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Irish teenager is 'being beaten to hell' in a Cairo prison

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    #182
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    nacho libre wrote: »
    Why is Saudi Arabia supporting sunni islamism in Syria with military aid, yet at the same time backing the Egyptian military in crushing a group whose ideology is also based on sunni islamism? What am i missing here?

    Geo-politics


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    #183
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Capercaille wrote: »
    If you consider yourself Irish that's no problem. If you consider yourself British that ain't no problem either.

    But by your reckoning i could call myself Irish even though it's plain to see that i am not.


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    #184
    up for anything
    Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭up for anything


    Boombastic wrote: »
    A man with such influence willing to sacrifice his family for the cause in Egypt, interesting
    Boombastic wrote: »
    What am I making up and what evidence have you :pac: ?

    My evidence is the first quote above. I'm not bothered now if you answer the question as it's obvious that your mindset is much the same as the poster' below and there is no point to this back and forth crap.
    Capercaille wrote: »
    That doesn't matter. They will always be foreigners.
    Capercaille wrote: »
    I assume you mean the young fellow who was born in Ireland. He's still a foreigner and that he will remain.


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    #185
    Capercaille
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭Capercaille


    bumper234 wrote: »
    But by your reckoning i could call myself Irish even though it's plain to see that i am not.
    I have cousins in England, who have an English mother and an Irish father (my uncle). They consider themselves Irish, as is their choice. I regulary attend Republic of Ireland soccer games with them.


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    #186
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Capercaille wrote: »
    I have cousins in England, who have an English mother and an Irish father (my uncle). They consider themselves Irish, as is their choice. I regulary attend Republic of Ireland soccer games with them.

    But you don't think someone born in Ireland is Irish?


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    #187
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    okay, stop with this what is and what isn't Irish bullsh*t. Take it as fact the teenagers are Irish and move on from there to discuss the actual topic.


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    #188
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    nacho libre wrote: »
    Why is Saudi Arabia supporting sunni islamism in Syria with military aid, yet at the same time backing the Egyptian military in crushing a group whose ideology is also based on sunni islamism? What am i missing here?
    One of the Muslim Brotherhood's main aims is to create an Islamic empire/caliphate (their founder used the word "reclaim") spanning Spain to Indonesia. Naturally a caliphate has a caliph. Almost the definition of democracy isn't it? They're a clear threat to Saudi Arabia and in fact any government where they have a foothold which is why they'll do anything to oppose them.

    If for example the US cut its military aid or the EU banned trading with Egypt, you can be sure Saudi Arabia will be one of the first there to take their place.


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    #189
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,725 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Geo-politics

    of course. how could i have been so blind. the house of saud hates shia Iran, and would like nothing better than to see her proxies decimated so as to weaken Iranian influence in the region , so if that means supporting sunni extremist in Syria to achieve this aim then so be it, yet they do not want the very same people to become a threat to their own rule, which they must fear happening if the muslim brotherhood managed to become the dominant player in Egypt, hence their support for the Egyptian military.


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    #190
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    nacho libre wrote: »
    of course. how could i have been so blind. the house of saud hates shia Iran, and would like nothing better than to see her proxies decimated so as to weaken Iranian influence in the region , so if that means supporting sunni extremist in Syria to achieve this aim then so be it, yet they do not want the very same people to become a threat to their own rule, which they must fear happening if the muslim brotherhood managed to become the dominant player in Egypt, hence their support for the Egyptian military.


    ....everybody is brothers in Allah/Christ as long as it suits. When you look back at historical religious conflict, its very hard to tell where religion ends and self interest begins.


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    #191
    returnNull
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭returnNull


    Capercaille wrote: »
    I assume you mean the young fellow who was born in Ireland. He's still a foreigner and that he will remain.

    bigot.


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    #192
    danniemcq
    Registered Users Posts: 14,163 ✭✭✭✭danniemcq


    No Personal Abuse, lets try and keep this civil.


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    #193
    returnNull
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭returnNull


    Capercaille wrote: »
    I assume you mean the young fellow who was born in Ireland. He's still a foreigner and that he will remain.
    bigot.

    for the record a fair description of a bigot:
    Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry
    danniemcq wrote: »
    No Personal Abuse, lets try and keep this civil.
    sorry meant to say your post is bigoted.Not that the poster is a bigot.


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    #194
    Smiles35
    Registered Users Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭Smiles35


    Concidering the youngfellas age I hope he can get some assistance.


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    #195
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    I'm sorry but have I missed something ??

    They ran out to a country where essentially a civil war is ongoing. Military had been given the go ahead to use live ammunition..
    They went out, joined in a group protesting against said military...
    Surely its no surprise they were rounded up and slung in jail, and then no surprise they aren't getting four star treatment..

    I can't see what the problem here is... they put themselves in harms way, and now there's shock and horror because they are on the receiving end of a brutal regime.

