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2014 Tour de France

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    #62
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,209 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    upstairs for coffee wrote: »
    Why would Froome want Wiggins on his team?

    Froome gifted Wiggins his Tour de France win and Wiggins has never returned the favour. There is no trust there. Wiggins took Froome for a ride, got his glory and fecked off. Froome is more than right to not want a cyclist who he can't trust on his team.

    Froome didn't follow team orders. He thought he should.have been leader in 2012 but wasn't.


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    #63
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,209 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    upstairs for coffee wrote: »
    Why would Froome want Wiggins on his team?

    Froome gifted Wiggins his Tour de France win and Wiggins has never returned the favour. There is no trust there. Wiggins took Froome for a ride, got his glory and fecked off. Froome is more than right to not want a cyclist who he can't trust on his team.

    Froome didn't follow team orders. He thought he should.have been leader in 2012 but wasn't.


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    #64
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,209 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    upstairs for coffee wrote: »
    Why would Froome want Wiggins on his team?

    Froome gifted Wiggins his Tour de France win and Wiggins has never returned the favour. There is no trust there. Wiggins took Froome for a ride, got his glory and fecked off. Froome is more than right to not want a cyclist who he can't trust on his team.

    Froome didn't follow team orders. He thought he should.have been leader in 2012 but wasn't.


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    #65
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Personally think it is vindictive of Froome to basically tell Sky to leave Wiggo out. Wiggo had been very vocal about knowing his role would have been that of being a helper with the chance of a few stage victories if circumstances allowed them to fall into his lap.


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    #66
    happytramp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭happytramp


    My girlfriend wants to know who's the good guy/bad guy in the Froome/Wiggans situation. I don't know what to tell her. It's pretty complicated.


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    #67
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    As it stands IMO it has to be Froome. He is coming out of this situation and throw the book into the mix as well as someone who is very vindictive.


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    #68
    MrCreosote
    Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭MrCreosote


    I don't get the Froome-hating- Wiggins has already cost him two Grand Tours. He's the team leader, and should have first call on who's in and who's out.

    Back in form or not, Wiggins would be made mincemeat of on this years Tour.

    And whatever Wiggins about being more "interesting" (obnoxious) in interviews, Froome is a way more exciting rider. Ruthless on attack, bulldog spirit on defense, he's the complete package.


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    #69
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,209 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Both are to blame. They havent gotten to where they are by being push overs or worrying about other people (especially in a sport where the individual is the prize winner)


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    #70
    happytramp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭happytramp


    Not really a fan of either but I wish we could stop this nonsense that Froome was a dead cert to win the 2012 Tour had he not had to work for Wiggans. He finished nearly 3 and a half minutes down on him. Was Froome a stronger climber? Probably. Was Wiggan's a better TT'er? Definitely. Remember Wiggan's put 1.16min into him on the second time trial despite having the tour wrapped up at that point.


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    #71
    zurbfoundation
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭zurbfoundation


    froome in wiggins out, got it. is there anyone else in the race?


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    #72
    happytramp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭happytramp


    zurbfoundation wrote: »
    froome in wiggins out, got it. is there anyone else in the race?

    I assume you mean beyond the obvious choice of Contador. Only Nibali and he's a fairly distant third. Although he's by far the guy i'd most love to see win.


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    #73
    Craig06
    Registered Users Posts: 430 ✭✭Craig06


    Contador will win the tour this year. His performance in tirreno was epic. He has an incredibly strong team. Good GC riders in their own right.


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    #74
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,209 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Craig06 wrote: »
    Contador will win the tour this year. His performance in tirreno was epic. He has an incredibly strong team. Good GC riders in their own right.

    And thats why Sky should be bringing Wiggins


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    #75
    unichall
    Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭unichall


    godtabh wrote: »
    And thats why Sky should be bringing Wiggins

    Exactly, imagine the pressure you could put on other teams by getting Wiggins to attack on a mountain stage, they would have no choice but to follow and Froome could just suck wheels with Porte still there to mind him. I suppose Froome would worry to much though that if Wiggins did attack but stayed away he would become Plan A.

