Views on new Templecarrig admission policy

Egalitarian1

Why is it that nobody seems to have batted an eyelid at the Board decision to increase class sizes by 10%. This surely puts all pupils at a disadvantage regardless of their faith.

d2ww

Egalitarian1 wrote: »

Why is it that nobody seems to have batted an eyelid at the Board decision to increase class sizes by 10%. This surely puts all pupils at a disadvantage regardless of their faith.

That's the best news I've heard all day!

recedite

Egalitarian1 wrote: »

the Board decision to increase class sizes by 10%.

Where are you getting this from, and what are the original and the new proposed class sizes?

Egalitarian1

Enrolment for 2014 is capped at 120.

Enrolment for 2015 is 120 & 12 (additional places reserved for certified COI children from outside the catchment area ) = 132

Presumably 2014 4 Classes of 30

2015 4 Classes of 33

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.

FirstIn

recedite wrote: »

No, because she was a citizen travelling on State public transport, so just as entitled as anyone else to a seat, whether paying half fare or full fare.

Exactly. So your argument should be the same for the 100% funded or 90% funded schools. Differentiating due to a financial variance shouldn't have a place in this I think.

The facts are:
Not one person has posted here to say they are entirely happy with the admission policy. We all have issues with it.

I don't agree with any preference for out of town kids at all. It's a local school for local kids.

I do however believe that should it come to it that the school was oversubscribed with local kids that a local COI kid should get in.

Simply because the alternatives for that kid for a COI faith based education are very limited. A RC kid has St David's on their doorstep. Also because the reality is faith based schools the country wide prefer their own and given that's the reality why should this school be any different. In fact given that COI kids are normally disadvantaged isn't it more reason for this school to ensure they give the local COI kids a school of their own faith.

recedite

Egalitarian1 wrote: »

Enrolment for 2015 is 120 & 12 (additional places reserved for certified COI children from outside the catchment area ) = 132

Presumably 2014 4 Classes of 30

2015 4 Classes of 33

The original patronage tender specified a school which would take 800 to 1000 pupils. Assuming the taxpayer gets what they paid for, the school would be operating well below capacity at that 132 per year (792 total pupil population)

I would therefore hazard the guess that, all going well, they intend to boost the 12 annual "specially selected" outside places to 20 for 2016 (or maybe 2017, or whenever all the fuss dies down).
That gives an annual intake of 140, or 5 classes of 28. A nice cosy set-up.
Its only 840 pupils in total, so still at the lower end of the school's capacity, but they won't want to dilute the patron's "ethos" any more than they have to, just to let a few extra locals get a local education.

FirstIn

recedite wrote: »

The original patronage tender specified a school which would take 800 to 1000 pupils. Assuming the taxpayer gets what they paid for, the school would be operating well below capacity at that 132 per year (792 total pupil population)

I would therefore hazard the guess that, all going well, they intend to boost the 12 annual "specially selected" outside places to 20 for 2016 (or maybe 2017, or whenever all the fuss dies down).
That gives an annual intake of 140, or 5 classes of 28. A nice cosy set-up.
Its only 840 pupils in total, so still at the lower end of the school's capacity, but they won't want to dilute the patron's "ethos" any more than they have to, just to let a few extra locals get a local education.

Hang on now.

Argue your point. Predicate it on facts. But to do otherwise is scaremongering. Which is clearly what you're doing.

Egalitarian1

It would be interesting to know if there is any latent capacity 'though.

And if so, why?.

Stallingrad

A petition has been started for the TC admissions policy.

http://www.petitions24.com/temple_carraig_admissions

stilltryingit

Stallingrad wrote: »

A petition has been started for the TC admissions policy.

http://www.petitions24.com/temple_carraig_admissions

Just had a look at the petition, surprised to see so many anonymous signatures. Are people actually afraid to put their name to this?

recedite

The people who would be most concerned about this issue are those living in Greystones/Delgany, with kids in primary school, and who are not card carrying COI adherents. Naturally these parents would be concerned about being put on a blacklist by the BOM of the school.

This is why it is wrong to allow a private interest group to be put in charge of divvying out public resources.

Imagine if a new public health clinic was being built in Greystones, and the Fine Gael party was put in charge of it. And they announced that henceforth people registered with FG would receive treatment first, and if there were spare capacity after that, any other people would be treated.

Hopefully FG members themselves would never try to do such a thing, and in fairness a considerable number of people signing this petition appear to be COI themselves. So this indicates that the school BOM may be representing the interests of the church as an organisation, rather than the people themselves. Also that many of those signing cannot be blacklisted, because they are card carrying COI members, and therefore "entitled" to priority access.

