Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

Slobbery

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Its not really an advantage though when you think about it. Still a 15 versus 15 game plus subs. Its not like they were on performance enhancing steroids or something. They only fielded a young lad where based on the 1st January rule would have been 17 this coming year anyway

So the team that wins the All Ireland should be allowed to play under different rules to every one else in the competition? Ya that makes sense... Ballysaggert have very good players that age as well but didn't play them as the stuck to the rules.

The thing is Creggan f*cked up the championship by playing illegal players in the championship. Every club in the country putting out teams knows this rule, they were stupid to flaunt it, they don't deserve a replay and the final should be between ballysaggert and the team the creggan beat in the semi final

It's nothing to do with Ballysaggart, Creggan were stupid - if they did what every properly run GAA club in the country does and stick to the rules they wouldn't have a problem would they? It's all there own fault, can't be blaming anyone else for a lack of sportsmanship or sour grapes

sid wallace

Is Midget Roche the first Mount Sion man to win a Fitzgibbon or did Shiner win one?

Dickys Back Garden

sid wallace wrote: »

Is Midget Roche the first Mount Sion man to win a Fitzgibbon or did Shiner win one?

No. Paraic Fanning captained them in 1992, Brian Flannery I'm sure has one and there have been a few panelists on winning teams I think in more recent years-Michael Frisby, maybe Tonto Farrell. Shiner never won one.

Twiceasnice97

Slobbery wrote: »

So the team that wins the All Ireland should be allowed to play under different rules to every one else in the competition? Ya that makes sense... Ballysaggert have very good players that age as well but didn't play them as the stuck to the rules.

The thing is Creggan f*cked up the championship by playing illegal players in the championship. Every club in the country putting out teams knows this rule, they were stupid to flaunt it, they don't deserve a replay and the final should be between ballysaggert and the team the creggan beat in the semi final

It's nothing to do with Ballysaggart, Creggan were stupid - if they did what every properly run GAA club in the country does and stick to the rules they wouldn't have a problem would they? It's all there own fault, can't be blaming anyone else for a lack of sportsmanship or sour grapes

is it certain that they broke a rule. they did not use the players in 2013 when they were under 16s, they only used them as under 17s in 2014 in what could be argued was a separate competition.
i am not saying this is the case i am just saying that there is a case to be argued rather than it being cut and dried.

there is no doubt in my mind that there was no deliberate attempt to cheat. if it proves to be the case that they are ineligeble it strikes me as an honest mistake

Twiceasnice97

robopaddy wrote: »

Im sure if there was a top player of note down there wit wouldnt be long snuffing him out...

thats a bit drastic isn`t it?:p

Mountainlad

sid wallace wrote: »

Justin took a dislike to Iggy after he got caught out and was blocked down by John O Brien going back across his own goal in a Munster club final against Toomevarra and gave away a goal that cost Mount Sion the title. That finished him on the county scene for about 5 years. Soky is the better shot stopper now but Iggy is the safer pair of hands. I think Soky needs a bit of genuine competition to keep focused but that may ultimately come from Seanie Barry who is probably the best of the three.

Was there, thought it hurt his confidence a bit. I still think O Regan is pretty unproven at inter county level. O'Keeffe has been very impressive though there is no margin for error as a goalkeeper and so he has to try and eradicate any mistakes under the high ball.

Slobbery

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

is it certain that they broke a rule. they did not use the players in 2013 when they were under 16s, they only used them as under 17s in 2014 in what could be argued was a separate competition.
i am not saying this is the case i am just saying that there is a case to be argued rather than it being cut and dried.

there is no doubt in my mind that there was no deliberate attempt to cheat. if it proves to be the case that they are ineligeble it strikes me as an honest mistake

According to rule 6.16, a player must be over 16 years to play an adult game. It also states to be “over” 16 the player’s 16th birthday must fall prior to January 1 of the championship year.

Under 16 is defined as a player celebrating their 16th birthday on January 1 of the championship year or on a later date. It was reported the Antrim player was still sixteen so he was than 15 on January the first 2013 - making him unavailable for their campaign from start to finish

Basically it is the conclusion of the 2013 championship even though it finishes in the 2014 calendar year, the same rules should apply to the all Ireland as to the first round of the 2013 county championships -

Slobbery

Would Adrian power be getting a run now if he wasn't abroad? Wasn't it issues with scully that saw him leave the panel as opposed to hurling reasons

Deise_2012

SOK is the best keeper in the county hands down. I've never seen him perform badly in a championship game and Clinton was near enough to us for the Tipp game and he said it's better to get all the mistakes outta the way in Feb/ March than it happening to June! It's a wake up call. No way his position should be up for debate.

pmy.murphy

Slobbery wrote: »

So the team that wins the All Ireland should be allowed to play under different rules to every one else in the competition? Ya that makes sense... Ballysaggert have very good players that age as well but didn't play them as the stuck to the rules.

