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M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [Adare bypass under construction; remainder pending]

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The length of the project is pretty much irrelevant to the timescale. The 12km M28 is also scheduled to take 3 years.

    Structures take time to build and they are what generally determine the timeline. In this case the officials have said that it's a very tight schedule to get this done on time. They know how long the structures will take to build and that's why they've been saying it will be tight.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,313 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The length of the project will generally determine the number of structures involved so certainly is relevant. The structures in this case aren't overly complex. The Maigue bridge is mid-size and the enabling works mean it is fairly accessible from the beginning.

    The M28 will involve large scale works and connections with very heavily trafficked roads which will require delicate phasing and traffic management. It is also 75% longer than the M21 project. It being scheduled to take 3 years would suggest that 2.5 years for the M21 isn't onerous.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,607 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    This is a pretty simple offline motorway on greenfields on fairly flat land. There are some structures, the Maigue bridge and the GSJs, but there is nothing to suggest it can't be done in the 32 month timeframe involved.

    The Macroom bypass section of the N22 project had tarmac almost down on its route after 2.5 years and looking at the videos it was a complex build with 2 river bridges, several overbridges and complex earthworks. And the site was shut due to Covid-19 lockdowns.

    I'd be astonished if this wasn't open months ahead of the Ryder Cup.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,313 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    My prediction is that in early 2026 the project is well ahead of schedule and on course for late 2026 completion (possibly runs into 2027 if there are some unexpected difficulties along the way). The seamless tie-in with the existing motorway section of the N21 then gets included in the contract (not doing so would seriously undermine the road and cause issues for the Ryder Cup). Finishing the motorway to Rathkeale is likely too big to be included in the current contract and would have to be tendered separately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 874 ✭✭✭MICKEYG


    "Seamless tie in with the existing motorway section of the N21 gets included...."

    Surely it is already included. The bypass cannot be considered complete if there is a roundabout type tie in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    As far as I can tell from the tender notice, the area inside the pink outline is what is being built. That's a mainline length of about 7 km (Chainage +55k to +62k), and includes the two structures named in the tender.


    The Green line is the existing N21 dual carriageway.

    The Red line is the existing N21 single carriageway, 3.5 km. Just over half of this length is to be widened online.

    The blue box is this road bridge, over the existing N21 single carriageway:

    I think this is the reason why the tie-in work was left out of this project: first, the road is in a cutting here, so widening is more disruptive, and second, the bridge also needs to be widened to accommodate a Type 1 DC motorway. Works here could make traffic delays worse, and if the goal is to not grind the Adare road to a halt, then it makes sense to wait.

    However, once all the golf circus is gone, it wouldn’t be a problem to get going on at least some of this work.




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Hopefully you are proven right.

    It's not. The contract runs from the Adare Junction to the Croagh Junction only.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,102 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Yes and no! The European TEN-T funding requires good roads to ports, so the N69 qualified because of Foynes. The councils and the TII did a very un-Irish bit of common sense thinking and lumped the Adare bypass in by changing the way that Foynes is accessed to the N21.

    The Ryder Cup changed the sequencing of the project unfortunately.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,607 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Drove past the site on the Limerick side recently and there’s Sorensen/JCL signage up everywhere, lots of lads and plant on site. I’ve no doubt they’ll hit the ground running in the New Year. Some of the earthworks for the Adare Link Road at the N21 interface are done and an access route to the mainline is open.

    Always nice to see boots on the ground after following a scheme from the beginning as we have here. Hopefully a nice easy ride for the contractors now and the trip through Adare becomes optional and pleasant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,313 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The works to the bridge could be done early, leaving an easy tie-in later. That would remove the risk relating to that.

    The current plan of having everyone (both those entering Adare for the Ryder Cup and those wanting to bypass the town) first merge into a single land and then use a roundabout is going to cause traffic delays.

    It is madness to create that situation unnecessarily, it may be forced upon them later but baking it in now is crazy. It is accepting as a given that that should be a fallback situation. If, as I suspect, the works progress quickly and they are on track for completion well before the RC, hopefully sense will prevail and they connect the two motorways.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    A 2 km single-carriageway link could be done easily from the Adare junction to the point where the new scheme leaves the existing road - basically, just built half the mainline eastward until it meets the existing N21. With that present, traffic for Adare Manor can be allowed to leave freely, but not join freely. Basically, the link would prioritise non-village traffic.

