Why do women do this

Faith

I find it hard to even read this thread because it touches such a raw nerve. Both my parents are obsessed with weight. Both told me I was fat from a very young age (I've never been fat, for the record. At my highest weight now, I'm just a bit plump). Looking back, I was a perfectly normal sized child, arguably thin from about 12 - 16, and after my junior cert was when I started to get chubby. But my parents would watch what I ate like hawks, and pass comments on anything they didn't approve of. I quickly developed a habit of eating in secret, and to this day, still smuggle food out of the kitchen when I'm in their house. I started dieting at about 10, I'd say.

But at the same time, my mum, like many others, equates food with love and is definitely responsible for my emotional eating habits. Anything good or bad that happened growing up was met with food - celebrating or comforting.

My mum will always remark about my weight when I see her - rarely negatively these days, thankfully. But when I started going out with my current boyfriend, 5 years ago, she told me I should lose weight or he wouldn't fancy me. From a young age, she'd buy me clothes two sizes too big. I have a brutal self-image now and I'm completely obsessed with weight and calories, and often catch myself while out with friends thinking "Why are they friends with me when they're all gorgeous and thin, and I'm an unattractive fatty". Sometimes I see myself in the mirror and for just a second I see myself objectively and it's almost like "Who the hell is that?!". My self-image and my actual appearance are so different from each other, and I really do blame my parents for a lot of that.

I've always vowed that, if I have children, I'll teach them about healthy eating and exercise and leave it at that. Whatever my own issues, I'll do my damndest not to pass them on.

Malari

I'm shocked so many parents seem to have instilled eating disorders in their children, it's horrible! :eek::(

There was no focus on healthy eating in my house, we just ate reasonably healthy food. There was always fruit but there were also biscuits and homemade cakes. There was freshly made food from scratch but there also frozen burgers and fish fingers. Everything in moderation. We were encouraged from a young age to actively participate in preparing dinner so we knew how to cook for ourselves.

Mom would often ask if I had eaten enough but she never forced it. As she approched middle age she was more conscious of what she ate for health reasons, and just middle aged spread But we talk about food without any judgement about what we both eat.

kylith

anamara86 wrote: »

Arg this really really annoys me! My dad and brothers were really the culprits in my family - you'd be sitting eating your dinner at the table and my dad would be staring at you while you ate it, giving a little sly smile if you were eating too quickly or making any kind of noise whatsoever. It drove me mad and to this day I'm very conscious of how I eat. My brothers, well one in particular, would make little comments to me saying I'll be huge if I continue eating the way I was (I was never bigger than a size 10!). As a child, all those negativities start to seep into your mindset and eat away at your confidence. I will never do that to my children, and if my partner ever said anything to them (which I know he never would), I would make it very clear that it's not right. Healthy eating and exercise should be promoted, not putting children down and making them feel terrible about themselves!!

Boys can be such shíts about stuff like that and, of course, if you ever said it to them I bet you'd be accused of being over-sensitive because they were "only messing".

anamara86

kylith wrote: »

Boys can be such shíts about stuff like that and, of course, if you ever said it to them I bet you'd be accused of being over-sensitive because they were "only messing".

So true! My bf often remarks "you'd swear they were in great shape themselves"

beks101

kylith wrote: »

Boys can be such shíts about stuff like that and, of course, if you ever said it to them I bet you'd be accused of being over-sensitive because they were "only messing".

I think for men, weight is often a less emotive subject as it's not really the same cultural currency as it is for women. They're not taught to police their weight from an early age because their self-worth and value as men is wrapped up in what trouser size they wear.

A lot of the time, weight can just be a practical thing. I see it in my own Dad. The last time we spoke he told me he has started a new fitness regime because he's "getting a bit fat". I told him not to be silly, he looks fine, and he looked at me like I was mad. Like trying to deny the extra pounds on his waist was an absurd thing to do - why would I lie to him like that?

Whereas I grew up in a female world where calling someone "fat" or alluding to weight gain was absolutely the worst and most horrific insult you could hurl at someone; for him it's just matter of fact, and a lot of men can be that way. You ate all the pies, now you're a fat b@stard, so stop eating all the pies and go for a run, simple as that.

meeeeh

kylith wrote: »

Boys can be such shíts about stuff like that and, of course, if you ever said it to them I bet you'd be accused of being over-sensitive because they were "only messing".

