M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [advance works to commence shortly]

Limerick74

It looks like a new scheme is on the way as Limerick County Council have started the procurement of consultants for the Foynes to Limerick Road Improvement Scheme.

annfield1978

Is it on E tenders yet?

RikkFlair

Here's an idea....why not build the long awaited Adare bypass and then have that veer north towards Foynes. In effect, half of this new road* has been built already as motorway that stops just short of Adare. Continue on this line more or less following the general route of the disused railway line (for which this may now spell the end, convert that to a greenway!).

All presuming of course that this project is a brand new road, rather than just straightening a few bends on the N69.

*Ok more like a quarter, but you get my drift

JupiterKid

I think the village of Askeaton was one of the first, if not the very first place to be bypassed by a National Secondary route back in the early 1980s for the lorry traffic to and from the Augunish Aluminia plant near Foynes.

Limerick74

It looks like a new scheme to me rather than just improvements on the N69. The eTenders notice details the consultant's work to include Feasibility, Route Selection, Design and statutory procedures.

Tragedy

RikkFlair wrote: »

Here's an idea....why not build the long awaited Adare bypass and then have that veer north towards Foynes. In effect, half of this new road* has been built already as motorway that stops just short of Adare. Continue on this line more or less following the general route of the disused railway line (for which this may now spell the end, convert that to a greenway!).

All presuming of course that this project is a brand new road, rather than just straightening a few bends on the N69.

*Ok more like a quarter, but you get my drift

M20/N21 to Adare is barely shorter than any additional road that would have to be built to link Foynes in to the N21, and the finished road would be significantly longer than using the N69 - so what would be the point? No cost savings (CPOs are still expensive), results in a longer journey, and sections of the N69 still need an upgrade for safety?

road_high

Sections of that road are excellent and overall it's not too bad with long wide sections. Cannot figure out how this could be a priority (for funds) over Adare bypass, I sincerely hope it isn't either.

RikkFlair

Tragedy wrote: »

M20/N21 to Adare is barely shorter than any additional road that would have to be built to link Foynes in to the N21, and the finished road would be significantly longer than using the N69 - so what would be the point? No cost savings (CPOs are still expensive), results in a longer journey, and sections of the N69 still need an upgrade for safety?

The point is that it kills 2 birds with the one stone, Adare bypass is badly needed and has been for decades. The idea of building a new road just a few miles north of Adare, and not having that in some way incorporate a bypass is madness to me.

And I wouldn't call a continuation of the motorway to include an Adare northern bypass towards Foynes (approx 25 miles) "significantly longer" than the current n69 or its replacement road (20 miles).

The idea of a link road to Foynes from an Adare bypass was mentioned many times by local figures a few years ago, before they changed to a southern bypass and back again, thats where my thinking is coming from. I'd love a brand new N69 AND an Adare bypass, but both are not feasible for the near future.

Cookiemunster

road_high wrote: »

Sections of that road are excellent and overall it's not too bad with long wide sections. Cannot figure out how this could be a priority (for funds) over Adare bypass, I sincerely hope it isn't either.

AFAIK the money would come from the TEN-T fund, which is an EU fund for strategic transport links. They hope to tap this fund to help develop the port and its infrastructure, which includes the N69.
The N69 isn't being prioritized for funding over the Adare bypass, simply the Adare bypass wouldn't qualify for TEN-T funding.

Tragedy

road_high wrote: »

Sections of that road are excellent and overall it's not too bad with long wide sections. Cannot figure out how this could be a priority (for funds) over Adare bypass, I sincerely hope it isn't either.

I like the N69 and in general it's a good road, it has some pretty nasty sections though, that I've seen plenty of accidents on (including two overturned cars somehow).

The Ferry Bridge and the next junction/corner to the West in particular spring to mind.

RikkFlair wrote: »

The point is that it kills 2 birds with the one stone, Adare bypass is badly needed and has been for decades. The idea of building a new road just a few miles north of Adare, and not having that in some way incorporate a bypass is madness to me.

It doesn't kill two birds with one stone. It kills one bird with one stone, then attemps to kill another bird with a different stone that spectacularly misses the mark.

And I wouldn't call a continuation of the motorway to include an Adare northern bypass towards Foynes (approx 25 miles) "significantly longer" than the current n69 or its replacement road (20 miles).

End of M20 to Rathkeale: 14km
Straight road from Rathkeale to Askeaton: 8.3km

M7>Foynes via N69: 32km
M7>Foynes via M20/R518: 48km


So your grand idea, is to have a route 50% longer that no-one will use?

Ok so.

Protip: The N69 is a road improvement scheme, not a road replacement scheme.