    The purpose of doing this work early is not to facilitate visitors to the Ryder Cup; it’s to prevent the presence of the Ryder Cup circus making it impossible for people at all points west of Adare to travel to and from Limerick for a week and a bit. The Garda traffic controls around this event will most likely mean that nearly all ticketholders will be coming by bus/coach - that’s not a huge strain on road capacity. But: private cars are also likely to be barred from the village except for residents, and it’s that restriction, plus the parking for those coaches, that would create havoc if there was no way around Adare.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,607 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    On your first point, that could certainly be done. But with 2.5 years to go, surely the full motorway grade road could be built. It’s a flat section of route, and just the L1424 bridge and the over bridge on the existing N21 to be done structures wise.

    I can foresee a situation in 2027 when instead of the general public celebrating the bypassing of Adare the focus instead will be on all the headscratching as to why two motorways are separated by 2km of single carriageway when there’s full planning permission in place to bridge that 2km gap.

    I can see the blame being put on Eamon Ryan for one final time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    My feeling is that the rest of this project will be started before 2027, so that once the golf thing is over, the winning contractor on this part (very likely to be the on-site contractor) will just continue eastward toward Limerick. As it is, the new N69 Foynes road could certainly be built without inconveniencing anyone who wants to go see little white balls.

    N69 is a very different kind of built to M21, though, with a lot of earthworks needed and no grade-separated junctions, which is why I think there may be two tenders put out: the first to build the Type2 DC N69, and the second to finish the remaining bits of M21 (which is about 5 km at the western end of what’s being done now, and the 3.5 km to the east).

    I think the omission of this eastern section is from an abundance of caution - if there were to be an unforeseen delay during these works, then the road capacity along N21 would end up worse than in the do-nothing scenario. By confining the construction to greenfield sections, the worst outcome for a cock-up is that the road access to Adare is exactly the same as it is today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 905 ✭✭✭lordleitrim


    If I understand correctly, every single vehicle coming off the M7 for the newly created M21 bypass of Adare will be greeted by a roundabout before they can either join the bypass or exit for Adare village? While I know this is a temporary measure prior to the full M21 tie in, isn't it likely we'll see several kms tailbacks queuing at the roundabout on particularly busy periods (Friday evenings etc) for the duration of this more than a year measure? It really does take the gloss off the development in the short term.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Trust me, you're not the first person to bring this up. Don't worry though, I've been assured (by other posters on here) that there will be no issues as that traffic won't have to enter the town……



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The exact amount of road to be built, and how it will temporarily tie in to the existing N21, is not known. The tender documents only say “approximately 7 km of motorway”, it does not mention tie-ins with existing roads and there were no specific drawings provided. The entire motorway has planning permission, so what gets built is just a matter of agreeing time and costs with the contractor. It may be possible to provide a tie-in with the existing N21 for traffic that is not going to or from Adare itself.

    Most of the delays in Adare are caused by traffic for points west of Adare that is being forced through the village right now - once all of that through-traffic can divert onto the motorway (which can take far more traffic than the existing road can feed it) things will be a lot smoother than at present.

    As for the “gloss”… who cares? The current road is actually quite scenic, but I don’t think anyone will miss having to take it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 905 ✭✭✭lordleitrim


    I was referring to the gloss in terms of benefit of journey time saved for the next few years before the full M21/N69 project is completed...I'd imagine a lot of people travelling the N21 care about that....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78 ✭✭Pale Red


    Definitely time saved going east. If you are going further west than NCW, then much of the gains will be eaten into by a longer queue in NCW.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    It is known. Unless the tie in with the M20 is built the road will be accessed by the new junctions with the current N21 at Adare and Croagh.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Is that from a source, or are you talking about the most likely case? Obviously the contractors know, but I meant the public, like us. I’m not arguing with you, by the way, as I also think that is the most likely case, but the published request for tenders was unusually ambiguous about how much of the mainline is to be built. The wording doesn’t rule out a temporary, non dual-carriageway, link. It’s unlikely, though, and I do think that the planned junction will be fine westbound. Eastbound, it could back up a lot, but that’s going to happen until the final eastern motorway stretch is done.