My brother always had more issues with weight than I do. He was a bit chubbier until he got into his twenties and now at 34 he has a body of a model. He weights himself everyday and does a lot of exercising. I'm a complete slob in comparison and his wife is not perfect either. He never says anything to us but he'll quickly make a negative remark about others. And I know quite a few men who wouldn't be only messing, in fact I think women are more tactful about weight issues. I mentioned somewhere else that one of my friends told his gf that she is getting fat when she went from size 6 to 8 and he meant it.

It's hard to generalize but I wonder how strong is the pressure from other sex. I'm guessing that those of who went to mixed schools are a bit more aware of it.

TheBellJar

My mother did it to me at a young age. The woman is a waste of space anyway, but I soon set her straight when I realised she'd told my sister she had a 'spare tyre' when she was 14 years old - something I only found out about when she got upset out shopping that she had to buy a size 10 in jeans. Some people just seriously should not have children.

pampootie

beks101 wrote: »

Whereas I grew up in a female world where calling someone "fat" or alluding to weight gain was absolutely the worst and most horrific insult you could hurl at someone; for him it's just matter of fact, and a lot of men can be that way. You ate all the pies, now you're a fat b@stard, so stop eating all the pies and go for a run, simple as that.

That's interesting actually, my boyfriend was talking the other day about his "thesis gut", saying he'd put on a few over the past few weeks and was looking forward to when he had time to devote to exercise again. I immediately launched into a no you haven't, you're fine type speech, he found it so strange that my impulsive reaction was to deny it completely despite the fact he had just said the scales were up half a stone.

Legs.Eleven

pampootie wrote: »

That's interesting actually, my boyfriend was talking the other day about his "thesis gut", saying he'd put on a few over the past few weeks and was looking forward to when he had time to devote to exercise again. I immediately launched into a no you haven't, you're fine type speech, he found it so strange that my impulsive reaction was to deny it completely despite the fact he had just said the scales were up half a stone.

But in fairness, I don't know many men who wouldn't say the same thing to their girlfriends if they were in that position, particularly if they know it's temporary.

beks101

pampootie wrote: »

That's interesting actually, my boyfriend was talking the other day about his "thesis gut", saying he'd put on a few over the past few weeks and was looking forward to when he had time to devote to exercise again. I immediately launched into a no you haven't, you're fine type speech, he found it so strange that my impulsive reaction was to deny it completely despite the fact he had just said the scales were up half a stone.

Yeah I can't really think of a time when a friend/sister etc gained weight, said something, and my instinct wasn't to reassure and bolster their confidence by saying otherwise.

But at the same time, I think the pressure on men is getting worse too when it comes to weight and body image. The conditioning DEFINITELY isn't the same - they're definitely not subjected to the same public commentary on their bodies that has become such a normalized part of the female experience.

BUT, I can think of a fair few lads in my life who would be very conscious of their weight and very paranoid about being either too fat or too thin. My last ex was quite skinny and constantly harping on about it, how he hated that he couldn't seem to gain weight no matter what he ate (oh if only!).

My ex before that was in great shape - 6 '1 and very strong and muscular, hardly any body fat, but every so often he'd throw out a comment about gaining half a stone, needs to get to the gym more, getting fat, blah blah blah.

I think even with that practical approach, there can be pressures too - almost as if it can be emasculating to be a "fat b@stard" in the same way that weight gain can be a judgement call on a woman's femininity/desirability.

mariaalice

Some of these posts are very sad, my motivation for not talking about weight definitely came form my mother, but I do not think it had a serious impact on me it did annoy me she use to say daft thing such as if she heard of someone having had a heart attack she would say ....and they didn't have a pick of weight on them as if nobody thin ever got ill!

One of the reason we didn't talk about weight is because I strongly object to the thin = being more worthy as a person and thin = happy, type of thinking.

Ilyana 2.0

My boyfriend would pay attention to his weight and if he's been overindulging a little, he will say 'Oh I'm getting a belly, I need to cut down'. I don't deny it, but I always tell him that it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Because it doesn't. He's slim naturally but if he gained a few pounds he'd still look great to me.

I'm trying to lose weight at the moment and he's being very encouraging about it. He'd never call me fat but if I've put on weight and decide to try to lose it, he wouldn't instantly deny that I need to lose weight, even though nearly all my female friends would.

