Pylons

fits

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Every time I hear this argument that it will destroy the landscape for tourists I have to laugh. I recently posted an extract of the eirgrid route map over in the Carlow forum and you couldn't count the number of one-off houses in the vicinity of the pylon route. If anything the landscape has already been destroyed by these houses, but you didn't hear the locals complaining.

And I have to laugh at the attitude that because there are one off houses in South Carlow (and there really aren't many) that its ok to destroy the landscape more.

What is Ireland? What is our national identity about? why do people come here. What makes us unique?

Its our landscape and heritage.

Turning the whole country into Crawley/Slough wont help us much in the long run either.

South Carlow
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=221507168020643&set=pb.210190362485657.-2207520000.1385107000.&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=218396908331669&set=pb.210190362485657.-2207520000.1385107000.&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=217157261788967&set=pb.210190362485657.-2207520000.1385107000.&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=215633925274634&set=pb.210190362485657.-2207520000.1385107000.&type=3&theater

fits

Oh and by the way Oppenheimer, the map you posted was of Kildare.

almighty1

micosoft wrote: »

As has already been pointed out with sources on this thread the truth on every item here is the exact opposite to what you have stated.

What sources?

almighty1

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

That rubbish statement has already been debunked.
And cheaper suits just fine, why should we borrow billions to bury them underground just to suit a few loons and NIMBYs!

Where has it been debunked? Was it this one which I posted earlier?

You seem to have no issue with labelling anti-pylon group nimbys when in fact the same accusation could be thrown straight back at you.

Is your property along any of the Gridlink 25 routes?

almighty1

micosoft wrote: »

Eirgrid is state owned and a non profit. Their only remit is provide a cost effective and reliable national grid. They have put a huge amount of forward planning and thinking - that's why it's called Grid 25. Perhaps if you'd read this easily available information instead of making up the first conspiracy theory that enters your head you'd have a greater understanding of how the country works.

The above is purely propaganda. Currently state-owned yes, then why are they not releasing their consultation finding to FoI? Eirgrid will soon be a privatised company, don't you think they'll do whatever they can to ensure their stock is the highest when this happens?

Did you watch the Prime Time show the other night. The CEO was caught out numerous times with his lies. Specifically their consultation with Dungarvan people. He specifically stated that there was an advertisement in the Dungarvan Leader specifying the outline of the Gridlink project.
This was proven to be false. Their "consultation" involves opening up centres for 4-6 hours a week, in back streets and at the most awkward times possible.

The company has a gigantic PR department whose primary function is to pump out the muck like quoted post above.

Fratton Fred

fits wrote: »

And I have to laugh at the attitude that because there are one off houses in South Carlow (and there really aren't many) that its ok to destroy the landscape more.

What is Ireland? What is our national identity about? why do people come here. What makes us unique?

Its our landscape and heritage.

Turning the whole country into Crawley/Slough wont help us much in the long run either.

South Carlow
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=221507168020643&set=pb.210190362485657.-2207520000.1385107000.&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=218396908331669&set=pb.210190362485657.-2207520000.1385107000.&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=217157261788967&set=pb.210190362485657.-2207520000.1385107000.&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=215633925274634&set=pb.210190362485657.-2207520000.1385107000.&type=3&theater

I grew up around Slough and I would very much like to say that the poor reputation slough has is totally unjustified.

But I can't, it is, indeed, a toilet.

seamus

I live in Dublin and can see about five of these monsters out my window, all within a 1km radius.

The fuss people make over them is hilarious. They don't "ruin the landscape".

Cantona's Collars

Just out the road from my place there's signs up "No Pylons Here", thing is there'll be a motorway running through the place in a couple of years,not a word of complaint from those who got nice cheques from CPO's.

fits

So you think its wrong to compensate when you run a motorway over someones property?

Cienciano

fits wrote: »

And I have to laugh at the attitude that because there are one off houses in South Carlow (and there really aren't many) that its ok to destroy the landscape more.

What is Ireland? What is our national identity about? why do people come here. What makes us unique?

