Views on new Templecarrig admission policy

stilltryingit

Interesting that many of the CoI community are also unhappy with the new enrolment policy.I am now wondering who exactly IS happy with it?Who appointed the Board of Management and are non CoI children/families given any representation? I don't see anything about it on the school's website.

Swanner wrote: »

That statement is blatantly untrue.

Anyone in the CoI community that I have spoken to wants to see a school that serves the whole community and is inclusive of people of all faiths and none.

Many of them have expressed concerns over aspects of the new admissions policy.

Let's not tar a whole community for the decisions taken by a select few in the BoM.

potpourri

Wicklow Will wrote: »

You know what, I've tried biting my tongue and being objective but I've seen such blind and intransigent begrudgery in so many of the posts here that I have to speak my mind, plain and simple - no measured tones or weighed words! So, here it is:

1)There has been a lot of scaremongering here about the Protestants grabbing the places in this school, which is funded by the department of education, at the expense of the Roman Catholic kids, the Muslim kids, the Jewish, the Atheist kids and the agnostic kids!!

2)There have been those too who have jumped up and down about the fact that its tax payers money which has gone to fund the school so, because of this, the kids from the small Protestant community in Greystones and its hinterland shouldn't get first refusal on places in the school run by the CoI BOM but take their chances in the open lottery.

These essentially are the main gripes of the objectors.

So, in response to No. 1 above let me ask, not just the objectors here but anyone else who may read this thread the following questions to make you think... To read the objectors posts you'd think that this was A) being done in a banana republic, run by a junta. the CoI won the patronage fair and square in an open contest. C) these Protestants to whom you're referring as tho they were the mafia are actually your friends, neighbours, relations ... people you've known all your lives. Do you HONESTLY think they are going to set up a system that will deliberately disenfranchise the children of the area where they and you live? Of course not! The CoI have already said that there will be a significant, openly viewable allocation for non CoI kids. This is there for everyone to see on their website. As people know, the roll for 2014 and I think 2015 are, I think I'm right in saying, fully subscribed. Question: to what denomination do the majority of kids in the area belong? Answer: Roman Catholic.

If there was no "weighting" of places in a small number, in favour of Protestant kids and the initial applications were all from kids of other denominations to the exclusion of Protestant kids, wouldn't this totally defeat the objectives of having a CoI run secondary school in the area!?! D) Are there other Roman Catholic secondary schools within a 10km area, to cater for kids from this denomination? Answer: Yes!! E)
Are there other Non denominational secondary schools within a 10km area? Yes!!

If it had been the Ghael Scoil movement who had won the patronage and they insisted on your kids being taught through Ghaelige rather than English would you have vented your collective spleens so much?

Why was it, if you distrust the CoI population SO much you supported their application to secure the patronage?

2) So it's taxpayers money funding this. This should mean then that anything to do with a particular denomination / ethos / culture shouldn't be funded !?! I'll try and overlook this the next time the GAA, of which I'm not a great admirer or Foras na Gaelige which doesn't really float my boat either, receive tax payers money in grant side, yet I'm not a subscriber to their respective ethos but I am a tax payer!

Has anyone asked St David's if their enrolment is full for 2014/2015?!?

I think most will get my point.

I think it's time for the begrudgers to put up or shut up now at this stage. Stop creating ill will and scaremongering. As I said earlier, if you don't have faith or trust in the CoI community to be fair and just WHY did you support them in seeking the patronage in the first place? You hardly thought you were going to get a non denominational school by suppporting it did you. That'd be like going to the butchers, buying a leg of lamb and complaining when you went home that he hadn't given you a side of salmon! I honestly would like to know the real motivation behind your campaign?

I think its time for the BOM to keep their word and respect those who they asked to support their bid for patronage.

The Bishop Basher

So did ye all get places or were you just complaining on a point of principal ?

I hear on the grapevine that there are about 35 on the waiting list following the allocations. Assuming a sizeable number will have applied to a number of schools and may take places elsewhere, you
would expect that some of these will get in.

I can't verify the numbers but if they're true it certainly puts pay to the hysteria about mass discrimination.