Zoney

RikkFlair wrote: »

The point is that it kills 2 birds with the one stone, Adare bypass is badly needed and has been for decades. The idea of building a new road just a few miles north of Adare, and not having that in some way incorporate a bypass is madness to me.

It wouldn't really save, you'd have to seriously upgrade the M20 in future then when the route to Cork is brought into the modern era. Traffic from N21, N69 and M20 southwards?

And having to upgrade junctions is not as good as having a seperate route to the N7/ring road.

Limerick74

Tragedy wrote: »

I like the N69 and in general it's a good road, it has some pretty nasty sections though, that I've seen plenty of accidents on (including two overturned cars somehow).

The Ferry Bridge and the next junction/corner to the West in particular spring to mind.


It doesn't kill two birds with one stone. It kills one bird with one stone, then attemps to kill another bird with a different stone that spectacularly misses the mark.


End of M20 to Rathkeale: 14km
Straight road from Rathkeale to Askeaton: 8.3km

M7>Foynes via N69: 32km
M7>Foynes via M20/R518: 48km


So your grand idea, is to have a route 50% longer that no-one will use?

Ok so.

Protip: The N69 is a road improvement scheme, not a road replacement scheme.

I agree that any route via the N21/M20 will be longer than following the N69 but using some basic measurements I have calculated the following lengths. Best to compare options with a common start and end point, hence Foynes and M7 Junction 1 (Rossbrien Interchange) as majority of trucks from Foynes would be heading towards (M20 South, N24 and M7 East rather than N18 west). Any new route from N69 to N21 would take a more direct route (SE) than the R518 which goes North / South.

A) Foynes to M7 J1 via N69 and N18 = 36km (32.5km new build)
Foynes to M7 J1 via new road and N21/M20 = 43km (32.3km new build)

Not a huge difference in journey time with advantage of 10km of 120kph M20. Also trucks heading south via the N20 would have an advantage with option B. And M7 J1 (Rossbrien Interchange) is a free flow interchange with plenty of spare capacity as opposed to dumbbell junction at N18 Junction 2 where option A would dock, close to the entrance to tunnel (i.e. Dunkettle). Also picking up N21 traffic and improving their journey times would improve any cost benefit analysis.

It will be interesting to see what they decide on.

RikkFlair

Tragedy wrote: »

End of M20 to Rathkeale: 14km
Straight road from Rathkeale to Askeaton: 8.3km

M7>Foynes via N69: 32km
M7>Foynes via M20/R518: 48km


So your grand idea, is to have a route 50% longer that no-one will use?

Ok so.

I can see where you're getting 48km from, I originally said the new road could follow the rail line - disregard that, forgot the rail line curves so much towards Rathkeale.

I'm talking about a more or less straight route from north of adare towards Foynes, which is more like 40km in total from Limerick. The adare bypass would continue on for another mile or 2 til it joins the existing N21 which was the original plan.

Tragedy wrote: »

Protip: The N69 is a road improvement scheme, not a road replacement scheme.

That hasn't been determined yet, all the press releases on this I'm seeing the words "proposed new road" being used.

pigtown

According o today's Limerick Leader the NRA have given permission for a new road to Foynes. They have now got to decide what form it will take and the Port Company say they don't care what the route is as long as it's an improvement on the existing road.
Interestingly they also say that they are committed to reopening the rail line and are spending €150'000 on the preliminary planning stage which will be concluded next year.

Tragedy

RikkFlair wrote: »

I can see where you're getting 48km from, I originally said the new road could follow the rail line - disregard that, forgot the rail line curves so much towards Rathkeale.

Following the rail line results in a route approx 43-44km long, with an 18km section linking a new N20 to Foynes.

I'm talking about a more or less straight route from north of adare towards Foynes, which is more like 40km in total from Limerick. The adare bypass would continue on for another mile or 2 til it joins the existing N21 which was the original plan.

A straight route from Adare to Foynes runs through three areas where the altitude goes from ~6-10m to ~40-50m high. It also has no existing roads and would cost huge amounts in
a)CPOs
b)Ancilliary roads to link newly split farms
c)New roads to tie into existing R roads

Fair enough if one is building a new motorway with a 40k AADT, but for a road that even if Foynes exploded, would still be in the single digits(000s)?

Your proposed route is ~22km. The entire N69 to Foynes is 32km. I'm afraid that it still isn't making a whole lot of sense to build it. If the N69 didn't exist, it most certainly would (and would be the preferred option I'm sure), but one must also remember that the N69 and the N20 are heavily used by commuters, and putting even more traffic on the N20 to get into Limerick ... won't be pretty.

cmonlad

Any word on whether the consultants have been appointed yet?

Zoney

RikkFlair wrote: »

I'm talking about a more or less straight route from north of adare towards Foynes, which is more like 40km in total from Limerick. The adare bypass would continue on for another mile or 2 til it joins the existing N21 which was the original plan.

