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M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [advance works to commence shortly]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,783 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Thirdly, this whole thing smacks of someone realising somewhere on Merrion Street last year that it will look horrific if the Ryder Cup takes place in 2027 and there is no bypass/bypass is under construction. So we get this half baked plan instead.

    I'd say it was the opposite to that, someone realised that the Ryder Cup could be used as an excuse to replace what should be done with a half baked plan.

    As you also have said, there is enough time to do the motorway section and what is now proposed is going to be inadequate for the Ryder Cup, there is no logic to diluting that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    This whole thing is happening in an attempt to save locals from the effects of the Ryder Cup. If the golf wasn't on, the project could proceed in a more normal manner.

    Visitors to the competition will have pretty much zero benefit from the bypass: if there was a six lane highway there, there would still be no private car access to the venue.

    Putting these works in place first means that locals can at least get out of Adare for the week of this thing. I see it as an guarantee against slippage of the main project. The other alternative, of building the eastern end to completion then starting on the western side would cost a lot more, and be a higher risk too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 291 ✭✭lmk123


    Some of the earthworks done 😂😂 they’ve stripped the top soil



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Sorry, by that I meant the dualling of the single carriageway from the end of the M20 to where the new road will branch off at Kilgobbin. That’ll just involve building the motorway on top of the existing single carriageway and can easily be done in 3 years



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I actually thought the same at first, that it was a cynical attempt to gut the motorway project by the usual suspects, but the 7km plan appeared to come from the local authority in the documents released under FOI



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭pigtown


    What's with the conspiracy theories? I highly doubt the EU would tolerate someone pulling a fast one with their money. And why would the government even want to?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,270 ✭✭✭source


    I think it's just a good old fashioned bit of cynicism. The old adage of once bit twice shy comes to mind, so many projects have been shelved or half arsed over the years it's no wonder that there's theories going around about how this project is being approached.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,783 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Visitors to the competition will have pretty much zero benefit from this version of the bypass but if there was motorway to west of Adare, there would be a benefit to everyone. Putting all traffic onto a single carriage section east of Adare and having to negotiate roundabouts will be a disaster. At least if there was the motorway, one lane could be made available for buses only. Now, buses will have to contend with local and longer distance traffic.

    If the motorway section was to be done now, if not all ready, you just open as far as Croagh as currently planned, while the contractor works away west of Croagh. The risk would be no higher than current. It would be far cheaper doing that than building 7km, then building a couple of km on both sides later under separate contracts, tying in, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,783 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    What EU money? I don't think they are contributing anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,270 ✭✭✭source


    It's part of the EU Ten-T network, but I'm not sure if that comes with funding.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Visitors to the golf competition have no use for the Adare Bypass at all. 99% of visitors will be coming from east of Adare, and the venue is on that side of the village. We are not rushing a motorway so that some lad in Kerry can drive in to see the golf.

    The only bearing the golf tournament has on the works is that it has prompted the provision of a temporary bypass of Adare so that the people who have nothing to do with the golf will still be able to get from one side of Adare to the other for the week that it's on.

    People concerned about "how we'll look" should a. ditch the inferiority complex, and b. have a look at the kind of roads that serve other top golf clubs. Even Augusta National in the car-loving USA is served by an undivided expressway and a single carriageway. St Andrews is a reached via a long, winding single carriageway road. You have to go to someplace like Dubai to find motorways serving golf clubs, but if we're taking lessons on planning from a country that built the world's tallest building without putting a sewage system under it there's no hope for us...



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,983 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Pete, you are getting very carried away, this temporary version will not be a disaster at all. It will be way better than nothing. I’ve seen them do this type of thing in Spain and Poland a lot: one piece or side of a motorway is opened early, while they continue building the rest. Then there’s a full opening a few years later.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    West bound traffic will still have to negotiate the roundabout whether they're going to the golf, going into the village or bypassing the village. This means that tailbacks will continue to occur onto the M20 until the whole thing is finished (long after the golf is over). It's brainless not starting at the M20 tie in, allowing traffic heading west of the village to continue seamlessly without having to slow down / stop.



