Views on new Templecarrig admission policy

loyatemu

Alan_P wrote: »

That's not true. My daughter was refused a place in St. David's in 2012, on the grounds it was full.

very surprised to hear that as David's currently has 100 fewer pupils than it had a decade ago (and fewer still than when I was there in the 90s), so the building certainly isn't full.

It may be to do with student/teacher ratios (i.e. they would need to take in X number of extra students to get an extra teacher).

liamf

loyatemu wrote: »

very surprised to hear that as David's currently has 100 fewer pupils than it had a decade ago (and fewer still than when I was there in the 90s), so the building certainly isn't full.

It may be to do with student/teacher ratios (i.e. they would need to take in X number of extra students to get an extra teacher).

A decade ago St. Davids was not well viewed.

Since then, there is a new principal, a lot of the old teachers have retired and there are a load of new, young, enthusiastic teachers in the place, their academic results have improved a lot.

Basically the school has just got better ...

So now it's viewed more favourably by local parents.

loyatemu

liamf wrote: »

A decade ago St. Davids was not well viewed.

Since then, there is a new principal, a lot of the old teachers have retired and there are a load of new, young, enthusiastic teachers in the place, their academic results have improved a lot.

Basically the school has just got better ...

So now it's viewed more favourably by local parents.

why has it got fewer pupils than a decade ago then? and (per earlier post) the vast majority of local 6th class pupils are applying to Temple Carrig?

also regardless of admissions policy, based on the school's website I would not send my kids there unless I was an enthusiastic catholic.

liamf

loyatemu wrote: »

why has it got fewer pupils than a decade ago then? and (per earlier post) the vast majority of local 6th class pupils are applying to Temple Carrig?

also regardless of admissions policy, based on the school's website I would not send my kids there unless I was an enthusiastic catholic.

I expect (although I do not know for certain) that this is simply because there are fewer pupils in 5th and 6th years than there are in 1st year, and that the school limits the intake into 1st year to be the maximum they want per year.

If a school has space for 700, and currently has 500 pupils attending, that obviously does not mean that they "fix" this by taking in 200 first years ...

loyatemu

there are literally hundreds of kids leaving the town to go to school in the morning, and the new school is oversubscribed.

Meanwhile David's is operating well below its physical capacity and with a lot fewer students than in the past. Whatever way you look at it, that reflects badly on David's ability to meet the needs of the local community.

Recent events have shown there is substantial demand in the town for a CoI school and an Educate Together/Non-denominational school - maybe David's should be handed over to ET?

FirstIn

recedite wrote: »

Not for you anyway, you''ll be first in on the basis of the religious discrimination.
The bottom line is; discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation is always unacceptable where something is in public ownership and is publicly funded.

The bottom line is for faith based school admissions it's common practice.

Public funds are funds from you and me. My funds help pay for 98% of the cost of running public schools. Most of these schools are faith based RC schools that discriminate in favour of their own.

I agree with you that there should not be religious discrimination. If all the Faith based schools were forced to drop it that would be great. But that won't happen when the situation suits the majority. It's just in this instance it's working against the majority.

recedite

FirstIn wrote: »

If all the Faith based schools were forced to drop it that would be great. But that won't happen when the situation suits the majority. It's just in this instance it's working against the majority.

True, but two "wrongs" don't make a "right". What you describe is called the tyranny of the majority and its the reason a Republic always has a written Constitution, or a Bill of rights; to protect its minority groups.

Comparing TC specifically to the only other secondary school in town;
1. St. Davids does not use religious discrimination in the admission policy.
2. St. Davids is not publicly owned and built.

A lot of people (myself included) would say that ideally there should be at least one public school of a "neutral ethos" in every town before any faith schools get any teacher funding.
Then at least there would be a choice, as to whether to attend either of them.

FirstIn

Do you a really believe that if there was a place left to fill in St David's and there was a RC kid and a non RC kid going for that place they'd have equal chances of getting it? I very much doubt it. (All other things being equal)

Also in your scenario of choice between a non faith based and a faith based school (most likely RC) in an area where would you expect COI kids to go?

