Mux 2 Launched / Saorview Rescan Required

Sam Russell

doney84 wrote: »

I have some non saorview approved equipment myself so I understand your frustrations ... but to be fair to 2RN the message from the very start was to only purchase approved saorview equipment. One of the pitfalls of being an early adopter I guess

No, it is 2rn that are seeking out ways to make the 'nearly' products totally unusable - or at least as much as they can. They could make these products as usable as they have been in the past - but they choose to seek out little foibles and exploit them.

The secret UK D-Book is no help either. It would be useful if they tried to make their unique secret world more like Nordig or some other widely accepted standard. Spendid isolation is not good in the world of communication.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

The secret UK D-Book is no help either. It would be useful if they tried to make their unique secret world more like Nordig or some other widely accepted standard. Spendid isolation is not good in the world of communication.

The D-Book isn't secret just not publically available. It's available to 150 broadcasters, manufacturers, technology providers and other organisations who pay the DTG membership fee. Most likely every Saorview box manufacturer is a member if they also manufacture Freeview/Freesat receivers.

Machinehead

Good to see RTÉ 1+1 labeled correctly again @ LCN 8. Still waiting for NN label to get sorted @ LCN 6.

TAFKAlawhec

Sam Russell wrote: »

What has Freeview got to do with it? We are talking about Mux2 (and mux1) and 2rn mucking about with the signal and having an effect on TVs that used to work perfectly.

It is 2rn that is at fault here.

Try going to Freeview about a query that affects a generic DVB-T receiver - the stock answer is that they only support receivers that have passed the D-Book certification. Why should anyone expect Saorview to do anything different with regards to their network? The fact that they already have provided some basic generic support for people to retune non-Saorview approved equipment is them going beyond their remit. 2RN's current experimenting with blank LCN numbers should have no major affect on approved Saorview receivers. For anyone using a non-approved DVB-T receiver, it's a case of cavet emptor. The same goes for dvb-t receivers that cannot handle split-NIT tables that Freeview use, nor generic DVB-T2 receivers for Freeview HD multiplexes (including the NIMM) that cannot read the EPG unless they can decode Huffman tables.

The problems regarding LG and Panasonic are of the manufacturers making which I presume could be somewhat sorted with a firmware update in each case. That's not 2RN's problem.

Sam Russell

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

Try going to Freeview about a query that affects a generic DVB-T receiver - the stock answer is that they only support receivers that have passed the D-Book certification. Why should anyone expect Saorview to do anything different with regards to their network? The fact that they already have provided some basic generic support for people to retune non-Saorview approved equipment is them going beyond their remit. 2RN's current experimenting with blank LCN numbers should have no major affect on approved Saorview receivers. For anyone using a non-approved DVB-T receiver, it's a case of cavet emptor. The same goes for dvb-t receivers that cannot handle split-NIT tables that Freeview use, nor generic DVB-T2 receivers for Freeview HD multiplexes (including the NIMM) that cannot read the EPG unless they can decode Huffman tables.

The problems regarding LG and Panasonic are of the manufacturers making which I presume could be somewhat sorted with a firmware update in each case. That's not 2RN's problem.

Well, 2rn appear to be seeking out ways to disable or otherwise interfere with the operation of particular receivers. Many of the receivers were purchased before Saorview was started and before it was possible to get a TV certified. Saorview chose a specification that was unique to Ireland. Sets had to be Nordig, but also to have MHEG5 middleware. No sets had that specification at the time. It was stated that MHEG5 was important. We still await anymeaningful aplications that require MHEG5.

The EU should have (and still should) come out with a Europe-wide specification for DTV standards. It is ridiculous that individual member states draw up their own standards.

egal

I received a TalkTalk Huawei YouView box this past week. But it will tune only one of the two Saorview multiplexes. Could this messing about by 2rn have any bearing on that fact, do you think?

Sam Russell

More likely an aerial problem.

Hotblack Desiato

Sam Russell wrote: »

The EU should have (and still should) come out with a Europe-wide specification for DTV standards. It is ridiculous that individual member states draw up their own standards.

Problem is, by the time you get everyone to agree on One Standard To Rule Them All, it'll be obsolete. Compare the leisurely development of analogue TV, decades to go from 405 B/W to 625 PAL - to digital TV, where you're lucky if a set or STB over eight or ten years old works at all.

