Formula 1 2013: Round 15 - Japanese Grand Prix

KillerShamrock · 13-10-2013 1:41pm

Boring boring race vettles good luck strikes again and perilli ruined yet another classic track ruined by tyre management

what was the story with Webber on the podium did he bigger off then get pushed back out ha ha

Torqay · 13-10-2013 2:06pm

Richie6904 wrote: »

perilli ruined yet another classic track ruined by tyre management

A real shame indeed. Suzuka used to be a great race to watch. Today Vettel was biding his time for 75 minutes, waiting for the words "Go and get him" and then cruising home.

A great win maybe but utterly boring to watch.

Max_Charger · 13-10-2013 3:02pm

I thought it was one of the more entertaining races this season tbh.

Jordan 199 · 13-10-2013 3:10pm

Well done to Esteban Guiterrez for scoring his first points of the season. Hulkenberg had another great race too.

Sauber are having a far better second half of the season compared to the first.

Max_Charger · 13-10-2013 3:21pm

Eddie Jordon on the red button after the race seemed pretty sure according to his "sources" that the Hulk is on his way back to Force India next season. I don't think EJ has ever been wrong when announcing things like that on the beeb before. Be an awful shame if he's right, would of loved to see him in a Lotus.

Torqay · 13-10-2013 3:37pm

Max_Charger wrote: »

Eddie Jordon on the red button after the race seemed pretty sure according to his "sources" that the Hulk is on his way back to Force India next season. I don't think EJ has ever been wrong when announcing things like that on the beeb before. Be an awful shame if he's right, would of loved to see him in a Lotus.

Huelkenberg said on Thursday in the press conference that he needs clarity ASAP re his cockpit for next season but didn't meant it to be an "ultimatum" for Lotus. So it is now very likely that he will swap cockpits with Sutil.

I still believe, if Lotus let this opportunity pass, it means they're working on a deal with Alonso. There just aren't that many top-class drivers on the market except maybe Felipe Massa.

Rascasse · 13-10-2013 3:45pm

If they can't afford to pay Kimi there is no way in hell they can afford to pay Alonso.

Torqay · 13-10-2013 4:07pm

Rascasse wrote: »

If they can't afford to pay Kimi there is no way in hell they can afford to pay Alonso.

1. They do need a top driver to secure sponsoring money. (Renault might jump in again, they are majority shareholder and engine supplier after all)

2. Grosjean has been putting in decent performance lately but he doesn't have the experience nor the consistency. (personally, I still think, he's a mad f*ck and shouldn't be driving F1 at all)

2. Massa is not a top driver, he hasn't won a race in five years. Not good enough if you're driving a Ferrari.

2. Telefonica goes wherever Alonso goes, they'll pay his salary. Kimi doesn't have this financial background.

Rascasse · 13-10-2013 4:26pm

Torqay wrote: »

1. They do need a top driver to secure sponsoring money. (Renault might jump in again, they're majority shareholders and engine supplier after all)

Renault are not a majority shareholder and I don't think they are a shareholder at all. Lotus are owned by a couple of rich chaps from Luxembourg via their investment vehicle Genii Capital. They've gotten bored with losing money in F1 (or are feeling the pinch) and to help pay down debts recently sold 35% to Infinity Racing, though they renamed themselves Quantum racing this week due to confusion with Infiniti the Red Bull sponsor.

Another reason Renault won't step in is that Infiniti sponsorship of Red Bull, Infiniti = Nissan = Renault.

Torqay wrote: »

2. Grosjean has been putting in decent performance lately but he doesn't have the experience nor the consistency. (personally, I still think, he's a mad f*ck and shouldn't be driving F1 at all)

Perhaps, but I'd dare say he is cheap and is certainly fast at times. I think he is still managed by Boullier too, which helps.