I'd say to the non faith school.

Now take the situation where we have an "enthusiastically Catholic" RC school and a COI faith school. Where would you expect the COI kids to go?

To end up going to the local RC school wouldn't make sense.

And to be clear, as it stands none of my kids will be Firstin!

Son of Jack

In defence of St.David's:
I have children attending there.
They have been very happy there.

Currently there may well be a hundred students less than ten years ago,
my own understanding is
that when the current 2nd years, and 1st years were applying
because of the need for secondary school places locally,
the BOM obliged and authorised the enrolment of up to 120 students ,
as opposed to the 100 total they would have accepted before.
(I open to correction on the exact numbers)
This compares to the Leaving Cert year 2011 when there were 60 students in 6th year.
It may be that the numbers in St. David's are high in the younger classes
and lower in the senior ones, so that all in all there are that hundred less students.

I would think that having less students than ten years ago,
in no way reflects the high standards in the school.
The demand for places because of necessity/population growth apart,
many parents applied for places in St.David's in recent years,
because they have heard of the improvements there
since the arrival of the 'new' principal in 2005.

I see that my own children and their friends; all very different,
with different interests and abilities find their own 'niche' in the school
and are content and achieving and the pastoral care there is second to none.
Attending Parent Teacher meetings there I am always impressed by
how well the teachers know my children,
how well they monitor their progress
and that they care about their students.

My own children come from a 'mixed' religious background i.e. Christian and none.
Myself or my partner have never had an issue with the religious ethos.
There is respect there for all religions and none.

Edited to add: Children leave Greystones to attend secondary school in other places for many reasons: Some parents prefer a single sex school, others are following their children's interests in rugby. Then there are parents who will send their children further afield so that they get their education through Irish. Is it fair to say that children doing this reflects badly on St.David's ability to meet the needs of the local community?

Back on topic: With regard to the changes in Temple Carrig's enrolment policy, I think it was disingenuous of them to do this.

recedite

FirstIn wrote: »

Also in your scenario of choice between a non faith based and a faith based school (most likely RC) in an area where would you expect COI kids to go?
I'd say to the non faith school.

I don't know which one they would choose, but I assume probably the neutral school, and then they could get their religion outside of school hours.

Imagine a scenario where there was choice between a non faith based and a Sunni muslim faith based school in an area. Where would you expect Shia muslim kids to go?
The whole thing gets kinda ridiculous if you demand a different school for every religious group.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

The bottom line is; discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation is always unacceptable where something is in public ownership and is publicly funded.

I don't really disagree with you on that as a substantive issue but the reality is, it is acceptable under law.

sso

What about children of different Faiths? There are no schools for which these children will be on an "A" list. Educate together operates a first come first served policy. That's great if you knew that when your child was a week old!

How do you think it makes a child feel to know that their education can only happen in their home town if they are let in generously as "second choice" by a school? I have no problem with religion being taught in school. I don't mind schools having a particular religious ethos. I like the idea of my child being exposed to different faiths. However, it feels very unfair that unless you are catholic or COI you're automatically "b"-listed. Surely we should be celebrating diversity and making every child feel valued and welcomed.

stilltryingit

loyatemu wrote: »

there are literally hundreds of kids leaving the town to go to school in the morning, and the new school is oversubscribed.

Meanwhile David's is operating well below its physical capacity and with a lot fewer students than in the past. Whatever way you look at it, that reflects badly on David's ability to meet the needs of the local community.

Recent events have shown there is substantial demand in the town for a CoI school and an Educate Together/Non-denominational school - maybe David's should be handed over to ET?

The Kilcoole secondary school was not there 10 years ago and St Davids met the needs of pupils from Kilcoole as well which is probably why their numbers are a bit lower now. Also I don't think that transition year is compulsory there as it is in many schools so this means that numbers vary a lot at the senior end.
I know many people with children in St David's and have heard nothing but praise for the school

stilltryingit

FirstIn wrote: »

Do you a really believe that if there was a place left to fill in St David's and there was a RC kid and a non RC kid going for that place they'd have equal chances of getting it? I very much doubt it. (All other things being equal)

Also in your scenario of choice between a non faith based and a faith based school (most likely RC) in an area where would you expect COI kids to go?

