Free travel passes not to be touched in budget - Minister Burton

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They are capping payments and cutting people off who are wrongfully claiming. Nothing wrong with real change and its very popular with the workers of the UK.

Over here was have:
SF - everybody will be rich when we get power
LAB - we care about people on welfare and not normal working people
FF - well make you own choice (vote calculating)
FG - willing to rock the boat but not to much to much for a backlash
Ind - parish pump

OAP's splash the cash on board for snacks which when booked early will cost as much as a train ticket online.

Over the last 5-8 years they have been reviewing all claims in the uk and disallowing those who previously were the most eligible because they are able to walk a few metres at a time etc People who can walk maybe ten meters even though it takes them about 30 minutes to do so are having their disability cut off because they are deemed fit for certain types of employment, they then fail to state what employer looking for an able bodied person is going to take on a person who basically cant walk?

People are milking the system both here and there(the uk has more mobility scooters per head than any other country afaik) but the answer is not to penalise those most in need.

Otherwise we end up like the UKIP party who blame their own failings on the most vulnerable in society.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is more about the impact on a persons day to day life and even quality of life for many, than their ability to generate income. If that is your only criteria than you will be removing free travel from the mentally handicapped and mentally retarded, people with downs syndrome and other such conditions.the Special Olympics won't be much fun when many of the participants can't afford to get there! Didn't Ireland host the Special Olympics World Games in 2003, how would that have appeared to the world if most Irish athletes were stuck at home because they could not afford the transport to the games?

This is just one aspect of a very complex issue but looking at it as a single expenditure is not giving the free travel scheme its full value.

They did a lot of fundraising.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They did a lot of fundraising.

The normal Irish special Olympics that takes place could not proceed if all those taking part and many of the helpers,stewards etc who are also disabled had to pay for their own travel and the same goes for the world games in 2003.

The fundraising and sponsorship all helped and made it possible but so did free travel for many of the participants

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Free travel for carers needs to be removed as those who require a carer with them while travelling are already covered by the companion pass. also might be worth considering off peak travel only for OAP's while the disabled get to keep their full travel.

Also this and other payments like the ESB allowance should be means tested for all eligible applicants imho but the childrens allowance should not be even considered for means testing.

If you mean disabled in the likes of wheelchair users , visually and physical impaired and mentally handicaped etc then ye, they should be left alone and only these should be allowed companions to travel with them and these only to get the passed under the Disabled banner. Get rid of the pass altogether for those who are fit enough to travel on their own especially when they use it to go to work and bring a friend shopping .
Leave the pass alone for the OAP but only allow one person to travel per pass and not companions or spouse and partners. If they want to bring a friend or partner shopping then they should pay like everyone else.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Fair enough about the off peak limitation, but someone appearing to be fit and healthy does not mean they are fit enough to work or hold down a job, I know a few people with epilepsy and at least one who cant work or drive or even cycle a bike because although on medication the fits are so violent and sudden there would be no way they can be walking around any workplace safely. as far as disability goes appearances can be very deceiving.

Id say tough luck on that one, they could always be self employed or work from home or do buying and selling around the country etc.
If the fits are so violent then public transport is not safe for them.

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

With the new free travel version of the new welfare services card there is an opportunity to have a three strikes rule where those engaging in anti-social behaviour can be given three chances and then their free travel removed.

And the first attempt to do this would see CIE, the DSP and whoever else was involved in this decision losing in court for trying to take away someones "entitlement".

I've said it before, once you give someone something in this country it's next to near impossible to take it off them for any reason.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

And the first attempt to do this would see CIE, the DSP and whoever else was involved in this decision losing in court for trying to take away someones "entitlement".

I've said it before, once you give someone something in this country it's next to near impossible to take it off them for any reason.

