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Free travel passes not to be touched in budget - Minister Burton

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The rise in the number of people diagnosed with an emotional or psychological condition some degree of mental illness or depression that is bad enough that they can’t work is mostly due to certain conditions being included in the list of conditions which if long term can render a person disabled. Many of these people were looked after by family and survived before on JSA and strong medications but it was then possibly rightly decided that someone on such medication was not fit or capable of working due to health and safety concerns and the old "get over it" and "you need to get out more" attitude to mental illness once practiced by the state has thankfully changed!

    So...you would'nt go along with any other possible explanation then....?
    Of course, there is also the possibility that some people are seeking to have a condition diagnosed in order to stay on benefits indefinitely and to avoid their long-term benefits becoming conditional on having to go out looking for work.

    As McWilliams states,the current level of INCREASE in Disability levels is pointing to something seriously wrong with Irelands people,and it is verging on epidemic proportions....but as he points out....
    People on disability don’t show up in any of the places we usually look to see how the economy is doing. But the story of these programmes – who goes on them, and why, and what happens after that – is, to a large extent, an undocumented one.

    It is perhaps indicative of how this country operates,that the greatest level of actual documentation on the problem may well be The number of Free Travel Scheme recipients categorized as being in reciept of a "Disability" related benefit....:confused:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,680 ✭✭✭flutered


    perhaps i am wrong in this but does any one in recipt of a state pension gets one, add to that any one over seventy is entitled to one, regardless of income, before last years budget rte six one done a piece on this, a very well dressed elderly couple left their nice simi, took the bus to town for the day, they explained that they sold their car with the savings they were delighted, one pair of their shoes cost more than the weekley payment to a couple on dissibility, never mind the cost od their headgear, scarves and coats, so hear on boards we have folks bitchin about the disabled having free travel and also not working, the couple that i have alluded to are possibly retired civil servants, the core voters that labour are trrying to hang on to, i have a free travel pass, i have used it one this year, to attend the remedial cilinic in dunlaoire, who is the elephant in the room, me or the couple tipping off to cork belfast or where ever for the day, as it also saves them heating the house while out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    flutered wrote: »
    perhaps i am wrong in this but does any one in recipt of a state pension gets one, add to that any one over seventy is entitled to one, regardless of income, before last years budget rte six one done a piece on this, a very well dressed elderly couple left their nice simi, took the bus to town for the day, they explained that they sold their car with the savings they were delighted, one pair of their shoes cost more than the weekley payment to a couple on dissibility, never mind the cost od their headgear, scarves and coats, so hear on boards we have folks bitchin about the disabled having free travel and also not working, the couple that i have alluded to are possibly retired civil servants, the core voters that labour are trrying to hang on to, i have a free travel pass, i have used it one this year, to attend the remedial cilinic in dunlaoire, who is the elephant in the room, me or the couple tipping off to cork belfast or where ever for the day, as it also saves them heating the house while out.

    Nobody on here has bitched about the disabled getting free travel.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Nobody on here has bitched about the disabled getting free travel.

    That is true, they have just bitched about the disabled being wasters who won't work because they are too lazy, implying that many are cheating the system in some way to get a disability pension or invalidity pension. Or about them owning fancy iPads or mobile phones or being dressed up nice when they go on the bus or train!


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Lads, everybody -- cut it out.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,342 ✭✭✭✭starlit


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    They are capping payments and cutting people off who are wrongfully claiming. Nothing wrong with real change and its very popular with the workers of the UK.

    Over here was have:
    SF - everybody will be rich when we get power
    LAB - we care about people on welfare and not normal working people
    FF - well make you own choice (vote calculating)
    FG - willing to rock the boat but not to much to much for a backlash
    Ind - parish pump

    OAP's splash the cash on board for snacks which when booked early will cost as much as a train ticket online.

    You still have the cost of booking a prepaid seat for the train too so often added expenses regardless if people paid full whack for a ticket or use travel pass. So the Government are still getting their money from elsewhere even if it not from price of a train ticket they are pricing it else where to get back their moneys worth! Even to get a cup of tea or coffee on train is pricer than at a restaurant or cafe!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    That is true, they have just bitched about the disabled being wasters who won't work because they are too lazy, implying that many are cheating the system in some way to get a disability pension or invalidity pension. Or about them owning fancy iPads or mobile phones or being dressed up nice when they go on the bus or train!