FirstIn

Imagine that most of the public health clinics in the country were run by political parties.
Imagine that most gave preference to their own party members.
Imagine that the state paid for nearly all, so damn close to 100% of the cost of these health clinics.
Imagine then that a small political party were put in charge of a newly opened clinic.
Imagine they then gave some preference to their members.

Just imagine that!

(PS, too much preference in my opinion, i.e for non local kids)

Egalitarian1

The continued attempts to justify blatant discrimination against people that demonstrated clearly with their support that they were without bias is becoming tedious.

These people have never discriminated against you, far from it, they gave you their support.

Being in a minority does not justify discrimination.

stilltryingit

FirstIn wrote: »

Imagine that most of the public health clinics in the country were run by political parties.
Imagine that most gave preference to their own party members.
Imagine that the state paid for nearly all, so damn close to 100% of the cost of these health clinics.
Imagine then that a small political party were put in charge of a newly opened clinic.
Imagine they then gave some preference to their members.

Just imagine that!

(PS, too much preference in my opinion, i.e for non local kids)

Interesting choice of words Firstin!

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

The point here is that the Board of Management decided to renege on the commitment it gave to those who supported it at the bid stage.
It did not keep its word. It has disappointed people before opening its doors.
We are used to this from politicians with their manifestos, somehow a lot of people believed and trusted in the commitments given probably because they were given by the CoI. They asked questions and they accepted the answers that they were given. This action has undermined the Church of Ireland and its ethos.
They have lost the respect and the trust of the community.

FirstIn

Credit were credit is due, recedite was the one that started the imaging. Not me.

I prefer to deal with reality. The reality of how most religious orders run education in this country that is.

The reality is this is the way they operate. Sorry if the truth is tedious.

Serrano13

The Church of Ireland has apparently lost the respect of the local community. And yet Temple Carrig School is oversubscribed to the detriment of St David's.

recedite

Don't kid yourself that non-COI people (ie the vast majority of the population) are subscribing to TC because they really want their kids exposed to the unique religious ethos.
(a)The new school will have the best of facilities; modern classrooms, science labs, computer labs, playing fields, nature trails etc.. and the ordinary taxpayers who are paying for it rightly expect to get some of the benefits.
(b) They probably think, rightly or wrongly, that the COI religious presence will be less intense than the equivalent religious ethos in a school with an RC patron.

The Bishop Basher

recedite wrote: »

Don't kid yourself that non-COI people (ie the vast majority of the population) are subscribing to TC because they really want their kids exposed to the unique religious ethos.

Yet you feel the vast minority of the population (CoI parents) who actually do want to send their children to TC to be educated under their own ethos should be denied places to make way for the above, who don't care either way and have plenty of other choices ?

That's a bizarre position to take for someone so opposed to religious discrimination.

recedite wrote: »

(a)The new school will have the best of facilities; modern classrooms, science labs, computer labs, playing fields, nature trails etc.. and the ordinary taxpayers who are paying for it rightly expect to get some of the benefits.

And they will. So what's your point ?

I really wish you could take the "tax payer" argument out of this. I've already explained how it's completley invalid in this discussion. Everyone pays tax. My tax goes towards plenty of things that I don't directly benefit from. Get over it and move on.

With regard to many of the facilities, I think you'll find that state funding will barely cover the essentials and much of it will be raised by the BOM, parents, voluntary contributions and the community through fundraising etc. On that basis you can choose whether to contribute or not.

stilltryingit

Serrano13 wrote: »

The Church of Ireland has apparently lost the respect of the local community. And yet Temple Carrig School is oversubscribed to the detriment of St David's.

Has St David's been affected? does anyone know whether Temple C was over subscribed for 2015, (all locals were accepted for 2014). Offers were to be posted on Monday of this week as far as I know

Stallingrad

Swanner wrote: »

My tax goes towards plenty of things that I don't directly benefit from. Get over it and move on.

Yes it does, but how would you feel if a pool was built by the Govt on the basis that is was for the general communities use, and once handed over to the local neighborhood to run they in turn changed the swim policy to allow only a certain group get priority? I suspect you would be outraged.

As are we.

recedite

Swanner wrote: »

Yet you feel the vast minority of the population (CoI parents) who actually do want to send their children to TC to be educated under their own ethos should be denied places to make way for the above......

