangement as in split the bill 50/50 if it has to be paid lol....it makes me laugh at the cheek of her.

IW were contridicting themselves one person telling me one thing and another telling me the opposite, I will call them shortly.

Bob24

Angel2016 wrote: »

So just an update for everyone on Irish Water, I contacted them as I said I would and they said to give them my tenant's name and that they would enter her name on their database as being liable for the charges to be paid so I did that and they came back to me and said that because I never registered her name within the time scale given they have entered me down as liable for the charges on the property and that she will be liable from July 2016 which is no good seen as she is leaving Aug 1st.

They said that a bill was being sent out to the apartment in my name for it to be paid so I contacted my tenant yesterday and said that I needed her to register with IW to be liable for he bill because she has been there since Feb 2013 and here is the funny / annoying bit she told me that she couldn't possibly register with IW because she is already registered for her own house down in Wexford ! and that she wasn't going to register to pay two sets of bills I had to keep my cool to be honest as I was fuming I said look I am not paying your bills and that you only have to register as liable and dont pay the bills if you don't want to but that I could not have that outstanding for the sale of the property she then told me she is only doing the rent a room scheme in her house so is liable for that property and then she said sure you have been down on the bill since it came in so that means you must pay it....eh no I don't think so plus she rented the apt for 450 less then then the going rate and now she expects me to pay her bills.

I said I will call IW today and see what the situation is and her response was ye grand sure we can come to some arrangement as in split the bill 50/50 if it has to be paid lol....it makes me laugh at the cheek of her.

IW were contridicting themselves one person telling me one thing and another telling me the opposite, I will call them shortly.

Thanks for the update - IW's answer might be of interest to other people - and all the best to get this fixed.

You might want to double-check, but I *think* that if you included in the lease that all utility bills are the responsibility of the tenant, you should legally be able to withhold the amount to cover the bills from her deposit. Sure the bills where sent under your name but since you have no access to the property there is no way you could have known.

Angel2016

Thanks I will check the lease

rkrk

ive been renting in a house for the last 3 years and will be moving soon. i havnt paid any water bills that came and havnt registered with irish water even though bills have come in my name.

will i have to pay them all now or is the landlord entitled to withhold deposit money to pay them?

about a year ago they mentioned it to us and we said we would pay if we had to but wanted to see what way it went first and told them we wouldnt let them get caught to pay it if they became compulsary.

L1011

They were always compulsory...

rkrk

L1011 wrote: »

They were always compulsory...

ya but half the people didnt agree. thats a matter for another thread

The_Conductor

rkrk wrote: »

ya but half the people didnt agree. thats a matter for another thread

Thats moot.
It is your bill- you are responsible for it.
That half the population hasn't paid it- is irrelevant- and indeed, was clarified by the EU only last Thursday- it is compulsary, it is not going to be abolished- those who owe money will be chased for it, with penalties accruing.

Bob24

rkrk wrote: »

ive been renting in a house for the last 3 years and will be moving soon. i havnt paid any water bills that came and havnt registered with irish water even though bills have come in my name.

will i have to pay them all now or is the landlord entitled to withhold deposit money to pay them?

about a year ago they mentioned it to us and we said we would pay if we had to but wanted to see what way it went first and told them we wouldnt let them get caught to pay it if they became compulsory.

In short: as mentioned by the previous poster the charges have always been mandatory and technically as the resident of the property you are legally liable (though you are in a grey area as you didn't register and you landlord didn't force-register you). At the end of the day either yourself or your landlord has to pay - if they don't force you to register they will become legally liable. If neither yourself not the landlord accept to pay right now the charges will be associated to their property with late payment fees building up over time, and it will come back to haunt them whenever their decide to sell the property (or maybe if the future when new tenants move in depending one the Irish Water policies). From their perspective it would be silly to let you get away with not paying.

If you don't pay I assume they will attempt to withhold the amount from your deposit (easy of they have a clause in the lease saying you need to pay all utility bills associated to the property - more difficult but probably still possible if they don't), and won't write you a good reference if you need one.

rkrk

The_Conductor wrote: »

Thats moot.
It is your bill- you are responsible for it.
That half the population hasn't paid it- is irrelevant- and indeed, was clarified by the EU only last Thursday- it is compulsary, it is not going to be abolished- those who owe money will be chased for it, with penalties accruing.

i just keep hearing mixed things about it, that they wont be following up unpaid bills, then that they will. so the eu said last week they will be chasing people for unpaid bills with penaltys.
i think it is relevant that most people dont agree to them. it is a democracy.

rkrk

Bob24 wrote: »

In short: as mentioned by the previous poster the charges have always been mandatory and technically as the resident of the property you are legally liable (though you are in a grey area as you didn't register and you landlord didn't force-register you). At the end of the day either yourself or your landlord has to pay - if they don't force you to register they will become legally liable. If neither yourself not the landlord accept to pay right now the charges will be associated to their property with late payment fees building up over time, and it will come back to haunt them whenever their decide to sell the property (or maybe if the future when new tenants move in depending one the Irish Water policies). From their perspective it would be silly to let you get away with not paying.

If you don't pay I assume they will attempt to withhold the amount from your deposit (easy of they have a clause in the lease saying you need to pay all utility bills associated to the property - more difficult but probably still possible if they don't), and won't write you a good reference if you need one.

ok thanks for the help.they havnt mentioned it so far and we only had to give a months notice and im out of the house friday. wil check the lease again later about utility bills

dudara

If the bills have your name on them, then you are liable.

rkrk

bills have also come for the same time period with other names on them. because something comes with my name how does that make me liable. what gives i.w. the right to charge people twice or 3 times for the same thing. i cant see how that should stand. the whole set up is a farce.

Bob24

dudara wrote: »

If the bills have your name on them, then you are liable.

If the person never willingly registered and was not registered by their landlord (i.e. IW probably got their name from the PTRB's database of tenancies) - are you sure their are still liable?

In the spirit of the law they clearly should be as they are the resident - but since they never actually confirmed they live their and the landlord never did either, is IW not going to consider the landlord as the resident by default as no-one else ever raised their hand to pay?

Bob24

rkrk wrote: »

bills have also come for the same time period with other names on them. because something comes with my name how does that make me liable. what gives i.w. the right to charge people twice or 3 times for the same thing. i cant see how that should stand. the whole set up is a farce.

The law clearly says the occupier of the premises is liable for the charges. The reason you might get away with not paying is if they can't prove you were the occupier during that period, and they turn to your landlord as it is easier to chase them because they have nowhere to hide.

But make no mistake, if you do that you will indeed be breaking the law by refusing to acknowledge your position as the occupier of the premises to avoid a legal liability related to it.

rkrk

if it comes to it i will pay, just hoping theres a way around it. since this started i presume tennants have left propertys and this has probably come up hundreds of times around the country.
my landlord is fairly switched on when it comes to money so id imagine it will be held back in the deposit or something like that

rkrk

because this has more then likely come up so many times and tennants who are against the charges have had to pay when leaving it will make the "people who have paid their bills" figure look alot better too

durtybit

Am sure the legal system will be clogged for years if everyone waits for a court case. Thats what happened the last time they tried to introduce this system. EU says a lot of things are compulsory but does that mean we follow tgem. Take corporation tax as an example.