  • Registered Users Posts: 591 ✭✭✭lordleitrim


    I'd love to hear the TII's/planners/designers rationale or justification for leaving this very short piece of interim road/roundabout between the existing and new stretches of motorway as part of the initial 7km works. Is it a funding issue or a timing constraint issue or something else?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,783 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    No idea where you are getting your some lad in Kerry from. All the traffic coming from east of Adare will first go from motorway to single carriageway, then use at least one roundabout, whether attending the RC or travelling to Adare or anywhere west of it. That might work without the additional huge number of people attending the RC but is very unlikely to with it. If there was two lanes all the way from Limerick to Adare, you could use one for buses only. RC should be a reason for not doing this, not a reason for doing it.

    There is no logic for a temporary bypass when the permanent one could be built instead. Not sure why you are talking about other golf courses, this road was planned and designed without golf in mind. The road is to be built regardless, "how we'll look" has absolutely nothing to do with it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The "lad in Kerry" would be the only one going to the golf who'd get any benefit from the bypass.

    This temporary road will be far better than the current situation. The alternative improvement of a truncated stretch of the final Type 1 DC is messy, risky and more expensive.

    When finished, new N21 will be a free flow tie-in to the existing DC with grade separated junctions and overbridges for side roads to the far side of Adare. If you want to open just that "motorway" around Adare first, you have to also build all those structures, and it's the structures that take the time. That means it will take longer before traffic can bypass Adare, which runs the risk of not being in place in time for the only thing that required an early bypass of Adare in the first place.

    To repeat: This single carriageway is not a replacement for the final alignment, and it's not permanent. This project will be built because, like N28 in Cork, it is required under Ireland's EU obligations to improve port access, and we have received funding support to build it.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    @KrisW1001 The bypass that is being built is between the Adare and Croagh junctions. Without continuing seemlessly from the current M20, you will have tailbacks at the same roundabout back to the M20 (as you have today). Build the extra few kms and you have a seemless connection, no tailbacks and traffic can get off at Croagh.

    The bridge over the Maigue has to be built anyway and that couldn't be built any faster than the junctions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Mrs Dempsey


    Spelling out a "do minimum" scenario is not necessarily a commitment to do the minimum. It is a possible floor, to construe it as a certain ceiling is catastrophizing - however, if that turns you on have fun out there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭Limerick74


    The tail backs don’t emanate from the lantern lodge roundabout. They stem from congestion through the entire village on the main street. The “do min” proposal would make a huge difference to traffic flow. If they can build more of it before the Ryder cup then even more of a bonus.

    Have some faith.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Limerick City & Council have published the PIN (Prior Information Notice) for the construction of the M21 Adare bypass (by means of an NEC4 Option C contract).

    * 10km of dual carriageway motorway between the M20 at Attyflin and the Croagh interchange

    The Croagh to Adare section, including both GSJs is required to be operational by June 2027 (including both GSJs).

    Publication of contract notice will be in April 2024

    Submission of tenders July 2024

    Contract award September 2024

    Completion date June 2027




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Great to see the timeline in black and white.

    So Adare to Attyflynn is included which makes perfect sense, but is outside the June 2027 timeline. How will that play out in terms of delivery and access at the Adare end ?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    I'd expect that all 10km will be delivered together, but the Adare to Croagh section takes priority if there are delays.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,783 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Common sense prevails.

    I'm sure the contractor will want to have the whole lot done by June 27, over 30 months should be more than enough time. TII hedging their bets a bit.

    Estimated value ex. VAT: €170m, €24m allocated for this year suggests they expected a bit done before the end of the year.

    Will be great to see it start.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,783 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Submission of tenders end of July and Estimated Date for Contract Award September is very tight. It will be interesting to see if the government, and the minister in particular, can get their arse in gear and sign off in that time.

    The other question is why not include as far as Rathkeale in this contract? The Croagh to Rathkeale section can be done during and after the Ryder Cup without negatively impacting on anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭Reuben1210


    Why is the Adre to Croagh section more important to have done first over the current end of the M21 to Adare section?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭pigtown


    There doesn't seem to be a mention of the N20/M21 GSJ. How is this new road to tie into the existing?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The current M20 will flow directly into the M21. The new M20 will be accessed via a GSJ.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    That hasn't gotten planning permission yet as its part of the M20 scheme. So it'll be built as part of the latter - though I'd imagine reasonable accomodations will be built into the M21 scheme to make it as easy as possible to construct.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭pigtown


    Ah ok. That makes more sense



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