Nobody in the area should be denied a place. People living in other places such as Newcastle and attending the COI primary school there can just as easily go on to East Glendalough school for a COI education.
Why should they be given priority over someone living in Redford or Rathdown estates just down the road from the school. Why should that local child who should be able to walk or cycle to school have to take the bus or Dart out of the area to make room for someone else who has to be driven in to Greystones by car?
Is it because one religion is so much more important than another?

Swanner wrote: »

With regard to many of the facilities, I think you'll find that state funding will barely cover the essentials......

I think you'll find the State is providing a new secondary school for Greystones with all mod cons, and the COI is paying nothing towards it.

The Bishop Basher

Stallingrad wrote: »

Yes it does, but how would you feel if a pool was built by the Govt on the basis that is was for the general communities use, and once handed over to the local neighborhood to run they in turn changed the swim policy to allow only a certain group get priority? I suspect you would be outraged.

As are we.

I've already said that I don't agree with all aspects of the admissions policy, particularly with regard to parish affiliation. Given the numbers involved however, I don't believe it will negatively impact on those trying to get in and TC have said the same. They've also stated that they'll publish the figures retrospectively to back this up.

So with regard to your swimming pool analogy, we'd all get in for a swim at some point anyway so what's the problem ?

The Bishop Basher

recedite wrote: »

Nobody in the area should be denied a place. People living in other places such as Newcastle and attending the COI primary school there can just as easily go on to East Glendalough school for a COI education.
Why should they be given priority over someone living in Redford or Rathdown estates just down the road from the school. Why should that local child who should be able to walk or cycle to school have to take the bus or Dart out of the area to make room for someone else who has to be driven in to Greystones by car?
Is it because one religion is so much more important than another?.

Agreed. Local children should have priority over those from oustide the area. But that cuts both ways. Why should a CoI child have to travel outside of their own area to recieve a CoI education when there's a school offering it in the locality. Bear in mind, this has always been an issue. Every town has a local RC school so for the majority of the population, it's taken for granted. Many CoI parents have had to opt for boarding or fee paying in order to get the same rights for their own children at considerable extra expense.

This is down to the numbers involved obviously but it's the reality nevertheless.

recedite wrote: »

I think you'll find the State is providing a new secondary school for Greystones with all mod cons, and the COI is paying nothing towards it.

I don't get your hang up with this. What's wrong with the state providing educational facilities for all the children of the island who lets remember should be cherished equally as per the consitution.

Look at the scandals in the RC church and the subsequent payments to the victims. Who paid for that ? The RC church ? No. We did. You and I. Is that fair ? Of course not but were grown ups so we accept not everything in life is fair and move on.

This admissions policy, while obviously flawed in parts, is trying to protect a minority's ability to recieve an education of their ethos in their area while also catering for all of the community. The figures will tell us whether they've got it right or not. If they've got it wrong I sincerely hope they reconsider for the following year.

recedite

Swanner wrote: »

I don't get your hang up with this. What's wrong with the state providing educational facilities for all the children of the island who lets remember should be cherished equally as per the consitution.

Yes, "cherished equally". If they were all being treated equally, there would be no discrimination, and no problem. Nobody would ask for their religion, or look to see what colour their skin was.

Wicklow Will

You know what, I've tried biting my tongue and being objective but I've seen such blind and intransigent begrudgery in so many of the posts here that I have to speak my mind, plain and simple - no measured tones or weighed words! So, here it is:

1)There has been a lot of scaremongering here about the Protestants grabbing the places in this school, which is funded by the department of education, at the expense of the Roman Catholic kids, the Muslim kids, the Jewish, the Atheist kids and the agnostic kids!!

2)There have been those too who have jumped up and down about the fact that its tax payers money which has gone to fund the school so, because of this, the kids from the small Protestant community in Greystones and its hinterland shouldn't get first refusal on places in the school run by the CoI BOM but take their chances in the open lottery.

These essentially are the main gripes of the objectors.

So, in response to No. 1 above let me ask, not just the objectors here but anyone else who may read this thread the following questions to make you think... To read the objectors posts you'd think that this was A) being done in a banana republic, run by a junta. the CoI won the patronage fair and square in an open contest. C) these Protestants to whom you're referring as tho they were the mafia are actually your friends, neighbours, relations ... people you've known all your lives. Do you HONESTLY think they are going to set up a system that will deliberately disenfranchise the children of the area where they and you live? Of course not! The CoI have already said that there will be a significant, openly viewable allocation for non CoI kids. This is there for everyone to see on their website. As people know, the roll for 2014 and I think 2015 are, I think I'm right in saying, fully subscribed. Question: to what denomination do the majority of kids in the area belong? Answer: Roman Catholic.