Suppose we'll know for sure soon enough.

stilltryingit

I know of a few who didn't get places but there will be a second round of offers I think as some people will not take their places. The problem is going to increase year on year as the numbers applying increase. We know that CoI children from within the area and from outside the area will always take precedence over local children who are not CoI and that is wrong. CoI stated that they would not do this and they have.
A lot of people (including some who are CoI)are disappointed that the trust they placed in CoI has been broken

Wicklow Will

stilltryingit wrote: »

I know of a few who didn't get places but there will be a second round of offers I think as some people will not take their places. The problem is going to increase year on year as the numbers applying increase. We know that CoI children from within the area and from outside the area will always take precedence over local children who are not CoI and that is wrong. CoI stated that they would not do this and they have.
A lot of people (including some who are CoI)are disappointed that the trust they placed in CoI has been broken

I see at least you're living up to your username Still- trying-it !

Wicklow Will

FirstIn wrote: »

"
I really think bringing the funding in undermines your argument.

And I think, if you go back and read your post you'll see that you need to learn how to compose a comment of more than one clause that actually makes sense!

Wicklow Will

recedite wrote: »

If it was a Gaelscoil that afterwards decided to give priority admission to Roman Catholics (thereby discriminating against children of Protestants and others) then yes, I would object to that particular policy.


Again you are missing the point. You may not choose to support the GAA, but if you do choose to join, they will not say "Wait until we see how many catholics want to join this year. If there is any room left after that, you can join". Not only that, but the GAA only receives a State subsidy; it is largely self financing.

The bottom line is; if something is 100% funded from the public purse, all citizens should have equal access to that service or facility.

Contrary to what you repeat several times in your response to my post, it is not I who missed the point but you! Perhaps now that places have been allocated, you'll be gracious enough to admit your short sighted perspective and admit that TC BOM have accommodated a broad cross section of the community.

Annasopra

Wicklow Will wrote: »

And I think, if you go back and read your post you'll see that you need to learn how to compose a comment of more than one clause that actually makes sense!

Quit the grammar naziism

Egalitarian1

Swanner wrote: »

just complaining on a point of principal ?

.

There is nothing wrong with having principals.

There are always two sides to every coin, in view of the fact that there was no crisis this year, why did the BOM think it necessary to introduce a discriminatory new enrolment policy ?

The "Blank Cheque" (made out to "the chosen few") is still out there though. There is only €120 per annum in the account and no one seems to know how much is going to be left each year for the "others".

recedite

Wicklow Will wrote: »

Perhaps now that places have been allocated, you'll be gracious enough to admit your short sighted perspective and admit that TC BOM have accommodated a broad cross section of the community.

Certain people seem to have full access to all the information already, but I don't. Is it any different to what I predicted?

I made this point weeks ago;

recedite wrote: »

It would be more interesting to see the numbers being turned away; where they live, what primary schools they went to, and what religion (if any) they declared on their application forms.

As COI is a minority religion, and the school was built to take around 1000 pupils, there is no doubt that they will be able to say that the 2014 and 2015 intake of pupils represents a broad spectrum of society, local and not so local, and not exclusively COI members.
So it depends what your definition of "inclusive" is. We already know the admissions policy is discriminatory in terms of religious persuasion.

stilltryingit

Is there any update on how the 2015 policy went? did many children get turned down in the end?

Wineman

stilltryingit wrote: »

Is there any update on how the 2015 policy went? did many children get turned down in the end?

My son did not get a place, he was in category 3 as far as I am aware. We have lived in Greystones for 8 years but he was in a primary school outside of Greystones so he was down the pecking order due to this.

recedite

Some interesting info here. Its a document from St Laurence's school, freely available on the interweb. There is a pie chart showing who got admitted for 2014 (everyone that applied) but nothing for 2015.

loyatemu

recedite wrote: »

Some interesting info here. Its a document from St Laurence's school, freely available on the interweb. There is a pie chart showing who got admitted for 2014 (everyone that applied) but nothing for 2015.

there's a breakdown of where the places went in the Principal's May newsletter:

http://www.templecarrigschool.ie/May%20Newsletter%20PDF.pdf

homer911

Egalitarian1 wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with having principals.

They are particularly useful when trying to run a school!

homer911

loyatemu wrote: »

there's a breakdown of where the places went in the Principal's May newsletter:

http://www.templecarrigschool.ie/May%20Newsletter%20PDF.pdf

That's a very interesting and helpful update from the Principal..

recedite

Yes, its an interesting update from Temple Carrig (with a capital "C" from now on, apparently )
The prefabs thing is going to be an issue for many parents unfortunately, at least in the first one or two years of the school. People just don't want their little darlings going to school on a building site. The stats show that 15% of people who were offered a place decided not to take it up subsequently. 120 places out of 142 offered were taken up. That ties in with what I have heard anecdotally. Its an absolute scandal that the site is still idle, when the school is due to open in 3 months time, though not the fault of the new patron.

