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Irish teenager is 'being beaten to hell' in a Cairo prison
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Sunglasses Ron wrote: »Not exactly. What I find amusing is that in the coming days we will be hearing all about why these arrests are so wrong and unjust from a father who is closely aligned with a figure who claims that one can deservedly invite trouble from others onto themselves by their conduct. Even the most blinkered people posting here can see the irony in that one surely.
There is little irony in it, and to me, it seems like some sort of justification. Also, what your saying is a hell stretch, on the basis of there Father aligned with someone who said that. Your not far off a Kevin Bacon 6 degrees of separation imho. You may have had a point if there father was the one arrested.Sunglasses Ron wrote: »Was their father on the panel that was asked this question per chance?
Not a clue, but its rather irrelevant, as is your entire example of "irony".Sunglasses Ron wrote: »Were these kids involved in violence? I have no idea. But they were protesting in favour of a medieval sect being returned to power, so I don't really care either way.
There is no evidence that they were involved in any violence. Also, the Brotherhood aren't a sect, but a political party, but we shouldn't let things like facts get in the way of things.0 -
Regarding video footage of Ibrahim Halawa addressing a pro Muslim Brotherhood rally, there is indeed a video on the net. I watched it. There were links from a number of commentators in the comments section of stories on this matter in " The Journal .ie ". There were also links from this site http://marahouseluxor.com/irish-times-challenged-egypt-article/. The link appears to have been removed from both sites. Perhaps it does not fit with the " innocently caught up " narrative.
The clip is about 30 minutes long. Ibrahim Halawa features for about 8 to 9 minutes from about 6.15. Clearly he is introduced as being from "Ireland/Irlande/etc". He speaks in either his native language or Arabic.
The international press is full of " Our Man In Cairo " stories from last Friday and the impending " Day Of Rage ", hunkering down, staying indoors and waiting for the trouble to start. The citizens of Cairo knew what was coming and were preparing for it. Here is just one. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-08-16/cairos-day-of-rage
I am afraid I do not buy " Innocently Caught Up ". There is more to it than this.
Does anybody have the original link ?0 -
justanotherone wrote: »Regarding video footage of Ibrahim Halawa addressing a pro Muslim Brotherhood rally, there is indeed a video on the net. I watched it.
Where did you watch it? I'm looking and I honestly can't find it. If the link you had is not working anymore, what did you Google?0 -
justanotherone wrote: »I am afraid I do not buy " Innocently Caught Up ". There is more to it than this.
They were out protesting (which has been established already), and were doing so peacefully. How does speaking at a rally change that exactly? There is no good reason for there arrest at all, and considering that the coup has murdered 100s, its rather amazing that is essentially being put to one side, and in some quarter there being cheered on to kill as many as they can manage.0 -
I'm sure the boy knew the risks involved.
The army issued threats - they even publicly said they would use "live ammunition if needed", the DFA issued a travel advisory warning Irish citizens not to protest, there had been violence in previous protests, he could have assessed the situation and notice the tension growing, etc.
He made a calculated risk and is now languishing in jail. I hope he is released soon and isn't hurt but to say he was completely unaware and didn't know there was a high risk of the situation turning ugly is naive.0 -
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THere was a time in our history where it was an honour for your kids to be in that position, some parts of the world do not have our freedom and there it is still an honour on fight for your rights.Boombastic wrote: »I know its a family of 3 girls and 1 lad, it says so with pictures and all in the link I posted;)
Fight for a foreign cause, I refer to that young boy (16) who went to fight in Syria http://www.irishtimes.com/news/navan-teenager-killed-fighting-with-syrian-rebels-1.1314065
Do you not think there is a strong possibility he could be killed? Who would wish to put their teenager in that position?
Not a xenophobe, they are obviously passionate about politics, I'm just wonder have they shown this passion about any issue which effect their home country0 -
They were out protesting (which has been established already), and were doing so peacefully. How does speaking at a rally change that exactly? There is no good reason for there arrest at all, and considering that the coup has murdered 100s, its rather amazing that is essentially being put to one side, and in some quarter there being cheered on to kill as many as they can manage.