Its our landscape and heritage.

Turning the whole country into Crawley/Slough wont help us much in the long run either.

South Carlow
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=221507168020643&set=pb.210190362485657.-2207520000.1385107000.&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=218396908331669&set=pb.210190362485657.-2207520000.1385107000.&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=217157261788967&set=pb.210190362485657.-2207520000.1385107000.&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=215633925274634&set=pb.210190362485657.-2207520000.1385107000.&type=3&theater [/QUOTE]

So people come from around the world to Carlow because the landscape is unique?

seamus

fits wrote: »

So you think its wrong to compensate when you run a motorway over someones property?

I think his point is that people will foam at the mouth over some barely-intrusive steel frames being erected and complain about ruining the landscape, but place a few quid in their pockets and they'll say nothing about gouging a big rut in the landscape to insert a road.
It's hypocrisy.

fits

Cienciano wrote: »

So people come from around the world to Carlow because the landscape is unique?

They do. Historically not so much tourism in Carlow as other areas but in the last year we have had walking festival literary festival, national country fair. I'm on phone so can't link to them. St Mullins attracts a lot of visitors in summer and the stephouse hotel is a beautiful spot. Lots of weddings there and in Borris House so weekends can be very busy. There is a new hostel opening soon aimed at walking tourists also. Then you have graiguenamanagh close by with boat tours duiske abbey etc. Kilkenny council marked their side of river barrow as high amenity so eirgrid avoided it. Carlow weren't so well prepared.

micosoft

almighty1 wrote: »

What sources?

almighty1 wrote: »

The above is purely propaganda. Currently state-owned yes, then why are they not releasing their consultation finding to FoI? Eirgrid will soon be a privatised company, don't you think they'll do whatever they can to ensure their stock is the highest when this happens?

Hilarious. You demand where my sources are in one post. Two posts down you refer to the very source in my post. Then you start making more conspiracy stuff up*. Yes - Eirgrid are deliberately running HV lines through the country for $$$$!


Things that agree with your view even without any substantive support or just made up = The truth!

Evidence that does not support your view = propaganda.

Your demands for consultation is simply a demand to say NO. Consultation means exactly that. Not asking permission, consulting. That means that the consultation process may lead to your view being heard but still rejected. That's why the state has compulsory purchase orders and a critical infrastructure act. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the very few. In this case the needs of industry, employment, a move to renewable energy, energy security of supply, all outweigh the needs of a couple of individuals not to have the view from their one off house spoilt. Last time I checked, a nice view was not a human right.

For the record I grew up less then 30 metres from the Arklow HV line through Wicklow through an area that has the highest tourist traffic in the country after Killarney. Seems not to have had an effect over the past 30 years.
Would I prefer HV lines didn't exist and power transferred Tesla like? Yes.
Do I accept they are a very necessary part of modern life? Yes.
Do I put up with them? Yes.


*I suspect they are not releasing their consultation findings because they are not allowed to from either an ethical or data protection point of view - submissions to this process are in confidence. What if I were a neighbour of yours who wanted to write in that whilst they would prefer not to have it, they accept the need for HV lines. Would they not want you snooping through their correspondence? I know how nasty this gets at a local level.

Cantona's Collars

fits wrote: »

So you think its wrong to compensate when you run a motorway over someones property?

My point is that they didn't complain a bit about a motorway running through their land but pylons seem to really seem to be causing outrage.

fits

zerks wrote: »

My point is that they didn't complain a bit about a motorway running through their land but pylons seem to really seem to be causing outrage.

because among other reasons people can't relocate away from them if they need to because property is devalued and they receive no compensation (unless landowners as opposed to homeowners)

micosoft

fits wrote: »

They do. Historically not so much tourism in Carlow as other areas but in the last year we have had walking festival literary festival, national country fair. I'm on phone so can't link to them. St Mullins attracts a lot of visitors in summer and the stephouse hotel is a beautiful spot. Lots of weddings there and in Borris House so weekends can be very busy. There is a new hostel opening soon aimed at walking tourists also. Then you have graiguenamanagh close by with boat tours duiske abbey etc. Kilkenny council marked their side of river barrow as high amenity so eirgrid avoided it. Carlow weren't so well prepared.