Torqay wrote: »

2. Massa is not a top driver, he hasn't won a race in five years. Not good enough if you're driving a Ferrari.

But if Massa does have maybe $20m from Petrobras then, considering Lotus posted the biggest loss ever by an F1 team last season, they'd be mad not to take him on. He may not be as fast as Alonso but he isn't slow by any stretch. As a bonus he is much shorter than Hulkenburg and up to 18kg lighter.

Torqay wrote: »

2. Telefonica goes wherever Alonso goes, they'll pay his salary. Kimi doesn't have this financial background.

Telefonica haven't been a major F1 sponsor in years. They are also not doing well financially, hence them selling o2 Ireland to Hutchison Whampoa (3). Santander is the sponsor currently associated with Alonso.

Torqay · 13-10-2013 4:50pm

Rascasse wrote: »

Telefonica haven't been a major F1 sponsor in years. They are also not doing well financially, hence them selling o2 Ireland to Hutchison Whampoa (3). Santander is the sponsor currently associated with Alonso.

Right, but paying Alonso's salary shouldn't be much of an issue.

Alonso came to Ferrari only after they've paid Kimi to get lost. And now they're bringing him back in? Alonso must be fuming. If he wants another shot at the title, the last thing he needs is a team mate who considers himself equal.

And what else could Lotus possibly playing at when they didn't hire Huelkenberg, arguably the best driver who is (officially) available?

Max_Charger · 13-10-2013 4:53pm

Torqay wrote: »

There just aren't that many top-class drivers on the market except maybe Felipe Massa.

Torqay wrote: »

2. Massa is not a top driver

Some man for arguments

Rascasse · 13-10-2013 4:59pm

If Alonso ends up anywhere but Ferrari it'll be McLaren. Santander are already a sponsor so there's an efficiency there, maybe use the cash saved to buy Alonso out of his Ferrari contract (if required). Would be tough for Jenson. Then Hulkenburg to partner Kimi at Ferrari would make sense.

Unlikely Alonso would leave Ferrari though...

Torqay · 13-10-2013 5:00pm

Max_Charger wrote: »

Some man for arguments

Torqay · 13-10-2013 5:27pm

Rascasse wrote: »

If Alonso ends up anywhere but Ferrari it'll be McLaren. Santander are already a sponsor so there's an efficiency there, maybe use the cash saved to buy Alonso out of his Ferrari contract (if required). Would be tough for Jenson. Then Hulkenburg to partner Kimi at Ferrari would make sense.

Unlikely Alonso would leave Ferrari though...

McLaren might be another option, but I don't see them coming back anytime soon (not even with Ross Brawn joining them next year). Their hopes clearly lie with the Honda engines in 2015 and even then they might be struggling for few more years before they’ll become competitive again.

Whereas Lotus F1 has been consistently improving over the last three years, there is clearly a trend. I'd say, if given the choice, in the last two races Alonso would have loved driving a Lotus rather than his Ferrari... or a McLaren for that matter.

Vegeta · 13-10-2013 10:56pm

Rascasse wrote: »

He didn't have to make three stops. He was on course for his target lap to make a two stop when the team changed strategy as they said they needed to do it to beat Grosjean, he asked if they were sure and they said yes. In reality it appears as though this was RB engineering the correct 1-2 knowing Webber wouldn't pull over for Seb.

Exactly my thoughts on it too. Must look at lap times around pit stops tomorrow and see if Webber was genuinely struggling with tyre wear.

Torqay · 13-10-2013 11:38pm

Rascasse wrote: »

In reality it appears

What's it gonna be now? ^^

ZiabR · 14-10-2013 9:32am

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Well done to Esteban Guiterrez for scoring his first points of the season. Hulkenberg had another great race too.

Sauber are having a far better second half of the season compared to the first.

Would agree here, Guiterrez even had some fight in him during the race, was great to see. Was surprised to hear what Brundle was saying about Hulk. Apparently Brundle was asking certain members of other teams what they thought of Hulk. A few thought he is overrated. Brundle could not go into detail but he himself was surprised.