    You can be sure that there are some out there who are, these are the ones that should be targeted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    flutered wrote: »
    the couple that i have alluded to are possibly retired civil servants
    So what?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    This post has been deleted.

    You saying there isnt and they shouldnt be touched?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Snake


    road_high wrote: »
    Burton is an absolute disaster in SW. At a time when the whole system is ripe for reform she has made no attempt to reform. Just increase the taxes on the rest of us gob****es. God forbid soem of the highest SW rate in the world be cut or scaled regardless of whether you've worked a day in your life or not.
    Sorry to go off in a tangent but that Minister is woeful.

    Aye cut my welfare, it's not like my baby will go hungry or anything. I can only afford to eat sandwiches this week because AIB took half my money in their quarterly charges, defiantly cut away.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    This post has been deleted.

    Not at all and havent implied otherwise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    GrayFox208 wrote: »
    Aye cut my welfare, it's not like my baby will go hungry or anything. I can only afford to eat sandwiches this week because AIB took half my money in their quarterly charges, defiantly cut away.

    There are a lot of workers on the breadline too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,898 ✭✭✭squonk


    Speaking as a disabled pass holder, I have to say that I think the OAPs deserve their passes. Like any other demographic, you have those who may not need it but others that most definitely do. Also, being elderly, you are more prone to life altering events such as onset of blindness, arthritis etc. Just because someone doesn't need a pass today, doesn't say that they won't need it a month or a year down the road. It's also worth bearing in mind that these people have paid a lifetime of taxes and social welfare contributions. I'm all for them getting something they're earned.

    The FTS system for disabled people does need to be nailed down as right now it's too easy for friends/family to use a holder's pass to travel for free. Each pass should uniquely identify it's holder and be non copyable/transferrable in any way. I believe the department are working on that and I support that initiative.

    I need my pass as I can't drive. There are times it is useful to bring a companion with me for various reasons. It's not always possible to know when I'll need to bring someone and who I'll need to bring so I would not be supportive of allowing only named companions to be included in the pass scheme. Life's circumstances don't work like that.

    I treat having my pass as a privilege and don't take it for granted but it's a great aid to living a normal life. I can and do work so I'm paying my way and contributing back to the system. One of the problems with a disability however is that you never know when circumstances will change and the disability can become worse. I don't take it for granted that I'll be able to work til retirement age. Most likely I will but if past a certain age, my disability becomes worse, the effort/time required to readjust may not be worth it based on my age or responsibility level and then the most logical choice will be to leave the workforce, so the pass becomes even more useful.

    In general I think those with a defined physical disability should only be entitled to a disability travel pass. If you have the ability to drive but have some other condition that does not prohibit you from driving, then you shouldn't be granted a pass IMHO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    You can be sure that there are some out there who are, these are the ones that should be targeted.

    Targetting is not a term we like to see used for anything round these parts,particularly when it's about the Big BAD State trying to impose some order on it's citizens....

    But the "Between The Lines" readers should be very active after the Luas 10Th Birthday celebration comments by the Ministerial duo here....

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/scrapping-of-free-travel-pass-not-on-the-agenda-30396029.html
    Minister Varadakar said that "any suggestion that we are going to take away the free travel pass for pensioners just isn't on the agenda", but that there are issues surrounding it which need to be addressed, particularly in relation to the issue of "fraud and IDs".

    The continued fixation of the media on The Free Travel Scheme being a dedicated OAP specific scheme,is a Godsend to Ministers such as Leo V,as it allows them to make statements such as the above,without having to elaborate that "Pensioners" make up less than 50% of the Scheme's Members ;)

    Equally interesting is the news that the scheme was "recently reviewed by a working group comprised of members from an interdepartmental government panel and the National Transport Authority",as it confirms the scale of the review.

    The essence of the problem was well summed up by Kevin Traynor of the Coach Tourism Transport Council ..."What you have to remember is that while revenues have stayed static, costs haven't," he said. "Costs of diesel, wages, parts and there is more and more legislation coming in to this area so there are even costs associated with that as well." - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/scrapping-of-free-travel-pass-not-on-the-agenda-30396029.html#sthash.pbh34g5n.dpuf

    Watch this space.....:)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    squonk wrote: »

    The FTS system for disabled people does need to be nailed down as right now it's too easy for friends/family to use a holder's pass to travel for free. Each pass should uniquely identify it's holder and be non copyable/transferrable in any way.I believe the department are working on that and I support that initiative.