So tell me fits then. Where do you draw the line. No pylons in the country is what I'm hearing because the bar is set so incredibly low that everywhere is high amenity. I know Carlow well (plenty of farming relatives down there) - it would be well down the pecking order - plenty of counties with far more then what you've described that have pylons running through them.

With regard to the amenity zoning - I suspect that's because Carlow Country Councillors (as requested by their electorate) were too busy zoning commuter houses for Dublin to care too much about the environment. Kilkenny City and environs have been looked after and are a tourist destination. You guys got an F from Taisce for planning. No point crying now - you couldn't be arsed about the environment until now.

micosoft

fits wrote: »

because among other reasons people can't relocate away from them if they need to because property is devalued and they receive no compensation (unless landowners as opposed to homeowners)

Provide evidence for this devaluation. As I've stated, I grew up very close to a pylon (<30 Metres). That house is still worth a lot of money. This is makey uppy. Not everyone lives directly beside the pylon - many complainants are over a kilometre.

Here is the house price register. Show a pattern where a house less then a KM from a Pylon is less like for like then a house that is further away. It's a piece of work to do but I'm saying that I have seen no evidence for this.

fits

micosoft wrote: »

So tell me fits then. Where do you draw the line. No pylons in the country is what I'm hearing because the bar is set so incredibly low that everywhere is high amenity. I know Carlow well (plenty of farming relatives down there) - it would be well down the pecking order - plenty of counties with far more then what you've described that have pylons running through them.

That is a subjective opinion. You see this is a lot of the problem.... Ireland was a signatory to European landscape convention in 2004 and yet to date we have no national landscape strategy and no map of protected landscapes. This is foolish considering its one of our biggest assets. Its made life difficult for eirgrid too as they are relying on county development plans for their information and of course some authorities are more organised than others.

With regard to the amenity zoning - I suspect that's because Carlow Country Councillors (as requested by their electorate) were too busy zoning commuter houses for Dublin to care too much about the environment. Kilkenny City and environs have been looked after and are a tourist destination. You guys got an F from Taisce for planning. No point crying now - you couldn't be arsed about the environment until now.

you suspect right. But just because there were mistakes in the past doesn't mean we shouldn't try put them to rights.
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/carlowpeople/news/councillors-green-light-a-county-plan-without-high-amenity-areas-27004091.html

fits

micosoft wrote: »

Provide evidence for this devaluation. As I've stated, I grew up very close to a pylon (<30 Metres). That house is still worth a lot of money. This is makey uppy. Not everyone lives directly beside the pylon - many complainants are over a kilometre.

Here is the house price register. Show a pattern where a house less then a KM from a Pylon is less like for like then a house that is further away. It's a piece of work to do but I'm saying that I have seen no evidence for this.

I have no evidence but I do have common sense. I would not buy a house near a 400kv line looking out at a massive pylon. Many people wouldn't. It devalues property, no question.

almighty1

micosoft wrote: »

Hilarious. You demand where my sources are in one post. Two posts down you refer to the very source in my post. Then you start making more conspiracy stuff up*. Yes - Eirgrid are deliberately running HV lines through the country for $$$$!


Things that agree with your view even without any substantive support or just made up = The truth!

Evidence that does not support your view = propaganda.

Your demands for consultation is simply a demand to say NO. Consultation means exactly that. Not asking permission, consulting. That means that the consultation process may lead to your view being heard but still rejected. That's why the state has compulsory purchase orders and a critical infrastructure act. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the very few. In this case the needs of industry, employment, a move to renewable energy, energy security of supply, all outweigh the needs of a couple of individuals not to have the view from their one off house spoilt. Last time I checked, a nice view was not a human right.