It is mentioned that only 7 people used a letter of recommendation from their clergyman to get a place. However we must assume that many of those allocated places from the two local COI primary schools had no need to look for the letter, as they were already allocated a place by lottery. In future years as the overall demand for places tightens up, there will be more people taking advantage of this mechanism.

Also the principal is very keen on establishing a difference between what he calls the "core" allocation for Delgany/Greystones (120 places per year max) and the total capacity of the school (up to 1000 places). This means that as the school expands, more and more will come in from outside the area under special provisions, but the 120 limit now being established on local places can remain unchanged.

The 12 extra places afforded to children from Church of Ireland national schools
outside the Greystones/Delgany area. Once again, I can see why people were perturbed. However, here again the Board of what is a Church of Ireland school was trying to make some very limited provision for genuine Church of Ireland parishioners for whom there are simply no secondary schools of their ethos available. The School has already pointed out that these places were in addition to the 120 pupils that the school was permitted to take in from the core Greystones/Delgany area. Some parents have responded with the very reasonable argument “but if you are able to take the extra 12 students, why shouldn’t the extra 12 be from the town?” What people aren’t aware of, however, is that the greatest issue of concern for the Department of Education & Skills in recent months has been the impact of Temple Carrig on the existing secondary school in the town. We were established to add to the second level capacity in Greystones, not to undermine other local schools, but there are real and serious concerns that Temple Carrig is taking a disproportionate number of local pupils from the local catchment.

There is only one secondary school in Greystones at the moment. Other towns of the same size have 3 or 4 schools. I just don't buy the argument that there is a "danger" of providing too many school places by opening this second school to all comers. There was never any mention of a separate "core" allocation for local kids in the original tender for patronage.

Also I don't buy the argument that someone from Newcastle has "simply no secondary schools of their ethos available". East Glendalough in Wicklow town is just as close to them as TC in Greystones is. Greystones may be more convenient, especially if one parent is driving up to the Dart park and ride facility every day for work, but I don't see that this convenience is a justification for displacing someone such as Winemans kid (refused a place; see a few posts up) who lives in Greystones and wants to start secondary school with his neighbours. Why should they have all the choices, just because they have co-religionist friends in the BOM, while people in the actual catchment area have to scramble for places in a lottery limited to 120 places?
It is a State owned school after all.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

Yes, its an interesting update from Temple Carrig (with a capital "C" from now on, apparently )
The prefabs thing is going to be an issue for many parents unfortunately, at least in the first one or two years of the school. People just don't want their little darlings going to school on a building site. The stats show that 15% of people who were offered a place decided not to take it up subsequently. 120 places out of 142 offered were taken up. That ties in with what I have heard anecdotally. Its an absolute scandal that the site is still idle, when the school is due to open in 3 months time, though not the fault of the new patron.

It is mentioned that only 7 people used a letter of recommendation from their clergyman to get a place. However we must assume that many of those allocated places from the two local COI primary schools had no need to look for the letter, as they were already allocated a place by lottery. In future years as the overall demand for places tightens up, there will be more people taking advantage of this mechanism.

Also the principal is very keen on establishing a difference between what he calls the "core" allocation for Delgany/Greystones (120 places per year max) and the total capacity of the school (up to 1000 places). This means that as the school expands, more and more will come in from outside the area under special provisions, but the 120 limit now being established on local places can remain unchanged.
There is only one secondary school in Greystones at the moment. Other towns of the same size have 3 or 4 schools. I just don't buy the argument that there is a "danger" of providing too many school places by opening this second school to all comers. There was never any mention of a separate "core" allocation for local kids in the original tender for patronage.

Also I don't buy the argument that someone from Newcastle has "simply no secondary schools of their ethos available". East Glendalough in Wicklow town is just as close to them as TC in Greystones is. Greystones may be more convenient, especially if one parent is driving up to the Dart park and ride facility every day for work, but I don't see that this convenience is a justification for displacing someone such as Winemans kid (refused a place; see a few posts up) who lives in Greystones and wants to start secondary school with his neighbours. Why should they have all the choices, just because they have co-religionist friends in the BOM, while people in the actual catchment area have to scramble for places in a lottery limited to 120 places?
It is a State owned school after all.

The site is not idle. They started building in the last day or two.

Also perhaps you didnt notice in the Templecarrig update but St Davids application numbers are dramatically down.

byhookorbycrook

"It has been suggested that we should allow Navy shoes as well as Black – presumably so that “Dubes” can be worn."

Nice to see the school has correct priorities.