I'd say it'd make more sense to follow the original N69 (roughly) to outside Mungret, and then put a new link in south to the link road for M20 J3 (Raheen) - big trumpet interchange with lots of spare capacity. Good way to distribute traffic that's Limerick-bound rather than Cork/N18/M7 bound. Traffic can come off on existing N69, R526/Local (for Raheen Ind Estate) or M20.

The house opposite the link for M20 from R526 was for sale last year - original owner (who sold in boom time for over a million) bought it back for very very little. Pity NRA or local council didn't do forward planning - that roundabout is perfectly sited for a fourth arm giving a new link to N69.

Link of area I'm talking about (R526/link roundabout in centre)

EDIT: Maybe I should email someone with this idea?

pigtown

Sounds doable, but how will it solve the problem of the N69?

annfield1978

cmonlad wrote: »

Any word on whether the consultants have been appointed yet?

Interviews were over a week ago, no word yet

annfield1978

Roughan O'Donovan/ AECOM appointed

so
Arup - Galway City Bypass
RPS - N28 Ringaskiddy
Atkins - Motorway Maintenance Contract
Halcrow Barry - N11
ROD/ AECOM Foynes to Limerick
Jacobs - ?
Mott Mc Donald - N25 New Ross Bypass

pie nicely shared out............

cupthehand1

Site updated.......

"Limerick City & County Council has commenced the planning and design of the Foynes to Limerick Road Improvement Scheme. The scheme will provide a high quality road connection between the port of Foynes and Limerick, leading to reduced journey times, improved journey time reliability and improved safety between Foynes and Limerick for all road users......"

http://www.foyneslimerick.ie/

marno21

Hopefully as part of this the N(M?)69/N18 interchange is properly built

Cookiemunster

marno21 wrote: »

Hopefully as part of this the N(M?)69/N18 interchange is properly built

Looking at the study area, this is as likely to join the M20 as it is to join the N18. If it does join the N18 it will be at the current J2 on the Dock Road as there isn't room to build another junction.

Limerick74

Further updates on the project web site today with Public Consultation for the Route Corridor Options on Tuesday 10th March in South Court Hotel and Wednesday 11th March in Foynes Flying Boat Museum.

Chris_5339762

Wonder if this could be used as a sneaky way to get an Adare bypass built with a slight detour for Foynes traffic?

Vanquished

Oh without a doubt I'd say. They would be foolish not to take advantage of such a lifeline especially after the dogs dinner they made of the previous bypass attempt with that laughable southern route!

pajoguy

Vanquished wrote: »

Oh without a doubt I'd say. They would be foolish not to take advantage of such a lifeline especially after the dogs dinner they made of the previous bypass attempt with that laughable southern route!

Have to say the southern route was a strange one on its own but made some sense once it was tied in with M20 project.

I would agree a northern bypass of Adare with a spur northwesterly towards the askeaton bypass would eliminate a lot of the sections with poor alignment. Maybe an online upgrade of askeaton bypass and the rest of the N69 to foynes?

Vanquished

pajoguy wrote: »

Have to say the southern route was a strange one on its own but made some sense once it was tied in with M20 project.

I don't think it made any sense whatsoever! A circuitous, meandering route linked to the proposed M20 via a crap stacked roundabout interchange was a dreadfully ill-conceived scheme. It was only chosen because it was the cheapest and easiest option. It was justifiably thrown out by An Bord Pleanala.

Limerick74

Vanquished wrote: »

I don't think it made any sense whatsoever! A circuitous, meandering route linked to the proposed M20 via a crap stacked roundabout interchange was a dreadfully ill-conceived scheme. It was only chosen because it was the cheapest and easiest option. It was justifiably thrown out by An Bord Pleanala.

I think it only got rejected because the M20 was pulled just before the Board was to make a decision.

Chris_5339762

Yeah, it never got to ABP stage. The M20 scheme was great looking except for the Adare part.

Pete_Cavan

pajoguy wrote: »

I would agree a northern bypass of Adare with a spur northwesterly towards the askeaton bypass would eliminate a lot of the sections with poor alignment. Maybe an online upgrade of askeaton bypass and the rest of the N69 to foynes?

I would imagine that this is what will be done. Given the size of the study area, it is very likely that the N21 and N69 will be combined for a good stretch.

What type of road do we think it will be. WS2 with LILO junctions would probably suffice?

Chris_5339762

WS2 isn't being built anymore. At a guess I'd expect 2+2 with a couple of compact GSJs and a handful of roundabouts.

IF they do Adare as well, I'd expect HQDC N21 (calling it M21 is a pipe dream) passing Adare with a GSJ (roundabout on top) and 2+2 going from there to Foynes.

pajoguy

Is it possible that the sod will be turned on this before the M20 project? The up coming pre election budget will shed light on this I suppose.