The thing is Creggan f*cked up the championship by playing illegal players in the championship. Every club in the country putting out teams knows this rule, they were stupid to flaunt it, they don't deserve a replay and the final should be between ballysaggert and the team the creggan beat in the semi final

It's nothing to do with Ballysaggart, Creggan were stupid - if they did what every properly run GAA club in the country does and stick to the rules they wouldn't have a problem would they? It's all there own fault, can't be blaming anyone else for a lack of sportsmanship or sour grapes

The truth is its only a mickey mouse bull**** rule which is only in place to prevent burnout of players. And under the 1st January rule the young lad was more than obliged to play because as of 2014 he was out of the u16 grade and would be turning 17 this coming year hence making him eligible for adult hurling. Creggan surely thought of that when playing him, sure he played no part in their county final or ulster championship campaign

revisionist

pmy.murphy wrote: »

The truth is its only a mickey mouse bull**** rule which is only in place to prevent burnout of players. And under the 1st January rule the young lad was more than obliged to play because as of 2014 he was out of the u16 grade and would be turning 17 this coming year hence making him eligible for adult hurling. Creggan surely thought of that when playing him, sure he played no part in their county final or ulster championship campaign

?
How much are you missing the point? Rules are rules and are the basis for entering and competing. If you break them then you face consequences. This attitude is sadly typical nowadays ......You are surmising what creggan thought and applying a flawed interpretation to the rules. The rule is in place to stop clubs from fielding children in what is an adult competition not to prevent burnout ....

seananigans

revisionist wrote: »

?
How much are you missing the point? Rules are rules and are the basis for entering and competing. If you break them then you face consequences. This attitude is sadly typical nowadays ......You are surmising what creggan thought and applying a flawed interpretation to the rules. The rule is in place to stop clubs from fielding children in what is an adult competition not to prevent burnout ....

Where do you decide what rules to follow and which ones to ignore, there are no mickey mouse rules , they all have equal standing . break the rules pay the price don't like the roles don't play the game . is our harsh yes, is our fair also yes

Slobbery

The rules are the rules for everyone - you can't just pick and choose them, train an U12 team in the morning and tell them to ignore every rule you think is a Mickey Mouse one and see how far it gets you.
It doesn't matter what you or me or anyone else thinks of a rule if you play Gaa you got to live by them.

The same people would be giving out when a promising player gets burnt out. This rule is there to protect them against that

Brad1234

Seanie Barry is a good keeper coming through but is not at the other twos level yet in my opinion.. Having seen him in close quarters Barry is good at everything but not exceptional.. Problem with SOK is his mind drifts and he finds it to easy at times which is when he needs a rocket.. I wouldn't be to worried about an error around now as it usually the kick of the arse he needs..

Barry i feel for a keeper his footwork is quiet heavy legged and to incorporate that with a left handed Hurler it really isn't a great mix unless he works hard at both aspects.. If i was playing against him id target low to his left all day and i think you'll have joy from experience.. But it isn't insurmountable... He should be in the squad and been worked on like SOK and Iggy as again Sok needs competition or his standards slip.

avonmore

Brad1234 wrote: »

Seanie Barry is a good keeper coming through but is not at the other twos level yet in my opinion.. Having seen him in close quarters Barry is good at everything but not exceptional.. Problem with SOK is his mind drifts and he finds it to easy at times which is when he needs a rocket.. I wouldn't be to worried about an error around now as it usually the kick of the arse he needs..

Barry i feel for a keeper his footwork is quiet heavy legged and to incorporate that with a left handed Hurler it really isn't a great mix unless he works hard at both aspects.. If i was playing against him id target low to his left all day and i think you'll have joy from experience.. But it isn't insurmountable... He should be in the squad and been worked on like SOK and Iggy as again Sok needs competition or his standards slip.

I'm not that sure that it's down to Soky's mind drifting. He is an unbelievable shot stopper, probably up there with the best ever and his reflexes are incredible.

However, I think his decision making is suspect when a ball is dropping into the square in that area between the full back and himself. It's happened a bit too often at this stage for it to be a lapse in concentration. It happened again last Friday against LIT when a bread and butter ball that he should have dealt with, again, went straight into the net. He definitely needs to work on this aspect of his game.

If it was lapses in concentration or his mind drifting during matches you would see it in other areas of his game, but, I have never seen his shot stopping or his alertness to make himself available for a pass when his backs are under pressure or indeed his intelligent use of the ball, to fall below the highest standards.

The thing about Soky is that for all his innate brilliance, I'm not too sure that he has the work ethic to improve his game. He has had all his great qualities, but, unfortunately, this same problem in his game since he was on the Forristal team at U14.