Well then just use the legislation that is already in place and slap such offenders with a public transport asbo banning them from public transport for a certain length of time to see if that motivates them to amend their ways.

flutered

mickydoomsux wrote: »

There's no actual statistics available for this and most of the "official" claims are coming from special interest groups.

my pension has droped from €213 to €193 since the crash, , also please remember that we have to pay someone to do anything and everything around the home, the add ons have been cut, the cost of the basics has risen, whatever pinicheno kenny says we all partied, i did not party, i did not have the money, i doubt if any other disabled person has partied, how can we work as some on here suggest, a suggestion was made that someone could buy and sell, take a look at adverts.ie, then see what offers are made for items, more importantly, where coulss the stock be bought without money, we can not get a morgage or antything else foe that matter.

BowWow

http://www.thejournal.ie/free-travel-burton-1539854-Jun2014/


Hard to believe its 9 months since she last announced it. You'd swear there was a leadership election or something.........

flutered

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Id say tough luck on that one, they could always be self employed or work from home or do buying and selling around the country etc.
If the fits are so violent then public transport is not safe for them.

the above post is so full of puke and $chite, it is so unreal, straight from fantasy land.

Hilly Bill

flutered wrote: »

the above post is so full of puke and $chite, it is so unreal, straight from fantasy land.

Explain why.

Hilly Bill

flutered wrote: »

my pension has droped from €213 to €193 since the crash, , also please remember that we have to pay someone to do anything and everything around the home, the add ons have been cut, the cost of the basics has risen, whatever pinicheno kenny says we all partied, i did not party, i did not have the money, i doubt if any other disabled person has partied, how can we work as some on here suggest, a suggestion was made that someone could buy and sell, take a look at adverts.ie, then see what offers are made for items, more importantly, where coulss the stock be bought without money, we can not get a morgage or antything else foe that matter.

Now name the free things you get.

Why cant you? A lot of disabled people work.

flutered

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Explain why.

read it slowly with an open mind.

flutered

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Now name the free things you get.

Why cant you? A lot of disabled people work.

if they are pain free then yes.

Hilly Bill

flutered wrote: »

read it slowly with an open mind.

Ye, that explains your reasoning brilliantly. Thanks .

Hilly Bill

flutered wrote: »

if they are pain free then yes.

Always some excuse.

end of the road

QUOTE=Emme;91008752]I think one of the reason that certain train lines get run down is the demographic of people living in the area.[/QUOTE]

in other countries yes, in ireland, well, you know the real reason

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

All they are doing in the UK is cutting off people in genuine need!

Imagine asking a double leg amputee how far they can travel unaided by crutches or prosthetics and refusing them because they can manage to cover a few metres on their ass across the floor!

Hopefully rotten bastards like that never get any say in how decisions are made on disability here.

i'm no fan of the tories, but the situation there seems to me to be due to the outsourcing of means tests to get them done on the cheep?

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They are capping payments and cutting people off who are wrongfully claiming along with many who are in need. Nothing wrong with real change and its very popular with the daily mail readers of the UK and those who are angry at everyone and everything

fixed that for you Jamie

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

fixed that for you Jamie

Nothing to be fixed, Ireland is the best place on the planet to be unemployed once you have a few kids to be the cash cows!

sasta le

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If you mean disabled in the likes of wheelchair users , visually and physical impaired and mentally handicaped etc then ye, they should be left alone and only these should be allowed companions to travel with them and these only to get the passed under the Disabled banner. Get rid of the pass altogether for those who are fit enough to travel on their own especially when they use it to go to work and bring a friend shopping .
Leave the pass alone for the OAP but only allow one person to travel per pass and not companions or spouse and partners. If they want to bring a friend or partner shopping then they should pay like everyone else.

What is the wage of Matt English and the special olmpics people
Strange its not public knowledge

flutered

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Always some excuse.

as there is always some one who thinks the only person who is right are themselves, so social protection medical advisers are not as medically informed as a boards poster, nor would hospital consultants not be as medically advised, not to mind consultants in methods of pain relief, can you imagne what it is like be told by a consultant in pain relief, to go home and live away the best you can as i cannot do any more for you.

AlekSmart

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Now name the free things you get.

Why cant you? A lot of disabled people work.

Whenever this topic arises for discussion,the views rapidly polarise into either being pro or anti Disabled,Poor and/or OAP.