Cookiemunster

pajoguy wrote: »

Is it possible that the sod will be turned on this before the M20 project? The up coming pre election budget will shed light on this I suppose.

It's not possible, it's guaranteed. The main funding for this is coming from the EU, plus it's relatively cheap. The M20 also has to go back to the planning stage.

marno21

If the Adare bypass is being fed directly from the M20 making it M21 would make sense as only motorway traffic would be able to enter it anyway, and non-motorway traffic coming from the Kerry side would have to exit the road before Adare anyway as they wouldn't be allowed on the M20.

Building an Adare bypass before the M20 will be a mess as there will likely be a reconfiguring of junctions needed when the M20 is built beyond Junction 5

Limerick74

I guess we will know a lot more this afternoon when the route options are shown in the South Court Hotel and hopefully on the project website foyneslimerick.ie

RikkFlair

Here are the options.

Pete_Cavan

Route Corridor Option 4 is the obvious choice, although it would make more sense if points N was further west, beyond point K.

marno21

What road type is this being planned as? Hope the N21 Adare bypass segment is M or at least HQDC as it leads directly to a motorway.

Option 4 does seem to make the most sense although I would make the link from Foynes to the N21 bypass a bit more direct

pajoguy

marno21 wrote: »

What road type is this being planned as? Hope the N21 Adare bypass segment is M or at least HQDC as it leads directly to a motorway.

Option 4 does seem to make the most sense although I would make the link from Foynes to the N21 bypass a bit more direct

I had a chat with one of the consultants and he was saying it would possibly be HQDC or Motorway to west of Adare but indicated it might be to a lesser standard towards Foynes.

The point was very much emphasised that this will be a road to get traffic from foynes to the M20 therefore minimum number of junctions. They expect all local traffic to use the old road.

Route 4 or 2 would appear to my untrained eye to be the most logical but it comes down to much more than logic.

Route to be decided by the end of year. Construction expected to start in 2020.

Limerick74

I heard there was up to 200 people at the consultation last night in Limerick with similar numbers expected today in Foynes.

what_traffic

pajoguy wrote: »

I had a chat with one of the consultants and he was saying it would possibly be HQDC or Motorway to west of Adare but indicated it might be to a lesser standard towards Foynes.

The point was very much emphasised that this will be a road to get traffic from foynes to the M20 therefore minimum number of junctions. They expect all local traffic to use the old road.

Route 4 or 2 would appear to my untrained eye to be the most logical but it comes down to much more than logic.

Route to be decided by the end of year. Construction expected to start in 2020.

Is this a typo? Would have thought any of the routes proposed could be expected to be finished by 2020?

Middle Man

The blue route (option 2) is a no brainer to me - two roads done for the price of one. A motorway to Rathkeale with a DT2 tie in for N21 and ST1 for N69 spur to Foynes would surely be cheaper than eventual separate parallel ST1 and DT2 roads for N69 and N21 respectively. With duplicatation minimised, it would surely have the least impact on the environment too.

Cookiemunster

what_traffic wrote: »

Is this a typo? Would have thought any of the routes proposed could be expected to be finished by 2020?

Nope. The route has to be chosen, then the EIS and detailed design have to be done, then scheme is sent to ABP and then it will have to go to tender. Each of these stages could take a year.

what_traffic

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Nope. The route has to be chosen, then the EIS and detailed design have to be done, then scheme is sent to ABP and then it will have to go to tender. Each of these stages could take a year.

Thanks. I thought the process would have been quicker for this type of project. Very little SAC in the Study Area + it is a Tier 1 port at the end of the road.

Treepole

Option 2 is the councils (or whoever is making the decision's) preferred option.

Limerick74

Huge turnout in Foynes tonight with up to 500 people in attendance by one estimate.

Hachiko

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Wonder if this could be used as a sneaky way to get an Adare bypass built with a slight detour for Foynes traffic?

Roads in Kerry are absolutely brutal, was home last year. absurd that they have become almost unusable. Many third world countries would have better main roads.

antoobrien

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Wonder if this could be used as a sneaky way to get an Adare bypass built with a slight detour for Foynes traffic?

Given the routes options 2/3 look like they are best for the region, Adare and Rathkeale bypassed, improved access to North Kerry & simplify the M20 alignment.

I'd be interested in hearing what are the local impacts of the routes.

quizzical

What about option 4 is there a high possibility that this one could go ahead?

moleyv

antoobrien wrote:

Given the routes options 2/3 look like they are best for the region, Adare and Rathkeale bypassed, improved access to North Kerry & simplify the M20 alignment.

Rathkeake is already bypassed a long time.