The key could well be in what you say, that most of the basics come too easily to him. The question is, can he knuckle down and do the work to improve.
If you want to succeed at the highest level in any sport, no matter how brilliant your basic skills are, you have to continually work at your game

He hasn't shown so far that he is capable of doing this. It's a pity because, if he doesn't knuckle down, this issue will haunt him. Every mistake you make at the highest level is under the microscope and oppositions target it.

Overall though, He is still our best option at the moment.

flatty

If I understand things correctly, because the ballysaggart appeal was late, the only possible outcome now, if it is decided that creggan should be stripped of the title, is that no winner will be declared. There will be no replay, and ballysaggart will not be awarded the title.
I heard that creggan had actually asked for a ruling on the players before playing them, and were given the go ahead, but I have no independent verification of this. Whatever happens, it is a sad end to the championship if creggan are stripped of it and it is "unawarded". Ballysaggart were quick to dismiss them as a bunch of footballers and blame the referee as being from a non hurling county. They are obviously very upset at being beaten by a 16 year old footballer. From what I hear, the team creggan beat in the semifinal cannot be throwing stones either.

Slobbery

flatty wrote: »

If I understand things correctly, because the ballysaggart appeal was late, the only possible outcome now, if it is decided that creggan should be stripped of the title, is that no winner will be declared. There will be no replay, and ballysaggart will not be awarded the title.
I heard that creggan had actually asked for a ruling on the players before playing them, and were given the go ahead, but I have no independent verification of this. Whatever happens, it is a sad end to the championship if creggan are stripped of it and it is "unawarded". Ballysaggart were quick to dismiss them as a bunch of footballers and blame the referee as being from a non hurling county. They are obviously very upset at being beaten by a 16 year old footballer. From what I hear, the team creggan beat in the semifinal cannot be throwing stones either.

Why what did you hear? If you have an allegation to make stand over it and do t just come on and insinuate it

Slobbery

flatty wrote: »

If I understand things correctly, because the ballysaggart appeal was late, the only possible outcome now, if it is decided that creggan should be stripped of the title, is that no winner will be declared. There will be no replay, and ballysaggart will not be awarded the title.
I heard that creggan had actually asked for a ruling on the players before playing them, and were given the go ahead, but I have no independent verification of this. Whatever happens, it is a sad end to the championship if creggan are stripped of it and it is "unawarded". Ballysaggart were quick to dismiss them as a bunch of footballers and blame the referee as being from a non hurling county. They are obviously very upset at being beaten by a 16 year old footballer. From what I hear, the team creggan beat in the semifinal cannot be throwing stones either.

I would agree with you there, coming off his line to deal with balls is a weakness in his game, maybe he isn't commanding enough I don't know but he seems to get caught in two minds a lot which means he is not confident in those situations - but he's he is our best option and of he irons out those flaws could be an exceptional goalie

flatty

Slobbery wrote: »

Why what did you hear? If you have an allegation to make stand over it and do t just come on and insinuate it

I'm not going to repeat what I have been told on here.

Slobbery

flatty wrote: »

I'm not going to repeat what I have been told on here.

Quote the thread where you heard it than...

Why would you even bring it up at all if you are not even prepared to repeat or stand over it?

That's poor form to be honest

cul beag

Does anyone see any changes for the Dublin game? McGrath will have to make a decision on the Fitzgibbon boys whether to start them or not? In all honesty alot of these have alot of hurling played and we're barely into march.

hardybuck

cul beag wrote: »

Does anyone see any changes for the Dublin game? McGrath will have to make a decision on the Fitzgibbon boys whether to start them or not? In all honesty alot of these have alot of hurling played and we're barely into march.

We might be better off playing them against Dublin and then resting them for the following game, depending on how the squad is fixed this weekend.

As an aside, a number of Dublin footballers were involved in the Sigerson Cup semis the weekend before last. They played Fri night with the colleges, league games with all of their clubs that Sunday morning, and then out again with the Dublin team on Saturday night against Cork.

Also, Cork football manager Brian Cuthbert is currently allowing any player outside of his first XV play league games with his club on the Saturday.

An awful lot of lads in county squads constantly train without ever playing any games. Have clubs in Waterford played any games yet at this stage?

cul beag

hardybuck wrote: »

We might be better off playing them against Dublin and then resting them for the following game, depending on how the squad is fixed this weekend.

As an aside, a number of Dublin footballers were involved in the Sigerson Cup semis the weekend before last. They played Fri night with the colleges, league games with all of their clubs that Sunday morning, and then out again with the Dublin team on Saturday night against Cork.

Also, Cork football manager Brian Cuthbert is currently allowing any player outside of his first XV play league games with his club on the Saturday.