If there was no "weighting" of places in a small number, in favour of Protestant kids and the initial applications were all from kids of other denominations to the exclusion of Protestant kids, wouldn't this totally defeat the objectives of having a CoI run secondary school in the area!?! D) Are there other Roman Catholic secondary schools within a 10km area, to cater for kids from this denomination? Answer: Yes!! E)
Are there other Non denominational secondary schools within a 10km area? Yes!!

If it had been the Ghael Scoil movement who had won the patronage and they insisted on your kids being taught through Ghaelige rather than English would you have vented your collective spleens so much?

Why was it, if you distrust the CoI population SO much you supported their application to secure the patronage?

2) So it's taxpayers money funding this. This should mean then that anything to do with a particular denomination / ethos / culture shouldn't be funded !?! I'll try and overlook this the next time the GAA, of which I'm not a great admirer or Foras na Gaelige which doesn't really float my boat either, receive tax payers money in grant side, yet I'm not a subscriber to their respective ethos but I am a tax payer!

Has anyone asked St David's if their enrolment is full for 2014/2015?!?

I think most will get my point.

I think it's time for the begrudgers to put up or shut up now at this stage. Stop creating ill will and scaremongering. As I said earlier, if you don't have faith or trust in the CoI community to be fair and just WHY did you support them in seeking the patronage in the first place? You hardly thought you were going to get a non denominational school by suppporting it did you. That'd be like going to the butchers, buying a leg of lamb and complaining when you went home that he hadn't given you a side of salmon! I honestly would like to know the real motivation behind your campaign?

Egalitarian1

" the CoI won the patronage fair and square in an open contest "

The problem is that the contest that the COI "won" was the right to run a Second level school providing places for all the children of the 7 Feeder schools in Greystones.

It would not have been possible for the COI to even enter this competition if they had proposed a school that catered primarily for the COI children in the North Wicklow area.

Based on the COI population of Greystones (Just above 10%) it would also not be possible to win this competition without the support of the whole community.

In order to enter this competition the COI put a proposal to the community as a whole that they would like to open a school that would be under their ethos but would crucially be "not a protestant school for protestant children"
This mantra was the lynchpin of the proposal put to both the parents of Greystones and the Dept of Education.

With this reassurance the wholehearted support of the community was given.

The root of the current problem is that the COI community see TC as "a protestant school for protestant children" and the rest of the community see it as a school run by the COI for the whole community i.e. "not a protestant school for protestant children" as promised.

Under the terms of the competition won it should not be inconceivable that a COI child should have to take the same chance as any other child.

This is the compromise made in order to win this competition and can not be ignored after the event.

The Bishop Basher

Egalitarian1 wrote: »

The root of the current problem is that the COI community see TC as "a protestant school for protestant children"

That statement is blatantly untrue.

Anyone in the CoI community that I have spoken to wants to see a school that serves the whole community and is inclusive of people of all faiths and none.

Many of them have expressed concerns over aspects of the new admissions policy.

Let's not tar a whole community for the decisions taken by a select few in the BoM.

Egalitarian1

Swanner wrote: »

Let's not tar a whole community for the decisions taken by a select few in the BoM.

Reasonable point. No offence meant.

recedite

Wicklow Will wrote: »

If it had been the Ghael Scoil movement who had won the patronage and they insisted on your kids being taught through Ghaelige rather than English would you have vented your collective spleens so much?

If it was a Gaelscoil that afterwards decided to give priority admission to Roman Catholics (thereby discriminating against children of Protestants and others) then yes, I would object to that particular policy.

Wicklow Will wrote: »

So it's taxpayers money funding this. This should mean then that anything to do with a particular denomination / ethos / culture shouldn't be funded !?! I'll try and overlook this the next time the GAA, of which I'm not a great admirer....

Again you are missing the point. You may not choose to support the GAA, but if you do choose to join, they will not say "Wait until we see how many catholics want to join this year. If there is any room left after that, you can join". Not only that, but the GAA only receives a State subsidy; it is largely self financing.

The bottom line is; if something is 100% funded from the public purse, all citizens should have equal access to that service or facility.

FirstIn

"The bottom line is; if something is 100% funded from the public purse, all citizens should have equal access to that service or facility"

And for all the other faith based schools that are really damn close to 100% state funded that favour their own. Should they give equal access? Is the 100% number really important. What % do you make it ok to prioritise at.

I really think bringing the funding in undermines your argument.