Actually, we really don't know much about why they are in Egypt, why they travelled there and what they are doing there. So it would be best not to invent scenarios that suit agendas.
There is clearly more to this story. Only time will tell. Currently, we have been given little information, mostly from individuals with a vested interest, and we are only being told what suits.
And what suits is to be " Irish ".
Do you personally know them ? Can you personally tell the rest of us ?
There are only a few things we can be clear on. Their identities. That they travelled from Ireland to Eygpt. That they attended Friday's Day Of Rage protest in support of the Muslim Brotherhood. They were arrested. That the brother was a speaker at another, previous protest called " Defending Democracy ". That they are currently under arrest.
Other than that, we cannot be really clear about anything else. Anything else is speculation.
Initial information came from one of the sisters, phoning Western media outlets. The information she provided was somewhat hysterical.
Once her phone battery ran out, the information has mainly come from the sister in Dublin giving interviews, some of which have been likewise hysterical.
For example the ridiculous " Irish teen BEATEN TO HELL " story, without any evidence whatsoever. They may as well have said " Irish teen has been forced to share a jail cell with Elvis, Shergar and Lord Lucan ". There was no evidence.
Like the ladies in Peru, the story has changed several times.
First of all they went to the mosque because they were doing something completely different and simply got caught up.
First of all they were " on holiday like any other Irish teenagers ".
Then it turned out, they were not doing something else, they were protesting.
Then video footage turned up, which showed that Ibrahim had previously been a guest speaker at another protest.
Other sources, linked to in my original post, stated that THOUSANDS of peaceful protestors went home to observe the curfew.
There is more to this story than meets the eye.
Again, this Irish woman, who has lived in Egypt for many years, gave more context to the initial story, than a reporter taking quotes from a teenage girl who may have an agenda.
http://marahouseluxor.com/irish-times-challenged-egypt-article/0 -
What are you talking about with all this nonsense about fighting for your rights and freedom?Ash.J.Williams wrote: »THere was a time in our history where it was an honour for your kids to be in that position, some parts of the world do not have our freedom and there it is still an honour on fight for your rights.
No one who supports the Muslim Brotherhood can claim they're fighting for freedom or rights, they can't even claim they're fighting for democracy.0 -
partyatmygaff wrote: »What are you talking about with all this nonsense about fighting for your rights and freedom?
No one who supports the Muslim Brotherhood can claim they're fighting for freedom or rights, they can't even claim they're fighting for democracy.
The same could be said about the IRA in the 70's/80's0 -
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justanotherone wrote: »Actually, we really don't know much about why they are in Egypt, why they travelled there and what they are doing there. So it would be best not to invent scenarios that suit agendas.
Except that we do know why they were there. It was clearly established earlier in the thread.
No need to invent anything at all. They were visiting family before the protest began.justanotherone wrote: »There is clearly more to this story. Only time will tell. Currently, we have been given little information, mostly from individuals with a vested interest, and we are only being told what suits.
There isn't clearly more to the story. There is no reason to doubt what we already know. The only vested interest, are there family wanting there children to be let out of prison.justanotherone wrote: »And what suits is to be " Irish ".
Do you personally know them ? Can you personally tell the rest of us ?
I don't need to know them, to comment on the topic, and I have no reason to doubt what has been said in the media.
I do know people who do know them, but that neither here nor there.justanotherone wrote: »There are only a few things we can be clear on. Their identities. That they travelled from Ireland to Eygpt. That they attended Friday's Day Of Rage protest in support of the Muslim Brotherhood. They were arrested. That the brother was a speaker at another, previous protest called " Defending Democracy ". That they are currently under arrest.
Other than that, we cannot be really clear about anything else. Anything else is speculation.
What else do we need to know exactly. They were arrested for protesting, and should be released.justanotherone wrote: »Initial information came from one of the sisters, phoning Western media outlets. The information she provided was somewhat hysterical.
Being arrested for peaceful protests, by an army who have been killing people in the streets, would lead to some hysteria.justanotherone wrote: »Once her phone battery ran out, the information has mainly come from the sister in Dublin giving interviews, some of which have been likewise hysterical.