For the record I grew up less then 30 metres from the Arklow HV line through Wicklow through an area that has the highest tourist traffic in the country after Killarney. Seems not to have had an effect over the past 30 years.
Would I prefer HV lines didn't exist and power transferred Tesla like? Yes.
Do I accept they are a very necessary part of modern life? Yes.
Do I put up with them? Yes.


*I suspect they are not releasing their consultation findings because they are not allowed to from either an ethical or data protection point of view - submissions to this process are in confidence. What if I were a neighbour of yours who wanted to write in that whilst they would prefer not to have it, they accept the need for HV lines. Would they not want you snooping through their correspondence? I know how nasty this gets at a local level.

Your "source" that proves undergrounding requires more expensive maintenance comes from Eirgrid. Really?

Re consultation. You think Eirgrid might want to allay peoples fears with regards to health and devaluation. People want to voice their concerns but Eirgrid make this impossible. Do you think that there should be no consultation with the public then?

Regarding consultation I'm referring specifically to the identification of potential pylons routes throughout the country. I'm finding it difficult to find any confidentiality issues and even if there were, they would be minimal.

Of course there would be devaluation. Fintan Slye even mentioned it could be around 40k per house depending on proximity of pylons.

There has never been a mention of compensation from the anti-pylon groups. Its not about money. People get 20k per pylon on their land but yet are fighting tooth and nail to keep them off. 97% of farmers on the North-East pylon route are refusing Eirgrid entry to their land.

People aren't gonna lie down and let the Eirgrid bullies run them over.

almighty1

fits wrote: »

I have no evidence but I do have common sense. I would not buy a house near a 400kv line looking out at a massive pylon. Many people wouldn't. It devalues property, no question.

Agreed. Do people really have to prove statistics for something that is purely common sense. This is After Hours but thinking that large structures in close proximity to a house doesn't devalue it, is bordering on trolling.

SV

almighty1 wrote: »

Agreed. Do people really have to prove statistics for something that is purely common sense. This is After Hours but thinking that large structures in close proximity to a house doesn't devalue it, is bordering on trolling.

Yet many people wouldn't care less.
Many people wouldn't buy a home in the middle of nowhere with nothing around them either.

almighty1

SV wrote: »

Yet many people wouldn't care less.

I respectively disagree wholeheartedly.

323

Victor Yummy Revolver wrote: »

Under grounding costs between 5 and 14 times more than overhead. Repair of faults in underground cables is more than 10 times more expensive. Are we willing to carry this cost in all our electricity bills?

Absolute rubbish.
Little beyond 50km distance, underground HVDC cost is about the same, from there cost decreases compared to AC Pylons as distance increases.
As to repairs, yes repair cost may be a little higher but underground cables very very rarely develop faults, so on the long term maintenance costs are much lower.

Recently told by an Irish network engineer abroad how sad it is that Eirgrid are dead set on installing a 20th century system for the 21st century and beyond. What happens when GAA membership was the most important qualification for getting a job as an engineer.

micosoft

almighty1 wrote: »

Your "source" that proves undergrounding requires more expensive maintenance comes from Eirgrid. Really?

That source was plainly in response to someone claiming Eirgrid was not engaged in long term planning. The thing is - any plausible sources are from the engineering companies (Siemens etc) and Grid Operators and Energy Regulators. So you will shout "conspiracy". You want an independent investigation aka people who have not got any background in delivering grids (minor unpeer reviewed academic reviews) or use edge cases (powerlines over the alps). The vast vast vast bulk of evidence is that overground is substantially cheaper by a factor as previous posters have made clear.

almighty1 wrote: »

Re consultation. You think Eirgrid might want to allay peoples fears with regards to health and devaluation. People want to voice their concerns but Eirgrid make this impossible. Do you think that there should be no consultation with the public then?

They have. That people like yourself refuse to believe anything Eirgrid say because you think they are involved in a giant profit making conspiracy just because means it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion. Pylons have been around for years. There are no health implications and they would be obvious if there were.