The reality,however,is somewhat more complex and,as with much in modern Irish society,eventually fall back on how the relevant benefit is to be funded,and therefore WHO is going to fund it.

With approximately 3 Million ADULT's in our Population and a Labour Force of 2,154,000 (http://www.indexmundi.com/ireland/labor_force.html) there is a definite Mathematical problem as to how a universal Free Travel entitlement can be funded for 1,110,000 persons .

Of the c.760,000 Free Travel passes in circulation the majority(>344,000) are now in the possession of NON OAP recipients.

The Quinn study of 2000,did attempt to show the expansion of the original OAP only FT scheme to include recipients of Disability Allowance to be a defining moment in how the viability of the entire scheme could be maintained,however it suited successive Governments to avoid looking too closely at the issue.

A major part of the Free Travel Scheme's funding problem now centre's on how to maintain this entitlement for a large group of people who no longer contribute to ANY of the Social Fund payment systems as they are now Disabled.

David McWilliams set of figures remain,to my eyes,a truly frightening vista,which to most reasonable people cannot be sustained....

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2013/04/04/the-mystery-of-disability

Meanwhile, the number of people leaving the labour force citing a psychological or emotional condition has risen even more dramatically – 88,000 people are now diagnosed with an emotional or psychological condition that is bad enough that they can’t work. This is a 27,000 rise from the same figure in 2006.

McWilliam's article is worth reading in it's entirety,and he does pose the rather pertinent question as to the reasons for this massive and sudden rise in persons disabled enough as to be unable to work (and therefore contribute to funding Social Schemes).

His final paragraph sez it all really......

Discussions on these issues tend to descend very easily into one side screaming “welfare fraud” and the other screaming “legitimate need”. These set pieces rarely produce anything other than reinforcing initial prejudices. However, a reasoned discussion as to why an increasing number of the Irish workforce are deemed unfit to work would seem like a sensible conversation to have.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Whenever this topic arises for discussion,the views rapidly polarise into either being pro or anti Disabled,Poor and/or OAP.

The reality,however,is somewhat more complex and,as with much in modern Irish society,eventually fall back on how the relevant benefit is to be funded,and therefore WHO is going to fund it.

With approximately 3 Million ADULT's in our Population and a Labour Force of 2,154,000 (http://www.indexmundi.com/ireland/labor_force.html) there is a definite Mathematical problem as to how a universal Free Travel entitlement can be funded for 1,110,000 persons .

Of the c.760,000 Free Travel passes in circulation the majority(>344,000) are now in the possession of NON OAP recipients.

The Quinn study of 2000,did attempt to show the expansion of the original OAP only FT scheme to include recipients of Disability Allowance to be a defining moment in how the viability of the entire scheme could be maintained,however it suited successive Governments to avoid looking too closely at the issue.

A major part of the Free Travel Scheme's funding problem now centre's on how to maintain this entitlement for a large group of people who no longer contribute to ANY of the Social Fund payment systems as they are now Disabled.

David McWilliams set of figures remain,to my eyes,a truly frightening vista,which to most reasonable people cannot be sustained....

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2013/04/04/the-mystery-of-disability



McWilliam's article is worth reading in it's entirety,and he does pose the rather pertinent question as to the reasons for this massive and sudden rise in persons disabled enough as to be unable to work (and therefore contribute to funding Social Schemes).

His final paragraph sez it all really......

The rise in the number of people diagnosed with an emotional or psychological condition some degree of mental illness or depression that is bad enough that they can’t work is mostly due to certain conditions being included in the list of conditions which if long term can render a person disabled. Many of these people were looked after by family and survived before on JSA and strong medications but it was then possibly rightly decided that someone on such medication was not fit or capable of working due to health and safety concerns and the old "get over it" and "you need to get out more" attitude to mental illness once practiced by the state has thankfully changed!