    @lordleitrim - I don’t think anyone will complain. Consider this:

    The current route from existing N21 on the intended Adare junction to existing N21 on the intended Croagh junction is 9 km long, and Google reports this as having a travel time of 9 minutes… if you’re driving at 4:00am. Choose 18:00 on a Friday, and it says it could be up to 22 minutes. That shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.

    The new way to get between those points will be 7 km long, with an estimated travel time of around 4 minutes under best conditions, or maybe 6 minutes if it gets really busy.

    Meanwhile, travel times along the old N21 will drop towards that 9 minute minimum value, as far less traffic will be using the route.

    2 km shorter, and up to three times faster should be enough while the rest of the project is done.

    If your argument is that they should have just started at M20 and done the on-line M21 build too, then I do tend to agree with you, but that golf tournament complicates the timing. Any major delay on that online section could cause the whole N21 corridor to jam solid during that week or two - and that is too much of a risk. It’s not the big event that causes the issues, but the street closures that will need to be made within Adare to prevent some of the spectators ignoring the requests of the Gardaí and organisers and trying to drive their cars right up as close to the first tee as they can.

    I’m fairly confident that the rest of this project will be lined up for construction to start as soon as the circus has folded up and fecked off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,313 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I don't see how any "temporary, non dual-carriageway, link" could possibly work. As the new motorway is north of the existing N21, westbound traffic would have to cross the eastbound carriageway to access it. That isn't going to be possible without sticking another roundabout (which doesn't have planning permission) there.

    Basically any temporary measure is not realistic unless it complies with the existing planning permission. And even if a Part 8 or something was rushed through to facilitate some temporary measure, it would still be at least as much work and hassle as building the planned tie-in.

    Unless something drastic happens, I expect earthworks to be well ahead of schedule by end of 2025. The lads doing the work have been as good as on site for months and will be ready to get stuck in in January. The Maigue bridge structure will also be well underway by end of 2025. The contractor will be saying "pay us to build the tie-in east of Adare and we'll have all done by original completion date". Hopefully we'll have a sensible Minister to make the call.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    N22 had a temporary roundabout that wasn't in the planning permission.

    I'm not saying it's likely, only that it's not ruled out, and it would be built by building the bed of the mainline up to the point where it meets N21, then laying a temporary 2-lane surface on that.. basically it's a small addition to preparatory works that need to be done anyway. Alternatively, they just build the whole new mainline up to the point where it meets N21, and have a temporary ramp. If you look at the scheme map, there's an obvious place for it to connect. But again, I didn't say it's likely, only possible if needed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭awaywithyou


    just looking at google maps there and the aerial photos are updated.. outline or route of the new road can be clearly seen… looks like some bit of work from rathkeale to what i presume is the junction for askeaton has been done as well..

    Post edited by awaywithyou on


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,607 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Impressive progress being made on the two railway bridges on the Adare bypass section of this at 6:50 and 7:50



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Updated M21 route flyover by Dronehawk, starting outside Rathkeale and ending at Gorteen.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭awaywithyou


    the people who run Clonshire Equestrian Centre who upto now have had a peaceful life living in off the main road wont know what hit them as they will have the bypass and the train passing right outside their door… no wonder they were seeking a judicial review.. what concessions did they if any get to drop the review??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭KrisW1001




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭awaywithyou


    yes maybe.. i assume if had gone ahead with a judicial review it would have held up the project???



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 cameltoe86


    Looking at the previous comments Im probably out of my depth here but how do these things usually go as of now? Have been hearing the work is going to begin in January, what kind of work comes first exactly? Diggers on the ground and away they go? Or does more surveying or non-excavation work need to be done first? Is there anymore red tape or can they crack on? Can see from the videos there has been some work done already, in that the route has been drawn/mapped out. Is there a rough timeline of the various things done when building a road? (I know next to nothing about the construction/road building industry so apologies if this questions are basic (or already answered elsewhere). Just curious as to how they usually go about it



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Diggers have actually been on the ground for quite a while now as part of the preparatory works. Archeological digs, services diversions, demolition of buildings, fencing of the route etc. There is no more red tape so yes they can indeed crack on (on the Adare to Croagh section).