Paddy Cow

Ilyana 2.0 wrote: »

My boyfriend would pay attention to his weight and if he's been overindulging a little, he will say 'Oh I'm getting a belly, I need to cut down'. I don't deny it, but I always tell him that it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Because it doesn't. He's slim naturally but if he gained a few pounds he'd still look great to me.

I'm trying to lose weight at the moment and he's being very encouraging about it. He'd never call me fat but if I've put on weight and decide to try to lose it, he wouldn't instantly deny that I need to lose weight, even though nearly all my female friends would.

That annoys me so much. I went from 8 1/2 stone to 12 stone and I was clearly overweight. It would wind me up no end when people told me I hadn't put on weight/wasn't overweight If it had been half a stone then I would understand but I put on nearly half of my body weight! I eventually went down to about 9 1/2 stone and the same people were telling me how great I looked :rolleyes: I know they were probably trying to be nice but it just comes across as patronising and insincere when you know you are clearly overweight and people deny it. If they really wanted to be helpful they could suggest healthy eating tips.

schwalbe

Jaysus,you can't win with you guys.If someone says to you that you're overweight then they're screwed,if they say you're not overweight they're also screwed and if they nothing they're screwed too.
Are you sure that you're not just blaming others for the mistakes you made/make?

Itwasntme.

schwalbe wrote: »

Jaysus,you can't win with you guys.If someone says to you that you're overweight then they're screwed,if they say you're not overweight they're also screwed and if they nothing they're screwed too.
Are you sure that you're not just blaming others for the mistakes you made/make?

Re: your last line, I am pretty sure that how some of us view weight related issues in general is directly related to our experiences of the subject growing up. But. I am in agreement with your first line. I hate, HATE it when the subject of weight comes up and I mention I have gained weight and I am trying to lose it and every woman around me immediately starts denying my weight gain, telling me I look fine and I don't need to lose any weight etc. I can't begin to tell you how annoying, patronising and terribly insincere I find it. Or maybe you can tell from the frustration that must be resonating off my post. This is something I have only encountered in Ireland and the west in general. Where I am from, my friends will be the first to mention I need to do something about my weight if I have gained any weight. It's never malicious either, it's just very matter of fact. So I know that if I say I need to lose weight and they say that no, I don't, then I probably need to check my perspective.

When someone in Ireland comments on their weight, I'll tell them I think they look fine if I do or just shut up about it if they don't because I am not sure what the heck to say but I also don't want to lie and say they look fine if I think the weight gain bothers them. If I was in Rwanda, I'ld definitely tell the person they had gained weight if they had and were subtly soliciting my opinion.

Paddy Cow

schwalbe wrote: »

Jaysus,you can't win with you guys.If someone says to you that you're overweight then they're screwed,if they say you're not overweight they're also screwed and if they nothing they're screwed too.
Are you sure that you're not just blaming others for the mistakes you made/make?

If someone made an unsolicited comment about my weight I would find it very rude. However if I ask their opinion I would prefer if they were honest. Pretending that I haven't put on weight when I clearly have is as counterproductive as being a total cow about it and saying something like "ya you've really piled on the pounds and look like Miss Piggy".

The problem is that so many people are sensitive about their weight, fly off the handle and hold super long grudges if someone says the wrong thing to them so it's hard to find someone who is honest. Most people just make the usual soothing noises for a quite life.

Henry9

beks101 wrote: »

I think for men, weight is often a less emotive subject as it's not really the same cultural currency as it is for women. They're not taught to police their weight from an early age because their self-worth and value as men is wrapped up in what trouser size they wear.

A lot of the time, weight can just be a practical thing. I see it in my own Dad. The last time we spoke he told me he has started a new fitness regime because he's "getting a bit fat". I told him not to be silly, he looks fine, and he looked at me like I was mad. Like trying to deny the extra pounds on his waist was an absurd thing to do - why would I lie to him like that?

Whereas I grew up in a female world where calling someone "fat" or alluding to weight gain was absolutely the worst and most horrific insult you could hurl at someone; for him it's just matter of fact, and a lot of men can be that way. You ate all the pies, now you're a fat b@stard, so stop eating all the pies and go for a run, simple as that.