TAFKAlawhec

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, 2rn appear to be seeking out ways to disable or otherwise interfere with the operation of particular receivers. Many of the receivers were purchased before Saorview was started and before it was possible to get a TV certified. Saorview chose a specification that was unique to Ireland. Sets had to be Nordig, but also to have MHEG5 middleware. No sets had that specification at the time. It was stated that MHEG5 was important. We still await anymeaningful aplications that require MHEG5.

The EU should have (and still should) come out with a Europe-wide specification for DTV standards. It is ridiculous that individual member states draw up their own standards.

There already is a European-wide DTV terrestrial standard - it's DVB-T, and its successor DVB-T2. The problem beyond that is how technology has quickly evolved in terms of video & audio codecs since October 1998 when it first started in the UK - the problem you'd have standing still from that point until today would be what you get with DAB now, a system that is badly outdated, inefficient & inflexible. Given its terrestrial and nominally fixed nature, DTT standards across different countries are only a major concern in border areas - the majority of viewers of such services aren't seeking cross-border reception. Middleware also evolves. You might not think there are any meaningful MHEG applications on Saorview, but the MHEG version of Aertel is still a tool widely used especially in homes with no internet access. MHP was a failure in terms of middleware, whereas Hbb looks like it'll have some momentum at least in mainland Europe.

I'll say it again, the blame here is with LG, not 2RN who are using DVB-T standards in LCN & hidden channel placement. Hotblack Desiato's post sums up the problem in developing standards - that's not to say that centralising one standard doesn't always work, but there are often unintended consequences.

Sam Russell

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

There already is a European-wide DTV terrestrial standard - it's DVB-T, and its successor DVB-T2. The problem beyond that is how technology has quickly evolved in terms of video & audio codecs since October 1998 when it first started in the UK - the problem you'd have standing still from that point until today would be what you get with DAB now, a system that is badly outdated, inefficient & inflexible. Given its terrestrial and nominally fixed nature, DTT standards across different countries are only a major concern in border areas - the majority of viewers of such services aren't seeking cross-border reception. Middleware also evolves. You might not think there are any meaningful MHEG applications on Saorview, but the MHEG version of Aertel is still a tool widely used especially in homes with no internet access. MHP was a failure in terms of middleware, whereas Hbb looks like it'll have some momentum at least in mainland Europe.

I'll say it again, the blame here is with LG, not 2RN who are using DVB-T standards in LCN & hidden channel placement. Hotblack Desiato's post sums up the problem in developing standards - that's not to say that centralising one standard doesn't always work, but there are often unintended consequences.

I agree, LG are at fault, absolutely. They made a market specific TV model, and then sold it outside that market. Having sold it, they now refuse to do anything about it - warranty - what warranty? Where is that you are? Never heard of it? Have you tried tuning into BBC1? etc. etc.

However, changes made by 2rn recently have had an unexpected consequence for me, and I would like them to reverse the change, if it is not essential to the operation of the Saorview signal, which I would think is the case. I suspect that they have changed the order of channels declared in the datastream putting the data ones first. All they need is to go back to how it was - or as near as they can.

I live in hope, after all, 2rn are just up the road from me.

.

Oscarziggy

Here in the UK I have a 3View PVR which worked perfectly until one day changes to the Freevies EPG data caused the box to freeze and require multiple reboots. The company no longer exists.
A dedicated ( and clever) bunch of owners patched the firmware and got the boxes back to a usable state but problems still persist.
I now have a lovely gleaming plastic door stop.
These boxes sold for £299 -- some people did manage to get their cash refunded --- and are still for sale .
They had a very sensitive tuner.... it was a great box.
Ah well --- silly me for being an early adapter.
Regards

Gerry Wicklow

just wondering if any one else is still missing the News Now label on a Saorview approved tv? 1+1 returned ok but not NN. Someone should tell 2RN "if it ain't broke, don't fix it":(

The Cush

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

just wondering if any one else is still missing the News Now label on a Saorview approved tv? 1+1 returned ok

The RTÉ News Now channel name, on LCN6, hasn't returned. Must be a delay reorganising the epg.

h7nlrp2v0g5u48

Test channel 21 which was showing RTE NEWS NOW is now showing a test card with epg info saying test transmission. It is still labelled RTE NEWS NOW.

satelliteman20

the newer rte one + 1 is now also 544x576 resolution i wonder whats going on it doesnt make any sense

The Cush

Lets see what happens when (or if) UTVI test transmissions begin.

khumbu

The Cush wrote: »

The RTÉ News Now channel name, on LCN6, hasn't returned. Must be a delay reorganising the epg.