steveblack

the reason depression is stigmatised in ireland is because we all know of people who have nothing wrong with them, who have faked it for whatever reason. Those who are genuine get lumped in with the fakers.
want time of work, dont want to do a job interview, in ireland its easily solved.
Don’t shave for a week, go to the doctor, pick a spot on the wall and stare at it.Answer all questions with a mumbled don’t know.
These fakers get what they want, the Doctor gets paid, both parties are happy.
These fakes will get the free travel pass, they are the ones who will cause it to collapse and all the genuine people who should have the pass will lose it.

mickydoomsux

steveblack wrote: »

the reason depression is stigmatised in ireland is because we all know of people who have nothing wrong with them, who have faked it for whatever reason. Those who are genuine get lumped in with the fakers.
want time of work, dont want to do a job interview, in ireland its easily solved.
Don’t shave for a week, go to the doctor, pick a spot on the wall and stare at it.Answer all questions with a mumbled don’t know.
These fakers get what they want, the Doctor gets paid, both parties are happy.
These fakes will get the free travel pass, they are the ones who will cause it to collapse and all the genuine people who should have the pass will lose it.

You can lump drug addicts and alcoholics in to that as well.

:pac: "Why do you drink/shoot up?"

:pac: "I'm depressed"

:pac: "You are now considered disabled according to The Big Book. Let's get you signed up for the full-package!"

Emme

AlekSmart, thanks for the David McWilliams link. The figures are frightening. There are some interesting comments and it would take ages to read them all. Here is one of the first:

Wisconsin
April 4, 2013 at 7:45 pm
Welcome to the USA where we have an ever-expanding parasitic under-class on one end and a parasitic vampire class on the other end of the socioeconomic spectrum. At some point, the middle class is going to say no, good and hard. Keep up your good work, David!

Is Ireland getting more like the US? Perhaps the above explains the hardline attitude of Americans towards the weak in society. When too many people feign weakness for financial gain the truly weak lose out.

I wonder if one reason for the increase in people on disability is the decline in working conditions. I wonder is there a link between people leaving work on disability and a bullying culture in their workplace? Employers may be gaining from having employees on contracts instead of permanency but the price may be more people on disability "unable" to work or just "unwilling" to work under certain conditions. Those remaining in work pick up the slack.

It is really discouraging to board a packed evening train home from work exhausted and barely able to function while you file past people sitting down that you strongly suspect have free travel passes. I'm not talking about the elderly here. Some of these people drink on the train and behave in an antisocial manner. I think "why the hell am I killing myself working long hours, leaving the house before 7 and not getting in until after 8 getting more exhausted all the while while these people's benefits are sucking the taxpayer dry?"

I have a chronic illness which leaves me exhausted most of the time despite being on medication. I have had warnings in work due to "lapses in performance" related to my illness. The lapses in performance being that I am unable to work through lunch every day, come in early every morning and stay late every evening. Like everyone else, I have been given extra responsibilities while taking cuts in pay. If I didn't have the work ethic I have I would strongly be tempted to go on disability.

I would only go on disability if I was forced to do so due to ill health. However, having to work harder and longer to pay for Ireland's welfare state increases the chances of this.

Back to the topic. Morning trains are also very packed and many seats are taken up by pensioners using their travel passes. Fair enough. However, this is unsustainable if there isn't sufficient capacity for paying passengers to travel. They will vote with their feet and find alternative ways to travel while those who can travel free will continue to do so as long as they get travel passes.

Hilly Bill

sasta le wrote: »

What is the wage of Matt English and the special olmpics people
Strange its not public knowledge

Dont know him and what has it to do with the post you quoted?

Hilly Bill

flutered wrote: »

as there is always some one who thinks the only person who is right are themselves, so social protection medical advisers are not as medically informed as a boards poster, nor would hospital consultants not be as medically advised, not to mind consultants in methods of pain relief, can you imagne what it is like be told by a consultant in pain relief, to go home and live away the best you can as i cannot do any more for you.

I think you have jumped in without understanding what was being said but explain why you should get free travel.

end of the road

Emme wrote: »

if there isn't sufficient capacity for paying passengers to travel. They will vote with their feet and find alternative ways to travel while those who can travel free will continue to do so as long as they get travel passes.

thats what happens when we have only 3 and 4 car DMUS to work with, and not enough of the bluddy things