FirstIn

From Recedite;
"There is only one secondary school in Greystones at the moment. Other towns of the same size have 3 or 4 schools. I just don't buy the argument that there is a "danger" of providing too many school places by opening this second school to all comers."

Why not ask them? It was mentioned in this thread that St David's was/is running at less than 100% capacity so it could well be a concern.

Remember other towns may not have such easy access to schools further afield or the history Greystones has of kids attending private schools. I'm on the dart in the mornings and it's packed with school kids.

Zoo4m8

Work started on the site over a week ago...

St. David's are now concerned that they will lose teachers..

recedite

If there is some problem with St Davids, they should address that themselves. I don't understand why people support protectionism when local kids education is at stake, when the same people would not tolerate it when doing their shopping.
If there was only one ancient supermarket in Greystones, and many people had got into the habit of going to Dundrum shopping centre to do their shopping, would that be a reason to stop new supermarkets opening? Or if a new one opened, only allow 120 people to have passes for it, such passes to be allocated in a lottery?

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

If there is some problem with St Davids, they should address that themselves. I don't understand why people support protectionism when local kids education is at stake, when the same people would not tolerate it when doing their shopping.
If there was only one ancient supermarket in Greystones, and many people had got into the habit of going to Dundrum shopping centre to do their shopping, would that be a reason to stop new supermarkets opening? Or if a new one opened, only allow 120 people to have passes for it, such passes to be allocated in a lottery?

Education isnt a commercial product so I fail to see how that analogy works at all.

recedite

So education is less important then?

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

So education is less important then?

No. I didnt say that.

recedite

Private schools obviously have a commercial aspect; they must provide some extra service relative to the fees they charge.

Schools in the public system such as TC and St. Davids are also subject to competitive pressures, but these are the pressures to win the confidence and votes of the public, who in turn provide the funding through their taxes.

In the case of TC, the COI applied for the patronage of a public facility in a competitive tender, and they won, with the most votes from parents of schoolgoing kids living in the local area.

In the case of St Davids, the school building itself is privately owned by a religious organisation, so there would be no opportunity for the Dept of Education to re-advertise the patronage to see if there was a more popular patron, even if it wanted to. All people can do is vote with their feet. If people don't sign up, the school gradually loses public funding for teachers.

So every school is subject to competitive pressures of one sort or another.

loyatemu

Parents have been voting with their feet for years - David's is the only school in town and yet it is never over-subscribed.

clocha_liatha

loyatemu wrote: »

Parents have been voting with their feet for years - David's is the only school in town and yet it is never over-subscribed.

personally speaking i find that lots of people have a very dismissive attitude to Davids and a lot of it is misinformed commentary. For any one looking at Davids as a choice to send their kids to i would definitely recommend it. a fine school and no i don't have a vested interest , just a parent of past pupils who attended the school.

Son of Jack

loyatemu wrote: »

Parents have been voting with their feet for years - David's is the only school in town and yet it is never over-subscribed.

This is not true.

When I first moved to Greystones in 1985 and for many years, St. David's had no shortage of students. There was no guarantee of 'getting in'. They had a waiting list.

I recall before Colaiste Craobh Abhainn in Kilcoole came 'on stream' (September 2003) St. David's was similarly well subscribed to.

Because of the bulge in the population, in the past few years there have been more than 100 first years in the school each year.

When the current 2nd years, and 1st years were applying
because of the need for secondary school places locally,
the BOM obliged and authorised the enrolment of up to 120 students ,
as opposed to the 100 total they would have accepted before.
(I open to correction on the exact numbers)

I voted with my feet and sent my children to St. David's.

I am so glad I did. It gave them a great start.

Listening to the younger one today,
talking about the day he had
and what various teachers had said,
my feeling about the quality of the teaching staff there
was confirmed, yet again.

Talking to those I know who are choosing to send their children to Templecarrig, a number of them said, the fact that it was going to be a small school community (initially) appealed to them. They felt that would suit their children for various reasons.

Choices were made because of what they felt Templecarrig had to offer, rather than any lack on St.David's part.

loyatemu

I'm not having a pop at St David's specifically. However there are 100 less pupils there now than there were 10 years ago and there were even more when I was at the school 20+ years ago - it is well under capacity for whatever reason.

When I was there it had a very strong Catholic ethos and non-catholics were (IMO) badly treated by the nuns who ran the school. I don't know what its like now but their website still makes a big deal of their ethos, and I'd be reluctant to send my non-catholic kids there - at the very least they'd be left out of many activities.