I think he is a real talent and deserves a good drive next year.

_rebelkid · 14-10-2013 10:50am

Vegeta wrote: »

Exactly my thoughts on it too. Must look at lap times around pit stops tomorrow and see if Webber was genuinely struggling with tyre wear.

From what I saw of from Sky's Ted Kravitz, and BBC's Gary Anderson, they both say Mark could have stayed out for another 8/9 laps. Red Bull made the commitment early to the 3 stop, and stuck with it even though they could see that Seb could go longer on the same compound. Here's a link to Gary's summation of the events.

It really does seem that the team threw Marks race so they could definitely get Seb the championship in India (seeing as he only needs 10 points...)

Another interesting things is that Massa disobeyed team orders during the race. Remember "Multifunction strategy A"? The A stands for Alonso. BUT, seeing as Felipe won't be in Ferrari next year, he decided to not bother with it. And Ferrari, even more surprisingly, aren't going to do anything about it, because it actually worked out in their favour; they got the maximum constructors points they could have, and that is where their focus is now.

Jordan 199 · 14-10-2013 1:20pm

logik wrote: »

Would agree here, Guiterrez even had some fight in him during the race, was great to see. Was surprised to hear what Brundle was saying about Hulk. Apparently Brundle was asking certain members of other teams what they thought of Hulk. A few thought he is overrated. Brundle could not go into detail but he himself was surprised.

I think he is a real talent and deserves a good drive next year.

He does indeed.

And on another note, Sauber are 17 points behind Force India in the Constructors Championship.

If Force India continue to have sh1tty races and both the Sauber boys continue to score points in the remaining races, Sauber should be able to secure 6th in the Constructors Championship.

smellslikeshoes · 14-10-2013 2:15pm

Jordan 191 wrote: »

He does indeed.

And on another note, Sauber are 17 points behind Force India in the Constructors Championship.

If Force India continue to have sh1tty races and both the Sauber boys continue to score points in the remaining races, Sauber should be able to secure 6th in the Constructors Championship.

It's also not too outside the realms of possibility with their current form that they could take Mclaren aswell. They need 38 points to catch up to where Mclaren are now, that would be an average of 9.5 points between 2 drivers for the last 4 races. Assuming Mclaren pick up another few points all Sauber would need is for the Hulk to finish in the 5-6th sort of area for the last 4 races and Gutierrez to pick up another few and they would be around the right place. The Hulk is also a bit of a Interlagos specialist having took pole in 2010 and almost winning it last year so you never know how that could play out also.

Torqay · 14-10-2013 2:48pm

_rebelkid wrote: »

It really does seem that the team threw Marks race

What are you talking about? Red Bull got 43 points, i.e. the maximum possible, they didn't "throw" anything.

If Mark Webber couldn't manage to pass Grosjean immediately on fresh medium compund tyres (as his team mate did on older and harder tyres) then you can't blame the team. Webber wasting 5 laps behind Grosjean cost him the chance to catch up with Vettel, not some "team conspiracy".

Look at Vettel's move against Grosjean, he attacked immediately after the last corner, with KERS and DRS open. Webber tried three times to use the slipstream and make his move at the end of that downhill straight and it didn't work out.

Rascasse · 14-10-2013 3:08pm

Torqay wrote: »

What are you talking about? Red Bull got 43 points, i.e. the maximum possible, they didn't "throw" anything.

If Mark Webber couldn't manage to pass Grosjean immediately on fresh medium compund tyres (as his team mate did on older and harder tyres) then you can't blame the team. Webber wasting 5 laps behind Grosjean cost him the chance to catch up with Vettel, not some "team conspiracy".

Look at Vettel's move against Grosjean, he attacked immediately after the last corner, with KERS and DRS open. Webber tried three times to use the slipstream and make his move at the end of that downhill straight and it didn't work out.