I'd say to the non faith school.

Now take the situation where we have an "enthusiastically Catholic" RC school and a COI faith school. Where would you expect the COI kids to go?

To end up going to the local RC school wouldn't make sense.

And to be clear, as it stands none of my kids will be Firstin!

Please look at St David's admissions policy, in the scenario you outline above the child who gets the place will be the child who applied earlier. No religion is prioritised in that school.

milosh

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

Just to give you an example of one Greystones 6th class. 3 are going to fee paying schools, 27 to TC and 1 to David's.

One of the COI schools surely? Highly unlikely that nobody is going to Pres or Loreto given the high numbers that travel in to Bray already.

FirstIn

stilltryingit wrote: »

Please look at St David's admissions policy, in the scenario you outline above the child who gets the place will be the child who applied earlier. No religion is prioritised in that school.

Firstly I did say all things being equal. Secondly I don't believe everything I read ( is someone independently recording the delivery of the applications?)

Regardless we're not comparing like with like. St David's will always be massively RC. So few non RC kids will apply that it's a mute point. Also most years they run below capacity so everyone gets in.

I hope too that all wishing to will get in to TC. I also believe that local kids should be prioritised over kids from out of the area (regardless of who they are, rector's son/daughter in other parishes etc..) There's plenty in the admission policy I don't agree with.

But having a local COI kid not get in to the local COI secondary school would be wrong. What options do they then have for local non faith based or COI based schooling? None.

A RC kid has.

stilltryingit

FirstIn wrote: »

Firstly I did say all things being equal. Secondly I don't believe everything I read ( is someone independently recording the delivery of the applications?)

Regardless we're not comparing like with like. St David's will always be massively RC. So few non RC kids will apply that it's a mute point. Also most years they run below capacity so everyone gets in.

I hope too that all wishing to will get in to TC. I also believe that local kids should be prioritised over kids from out of the area (regardless of who they are, rector's son/daughter in other parishes etc..) There's plenty in the admission policy I don't agree with.

But having a local COI kid not get in to the local COI secondary school would be wrong. What options do they then have for local non faith based or COI based schooling? None.

A RC kid has.

I think you have hit on the heart of the matter here,my belief is that children in category 2 should only be awarded places if there is room after children from the 7 local schools have been admitted.

recedite

mango salsa wrote: »

I don't really disagree with you on that as a substantive issue but the reality is, it is acceptable under law.

It may well be illegal under constitutional law, but we have already been over that earlier in this thread. Until someone takes a test case on the issue (not just TC school, but theoretically any publicly owned school with ambitions to discriminate)we won't know for sure.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

It may well be illegal under constitutional law, but we have already been over that earlier in this thread. Until someone takes a test case on the issue (not just TC school, but theoretically any publicly owned school with ambitions to discriminate)we won't know for sure.

I give up. I don't see any legal issue here at all and I see no difference between public v private.

recedite

No difference at all between State land and private land?
No difference between a facility built with public money on State land and a facility built by a religious group on their own private land with their own money?

potpourri

mango salsa wrote: »

I give up. I don't see any legal issue here at all and I see no difference between public v private.

This thread is very revealing!

expectationlost

is there a link to the original admissions polcy they used to pitch the school with? apart from this, if there is one with detailed categories http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88012884&postcount=90

stilltryingit

The 2014 policy has been taken down as its no longer relevant but I am sure that the school would supply a copy if you asked, the main difference is that in 2014 the board was to select randomly , regardless of religion,if category 1 was over subscribed and in 2015 they will prioritise COI kids.
Also 2014 did not include a special allocation of 12 places for COI children from outside the local boundaries.

expectationlost wrote: »

is there a link to the original admissions polcy they use to pitch the school with? apart from this, ont that detailed the categories http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88012884&postcount=90

expectationlost

stilltryingit wrote: »

The 2014 policy has been taken down as its no longer relevant but I am sure that the school would supply a copy if you asked, the main difference is that in 2014 the board was to select randomly , regardless of religion,if category 1 was over subscribed and in 2015 they will prioritise COI kids.
Also 2014 did not include a special allocation of 12 places for COI children from outside the local boundaries.

ok point me to the page it was on thanks

recedite

See post #108 for the original 2014 admissions policy.