Again - you are being disingenuous. I clearly did not say that their should be no consultation. I said their was a difference between consultation and getting your way.

almighty1 wrote: »

Regarding consultation I'm referring specifically to the identification of potential pylons routes throughout the country. I'm finding it difficult to find any confidentiality issues and even if there were, they would be minimal.

The identification of pylon routes is not part of consultation process. The potential pylon routes are identified and then consultation occurs. It's a group of engineers and planners who look at the three or four routes you could use with the many variables involved. Unless you are actually suggesting Eirgrid ask people where they think Pylons should be routed? (Clue: anywhere but near me).

almighty1 wrote: »

Of course there would be devaluation. Fintan Slye even mentioned it could be around 40k per house depending on proximity of pylons.

Link. In anycase you can make this argument about any type of infrastructure. Roads, Hospitals, Prisons, Sewerage. They have to go somewhere.

almighty1 wrote: »

There has never been a mention of compensation from the anti-pylon groups. Its not about money. People get 20k per pylon on their land but yet are fighting tooth and nail to keep them off. 97% of farmers on the North-East pylon route are refusing Eirgrid entry to their land.

Grand. That's why compulsory purchase orders are needed. Needs of the many. Don't know where you pulled that 97%? Another made up "Fact".

almighty1 wrote: »

People aren't gonna lie down and let the Eirgrid bullies run them over.

Gotcha. The core of your argument is Not In My Back Yard. I'm alright - I like using Motorways, Electricity, etc just as long as it does not impact on me. Super argument. So here is the thing. People aren't go to lie down when there are power cuts, industry refuses to setup in locations because of insufficient power, electricity prices go up because of a couple of Nimby's. Cuts both ways and I suspect patience is running thin with the Nimby movement at all levels of society.

shruikan2553

fits wrote: »

I have no evidence but I do have common sense. I would not buy a house near a 400kv line looking out at a massive pylon. Many people wouldn't. It devalues property, no question.

I wouldnt buy a house with poor roads that wouldnt be treated in winter, no decent broadband connection or a shop within 10 minutes. I doubt I am alone thinking like this so does not receiving a 100mb line devalue property? Shouldnt these people be trying to get the road improved if they care so much about the value of the property?

seamus

almighty1 wrote: »

Agreed. Do people really have to prove statistics for something that is purely common sense.

Uh....yes? "Common sense" refers to something which is believed to be correct by an individual, not something which is known to be factually true.

Zen65

kneemos wrote: »

Putting a pylon 50m from someone's house is a bit criminal in fairness.

We live in a country which allows people to build houses in 'ribbon development' fashion and a substantial amount of one-off housing. With that lack of foresight of course no electric company can find a route which does not come close to houses. This is compounded by the designation of many 'special conservation' landscapes and features, next to which it is impossible to get planning permission.

I love the fact that I live in a country where it is legal to object to development plans, but I despise the irresponsible, loutish behavior of those groups who claim all sorts of nonsense to scaremonger support.

Pylons cannot cause illness*; they are simply steel structures. If EMF caused cancer then the 'massive' EMF in your house (caused by your own wiring) is the problem as it is tens of times stronger than the EMF of a power line 50m away.

*of course I cannot prove that; nobody can prove a negative.

Zen65

almighty1 wrote: »

This is After Hours but thinking that large structures in close proximity to a house doesn't devalue it, is bordering on trolling.

But if my neighbour builds a 'corner house' on his property it might also devalue my house. The law does not entitle me to have his PP rejected on that basis alone, nor could I take a successful claim for devaluation of my property to court. We live in a democracy which upholds the idea of the superiority of the 'common good'.

Capt'n Midnight

IMHO one of the worst blights on the landscape are the white bunglow blitz houses on the coast. Compare Mayo to Connemara.

There are big pylons near me and they affect Long Wave reception on the radio in the car when nearby but so do mopeds and that's about it.


Plenty of people in West Dublin living in sight of large pylons.

Let's reverse the argument and see what it looks like

I don't see any culchies trying to get back dated compo for us so the Nimbys can go swing.