Why don't you just choose to make it a more practical thing?
Your weight is an objective thing, like your height.
The problem in the places I've worked is that women in general can't discuss weight without it becoming a group empathy session.
They only bring it up so that someone will dispute it, then they have to return the compliment. This then goes around in circles for an hour.

Contrast that with two men having the same conversation:
Male 1: I think I've put on weight.
Male 2: Yes you're right, you fat cnut. Now move away from the window, you're blocking all the light.

Over the years though, I've noticed 2 things in the language women use.

1. They'll often use the phrase 'very good', like they're praising a child.
e.g. I've been very good this week, I haven't eaten any chocolate!
They seem to relate not eating crap as reflecting the kind of person they are.

2. Having been 'very good' for a period of time, they then deserve 'a treat'. Again, like a child or something.
Completely self defeating approach, so they get all depressed and eat accordingly.

Another thing I've noticed is that a lot of women try to sabotage anyone who loses weight. Usually with the 'oh but you've been so good, have some cake!'.
Guys will tend to say 'fair play, wish I could do that'.

Anyway, take responsibility for your eating, you can't blame your parents all your life. None of this is rocket science really.

People with genuine eating disorders are a different kettle of fish obviously.

coffee_cake

Henry9 wrote: »

They seem to relate not eating crap as reflecting the kind of person they are.

That's because many women appear to have had their entire childhoods with this very sentiment being drilled into them

Henry9

bluewolf wrote: »

That's because many women appear to have had their entire childhoods with this very sentiment being drilled into them

What, that eating cake makes you a bad person?

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. But let's say that's true.
What now then?
Spend your life telling yourself you're a victim of childhood indoctrination?
Are you going to be fat when you're 50 because of things your mother used to say 40 years previously?

On a related note, I'd say young girls get lots of ideas drilled into them that they seem to reject. If I was to say that there are certain jobs that women aren't suitable for, this place would explode.
Why are they capable of rejecting those ideas and not others?

Legs.Eleven

Itwasntme. wrote: »

Re: your last line, I am pretty sure that how some of us view weight related issues in general is directly related to our experiences of the subject growing up. But. I am in agreement with your first line. I hate, HATE it when the subject of weight comes up and I mention I have gained weight and I am trying to lose it and every woman around me immediately starts denying my weight gain, telling me I look fine and I don't need to lose any weight etc. I can't begin to tell you how annoying, patronising and terribly insincere I find it. Or maybe you can tell from the frustration that must be resonating off my post. This is something I have only encountered in Ireland and the west in general. Where I am from, my friends will be the first to mention I need to do something about my weight if I have gained any weight. It's never malicious either, it's just very matter of fact. So I know that if I say I need to lose weight and they say that no, I don't, then I probably need to check my perspective.

When someone in Ireland comments on their weight, I'll tell them I think they look fine if I do or just shut up about it if they don't because I am not sure what the heck to say but I also don't want to lie and say they look fine if I think the weight gain bothers them. If I was in Rwanda, I'ld definitely tell the person they had gained weight if they had and were subtly soliciting my opinion.

I personally would say nothing at all if they commented on it. I've actually never been in that situation before though. I've had women complaining about their weight when they didn't need to and obviously I would tell them they look good and to stop worrying but in all honesty, I could never tell a woman she's put on weight and she should lose it.

I see it as some people not wanting to make someone feel worse about something they probably already feel bad about. The fact is, there's bigger women (overweight) who DO look great. Some women carry their weight well. I understand it's not the healthiest state to be in but more often than not, a woman knows she's put on the kilos but she can still look good. I can't in a million years imagine saying to a woman, "Yeah, you have put on weight." and leaving it at that. Women's weight fluctuates but they can still look great in the interim and actually, sometimes it's NOT obvious if a woman is a little bit overweight.

I honestly think people have the best intentions at heart generally speaking.

Legs.Eleven

Henry9 wrote: »

What, that eating cake makes you a bad person?

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. But let's say that's true.
What now then?
Spend your life telling yourself you're a victim of childhood indoctrination?
Are you going to be fat when you're 50 because of things your mother used to say 40 years previously?

On a related note, I'd say young girls get lots of ideas drilled into them that they seem to reject. If I was to say that there are certain jobs that women aren't suitable for, this place would explode.
Why are they capable of rejecting those ideas and not others?

I presume because everyone's different and cope with things in different ways?