Again, the army have been killing protesters, and have killed 100s. Hysteria is perfectly understandable.justanotherone wrote: »For example the ridiculous " Irish teen BEATEN TO HELL " story, without any evidence whatsoever. They may as well have said " Irish teen has been forced to share a jail cell with Elvis, Shergar and Lord Lucan ". There was no evidence.
Well, considering that the army has already killed protesters, and that the army has a history of you know beating and killing protesters, and the claims made by the sisters, I wouldn't say there was no evidence what so ever. Surely the claims of one of the sisters would count as evidence. You may not think its enough evidence, and thats fair enough, but its hardly nothing.justanotherone wrote: »Like the ladies in Peru, the story has changed several times.
No it hasn't. We have gotten more information over time, which is not the same as the story changing.justanotherone wrote: »First of all they went to the mosque because they were doing something completely different and simply got caught up.
That was initial reports, we found out later they were protesting. The media were the ones who reported that, so no story being changed.justanotherone wrote: »First of all they were " on holiday like any other Irish teenagers ".
They were on holiday before the protest started. So again no change.justanotherone wrote: »Then it turned out, they were not doing something else, they were protesting.
They were on holiday before protests started.justanotherone wrote: »Then video footage turned up, which showed that Ibrahim had previously been a guest speaker at another protest.
So, they were at another earlier protest. Again, I fail see how this change a things. What exactly is wrong with that? Again, we are getting more information as time goes on, how exactly do you expect people in prison to provide a full accounting of there whereabouts from prison? What does it matter that they were at another protest? Does that justify arresting them?
So far we see people who were against the coup and nothing more as we get more information.justanotherone wrote: »Other sources, linked to in my original post, stated that THOUSANDS of peaceful protestors went home to observe the curfew.
Kind of hard to go home, when your trapped by the military in a Mosque, who were earlier murdering protesters in the street. Kind of hard to go home in that situation.justanotherone wrote: »There is more to this story than meets the eye.
I see nothing at all, except trying to insinuate something sinister is happening the basis of nothing.justanotherone wrote: »Again, this Irish woman, who has lived in Egypt for many years, gave more context to the initial story, than a reporter taking quotes from a teenage girl who may have an agenda.
http://marahouseluxor.com/irish-times-challenged-egypt-article/
Wait so you source is a tourism web site? Really?
Not even a news blog, but a tourism web site, that provides almost no links to back up its claims. This is a joke right? The claims on that site has as much validity as claims made by anyone on here.
I wonder how that tourism web site is funded......0 -
partyatmygaff wrote: »And your point?
The point is simple. You may not think freedom is is worth fighting for (regardless of which political party you choose to align with) but others do think it's worth fighting for. You might remember that the first time you are old enough to vote.0 -
partyatmygaff wrote: »What are you talking about with all this nonsense about fighting for your rights and freedom?
No one who supports the Muslim Brotherhood can claim they're fighting for freedom or rights, they can't even claim they're fighting for democracy.
If that is the case, then neither can the other side, who have purposefully made a political solution impossible. I hope the supporters of the military know what they have let themselves in for, because once there done with the Brotherhood, they will happily go after the secular parties etc, if they step out of line.0 -
The same could be said about the IRA in the 70's/80's
I really don't agree with this. Catholics were being discriminated against at the time in Northern Ireland. I don't see Muslims being specifically targeted in Egypt, just members of the Muslim Brotherhood who are in fact discriminating against everyone who is not a member of the Muslim Brotherhood- including Muslims who don't agree with what they are doing.0 -
denhaagenite wrote: »I really don't agree with this. Catholics were being discriminated against at the time in Northern Ireland. I don't see Muslims being specifically targeted in Egypt, just members of the Muslim Brotherhood who are in fact discriminating against everyone who is not a member of the Muslim Brotherhood- including Muslims who don't agree with what they are doing.