"RTE News Now" name is back again.

satelliteman20

Also just noticed that rte junior is using 704x576 resolution all others are 544x576. Why could they have not just have switched the original one +1 and news now stream to higher resolution

The Cush

satelliteman20 wrote: »

Why could they have not just have switched the original one +1 and news now stream to higher resolution

Maybe because they are only temporary locations before they move to LCNs 11/21?

mgc102

Sam Russell wrote: »

The EU should have (and still should) come out with a Europe-wide specification for DTV standards. It is ridiculous that individual member states draw up their own standards.

If the motor/car was invented today it would probably take the EU 10 years to decide which side of the road the car should drive on, but yes I would like to see a Europe-wide specification for standards.

The Cush wrote: »

The D-Book isn't secret just not publically available. It's available to 150 broadcasters, manufacturers, technology providers and other organisations who pay the DTG membership fee. Most likely every Saorview box manufacturer is a member if they also manufacture Freeview/Freesat receivers.

What is stopping a manufacturer from producing a box/TV that is capable of working in all EU countries? Is it the you need the approval stamp ? Or are the manafacturer pre

The Cush

mgc102 wrote: »

What is stopping a manufacturer from producing a box/TV that is capable of working in all EU countries? Is it the you need the approval stamp ? Or are the manafacturer pre

The major manufacturers like Sony do this already, it simply requires lab certification for the various national receiver standards.

mgc102

I dont have any Sony equipment.

mgc102 wrote: »

What is stopping a manufacturer from producing a box/TV that is capable of working in all EU countries? Is it the you need the approval stamp ? Or are the manafacturer pre

My battery died before I could finish the above post.

Ok major manufacturers like Sony do this. Is there a Sony PVR that can be used across the EU like the way an IPhone can be used throughout the EU?

The Cush

mgc102 wrote: »

Is there a Sony PVR that can be used across the EU like the way an IPhone can be used throughout the EU?

No, TVs only. The DTT market is probably too small to justify the cost of pan-European PVR certification, but everyone needs a TV.

mgc102

too small to justify the cost

sounds like what the Betamax said to the VHS?

where is the competition in the DTT market?

Sam Russell

Some TV manufacturers deliberately make TVs incompatible to stop grey marketing. This is a particular problem for us in Ireland as the UK is an easy place to source grey product. It is unfortunate that this exists, and support for firmware does not continue beyond the warranty period.

It is further made difficult by the 'helpful' way the 2rn and RTE are 'adjusting' the DTT signal to render more non-approved TVs to become non-compliant. At present, series-link suddenly stopped working in July on non-approved PVRs. The summer-time problem suddenly appeared last year and the year before. Now they have changed the order the channels are loaded, putting data channels first, which has screwed up my TVs programme numbering.

Why is there so much secrecy about the mux coding, and what 2rn are doing with the signal? And why so many test cards, yet poor definition on the channels we actually watch? Could they not go [1920 by 1080] for HD and [702 by 576] for SD, given they have the space?

Digifriendly

Using Sony Freeview HD TV and Test transmission page had replaced RTE News Now from its position putting the latter further down the channel list. Fortunately with Sony TV (not their Freeview HD PVR) I can programme sort.

mgc102

Sam Russell wrote: »

Some TV manufacturers deliberately make TVs incompatible to stop grey marketing.

It is further made difficult by the 'helpful' way the 2rn and RTE are 'adjusting' the DTT signal to render more non-approved TVs to become non-compliant.

The EU should make it a requirement that all equipment (TV or PVR) can be used throughout the union in the same way that $ky plus boxes can be used anywhere. I doubt that manufacturers deliberately make TVs or equipment incompatible to stop grey marketing. If I was a $ky plus seller I certainly would hate to see better quality personal video recorders from the grey market reducing the number of subscriptions I sold, especially if these recorders had full compatibility with a free service (i. e. $aorview).

Can we stop with the $ky rubbish? So immature.

Thurston?

mgc102 wrote: »

The EU should make it a requirement that all equipment (TV or PVR) can be used throughout the union in the same way that $ky plus boxes can be used anywhere.

You mean anywhere you can receive the signal from 28 degrees east, & as long as you pay a subscription to Sky?

mgc102

Karsini wrote: »

Can we stop with the $ky rubbish? So immature.

$orry!