    I need my pass as I can't drive. There are times it is useful to bring a companion with me for various reasons. It's not always possible to know when I'll need to bring someone and who I'll need to bring so I would not be supportive of allowing only named companions to be included in the pass scheme. Life's circumstances don't work like that.

    I treat having my pass as a privilege and don't take it for granted but it's a great aid to living a normal life. I can and do work so I'm paying my way and contributing back to the system. One of the problems with a disability however is that you never know when circumstances will change and the disability can become worse. I don't take it for granted that I'll be able to work til retirement age. Most likely I will but if past a certain age, my disability becomes worse, the effort/time required to readjust may not be worth it based on my age or responsibility level and then the most logical choice will be to leave the workforce, so the pass becomes even more useful.

    In general I think those with a defined physical disability should only be entitled to a disability travel pass. If you have the ability to drive but have some other condition that does not prohibit you from driving, then you shouldn't be granted a pass IMHO.

    Well said Squonk,as you very clearly identify one of the area's which is under close scrutiny...the nature of the usage of the "Companion" facility.

    The granting of Companion status is conditional on fulfilling the DSP's requirements,which are quite clearly outlined here...

    http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Appendix-1---Free-Travel-Companion-Pass.aspx

    The focus has,apparently been on the apparent ease with which the medically certified criteria can be met..
    You are aged 66 to 69 inclusive and are medically assessed as unfit to travel alone,
    You are aged 70 or over and are medically unfit to travel alone,

    And,
    Free Travel Passholders aged under 66:

    You are getting Disability Allowance or Invalidity Pension or Disablement Pension and Incapacity Supplement and are medically assessed as unfit to travel alone,

    The situation,as I see it,will initially be addressed by a somewhat more restrictive MEDICAL assessment,as this can be done without getting too "Political" and also recognised how the definition of "Disability" has broadened considerably since the inception of the Free Travel Scheme,which it must be pointed out was conceived (and funded) as a specifically AGE related scheme.

    What many fail to realize is that the Irish Free Travel Scheme,in terms of it's scope is (I would suggest) unique in Europe,if not the World,yet it remains virtually unmonitored and uncontrolled in it's use...:)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    I'm Generally OK with the Pensioners getting free travel of course I doubt anyone will say no to them after working their whole lives of course but the scheme as a whole really needs sorting out.

    The whole disabled area is grossly open to abuse as is the companion addition. As far as I'm concerned the whole scheme needs to rebuilt with the companion system done away with due to the sheer exploitation of it and each person having their own card. As far as pensioners go each should have their own card only for themselves. In addition as far as disabled passes go, only those who are completely disabled and unable to work due to severely crippling disabilities like being unable to walk or see for example should be entitled to a pass for themselves. If your able to work you should be paying your own way regardless of wether your able to drive or not. Might seem harsh but as far as I can see it if your able to work you able to make a living and pay for your own travel needs like every other person who works to pay their way on public transport. Looks ridiculous when your seeing a middle aged person or someone in their 20's and in a suit with a free pass it makes a complete mockery out of genuine people who are paying their own way.

    Above all there should be no passes just because your unemployed (ie. no free travel for junkies that wont ever work or bother to try and improve their lives only ruin other peoples) and this is the area that needs clamping down big time as these junkies not only dont pay anything but they tend to act the maggot causing trouble on transport and driving people away.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    This post has been deleted.

    Sadly I've seen people in buisness suits and suitcases coming through stations with passes of various ages so theres definately those out there doing it and taking the mikey out of the honest joe.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Infini2 wrote: »
    Sadly I've seen people in buisness suits and suitcases coming through stations with passes of various ages so theres definately those out there doing it and taking the mikey out of the honest joe.
    How do you know they are working? Maybe they are off to some relatives funeral or going to a wedding or just like wearing suits?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    This post has been deleted.

    I know people who commute to work 5 days a week using their free travel passes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    I know people who commute to work 5 days a week using their free travel passes.
    Ah yes the "carers" pass plays a big part in this. Many people who are carers for a disabled child or parent or sibling will be entitled to a pass even if they only care for the other person an hour or two a day. They can drop their charge in the morning paper and make them breakfast and then head off to work on the pass and back home again in time to make the tea.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    This post has been deleted.