Look up sunni and shiite0 -
Is he even Irish?0
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Freedom for your group (who only number a minority out of Egypt's near 80 million) to impose restrictions on freedom? That's not fighting for freedom, that's called fighting for power and control.The point is simple. You may not think freedom is is worth fighting for (regardless of which political party you choose to align with) but others do think it's worth fighting for. You might remember that the first time you are old enough to vote.
Freedom? Do you even know who the Muslim Brotherhood are and what they stand for?
Incidentally, I am old enough to vote but that's neither here nor there.
Will they?If that is the case, then neither can the other side, who have purposefully made a political solution impossible. I hope the supporters of the military know what they have let themselves in for, because once there done with the Brotherhood, they will happily go after the secular parties etc, if they step out of line.
Did you forget the mass protest on June 30th and the whole year's worth of growing resentment that led up to their removal from power? There's nothing whatsoever to suggest the military will take it upon themselves to remove people from power.0 -
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partyatmygaff wrote: »The number of Shia Muslims in Egypt is tiny. Insignificant really.
So they don't count right?0 -
I have no more sympathy for these four Islamic nutjobs than I would have for the small number of Irishmen who joined the Waffen SS and fought for Hitler.
The Muslim Brotherhood has the same ideology as Al-Qaeda and Hamas and their aim is to establish a Global Islamic Caliphate.
Halawa and his gang in Clonskeagh should be booted out of Ireland right away.0 -
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Can anybody link to the original stories of the " trapped teens " ?
If I recall correctly, the initial stories were that the teenage Irish holidaymakers were holidaymaking, then missed their train, had no way of getting home, they had no idea about the curfew, and then for their safety they took refuge in the mosque.
Here is one of the first stories;
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/we-just-want-to-go-home-irish-citizen-trapped-in-cairo-29506614.html
" Speaking to the Irish Independent this morning, the children’s father, Sheikh Hussein Halawa said they had have no food or water, and fear for their safety.
The family went to Egypt for a holiday at the start of the summer along with their mother, while their father stayed at home. Sheikh Hussein Halawa, Imam of the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland, in Clonskeagh, South Dublin, is one of Ireland's most prominent Muslim leaders.
“They had to enter the al-Fath Mosque for security. They thought the curfew was starting at 9pm. They didn’t realise it was 7pm,” their father said earlier this morning.
“When they got to the underground, it was closed and so they had go back to the mosque for security. "
I am not sure that I am completely convinced about the Halawa family's ignorance of the curfew, as the Irish Times reports that they had been involved in week longs sit in protests in another area;
The Irish Times has an interesting article here;
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/halawa-siblings-to-meet-egyptian-prosecutor-1.1498114?page=2
" The Halawas had also taken part in the weeks-long sit-in at Rabaa al-Adawiya, one of two encampments broken up by security forces last week with the loss of more than 600 lives. “They went to Rabaa to witness and record with pictures and video so that people can see that there are no terrorists among the protesters as the Egyptian authorities are claiming,” said their father, Sheikh Hussein Halawa.
Two weeks ago the Halawas’ sister Nosayba posted a video on YouTube showing her siblings address the Rabaa crowd against a banner reading “Egyptians Abroad for Democracy”.
In a July 28th Facebook post, Omaima wrote: “I’m still and will be until our democracy is back, until our religion is no longer attacked . . . because we only fear Allah not bullets.”
In the days after the violent dispersal of the Rabaa protest she posted numerous photographs of the dead and wounded, writing: “This was the place I met the most amazing people, this was the place that truly made me proud to be an Egyptian . . . because people’s hearts there are only for the sake of Allah then every single place in Egypt will be Rabaa.”
The youtube page for Nosayba Halawa is here
http://www.youtube.com/user/nosaybahalawa?feature=watch
The Irish Times article states that Nosayba Halawa uploaded video of her siblings addressing address the Rabaa crowd against a banner reading “Egyptians Abroad for Democracy” to Youtube. But this video is now proving hard to find on Youtube.
I am wondering if it has been removed.
If so, WHO deleted it ? And if so WHY ?
Ms Halawa's YouTube page contains other videos of protests in Ireland that were uploaded 2 years ago.0 -
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partyatmygaff wrote: »Will they?