Its on the school website now that applications for 2015 are already closed.
Presumably all places are now taken. No mention of how many were allotted in the new Category Zero, or how many from Cat 2 were moved ahead of Cat I under the special provisions.

Closing down applications this early will contravene draft guidelines that are being brought in by Dept. of Education. While these may not be in force yet, they may well be in place before the school opens for 2014.

The Minister aims to improve the admissions process to ensure that the way schools decide on applications is structured, fair and transparent. ...
The draft regulations seek to bring a level playing pitch for families newly settled or returning to live in an area and to ensure a parent's income or ability to pay admission fees cannot be a factor that will determine school admission. The regulations will also bring an end to the "soft barriers" that can affect children with special educational needs.
Under the proposals:
Schools would not be allowed to accept applications for admission before October 1st of the year preceding the year of enrolment with a longer period allowed for boarding schools.
The Minister may regulate that no admission fees may be sought or charged as a condition of application for admission to a school.

• Schools would not be able to conduct interviews with parents and children ahead of enrolment
• Schools that can establish that they have waiting lists in place may, under a derogation, be allowed to clear those lists over a period of a few years
• Schools will be allowed to prioritise places for an applicant who is a sibling of an existing or former student
• Appeals to be dealt with at school level under simplified arrangements.

"I believe there is a better way of dealing with school admissions. These measures are about what might be described as 'good housekeeping' and will bring about greater transparency, fairness and consistency in the way schools operate their admission processes," Minister Quinn said.

- See more at: http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2013-Press-Releases/PR13-09-02.html#sthash.ZH81LrKL.dpuf

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

No difference at all between State land and private land?
No difference between a facility built with public money on State land and a facility built by a religious group on their own private land with their own money?

You are creating a difference. There is no difference in law.

stilltryingit

recedite wrote: »

See post #108 for the original 2014 admissions policy.

Its on the school website now that applications for 2015 are already closed.
Presumably all places are now taken. No mention of how many were allotted in the new Category Zero, or how many from Cat 2 were moved ahead of Cat I under the special provisions.

Closing down applications this early will contravene draft guidelines that are being brought in by Dept. of Education. While these may not be in force yet, they may well be in place before the school opens for 2014.
- See more at: http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2013-Press-Releases/PR13-09-02.html#sthash.ZH81LrKL.dpuf

Thanks for that Recedite, looks like they plan to push through what they can before the new guidelines take effect. What a way to start a new school, one would imagine they would be trying to get things right.

FirstIn

I read the new guidelines. I can't see them making much difference. Nothing in them re how schools actually decide on who gets in. It mentions housekeeping. They don't appear to go any further than that.

stilltryingit

FirstIn wrote: »

I read the new guidelines. I can't see them making much difference. Nothing in them re how schools actually decide on who gets in. It mentions housekeeping. They don't appear to go any further than that.

Guidelines are much more about the process, they seem to include things like not enrolling until 11 months prior to 1st year, consulting parents to ask their views, not prioritising the children of members of management. I hope that Temple Carrig will change their current process to comply with whatever the final version of the guidelines is.

recedite

Its all about transparency and fairness. Not prioritising management is one thing. Not interviewing people before places are allocated to see if they are "the right sort" is another.
Allocating places years in advance discriminates against people newly moving into an area. Even though they could be living next door to the school, they would not get a place for their kids.
Also its too easy for schools to say to parents they didn't get a place because they were "too far down the waiting list". People have been told this in the past even when they applied shortly after the childs birth. Its a catch-all excuse to cover up the fact that certain other people have been bumped up the list over the years by the Principal or BOM, all done on the quiet.