    Froome doesn't want him in the team because he wants to insure at all costs he is the sole team leader and a situation doesn't develop where that might change and while I can understand that putting personal ambition before the greater good for the team is not cool


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    #76
    drogdub
    Registered Users Posts: 487 ✭✭drogdub


    Watched Sky Sports News last night and not a mention of Wiggins or did I just miss it.

    I think the big worry for Froome is the cobbled stage. Wiggins who showed this year that he is good on the cobbles and could take a lot of time out on Froome and what happens then.


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    #77
    MPFG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭MPFG


    drogdub wrote: »
    Watched Sky Sports News last night and not a mention of Wiggins or did I just miss it.

    I think the big worry for Froome is the cobbled stage. Wiggins who showed this year that he is good on the cobbles and could take a lot of time out on Froome and what happens then.


    May not have been on SKY news but it was very prominent on BBC news and they had Gary Verity ( organiser of grand deart) lamenting the fact that Wiggo was out and the slant of the piece left the blame on Froome's door
    Basically they were suggesting that Froome didn't want Wiggins because he was afraid of him


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    #78
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    drogdub wrote: »
    Watched Sky Sports News last night and not a mention of Wiggins or did I just miss it.


    Dunno if you missed it but more likely you were in the midst of the Murdoch world where if something didn't fit the required propagandist bill, then it doesn't get shown. Just checked the Sky Sports site, & what a shock, Wiggins saying he won't ride the Tour doesn't exist as a story. Not a happy Sky story. Your gaze is pointed where it's meant to in the media world.


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    #79
    MPFG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭MPFG


    Robert Millar is spot on

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/robert-millar/robert-millar-blog-man-down


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    #80
    drogdub
    Registered Users Posts: 487 ✭✭drogdub


    pelevin wrote: »
    Dunno if you missed it but more likely you were in the midst of the Murdoch world where if something didn't fit the required propagandist bill, then it doesn't get shown. Just checked the Sky Sports site, & what a shock, Wiggins saying he won't ride the Tour doesn't exist as a story. Not a happy Sky story. Your gaze is pointed where it's meant to in the media world.

    Ye thats exactly where I was. I wonder will pressure be put on Brailsford by the Murdochs.


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    #81
    Shedite27
    Registered Users Posts: 9,389 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    I'd love to see Froome V Wiggins this year, but sky obviously didn't. So they had to protect one of them. Both have shown they're good enough to win the tour (and will be odds on to do so).

    From Sky's point of view, Froome is 5 years younger, so gives them the best chance of the next 5/6 years. Even if they let Wiggo go, he's only got a year or two left in him.

    Sad from a fan's perspective, but I can kinda see their logic


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    #82
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    drogdub wrote: »
    Ye thats exactly where I was. I wonder will pressure be put on Brailsford by the Murdochs.

    That's exactly what I've ben thinking. It's a huge PR disaster for Sky in Britain particularly, & while this might not be a significant issue for Brailsford, I'd say it's the essence of the matter for the Murdochs. Wiggins recently said the Tour of California was the team's second biggest focus for the season & that has obviously nothing to do with pure cycling terms - it sums up what the team is about for the owners, i.e. positive PR & advertising for the Murdoch brand. I'd say there's every chance they'll step in and say, Wiggins is on the TdF squad.


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    #83
    seany15
    Registered Users Posts: 257 ✭✭seany15


    pelevin wrote: »
    I'd say there's every chance they'll step in and say, Wiggins is on the TdF squad.

    like abramovich at chelsea.

    this is a disaster for both the team and for sky, especially given the fanfare this was given by the beeb. Froome is clearly scared of wiggo, given his performance at roubaix, California and his ITT ability. I think not having him there will also only make him want it more when OGE throw money at him next year.

    a focussed Wiggins with an axe to grind from the year before. Sounds familiar...


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    #84
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    I think Froome getting the focus of much of Joe Public's abuse is a bit wrong. Brailsford is the team manager and should be calling the shots. What Froome would like in a perfect world actually isn't really the issue. He is just a cyclist on the team, & he doesn't personally have any wider concern than his own wants. As a decision-maker, the buck stops with Brailsford. If people are angry, they should be directing their ire at him, not Froome who shouldn't have the power to say "Bradley Wiggins isn't on my team."