    What rules? The government are giving them away like they are going out of fashion. If you have one, use the hell out of it.

    Literally hundreds of thousands of other people are.

    The entire free travel scheme is a joke that isn't seen anywhere else in the civilized world. You have public transport companies who are cutting services, cutting wages, increasing fares and experiencing regular overcrowding on certain routes but you won't even consider placing any type of restriction on the free All-Ireland travel that nearly a quarter of the nation are availing of.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 302 ✭✭RFOLEY1990


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Pass Holders of Pensionable age account for less than HALF of the total number of Free Travel Documents in circulation.

    this is where the real problem with the pass is, imo


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    The older folk at retirement now are getting more sh!t than the government because of a bloody free travel pass. Some comment's I read here are just the same ole idiots complaining day in and day out about me me me and I have to pay for them old folk out of my wages as being taxed to do so. A bunch of fooking babies you are.

    This country wouldn't be so nice for you and your kids today if they hadn't have put the effort into making it a better place for you so have some respect and go back to mammy and cry to her about your woes, I'm sure she will slap you on the face for being a complete ignorant disrespectful bastard.

    Let the old timers have their free travel cards, because they fecking deserve it. Who are you going to pick on next ?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    RFOLEY1990 wrote: »
    this is where the real problem with the pass is, imo

    Certain addresses in Irish cities seem to entitle you to a pass.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Bongalongherb: The older folk at retirement now are getting more sh!t than the government because of a bloody free travel pass. Some comment's I read here are just the same ole idiots complaining day in and day out about me me me and I have to pay for them old folk out of my wages as being taxed to do so. A bunch of fooking babies you are.

    I think perhaps you may re-read the thread,as the distinction is VERY clearly made about just how the Free Travel Scheme is most Definitely NOT the preserve of OAP's any longer.

    Minister Varadakar in his wide ranging interview with RTE's Sean O Rourke went to great pains to (Correctly) reassure the OAP sector of the Free Travel Scheme's continuance.

    Just to recap,and for further cinsideration,the issue is about how the currently MASSIVE Free Travel entitlement can be funded,bearing in mind the huge yearly increases in those availing of it,versus the freezing of funding since 2010.

    One does'nt have to be an idiot,ole or otherwise,to recognize an impending collapse under the conditions now being experienced UNLESS some form of corrective action is taken...which is exactly what Mr Varadakar is most definitely suggesting.

    AlekSmart wrote: »
    .
    With approximately 3,000,000 ADULT's in our Population and a Labour Force of 2,154,000 (http://www.indexmundi.com/ireland/labor_force.html) there is a definite Mathematical problem as to how a universal Free Travel entitlement can be funded for 1,110,000 persons .

    Of the c.760,000 Free Travel passes in circulation the majority(>344,000) are now in the possession of NON OAP recipients.
    :)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    I think perhaps you may re-read the thread,as the distinction is VERY clearly made about just how the Free Travel Scheme is most Definitely NOT the preserve of OAP's any longer.

    Minister Varadakar in his wide ranging interview with RTE's Sean O Rourke went to great pains to (Correctly) reassure the OAP sector of the Free Travel Scheme's continuance.

    Just to recap,and for further cinsideration,the issue is about how the currently MASSIVE Free Travel entitlement can be funded,bearing in mind the huge yearly increases in those availing of it,versus the freezing of funding since 2010.

    One does'nt have to be an idiot,ole or otherwise,to recognize an impending collapse under the conditions now being experienced UNLESS some form of corrective action is taken...which is exactly what Mr Varadakar is most definitely suggesting.



    :)

    Regarding your comment... It is complete and utter bullsh!t in the extreme.

    May the Gods of text have mercy on your soul.


    Ah sure the government will be sleeping with the dead soon. If they cut this (below) then what else will they cut for the older folk ? and the rest of us ? the bastards that they are.
    The Government has defended its decision to cut grants to the families of the deceased.

    Brendan Howlin said the scrapping of the Bereavement Grant was the fairest way of taking money from older generations.

    The €850 grant to cover the costs of a funeral was scrapped in today's Budget, 15/10/2013

    But Minister Howlin says the other options would have been much more difficult
    .

    "We've done our level best, as with all social welfare payments, to maintain what we call a threshold of decency," he said.

    He said none of the other available options "recommend themselves as easy."

    From a waster politician.


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