Yes, they probably will. Why are you forgetting the completely unncessary escalation that military chose to do? 100s are dead, because they opposed them. Do you think for a second that secularists etc will be spared if they oppose the military junta in the future?partyatmygaff wrote: »Did you forget the mass protest on June 30th and the whole year's worth of growing resentment that led up to their removal from power?
You actually believe the military give a crap about what the guy on the street thinks? They saw a opportunity to return to power and took it.partyatmygaff wrote: »There's nothing whatsoever to suggest the military will take it upon themselves to remove people from power.
Except the fact that they ignored a political solution to the crisis, and decided to start killing people. So hardly nothing, now is it. Still amazing that you have refused to acknowledge this fact in any meaningful way.0 -
"They probably will" except in the past they didn't.Yes, they probably will. Why are you forgetting the completely unncessary escalation that military chose to do? 100s are dead, because they opposed them. Do you think for a second that secularists etc will be spared if they oppose the military junta in the future?
*cough* handing over power to the Muslim Brotherhood in 2012 *cough*
The military stepped in to remove Morsi on foot of the protests and even then it was only because he ignored the protests and acted as if nothing of any significance was going on. You make it sound as if nothing happened and they decided to overthrow the government and take power against the people's will.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back up that opinion so you'll forgive me if I don't engage with it.You actually believe the military give a crap about what the guy on the street thinks? They saw a opportunity to return to power and took.
Calling it a solution is a bit much.Except the fact that they ignored a political solution to the crisis, and decided to start killing people. So hardly nothing, now is it. Still amazing that you have refused to acknowledge this fact in any meaningful way.0 -
partyatmygaff wrote: »"They probably will" except in the past they didn't.
*cough* handing over power to the Muslim Brotherhood in 2012 *cough*
Then using the first opportunity to take it back a year later, using bloody violence.partyatmygaff wrote: »The military stepped in to remove Morsi on foot of the protests and even then it was only because he ignored the protests and acted as if nothing of any significance was going on. You make it sound as if nothing happened and they decided to overthrow the government and take power against the people's will.
No, I said they used it as an excuse, and that appears to be the case.partyatmygaff wrote: »There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back up that opinion so you'll forgive me if I don't engage with it.
All the dead bodies, are plenty of evidence, that you choose to ignore, so that you can make out the military as acting on the will of the people. Must have missed the bit, where they called for killing of protesters.....partyatmygaff wrote: »Calling it a solution is a bit much.
Far better than shooting people in the streets, which is the militarys solution, something you just can't seem to acknowledge as being a bad idea for some strange reason.0 -
justanotherone wrote: »It appears, she and her siblings, have been putting themselves in harms way since early July. She is doing it for her country.
From her Facebook post on the 8th of July, one would probably have to assume her country is Eygpt ?
Currently her country and diplomats are Irish. What changed since 8th of July. ?
The concept of dual nationalities is hardly an unknown concept. You can be both an Egyptian and Irish citizen, why this concept is so strange to you is rather bizarre.
Still yet to see what exactly is wrong with protesting. Seems to me that shooting people in the streets, is ok for some, but protesting is beyond the pale.0 -
Deary me, it looks like you think June 30th was the first Anti-MB protest. If they were waiting for the first opportunity, he wouldn't have lasted a year.Then using the first opportunity to take it back a year later, using bloody violence.
The will of a few million citizens is an excuse now?No, I said they used it as an excuse, and that appears to be the case.
Just repeatedly saying i'm ignoring it (which is getting very childish and annoying) doesn't mean I am.All the dead bodies, are plenty of evidence, that you choose to ignore, so that you can make out the military as acting on the will of the people. Must have missed the bit, where they called for killing of protesters.....
The military acted on foot of the mass protests which themselves were the manifestation of the growing public resentment for the Muslim Brotherhood (the saying in Egypt the past year was "I wish i'd lost my hand before I voted for the Brotherhood")
Better than violence it may be but that does not make it a "solution" as it wouldn't actually have achieved anything. You make it sound as if it would sort everything out and normalise things but in reality it would hardly change the situation.Far better than shooting people in the streets, which is the militarys solution, something you just can't seem to acknowledge as being a bad idea for some strange reason.