Henry9

Henry9 wrote: »

Why are they capable of rejecting those ideas and not others?

Because 'they' are all different and some things get to us more than others as a measure of our self-worth.

Like men and penis size.

Why are they less bothered when people mention their feet are small than their penis?

Why are 'they' capable of rejecting some ideas and not others?

It's almost like we're all human, or something.

Henry9

Candie wrote: »

Because 'they' are all different and some things get to us more than others as a measure of our self-worth.

Like men and penis size.

Why are they less bothered when people mention their feet are small than their penis?

Why are 'they' capable of rejecting some ideas and not others?

It's almost like we're all human, or something.

Why the inflammatory reply? Is it not a reasonable thing to ask?

Henry9

Henry9 wrote: »

Why the inflammatory reply? Is it not a reasonable thing to ask?

Not in the way it was framed, no.

beks101

Henry9 wrote: »

Why don't you just choose to make it a more practical thing?
Your weight is an objective thing, like your height.

I agree with a lot of your post but with respect, this is akin to saying, "why don't you just choose to be less depressed? Your moods are an objective thing"

These weight and body image issues aren't something that women choose to hang themselves with, at least not in any conscious way.

There's so much more to "feeling fat", or feeling hurt at the implication, or seeking body reassurance from others, or feeling "guilty" because you ate lots of "bad food", than some woman wanting to relinquish responsibility for herself and blame her childhood for all her problems.

No, you can't become a martyr to a dysfunction in your childhood and blame that for the entire sum of misery in your life, but that's the foundation that we are all working off - that's the script that was written for us all at an early age, and to say that it shouldn't influence our adult selves is to ignore the rudiments of basic psychology.

This is a problem with many faces. It's how someone was conditioned to think as a child, it's the social pressure and judgement they may face every day of their lives, it's peer pressure, it's cultural norms, it's their own personality traits, it's their own psychology and accompanying coping mechanisms they developed that were "socially acceptable", it's the bombardment of messages, subliminal or otherwise, in every woman's daily life that tells her she needs to police her weight, being 'fat' makes her unworthy, being 'fat' takes away from any other admirable quality she should choose to define herself on as a woman.

It's pervasive, it's socially acceptable and it's encouraged to calorie count, or to 'detox', or to embark on the diet-du-jour, or to feel guilty about eating pizza and chocolate, to judge and over-value their weight in a way that men don't quite experience (though the tide may be changing there too).

And all of these things conspire to create an environment in which being called a "fat cnut" IS a judgement call and not merely a practical evaluation of someone's weight.

Henry9

beks101 wrote: »

I agree with a lot of your post but with respect, this is akin to saying, "why don't you just choose to be less depressed? Your moods are an objective thing"

That's not what I meant. A poster said that for her father it was matter of fact, my question was why not try to mimic that outlook.
I would never tell someone to choose to be less depressed. A mood is not an objective thing at all, someone's weight is.

Even here you have some posters saying they would want an honest answer to a weight related question, and others refuse to give an honest answer if asked. Why do women tie themselves up in knots? And given that they do, is the defensiveness and feeling of victimhood helping or hindering the situation?

I'm not finger pointing at anyone, but these are perfectly reasonable things to ask on the subject. Many people with issues have probably asked themselves already. I see no harm in kicking the subject around.
Defensive responses do nothing but reinforce the situation.

beks101 wrote: »

No, you can't become a martyr to a dysfunction in your childhood and blame that for the entire sum of misery in your life, but that's the foundation that we are all working off - that's the script that was written for us all at an early age, and to say that it shouldn't influence our adult selves is to ignore the rudiments of basic psychology.

I didn't say ignore it. But the only way out is to take responsibility at some point. Otherwise in 10 years you'll have the same conversation

beks101 wrote: »

This is a problem with many faces. It's how someone was conditioned to think as a child, it's the social pressure and judgement they may face every day of their lives, it's peer pressure, it's cultural norms, it's their own personality traits, it's their own psychology and accompanying coping mechanisms they developed that were "socially acceptable", it's the bombardment of messages, subliminal or otherwise, in every woman's daily life that tells her she needs to police her weight, being 'fat' makes her unworthy, being 'fat' takes away from any other admirable quality she should choose to define herself on as a woman.

Like I asked before, there's a lot of things you could be describing there.
Why does this issue cause people to throw their hands up and say 'childhood'?
There's a million things you could carry from your childhood but don't.