You are completely missing the point, I assume deliberately.

Vegeta · 14-10-2013 3:10pm

Did you read Gary Anderson's article Torqay?

Torqay · 14-10-2013 4:20pm

Vegeta wrote: »

Did you read Gary Anderson's article Torqay?

Just did and I don't agree. They did not pick the wrong strategy for the "lead car", they picked they right strategy for the team. RB scoring 43 points and their championship leader extending his lead only confirms it. The fans of the No. 2 driver may not like it but from the team's point of view it does not get any better. They had faith in Vettel to win the race on a two-stop strategy and why risk Webber's tyres going over the cliff at the end of the race. Changing strategies was the best thing RB could do after Grosjean had caught them by surprise at the start. Telling Vettel to sit back to save his tyres and have Webber mounting pressure on Grosjean and eventually forcing Lotus' hand with an early stop played out brilliantly in their favour.

Vegeta · 14-10-2013 5:23pm

Torqay wrote: »

they picked they right strategy for the team

I'm not discussing the moral rights or wrongs or what was best suited to the team.

I simply believe, like you state above, the team did pick this and could have easily had the finishers the other way around if they saw fit.

Myrddin · 14-10-2013 6:46pm

Vegeta wrote: »

I'm not discussing the moral rights or wrongs or what was best suited to the team.

I simply believe, like you state above, the team did pick this and could have easily had the finishers the other way around if they saw fit.

Webber is the kind of driver though, that if he did feel screwed over by the team, it would have been apparent by his comments/demeanor. He appeared content enough with the results on the day, & seemed happy enough with how it worked out given the different strategies. I think if he felt he was robbed of the win, that wouldn't have been the case

14-10-2013 6:59pm

_rebelkid wrote: »

From what I saw of from Sky's Ted Kravitz, and BBC's Gary Anderson, they both say Mark could have stayed out for another 8/9 laps. Red Bull made the commitment early to the 3 stop, and stuck with it even though they could see that Seb could go longer on the same compound. Here's a link to Gary's summation of the events.

It really does seem that the team threw Marks race so they could definitely get Seb the championship in India (seeing as he only needs 10 points...)

Why didn't Webber drive up to the back of Grosjean before pitting then?

Vegeta · 14-10-2013 10:46pm

Myrddin wrote: »

Webber is the kind of driver though, that if he did feel screwed over by the team, it would have been apparent by his comments/demeanor. He appeared content enough with the results on the day, & seemed happy enough with how it worked out given the different strategies. I think if he felt he was robbed of the win, that wouldn't have been the case

He hasn't gone as far as calling favoritism for Seb but he certainly isn't happy bout strategy call

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24511974

Also Horner's claims of wearing the tyres out is a bit strange considering the lap times don't reflect this at all (filter for Webber, Vettel and Grosjean times)

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/10/13/2013-japanese-grand-prix-lap-times-and-fastest-laps-2/

cadaliac · 14-10-2013 11:03pm

Looks very much like Horner made the call for Seb rather than Webber. Well that's what it looks like to me anyway.
If I were him, I might have done the same tbh.
After all, Seb is gunning for the championship and why risk anything that could risk the c'ship. Make it safe at any given opportunity.
Webber is gone at the end of the season regardless of the results yesterday. I'm not saying that it makes for "fair" racing but i can see and understand why they did what they did.
Just my 2c.

Torqay · 14-10-2013 11:04pm

Vegeta wrote: »

the team did pick this and could have easily had the finishers the other way around if they saw fit.

And why should they? They have two tasks at hand: extend the lead in the Constructors' championship and in the Drivers' championship.

Why should RBR pick a strategy that favours Webber? He decided to leave the team. He does not play a role in the drivers' championship. It is not Red Bull's job to make Webber a happy puppy nor is it their job to keep the championship open.

Formula 1 2013: Round 15 - Japanese Grand Prix

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