As for acknowledging that violence is a bad idea, I've done so tens of times. You seem to have nothing else to say save for repeating "SO YOU THINK VIOLENCE IS THE SOLUTION? YEAH? YEAH? YOU DO RIGHT? YOU NASTY HORRIBLE EVIL SCUMBAG!!!!!111!!" as if opposing the Muslim Brotherhood somehow means endorsing violence.0 -
partyatmygaff wrote: »Deary me, it looks like you think June 30th was the first Anti-MB protest. If they were waiting for the first opportunity, he wouldn't have lasted a year.
The earlier protests weren't quite the same sizes as the later ones, as you well know.partyatmygaff wrote: »The will of a few million citizens is an excuse now?
For the military yes it was, and the have taken advantage it, even get Mubarak off on some of his charges.partyatmygaff wrote: »Just repeatedly saying i'm ignoring it (which is getting very childish and annoying) doesn't mean I am.
You keep ignoring what the military has done whenever convenient.partyatmygaff wrote: »The military acted on foot of the mass protests which themselves were the manifestation of the growing public resentment for the Muslim Brotherhood (the saying in Egypt the past year was "I wish i'd lost my hand before I voted for the Brotherhood")
Yes, I am well aware of the junta's narrative, and there current actions have made sure that there will be no democratic transition and probable constant state of emergency, the exact same thing they did under Mubarak.partyatmygaff wrote: »Better than violence it may be but that does not make it a "solution" as it wouldn't actually have achieved anything. You make it sound as if it would sort everything out and normalise things but in reality it would hardly change the situation.
So, taking a political solution off the table as the military has done, was the answer then? Avoiding the current violence, would have been a 100 times better than the current situation, and trying to downplay what was on offer doesn't make the decision to escalate thing violently any better.partyatmygaff wrote: »As for acknowledging that violence is a bad idea, I've done so tens of times. You seem to have nothing else to say save for repeating "SO YOU THINK VIOLENCE IS THE SOLUTION? YEAH? YEAH? YOU DO RIGHT? YOU NASTY HORRIBLE EVIL SCUMBAG!!!!!111!!" as if opposing the Muslim Brotherhood somehow means endorsing violence.
Supporting the military coup at this point is supporting violence. You can oppose the Brotherhood, and be against a violent coup. You clearly support the coup. So how exactly can you say you aren't supporting the violence, when you support the coup that is perpetrating it?
Mohamed El Baraedi, took the principled position of resigning (he now faces a court case, in the military junta's wonderful soon to be any day now, democracy), when the coup went violent, and he can hardly been seen as a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood.0 -
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justanotherone wrote: »Incidentally, the 17 year old lad, Ibrahim, or Ebraheem to give him his correct name.
He has 7 likes, one of which is Hudhaifa's Legacy, a facebook page dedicated to the Dublin jihadist / shaheed / martyr Hudhaifa Elsayed
Wow, he liked the page, news at 11. He should clearly be locked up forever and ever.justanotherone wrote: »I
His groups are " Muslim Youth Ireland (MY Ireland) " and Islam Q&A Ireland
Muslim Youth Ireland (MY Ireland) are the organisers of the protest at Dublin's Egyptian Embassy.
The aims of Muslim Youth Ireland include : " The youth of Islam have always been the biggest and most precious asset of Islam and at the forefront of the Dawaah and The Struggle for more than 14 centuries. In Ireland there is a vacuum of desire in fulfilling their potential. "
Dawaah is spreading Islam and converting unbelievers.
Oh no, a Religion looking to convert people. That is a totally unique thing, that has never happened ever in the whole world, and no other group has ever done that before.justanotherone wrote: »I believe the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt were doing their Dawaah, were they not ?
Ah, so now trying to associate that group with the Brotherhood.
I really do wonder what you have against this kid, when you trawling facebook likes and what not. I take it you support imprisoning people for protesting then.0
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