    Its great that they felt strongly enough to fight for a cause and go half way round the world to get involved... but if your going to play with the big boys then you damn well better be ready for the consequences.


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    #196
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    bbam wrote: »
    I'm sorry but have I missed something ??

    They ran out to a country where essentially a civil war is ongoing. Military had been given the go ahead to use live ammunition..
    They went out, joined in a group protesting against said military...
    Surely its no surprise they were rounded up and slung in jail, and then no surprise they aren't getting four star treatment.

    People have gone off and fought in wars; for their ideals, and to protect what they believe in since.. forever.

    It's only recently that Irish people were officially 'forgiven' for going off and fighting the Nazis, or whatever elements of that war they were idealistically opposed to. They weren't doing so because it was a publicly endorsed or popular form of action.. at the time it was seen as almost treacherous to the state and its interests.

    Nobody is saying they should receive 4 star treatment, but it's up to our diplomats and the links with other countries we have formed over the years; to ensure that civilians are treated fairly. Otherwise what's the point in having diplomatic ties with anyone.. and why does anyone who ever fights in a war deserve to be treated humanely?


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    #197
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Why should they?

    If I moved abroad I don't think I'd feel compelled to protest the government seeing as I'm a guest in the country - if they protested against this government I'd bet there'd be people going on about how they have a nerve when they get to live here...

    Maybe if I moved abroad I'd protest the government after a good stint living there, but I don't see how it should be mandatory.

    Who moved where? I don't understand.


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    #198
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Can you also see why people would protest against returning the Muslim Brotherhood back to power?

    I can see why they would, but you can't make a big deal about democratic elections and then support an army in a coup de tat, it makes a mockery of the very principle you are supposedly defending.

    That might seem a bit high faluting or whatever, but you can't support the over throwing of the very basic tenet of your belief, and then rubber stamp that by supporting an army attacking supporters of politics you don't like. It makes a mockery of democracy.

    Elections aren't an A la Carte menu.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #199
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    My name is URL wrote: »
    People have gone off and fought in wars; for their ideals, and to protect what they believe in since.. forever.

    It's only recently that Irish people were officially 'forgiven' for going off and fighting the Nazis, or whatever elements of that war they were idealistically opposed to. They weren't doing so because it was a publicly endorsed or popular form of action.. at the time it was seen as almost treacherous to the state and its interests.

    Nobody is saying they should receive 4 star treatment, but it's up to our diplomats and the links with other countries we have formed over the years; to ensure that civilians are treated fairly. Otherwise what's the point in having diplomatic ties with anyone.. and why does anyone who ever fights in a war deserve to be treated humanely?


    I've no problem with people going off and fighting for whatever cause they see fit.. Fair play to their conviction.

    I have a problem with the media trying to make them sound unfortunate and that it somehow was a surprise that things went pear shaped..

    If ya put your head into the lions mouth he might bite it off... and if he does surely it shouldn't be much of a surprise !

    Maybe its too hard a line but I've no sympathy for them.. they made their choices and now its time for consequences.

    Same goes for the pair of dolls in Peru..

    Same for the madman yielding the sword in the north two weeks ago, they should have blown his fat head off, its obvious he was out with no good intent.


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    #200
    shane9689
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭shane9689


    Sunglasses Ron wrote: »
    Bollocks. If Irish born white people were arrested while protesting in favour of Islamic fundamentalists in Egypt I would be equally suspicious of them. It is a bit like these people who find themselves in Guantanamo and claim that they were in the wilds of Afghanistan ether backpacking or doing charity work.

    guilty until proven innocent i see...real smart, real smart


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    #201
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    K-9 wrote: »
    I can see why they would, but you can't make a big deal about democratic elections and then support an army in a coup de tat, it makes a mockery of the very principle you are supposedly defending.
    And the Muslim Brotherhood lying outright to the world claiming to be democratic when their primary goal is to create an undemocratic caliphate is what exactly?

    Let's consider two possibilities here.
    1. The military hold the country until re-elections in six months, hopefully in a state of stability with no need for violence from either side. The people vote in another president and new politicians which almost certainly won't have anything to do with the Muslim Brotherhood if the opinion polls are anything to go by. If whoever's voted in actually focuses on improving the country rather than grandiose schemes to build an empire and threaten and silence critics, there will be no protests.
    2. The military give back power to the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi. Whoever opposed them is punished in some manner or another and the Muslim Brotherhood continue in their vision to form an Islamic caliphate with Jerusalem as its centre. Trouble spreads around the region as they gain power and try and reshape the world to form their empire. If they succeed (and that is almost certainly impossible), the end result is a caliphate, not some utopian Western-like democracy. They'll use democracy to get in and justify their power but after that, their power is cemented in a caliphate. The end result is not democracy and reeks of the empire building of the middle ages and earlier.

    I know which option I prefer.


