Views on new Templecarrig admission policy

stilltryingit

From what I hear St David's is a very welcoming school for children of all faiths and none. Almost all schools have an ethos of some sort of religion. I have friends with kids in St Davids who are non-believers and they find it far more inclusive and their children are not left out of anything. I imagine it has changed quite a bit, as Ireland has, in 20 + years!

Cheeky Chops

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

"It has been suggested that we should allow Navy shoes as well as Black – presumably so that “Dubes” can be worn."

Nice to see the school has correct priorities.

That is really unfair. That newsletter was primarily written for parents of kids starting in September. This is the time when we are all thinking about uniform and the principal was passing on a decision that will save money for parents. You've taken it out of context.

Son of Jack

Great that parents in Greystones have a choice in where their children are educated.

The parents who have chosen Templecarrig have done so for what the new school has to offer

rather than any lack in St. David's.

There is a novelty in the new.


The top two reasons I have heard from friends who are sending their children there are

1. that they like the idea of their child being in a small school community

2. their child's friends are going there.

St. David's can't be a small school community so there is no competition there

and their choice is no reflection on St. David's.


Children have gone to secondary school outside Greystones

because their parents have a preference for

- private schools

- single sex schools

- the school with a tradition of playing rugby

- education through Irish

- a particular 'faith'

- a non or multi-denominational approach

- the school that they went to themselves.

Parents are entitled to do this and once again

their choice is no reflection on St.David's.


My children come from what was known back in the day as a 'mixed marriage'.

They were never left out of any activity on account of religion (or any other reason).


There are no nuns in St. David's now.

However, I have spoken to older folk who would remember a time when Greystones

wasn't as 'prosperous' (I used the phrase advisedly given we are in recession.)

They would say that nuns who ran the school educated generation after generation of students

who went on to qualify in trades and professions and become successful; the backbone of this

and other communities.

Jesse19

I was COI and had to go to a private school (many others were sent to COI boarding school) as there were no other local options
EGS serves a huge catchment area for COI and other Protestant churches in the south Wicklow area. It is surely only fair that the North Wicklow COI kids have first refusal to TC when there are so many RC schools in the locality. Is there something amiss with St David's, Loreto, Pres, St Kilians etc etc that this frenzy is happening. Also why do so many RC parents want to send their kids to COI national schools?

stilltryingit

This new school was established to serve the Greystones/Delgany area and not just the CoI community.The issue here is that the group who campaigned for the patronage of this new school were asked if they would use religion to select pupils and they stated that they would not (at several meetings held locally) so, people had an expectation that this commitment would be honoured.
Its also useful to remember that there are many people in the area who are neither CoI or RC.
I imagine that any parent who wants to send their child to a CoI primary school is either CoI or else just wants their child to attend the nearest school.The sooner we can separate education and religion the better. It seems a bit drastic to me to send your child off to boarding school just to ensure that they can be brought up/educated in a particular faith. Surely parents can undertake that part themselves by bringing the child to services etc and sharing their beliefs with them?

Jesse19

I agree that in an ideal world the schools would be run independently of the churches as I know that many minority Protestant children are having difficulty getting placed in CofI National schools. I would love to see schools being independent of churches while children were taught about all religions.
However I still feel with regard to TC (and I will have no one attending it) there are at least 6 schools in Bray/greystones serving RC/non denominational children while the nearest for ANY Protestant child is EGS r Newpark

Annasopra

stilltryingit wrote: »

This new school was established to serve the Greystones/Delgany area and not just the CoI community.The issue here is that the group who campaigned for the patronage of this new school were asked if they would use religion to select pupils and they stated that they would not (at several meetings held locally) so, people had an expectation that this commitment would be honoured.
Its also useful to remember that there are many people in the area who are neither CoI or RC.
I imagine that any parent who wants to send their child to a CoI primary school is either CoI or else just wants their child to attend the nearest school.The sooner we can separate education and religion the better. It seems a bit drastic to me to send your child off to boarding school just to ensure that they can be brought up/educated in a particular faith. Surely parents can undertake that part themselves by bringing the child to services etc and sharing their beliefs with them?

I honestly don't understand why people who wanted a non religious school supported a COI school above ET or VEC.

Jesse19

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I honestly don't understand why people who wanted a non religious school supported a COI school above ET or VEC.

Yup

Zoo4m8

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I honestly don't understand why people who wanted a non religious school supported a COI school above ET or VEC.

Absolutely, I don't understand it either and particularly with an all inclusive ET as an alternative and by all accounts doing a great job...

recedite

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I honestly don't understand why people who wanted a non religious school supported a COI school above ET or VEC.

There is no evidence that they did, so why do you say that?
A better question to ask is which patron did the large number of RC parents vote for, and why. Bearing in mind that the Dept. of Education did not include any overtly RC patronage in the choice at the time (because the objective was to provide an alternative to the only other school in town)

BTW the ET schools are the only secondary schools in Ireland that do not include religious instruction (as opposed to the Leaving Cert subject RE or "Religious Education" as a normal part of the school day.