An awful lot of lads in county squads constantly train without ever playing any games. Have clubs in Waterford played any games yet at this stage?

No games played yet here within the county. I think the first round of the club championship isn't on until may. Proper order on Brian Cuthbert's behalf because for yrs here in Waterford championship games were postponed because of involvement of different fringe players on county panels and as you said alot of players training at county level don't get to sample national league games and are therefore ring rusty by the time they get to go back with their clubs.

pmy.murphy

revisionist wrote: »

?
How much are you missing the point? Rules are rules and are the basis for entering and competing. If you break them then you face consequences. This attitude is sadly typical nowadays ......You are surmising what creggan thought and applying a flawed interpretation to the rules. The rule is in place to stop clubs from fielding children in what is an adult competition not to prevent burnout ....

I get what your saying in regards rules are rules but with this particular rule, there obviously seems to be some sort of loophole although the young lad was still 16 he was technically u17 for the coming year and eligible to play adult hurling even though the competition began in 2013. Perhaps Creggan chanced their arm at this but as it was said by another poster there, I dont think they intentionally set out to cheat. Its a very interesting case to say the least but I feel at this stage it is very unlikely Ballysaggart will get a replay which exposes this loophole for all to see

Slobbery

pmy.murphy wrote: »

I get what your saying in regards rules are rules but with this particular rule, there obviously seems to be some sort of loophole although the young lad was still 16 he was technically u17 for the coming year and eligible to play adult hurling even though the competition began in 2013. Perhaps Creggan chanced their arm at this but as it was said by another poster there, I dont think they intentionally set out to cheat. Its a very interesting case to say the least but I feel at this stage it is very unlikely Ballysaggart will get a replay which exposes this loophole for all to see

I don't see the loophole - let's say if an U-21 championship is not completed in a calender year (so 2013) (it has happened) and the competition is completed early the next year (2014) - all the players who would be overage for U-21 from January 2014 the first would still be allowed to complete the 2013 U-21 championship.

Well surely the exact opposite should also apply in this case

tomwaterford

your from creggan and played for them in semi-final unless ive the complete wrong end of the stick here

Slobbery

tomwaterford wrote: »

your from creggan and played for them in semi-final unless ive the complete wrong end of the stick here

What I mean is if an under 21 should be allowed play in the instance I describe than the underage creggan players should not be allowed play - how can a player become available in the closing stages of a championship? It doesnt make any sense - if that was the case Ballysaggart would have been allowed play the entire St carthages U-15 team from last year if they wanted - As the lismore/Ballysaggart underage entity is technically separate from the adult clubs these young players can declare for either adult team when they so choose - so the people that say Creggan did nothing wrong well Ballysaggart could have gained a lot of players by bending the same rule - including a few young lads from lismore seduced by a day out in Croke park.

Unlikely maybe but if you don't bother with the underage rule than there was nothing to stop it

Horseboxhead

Am i the only one here that's sick to death of the flogging that the Ballysaggert v Creggan story is getting?. Jesus pages and pages of muck, and half of it is sincere and half of it is muck raking rubbish only put up to get a response, which is proving very easy , in this case, I am not the thread police, but if there is a valid bit of news or even an opinion that has maybe not been expressed on this issue[as i have had my go] well then feel free, but all this conjecture bull**** is breaking my head, its as tedious as the the johns ****e now, let it go, they will either get the game or not, creggan will either still be the winners or not, now move on . Anyone interested in whats happening in waterford gaa circles outside of this noise, would be a tonic.

Slobbery

Horseboxhead wrote: »

Am i the only one here that's sick to death of the flogging that the Ballysaggert v Creggan story is getting?. Jesus pages and pages of muck, and half of it is sincere and half of it is muck raking rubbish only put up to get a response, which is proving very easy , in this case, I am not the thread police, but if there is a valid bit of news or even an opinion that has maybe not been expressed on this issue[as i have had my go] well then feel free, but all this conjecture bull**** is breaking my head, its as tedious as the the johns ****e now, let it go, they will either get the game or not, creggan will either still be the winners or not, now move on . Anyone interested in whats happening in waterford gaa circles outside of this noise, would be a tonic.

You are saying that you have no interest in hurling outside the county team?
People interested in hurling are entitled to talk about it

It's a significant story within Waterford hurling circles yet to be resolved, of course there is going to be some speculation

Brad1234

Of Course but it has been dragged to death here and I'm also well sick of it cause we're gonna have to listen to the aftermath of the decision also from people with agendas on both sides..

Saggart have had their moment move on.. Waterford team is the only newsworthy story at the moment as the club scene wont really kick off till April/May so of course thats what most people want to talk about.


Good win the weekend now will set us up for the rest of the league and possibly qualification!