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    #202
    Sunglasses Ron
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Sunglasses Ron


    Leftist wrote: »
    Yeah, those people who travelled to afghanistan, a war zone for the past 11years are teh same as people who went to Egypt which has descended into violent counter-protest in the past few weeks.

    They certainly share a great deal of their views.

    If a hardline catholic was protesting in northern ireland in the 1960s would you view it the same way as a muslim protesting in egypt in 2013?


    You seem to be mixing nationalism with religious fundamentalism. But yes, if Catholics in the North had been protesting demanding that the state force people to go to mass every Sunday and made pre marital sex a criminal offence, of course, yes, I would tell em to get ****ed. A Muslim version of this, complete with burqas, a ban on alcohol and all the rest of the Saudi legal code are exactly where these guys are trying to go. And I don't have much sympathy for Irish citizens caught trying to prop this type of nonsense up.

    shane9689 wrote: »
    guilty until proven innocent i see...real smart, real smart


    Being quite honest, in the case of Al Quaeda I am all for drones and extraordinary rendition. Just because slating Obama has become an in and trendy thing to be doing over the last six months does not mean I am suddenly going to buy into a load of conspiracy theory bollocks and demand fair and balanced human rights for terrorists who operate in areas which are beyond the reach of more traditional means of arresting them.


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    #203
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭conorhal


    My name is URL wrote: »
    People have gone off and fought in wars; for their ideals, and to protect what they believe in since.. forever.

    It's only recently that Irish people were officially 'forgiven' for going off and fighting the Nazis, or whatever elements of that war they were idealistically opposed to. They weren't doing so because it was a publicly endorsed or popular form of action.. at the time it was seen as almost treacherous to the state and its interests.

    Nobody is saying they should receive 4 star treatment, but it's up to our diplomats and the links with other countries we have formed over the years; to ensure that civilians are treated fairly. Otherwise what's the point in having diplomatic ties with anyone.. and why does anyone who ever fights in a war deserve to be treated humanely?

    Yeah, but going to fight with the Muslim Brotherhood against Sisi, is kind of like joining the Nazi's to fight Stalin......


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    #204
    Sunglasses Ron
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Sunglasses Ron


    conorhal wrote: »
    Yeah, but going to fight with the Muslim Brotherhood against Sisi, is kind of like joining the Nazi's to fight Stalin......

    Exactly. So what if the MB were democratically elected anyway? So were the Nazis. Mitt Romney nearly was. Sarah Palin got in in Alaska. Tony Blair, Fianna Fail, the list of complete ****, traitors, murderers and general fools democratically elected that their respective nations would be better off without is endless.


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    #205
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Sunglasses Ron wrote: »
    Exactly. So what if the MB were democratically elected anyway? So were the Nazis. Mitt Romney nearly was. Sarah Palin got in in Alaska. Tony Blair, Fianna Fail, the list of complete ****, traitors, murderers and general fools democratically elected that their respective nations would be better off without is endless.

    The Muslim brotherhood are more like Putin and Mugabe, they embrace democracy only in so far is it allows them into power, after that it becomes a rather disposable commodity.

    I'm irritated to have to hear the Muslim Brotherhood on every news program bleating about the restoration of democracy when anybody that's paid even the most scant attention to what has been going on in Egypt over the past two years understands the hypocrisy of that position, given that the very first thing the Brotherhood did on attaining their democratic mandate was to start dismantling democracy in Egypt.

    Like Putin and Mugabe, the Brotherhood's view of democracy is defined as 'one man, one vote ...one time'. After that you can democratically elect any Muslim Brotherhood candidate approved by the mullahs that you wish.

    Islamism or any theocratic state is in it's nature, fundamentally opposed to democracy, because in a democracy people are entitled to enact laws not approved by 'the book' (whichever book you may chose that to be) and thus, no theocratic party which has an absolutist stance on the primacy of Islamic law can permit democratic decisions to infringe upon Islamic law, so democracy has to go.

    I'm glad the Brotherhood have been chucked out. It's clear that having had a taste of the Muslim Brotherhoods version of democracy, a large chunk of Egypt would rather live in a police state, which pretty much tells you everything you need to know about those goons.


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    #206
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    The Irish people trapped in the moske, wasn't their father the head dude in the moske


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    #207
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    old_aussie wrote: »
    The Irish people trapped in the moske, wasn't their father the head dude in the moske

    What?


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    #208
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    old_aussie wrote: »
    The Irish people trapped in the moske, wasn't their father the head dude in the moske

    In clonskea in Dublin


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    #209
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Is there any substantiated proof that he was beaten?(the son in Cairo that is)


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    #210
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    bumper234 wrote: »
    In clonskea in Dublin

    Thanks, wasn't sure if it was the moske in Cairo or Dublin


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    #211
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Nodin wrote: »
    What?

    lol, what part are you having a problem understanding?


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