There's another thread on not wanting children. You could write the same paragraph about that issue and a woman's self worth, but it doesn't have the same kind of responses. Just wondering why is all.

Girls are conditioned to mind dollies and change nappies, but plenty reject that conditioning. If I told a woman to get back in the kitchen we know what the reaction would be. But on this issue it's like so many people wave a white flag and blame their mothers.

beks101 wrote: »

It's pervasive, it's socially acceptable and it's encouraged to calorie count, or to 'detox', or to embark on the diet-du-jour, or to feel guilty about eating pizza and chocolate, to judge and over-value their weight in a way that men don't quite experience (though the tide may be changing there too)

I don't think calorie counting is the problem. It's reading stupid celebrity magazines where everyone has cellulite. But then why buy and read the bloody things?

beks101 wrote: »

And all of these things conspire to create an environment in which being called a "fat cnut" IS a judgement call and not merely a practical evaluation of someone's weight.

Maybe. But like I said let's say that is so. Now what?
Empathy won't make anybody any thinner, it's purely arithmetic.
How do you move people from where they are to where they want to be?

beks101

Henry9 -

I nodded along to your entire post.

I agree. I get it. I understand.

And it's a refreshing idea, that someone can switch their brain from having an emotional attachment to their weight and body image, to thinking of it solely as arithmetic.

Academically, it makes sense. Intellectually, I can think of no greater theory.

But we're not operating in an academic world here. And neither is any woman committing to the cause of weight and body and food angst because she can think of no better way to be.

What you call "defensiveness" is what I call explaining an issue that has so many layers and so many influences on my - and many women's - lives that I feel it warrants analysis and consideration. It warrants more than "change your perspective".

Of COURSE we'd all like to change. Jesus, if I could practically apply all the 'fail-proof' academic theories on how to "let food be fuel...let your weight be an objective thing" I'd have moved on ten years ago. Fcuk that, fifteen years ago.

But without an exact, specific, step-by-step, day-by-day, thought-by-thought, pre-emptive and tailor-made, personalized plan, that accounts for the many deeply ingrained thought patterns and daily pitfalls in thinking many women have, that advice is just along the lines of "eat less, exercise more"

What's the first step in that process? Dump the celebrity magazines? Eat some chocolate? Tell your friend that yes, she could do with losing some weight the next time she asks?

It's not about the weight. It's about our value and worth as women and how we are encouraged to merge those two things

What you call "feelings of victimhood" is what I call the sharing of experiences on a message board where the thread title was "why do women do this?" It's a response to that, a list of the repercussions as I have perceived them, as a woman. And sure, a lot of what we go through is sh1t, and not fair, but I find the sharing of it all as an experience a lot more empowering than the suggestion that we just, well, don't go through it anymore, turn a blind eye to the whole thing, pretend that world just isn't there.

There are so many "shoulds" in this world that many women are already ridden with guilt and inadequacy, without being reminded that they're going about things aRseways, perhaps they should just switch off their feelings and responses to the lifetime of mixed up messages they've been fed.

To just magically, instantaneously develop a mathematical, practical approach to something that has always been loaded with emotion and judgement.

Millicent

To add to what Beks says, it's only in the last year when I have truly stopped giving a fiddler's about what other people thought of me or what I look like that I've lost weight. It's not coincidental.

It took me a long time to disregard other people's emotions and opinions about my appearance and to get to the point where I decided to value only my own opinion on what I looked like. That was a long, slow, hard journey.

It's not as easy as deciding to disregard your upbringing and all the influences on you over a course of a lifetime and say "I'll just lose weight", especially when a large chunk of your self esteem is tied up in what you look like/weigh.

schwalbe

You guys are totally acting weird about this and claiming the whole body image bombardment thing as your own,you'd swear that guys aren't bombarded with the exact same stuff as girls are.Do you think the male role models we see are any different to yours?
You know Batman and all the superheroes right?Well they have a certain body type,just like Hulk Hogan and all that and even the male models have ideal bodies.Guys are subjected to the exact same stuff that girls are,we just don't claim the feeling we experience as our own like girls do.

schwalbe

bluewolf wrote: »

That's because many women appear to have had their entire childhoods with this very sentiment being drilled into them

Newsflash,so have guys.