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    #85
    drogdub
    Registered Users Posts: 487 ✭✭drogdub


    pelevin wrote: »
    I think Froome getting the focus of much of Joe Public's abuse is a bit wrong. Brailsford is the team manager and should be calling the shots. What Froome would like in a perfect world actually isn't really the issue. He is just a cyclist on the team, & he doesn't personally have any wider concern than his own wants. As a decision-maker, the buck stops with Brailsford. If people are angry, they should be directing their ire at him, not Froome who shouldn't have the power to say "Bradley Wiggins isn't on my team."

    I slightly disagree, if Brailsford decides that the strategy is to back Froome and Froome only then Froome has a right to have a say on the team. What he shouldn't have a say in, in a team with two Tdf winners, is the overall strategy. That's Brailsford's job and he has chosen one that doesn't include Wiggins, but I do agree if the public feel they want to be annoyed at anyone it should be Brailsford .


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    #86
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,749 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    Word on the street is Froome's new contract gives him veto over the TDF Team makeup, and he has exercised it, it was his negotiating team who wanted this in, and it's him who has exercised his right to veto Wiggins inclusion. Don't know if that's true but its whats doing the rounds, and if true then you have to lay Wiggins exclusion firmly at his door.


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    #87
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    drogdub wrote: »
    I slightly disagree, if Brailsford decides that the strategy is to back Froome and Froome only then Froome has a right to have a say on the team. What he shouldn't have a say in, in a team with two Tdf winners, is the overall strategy. That's Brailsford's job and he has chosen one that doesn't include Wiggins, but I do agree if the public feel they want to be annoyed at anyone it should be Brailsford .

    Froome has the right, yes, to have input on who's in the team in terms of offering his opinion on who he'd like and why. But that's as far as it should go, i.e. it's his opinion. But if Brailsford tells him Wiggins will be on the team, then that's that.


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    #88
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    Inquitus wrote: »
    Word on the street is Froome's new contract gives him veto over the TDF Team makeup, and he has exercised it, it was his negotiating team who wanted this in, and it's him who has exercised his right to veto Wiggins inclusion. Don't know if that's true but its whats doing the rounds, and if true then you have to lay Wiggins exclusion firmly at his door.

    I'd still disagree essentially in that this is a surrendering of the hierarchical system of any team environment, & if Brailsford & Sky have conceded such ground, then the buck again stops with them for not doing their job properly. If Froome did put in such a clause, it would have been with the intent of using it, & so again the responsibility would stop with Brailsford in accepting a rider becoming the team boss.

    To add though, on a personal level whatever the truth behind this, Froome doesn't come out looking good. He releases his book, heavily criticising Wiggins & Brailsford, then tries to let on that this is all in the past, the air has cleared, etc . . . when it seems this is complete garbage.


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    #89
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    zurbfoundation wrote: »
    froome in wiggins out, got it. is there anyone else in the race?

    Seriously?

    There's this wee Spanish lad named Alberto Contador, who just so happens to be the great Grand Tour rider of his generation.

    His form this year has been nothing short of brilliant. It's going to be an epic tour.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #90
    upstairs for coffee
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭upstairs for coffee


    Any Irish cyclists in it?


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    #91
    drogdub
    Registered Users Posts: 487 ✭✭drogdub


    pelevin wrote: »
    I'd still disagree essentially in that this is a surrendering of the hierarchical system of any team environment, & if Brailsford & Sky have conceded such ground, then the buck again stops with them for not doing their job properly. If Froome did put in such a clause, it would have been with the intent of using it, & so again the responsibility would stop with Brailsford in accepting a rider becoming the team boss.

    To add though, on a personal level whatever the truth behind this, Froome doesn't come out looking good. He releases his book, heavily criticising Wiggins & Brailsford, then tries to let on that this is all in the past, the air has cleared, etc . . . when it seems this is complete garbage.

    But as a team sport cycling is a bit different its a team sport where the team are working for one person to win and that person needs to be confident that all the team will back him, Froome isn't confident in Wiggins


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