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M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [Adare bypass under construction; remainder pending]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭awaywithyou


    Cant believe they levelled a ringfort for the road… they will have no luck for that… how were they even allowed..?? i know a farmer who was up in court for interfering with a ringfort.. lost his farm payments over it and had to sell his cattle to pay the legal costs..



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    There's a difference between doing something with permission and without permission.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    The ring fort also doesnt seem to show up on any maps I have looked at so may not have been discovered until the route was finalised. Would it have been discovered using sonar tech before excavations or during the trial excavations that traverse the route? It is located at the croagh interchange that councillors pushed for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭nearlybreak




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭awaywithyou


    I thought ringforts were protected.. as in permission or no permission didn't matter.. you couldn't go near them ..



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    There are over 45,000 ringforts in Ireland. They are literally everywhere. They are not of national archaeological significance so once recorded properly that can be removed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 483 ✭✭Limerick74


    Some rigforts or enclosures are more significant than others. They will typically try to avoid impacting them but sometimes unavoidable or you discover them at the current stage and have to study them and then excavate or preserve them. All of this work is under licence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    There is also the somewhat ropey, yet completely true argument that you wouldn't have known about the ringfort all all, much less get the chance to excavate it, without the M21 project.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Not ropey at all. Every major construction project now includes an archaeological survey phase for this exact reason. Archaeologists get the opportunity to investigate the area, but unless something of huge historical significance is discovered, the project will then proceed once they've finished.

    This is now standard practice in European construction projects, but spare a thought for the team managing the expansion of Line C of the Rome Metro: the route runs right under the heart of Imperial Rome, and so it was only a matter of time before they hit something significant. But construction of the line continued after extensive archaeological investigations, and the station, Porta Metronia, should open later this month - the praetorian guard barracks that was uncovered in construction has been incorporated into a museum exhibit in the station. (Linea C has been plagued with delays and cost overrun, and it's pretty much all down to this kind of thing: the tunnels are deeper than the ground level at any period where humans lived in Rome, but the stations need to get all the way to the surface, and that means digging down through a few thousand years of civilisation)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    From Chapter 14 (Archaeology, Architecture and Cultural Heritage) of the Foynes to Limerick Road EIAR:

    Of the 122 archaeological sites within the receiving environment, 28 are classed as ringforts (AH 2–4, 6, 8, 10–12, 15–16, 19, 22, 25–27, 29–30, 32–33, 37, 39, 52, 90, 96 and 119–122), and a further 35 as enclosures (AH 7, 9, 13, 20–21, 24, 31, 40–44, 46–49, 57–61, 62–66, 84, 92, 97, 99, 102, 104, 108,114 and 118). Ringforts and potential ringforts - often recorded as enclosures - are the most common archaeological sites recorded within the receiving environment and largely represent early medieval farmsteads and stock enclosures. Indeed, West Limerick has one of the highest ringfort densities in the country, at c. 1.52 per square kilometre (Stout 1997, 99). A crannóg, a partially or entirely artificial island used as a dwelling place, is also located within the receiving environment (AH 34) and may also date to this period. During the course of the present assessment a significant number of additional sites that are likely to date to the early medieval period were identified through aerial photographs, LiDAR analysis and geophysical surveys (detailed below). 

    In simple terms you couldn't build this road without coming into contact with numerous ringforts. Of the 60,000 ringforts that are believed to have existed in Ireland, over half remain. The practice in projects such as this is to identify, survey and then excavate, preserve or record as appropriate, the same as for other archeological remains.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,275 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    60,000? Incredible. If you assume a ring fort had at least 20 people living in it as families were large and multi-generational, that’s 1.2M people on the island in ancient times. But it can’t have been that much surely?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    They wouldn't all have been inhabitated at the same time. They are thought to have been in use for thousands of years.

    Post edited by Cookiemunster on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61 ✭✭Leatra


    That's assuming they were all maintained and inhabited at the same time. I think there's a good chance a lot of them were never permanent habitations but might've been livestock enclosures or served other (maybe seasonal?) uses.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭Paddico


    The fairies definitely caught up with that farmer. Sure Eddie Lenahan himself said it for years and theres the direct proof …



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    Great news. Considering Sorenson have the enabling works they should be able to hit the ground running.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,315 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Sisk also have a large civils team in the area as they are doing the Foynes rail reinstatement and have recently been awarded the contract to build 3 railway bridges by IÉ. No surprise they've won this contract.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    Have to say the project website is very disappointing. No news about preferred bidder or any works undertaken in the last 12 months. No photos or drone footage of route or enabling works carried out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 483 ✭✭Limerick74




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    And what project websites have previously provided any of that?

    If you want drone footage look up DroneHawk on YouTube.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    Im aware of dronehawks footage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 483 ✭✭Limerick74


    The contractor typically takes the lead with public communications during the construction phase. I would expect monthly newsletters on progress and upcoming works starting in 2025.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Dunkettles weekly newsletter during construction was fantastic and really detailed. They did their own drone work too. They also produced an app which I still use.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,612 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    It'll be interesting to see the plan now for the c. 3km between the Adare Interchange and the M20. It could be tendered separately and likely complete before the Ryder Cup as there are no significant structures on it. It'll be messy between the M20 and M21 if not complete in a timely manner.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 733 ✭✭✭tigerboon


    Also should be finished the large scale works in Killaloe in time



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭pajoguy




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,315 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I really don't see the timeline as being ambitious. It's a short enough section of motorway, favourable terraine and they've got a head start. Wouldn't be surprised if it was finished by the end of 2026.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Structures are what will take the time.