    Sorensen, who won the contract along with Sisk, are doing those works, so it will be a seamless transition into actual construction.

    There's no available to the public timeline for the various stages, but you would expect the large structures like the Maigue River bridge and the junctions to begin construction almost immediately.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 671 ✭✭✭eusap


    What is the train line for?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,316 ✭✭✭source


    Reinstatement of the Limerick to Foynes líne.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭Mrs Dempsey




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,313 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    We aren't really sure, they just skipped over most of the steps in the approval process.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78 ✭✭Pale Red


    I presume that the Adare bypass will be N21 initially to allow all traffic to avoid Adare during RC. Will it stay as N21 until Patrickswell to Rathkeale is open?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,812 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    They’ll likely be much safer in fact- everything is grade separated and fenced in both the motorway and railway line and woth noise mitigation measures will hardly notice it most likely. Also the local roads and old N21 will be much safer for local traffic like them once the bulk of the traffic is removed. It’s not likely they’re going to have negotiate motorway traffic at their front door. Any farms I’ve seen with motorways adjacent function perfectly fine once construction is completed and I’ve been on many like that



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,607 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The first sign of movement on the Adare Bypass. A section of the L8025 Graigue is to be closed for 20 months from March to December 2026.

    https://www.limerick.ie/council/newsroom/road-notices/temporary-closure-of-roads-l8025-graigue-co-limerick



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    I took a drive down a few local roads in the area last friday to see if any works were progressing. The enabling work must be nearly complete. A few items of plant near the woodlands roundabout end and looked like archaeological work ongoing on the limerick side of the L-1424 Clounanna Rd.

    Any sign of the contract being signed? Nothing on limerick socials anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    https://www.sorensen.ie/news/foynes-to-limerick-road-contract-no-1-project-update/

    A short video on Sorensons website on the enabling works



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    No idea why they keep calling this "enabling works" when the scheme is clearly under construction now. Same shenanigans with M28.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    It's a nice find but I'd say that video is probably 6 months old. There's no sign of the over bridge works over the railway which is well progressed at this stage.

    And I'll also point out that nowhere do Sorensen refer to enabling works. Their site says Contract No. 1, which is the first phase of the Adare bypass



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,607 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21



    Nice footage of the over bridge where the M21 will cross the Foynes railway at 1:40.

    Also nice to see clearance works proceeding along the online section at Monearla at 2:10



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    I'd be surprised if we don't get an actual M21 video from him soon so. He usually does both.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Limerick91


    Looking forward to seeing this project progress as it is on my commute which hopefully will be easier by 2027



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 905 ✭✭✭lordleitrim


    It'll be interesting to see once opened as far as Rathkeale, how impactful it will be on creating added tailback congestion approaching Newcastle West. Bypasses and improved sections are known to create added tailbacks to the next non bypassed town on the route as motorists arrive far more quickly and simultaneously from the improved stretch. Assuming the NCW bypass won't happen for a good while after the M21 is completed...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 874 ✭✭✭MICKEYG


    Hi, someone mentioned "by 2027". Does this mean this will be completed in 2026?

    Re Newcastle West. You will have the same volume of traffic going through there as today so I don't see any improvement or disimprovement.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    No. It means August 2027 as the Ryder Cup is in September.

    As to the other point, it may be the same volume of traffic but it will all arrive at Newcastle West much more quickly than it would if it was being slowed down in Adare, therefore causing the tailback there instead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78 ✭✭Pale Red


    The tailback volume for NCW might reduce as people going to the north side of Tralee or Listowel might go via Foynes. NCW destined traffic might go via Ardagh.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 905 ✭✭✭lordleitrim


    I think most Listowel and northern parts of Kerry from Ballyheigue, Ballyduff, Ballybunion, Tarbert etc all currently use the N69 anyway if heading to Limerick and beyond. It'll be interesting to see what travel time to Tralee ultimately will be like via dual carriageway to Foynes or continuing on via Abbeyfeale and which is quicker.



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