Religious instruction is where a particular religious viewpoint is taught as fact.
All ETB/VEC Schools and Colleges at second level are obliged to ensure that there is religious worship and religious instruction in the school, although they don't generally advertise this fact.
But they don't generally have a religious "ethos" pervading the entire workings of the school, and they don't tolerate any kind of religious discrimination in their admissions policy.
ETB/VEC schools combine the Religious Education course under the curriculum with Religious Instruction and present this to all the parents as suitable for their children. They are also obliged to employ Religious Education teachers approved by "a competent religious authority", which is normally the Roman Catholic Church, it being the dominant religion. So their religion teachers are all trained up by the RCC.
ETB/VEC schools are basically "RC Lite"; and not the same as ET at all.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

There is no evidence that they did, so why do you say that?

Thats my impression from some comments on here and a few people I've spoken to locally.

I'm confused about the rest of your post. My understanding is that there are at present no ET secondary schools in the country.

recedite

ET have the same policy for their new secondary schools as they have for existing primary schools. There is one allocated for Bray which, like TCG, has not been built yet.

It was only in the last year or so that ET started bidding for the patronage of secondary schools, and ETB/VEC started bidding for primary schools, which has put them into direct competition with each other for the first time.

All the works are funded by the taxpayer of course, but it seems to be a "winner takes all" attitude is developing among some patrons once they "win" the patronage, with little regard to the wishes of the whole community. So really those people who are lucky enough to be invited to vote (ie only the parents of younger primary school children) should be careful to research exactly what they are voting for.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

ET have the same policy for their new secondary schools as they have for existing primary schools. There is one allocated for Bray which, like TCG, has not been built yet.

It was only in the last year or so that ET started bidding for the patronage of secondary schools, and ETB/VEC started bidding for primary schools, which has put them into direct competition with each other for the first time.

All the works are funded by the taxpayer of course, but it seems to be a "winner takes all" attitude is developing among some patrons once they "win" the patronage, with little regard to the wishes of the whole community. So really those people who are lucky enough to be invited to vote (ie only the parents of younger primary school children) should be careful to research exactly what they are voting for.

Right ok. So your post above was not exactly correct given that there are no ET secondary schools in the country yet. I dont understand how you can compare a type of school with a non existant type of school!

zanador

recedite wrote: »

There is no evidence that they did, so why do you say that?
Bearing in mind that the Dept. of Education did not include any overtly RC patronage in the choice at the time (because the objective was to provide an alternative to the only other school in town)

The Department of Education didn't choose a Catholic school because the Catholic patron didn't apply for the school - only ET, CoI and VEC applied - the DES doesn't get to say who applies, they only get to make a choice out of those that apply

zanador

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I honestly don't understand why people who wanted a non religious school supported a COI school above ET or VEC.

I don't think they did. Those that wanted a secular school went on the ET/VEC lists. However the reasons that the CoI was chosen by parents weren't necessarily about religion. One reason would be the unknown quantity of ET at 2nd Level combined with the good academic record of CoI schools. Another would be the fact that the Catholic national schools got behind the CoI application for whatever reason.

recedite wrote: »

ET have the same policy for their new secondary schools as they have for existing primary schools. There is one allocated for Bray which, like TCG, has not been built yet.

The school's location has not been confirmed as Bray yet.

recedite

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Right ok. So your post above was not exactly correct given that there are no ET secondary schools in the country yet. I dont understand how you can compare a type of school with a non existant type of school!

To be fair, even the COI agrees that it is going to be a new type of school anyway. It is the first school to be built entirely by the State and managed by the COI. During the bidding process, the COI said they would not be applying the same religious policies that apply in (privately owned) East Glendalough school, for this reason.

ET as a patron has always had a completely transparent admissions policy which is 100% free of discrimination. They will be managing two new secondary schools this September, and are involved in another 5 due to open in 2015 and 2016.

The 2015 intake for TCG gives some idea of who might have voted for what. Looking at the table in the TCG newsletter;

Nobody from the Gaelscoil even applied for a place in TCG, so we can safely assume they were not big supporters of the COI bid.
The two COI schools are sending 20-21 from each, which represents about two thirds of their number. One third have chosen to go elsewhere. It does not exactly square up with the argument presented by some posters here that the local COI population is in desperate need of a secondary school of their own ethos. From talking to people I get the impression that the % choosing TCG from COI primary schools will rise in a couple of years after the building work is finished and they move out of the pre-fab.

16 places from ET national school, just over half a class.

All the rest, comprising the majority of the 2015 intake, from the three RC primary schools. So why would these vote for a COI patron? Again, from talking to people, I get the impression that COI was seen as more "up-market" than VEC, and therefore preferable, so long as no religious discrimination was stipulated in the admissions policy.
Also it is true that ET as a patron has no track record at managing secondary schools, which would go against them to some extent.

stilltryingit

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I honestly don't understand why people who wanted a non religious school supported a COI school above ET or VEC.