    There are 3 river bridges including the Maigue Bridge which is to be a 200m long three span bridge with a center span of 95m.

    Then there are two full grade separated junctions along with 9 over/underbridges.

    June 2027 is the required finish date according to the contract.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Agreed. The quality of recent road project websites and social media varies enormously. Dunkettle Interchange was excellent. N22 Macaroon Bypass and N25 New Ross Bypass were pretty good. M28 communications have been an absolute disaster from the outset and must bear a fair share of the responsibility for the delay in commencing the project. So far the M/N21 hasn't been much better. Fully appreciate the videos provided by Dronehawk and the likes of Sisk in the case of the Killaloe bypass and bridge, but in this day and age a proper communications strategy for major projects is an essential if the public are to be kept onboard and provided with accurate and up to date information. Otherwise it's wide open to twitter etc to post whatever crap the naysayers want to dream up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Thanks for posting this. Really informative to see the before and after views. So tough on the properties that were CPOd. Great to see it progressing.

    The more you look at that omission the less sense this makes. Originally I thought that it was because of complications or sequencing relating to the M20, but I don't believe that is the case. Did anybody find the reason for omitting it ?



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    I can't recall any project website giving anything more than milestone updates before construction started. As Limerick74 said, the contractor will start to give updates once they get on site. Most don't do anymore than monthly or quarterly newsletters.

    Dunkettle was very much the exception rather than the rule. It would be great if they were all like Dunkettle, but I wouldn't be holding my breath.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I'm going to make a wild guess that the simple solution was used here… build the quickest/most minimal they can here and lump the junction construction in with the M20. I guess it gives the M20 junction freedom to do what it wants when that gets done.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    There is no M20/M21 junction on this scheme. The current M20 motorway will flow seamlessly into the new M21.

    The first junction will be at Adare and is being built as part of this project.

    The new M20 project will upgrade the current J5 at Patrickswell to allow freeflow movements.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    I passed the site entrance just east of Croagh Village yesterday and there was a lot of plant in the area of the "Croagh Junction". Do we expect to see contract signed before Christmas?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The plant will be Sorensons for the enabling works. The plan is to have everything signed off by Christmas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭Pale Red




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    That’s a bit more than “glacial”. They’ve appointed a contractor, Sisk/Sorensen, so that contractor will now be highly motivated to complete the construction as soon as possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭Pale Red


    This thread is more than ten years old - hardly quick progress.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    That was announced in early November.

    This project was initiated when the country was still broke. The planning process has not gone any more slowly than any other major infrastructure project in that time.

    However the project was only cleared from Judicial Review in June 2023 (after 2 1/2 years with ABP) and will be under construction in early 2025. That is amazingly fast for this process.

    Plus Sorensen are already on site doing enabling works which, from DroneHawks videos, look to involve quite a lot of ground works and Sisk already have the three railway underpasses under construction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    This project was first proposed in 2017, and went to ABP in 2021. The 2011 “Adare Bypass” was canned due to lack of money to build the M20, upon which it depended: Adare was originally going to be bypassed to the south, with traffic for Limerick joining M20 at a junction near Croom.

    Both N21 and N20 have since been completely redesigned since those days, and the M21 has come out of that process is a completely different thing. Actually, I just looked back at the start of this thread and it’s ironic to see that as early as the third post, someone put forward pretty much the current plan as an alternative to what was being planned back then.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,612 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Sorry now but consultants were appointed to commence planning & design on this in early 2014 and it was submitted to ABP in December 2019.

    It got delayed for quite some time in 2017-19 due to revisions to the Foynes-Rathkeale section to dual it.

    The JRs on this were dropped in June 2023 and less than 18 months later the construction contracts were awarded. A remarkable pace of progress



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I stand corrected. I didn’t think the Foynes link was part of the pre-2017 plan at all.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The initial plan was Foynes to Limerick, so an N69 upgrade. It was then decided to kill two birds with one stone and upgrade the N21 along with building the new road to Foynes. So if anything the Adare bypass is the bit that wasn't part of the original plan.

    Anyways, here's the official announcement of the contract signing. Works to start in January, but the timeline is very tight for making September 2027 deadline.

    https://www.limerick.ie/council/newsroom/news/works-to-commence-in-january-after-tender-awarded-for-adare-bypass



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,697 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    This thread title is (and has been for ages) really wrong. The N21 and M21 begins after Patrickswell, close to Adare. Doesnt touch Limerick unless we are talking about County Limerick



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    No it's not wrong. The scheme is officially called Foynes to Limerick (including Adare Bypass).

    And Patrickswell is part of the Metropolitan District of Limerick. Therefore it's part of the City.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,315 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The deadline is that the road "is required to be fully operational by June 2027". I don't think it's tight at all, it's a short stretch and these lads will fly through it.

    Post edited by Pete_Cavan on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Structures can't be rushed. Two full GSJs and a 200m bridge over the Maigue are what will take the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,770 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    The Well is currently only 5 minutes drive from the edge of the unbroken built up city area and that probably won't even be true for much longer. This is definitely a motorway to the city.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,315 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    But there is plenty of time to build that. They have two and a half years, the M3 project involving the construction of a 50km motorway/dual carriageway, 11km of single carriageway, a further 24km of road widening/realignment, 6 GSJs and the Boyne bridge took three years.



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