Quite a few people changed their preference from ET to CoI after they were assured that religion would not be used to select pupils. They were also told by CoI that Educate together would draw children from outside the area. So, from speaking to people, those who supported CoI did so in order to ensure that Greystones, with its increasing population would have enough Second level places to serve the area.
Also as others have stated ET at second level is still an unknown quantity, though, judging from their performance at primary level I am sure they will do very well again at post primary

FirstIn

stilltryingit wrote: »

Quite a few people changed their preference from ET to CoI after they were assured that religion would not be used to select pupils. They were also told by CoI that Educate together would draw children from outside the area. So, from speaking to people, those who supported CoI did so in order to ensure that Greystones, with its increasing population would have enough Second level places to serve the area.
Also as others have stated ET at second level is still an unknown quantity, though, judging from their performance at primary level I am sure they will do very well again at post primary

Are you serious? People wanting a non religious based school voted for the one religious body tendering for the patronage. Now that's something!

sinkadinka

FirstIn wrote: »

Are you serious? People wanting a non religious based school voted for the one religious body tendering for the patronage. Now that's something!

Speaking as a parent of a non COI child I didn't "vote" for non religion when I voted for COI Patronage ....I voted based on what I was led to believe at meetings I attended.... TC was to include all children of the national schools of Greystones regardless of their religion. It was reiterated at a meeting I attended in st Patrick's school by those chairing the meeting that TC was for all the children of the Greystones catchment area and religion denomination did not come into it.... more fool me. At this point I feel disappointed and let down that COI gained patronage of our new secondary under false promises and I hope that down the line I am proven wrong and that a fair admissions policy is put in place to serve the whole of the Greystones community despite religious denomination.

recedite

The United Nations High Commission for Human Rights has just finished investigating Ireland for possible breaches of internationally accepted standards of human rights, on various issues, including the State education system.

The findings re state schools;

Freedom of Religion, 21
..It is also concerned about the slow progress in increasing access to secular education through the establishment of non-denominational schools, divestment of the patronage of schools and the phasing out of integrated religious curricula in schools accommodating minority faith or non-faith children. It expresses further concern that under Section 37(1) of the Employment Equality Acts, religious-owned institutions, including in the fields of education and health, can discriminate against employees or prospective employees to protect the religious ethos of the institution...

...It should also introduce legislation to prohibit discrimination in access to schools on the grounds of religion, belief or other status, and ensure that there are diverse school types and curriculum options available throughout the State party to meet the needs of minority faith or non-faith children...

...The Committee requests the State party to provide in its next periodic report, due for submission on 31 July 2019, specific, up-to-date information on the implementation of all its recommendations and on the Covenant as a whole. The Committee also requests the State party, when preparing its next periodic report, to broadly consult civil society and non-governmental organizations operating in the country.

source

Annasopra

Interesting

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/catholic-first-school-admissions-policies-may-be-illegal-1.2053401

Huntthe

recedite wrote: »

The United Nations High Commission for Human Rights has just finished investigating Ireland for possible breaches of internationally accepted standards of human rights, on various issues, including the State education system.

The findings re state schools;



source

The UN is morally bankrupt and best ignored.

zanador

Huntthe wrote: »

The UN is morally bankrupt and best ignored.

Why?

mrbrianj

recedite wrote: »

Nobody from the Gaelscoil even applied for a place in TCG, so we can safely assume they were not big supporters of the COI bid.

The numbers in the senior classes in the Gaelscoil are still very small. Last year was the first 6th to finish. On such a small sample number its not safe to assume anything.

loyatemu

mrbrianj wrote: »

The numbers in the senior classes in the Gaelscoil are still very small. Last year was the first 6th to finish. On such a small sample number its not safe to assume anything.

They'd also be more likely to go onto a Gael Colaiste (not sure where the nearest one is).

zanador

loyatemu wrote: »

They'd also be more likely to go onto a Gael Colaiste (not sure where the nearest one is).

Colaiste Rathin in Bray.

It is going to get interesting in 2017 because both the Gaelscoil and ET will have two streams leaving.

loyatemu

zanador wrote:

It is going to get interesting in 2017 because both the Gaelscoil and ET will have two streams leaving.

the ET secondary school will be open by then.

David's needs to sort itself out, apparently only 40 or so students starting 1st year in 2015.

It may be a better school than its reputation suggests, but it's completely failing to sell itself to the very people it was created for - Catholic parishioners. If the current management can't increase demand for places there then it should be handed over to the ETB or Educate Together.

zanador

loyatemu wrote: »

the ET secondary school will be open by then.

We're not in the catchment for that though and it may not take much pressure off, depending on a) uptake and b) location. Most parents in our school would seem to prefer TC

sinkadinka

Now that the places have been allocated for 2016 does anyone know how many children are currently on waiting lists? I would be interested to know how many kids that were on a waiting list for 2015 how many did get a place.

loyatemu

sinkadinka wrote: »

Now that the places have been allocated for 2016 does anyone know how many children are currently on waiting lists? I would be interested to know how many kids that were on a waiting list for 2015 how many did get a place.

A few kids from my son's class were on the 2015 waiting list, AFAIK they didn't get in.

Regarding all the fuss over the admission policy favouring CoI - there are only 12 kids from St Patricks in the 2015 intake (not all of them are CoI either). Not sure about Delgany NS but that's a pretty small school so probably not a huge amount from there either.