What DO you think

starling

clairefontaine wrote: »

Um I need someone to break it down. The thread has move from a date with ONE man who has used prostitutes, to men who disrespect women, to rapists.

When you use the term rapist, do you mean serial rapists or do you mean a guy with one rape conviction in his history or are both "rapists"? This is a real question as to how are essentialing a persons identity here and summarising that "rapists don't respect women." I'm unclear with the assumptions built into that label.

I mean people who commit the act of rape.

meeeeh

I was only asking if it mattered if it was once off and was just for fun, no need for it and possible non paying alternatives were available. The scenario you referenced was a very specific scenario of a person who was having no luck with women and from the sounds of it didn't enjoy it so probably regretted it. I was just seeking clarification to if it is only people who compulsively seek out the company of prostitutes that's a no no for you or if it's anybody who sought the company of a prostitute and didn't need to and or regretted it later? Your friends with benefits comment implied it's not just those who do it compulsively so seeking clarification.

It's exactly as I wrote before. I don't trust or respect people who pay for sex because it's an easy option. Oh I also don't date women. That's how shockingly narrow minded I am.

I will make a few point and then leave it I think, This has noting to do with drugs, porn, ons or any adult sexual encounter that does not involve. payment.

It is not about judgement.

The point I was making

The very ACT of paying changes the encounter.

The development of the belief that some men have ,i.e. that men always pay.

How people can be for something in a kind of I am for it way, but its nothing to do with me personally it is nothing to do with the men in my life nothing to do with my father, or my bothers or my partner. Its all to do with some sort of vague other place.

The thread went all over the place as they often do.

By he way Tiddlypeeps it very possible to disrespect women in one situation( prostitutes and perhaps woman who are considered easy ) and have the height of respect for them in another ( your partner, mother, sisters ) i.e dividing the world in to "good" and not so good women, I am not saying you think like that just saying.

MaxWig

clairefontaine wrote: »

Porn is prostitution. The producers are paying people to have real sex and be filmed.

Total fluke in the law that its not illegal to produce it prostitution is illegal.

Way off.
It's nothing of the sort.

"Where you have serious prohibitions on female sexuality, you are going to create a black market for prostitution. That's just how prohibition works. I'd prefer prostitutes, with safe contracts and agreements, then a free for all on kids and whomever is available. Prostitution is not ideal either, but that's the world we live in."

Claire, that is some daft commentary. These comments inevitably find their way into these discussions. What prostitution has to do with stemming child sexual abuse or the rape of women, which seem to be what your comments connote, is beyond me.

ash23

Maglietta wrote: »

Tiddlypeeps makes a good point. If someone raped a tall person would can you really say they don't respect tall people or if they raped a Swedish person that they don't respect Swedish people.

Someone who rapes is simply a vile human being.

It's not as simple as that. The "reasons" for rape are many and varied. Some rapists would only rape their wife and not another woman because they have a sense of entitlement from their wife. That shows a lack of respect for a woman they are married to, not a specific woman. It shows a skewed logic and lack of respect for women as the husbands desire trumphs the wifes.

Another rapist might be a serial rapist and any woman is fair game. It could be about control and fear. Again, it shows a lack of respect for women as they don't care who they rape once they satisfy themselves. So yes, lack of respect for women.

Some high profile cases have happened where a gang rape has occurred. A group of guys passing a girl around for their own pleasure. That shows a clear lack of respect for women.

You can't really say that raping someone is only a slight to that specific person. When that specific person could have been any woman who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time or happened to pass out drunk at a party.
You can't say that a husband raping his wife means he respects other women when he classes his wife as someone to be used against her will for her own pleasure. It's the mentality behind rape that means a man doesn't respect women in general.

He might love his mammy and be the best father in the world to his daughters. He might be the best brother to his sisters and a doting nephew to his aunties. But behind it all, he still thinks his sexual needs are more important than what the woman he rapes actually wants or consents to.
And that shows a lack of respect for the rights of women as an entity.

As for punching an Asian....if it was because they were Asian, then yes, it would indicate you hate Asians. If it was because he was there and you wanted a fight then no, it wouldn't be because he was Asian, it would be because you're a thug.

If a man is going around raping men and women then he has no respect for anyone. If he's raping women, then he has no respect for women.

MaxWig

ash23 wrote: »

It's not as simple as that. The "reasons" for rape are many and varied. Some rapists would only rape their wife and not another woman because they have a sense of entitlement from their wife. That shows a lack of respect for a woman they are married to, not a specific woman. It shows a skewed logic and lack of respect for women as the husbands desire trumphs the wifes.

Another rapist might be a serial rapist and any woman is fair game. It could be about control and fear. Again, it shows a lack of respect for women as they don't care who they rape once they satisfy themselves. So yes, lack of respect for women.

Some high profile cases have happened where a gang rape has occurred. A group of guys passing a girl around for their own pleasure. That shows a clear lack of respect for women.

You can't really say that raping someone is only a slight to that specific person. When that specific person could have been any woman who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time or happened to pass out drunk at a party.
You can't say that a husband raping his wife means he respects other women when he classes his wife as someone to be used against her will for her own pleasure. It's the mentality behind rape that means a man doesn't respect women in general.

He might love his mammy and be the best father in the world to his daughters. He might be the best brother to his sisters and a doting nephew to his aunties. But behind it all, he still thinks his sexual needs are more important than what the woman he rapes actually wants or consents to.
And that shows a lack of respect for the rights of women as an entity.

As for punching an Asian....if it was because they were Asian, then yes, it would indicate you hate Asians. If it was because he was there and you wanted a fight then no, it wouldn't be because he was Asian, it would be because you're a thug.

If a man is going around raping men and women then he has no respect for anyone. If he's raping women, then he has no respect for women.

I'm a little confused by this conversation.

Is rape now just at one end of the Respect Spectrum? or the Respectrum as I like to call it

Like, at one end you encourage equality, help, support and adore women, and at the other end you rape them?

It's an interesting perspective, I'll give you that.

starling

MaxWig wrote: »

I'm a little confused by this conversation.

Is rape now just at one end of the Respect Spectrum? or the Respectrum as I like to call it

Like, at one end you encourage equality, help, support and adore women, and at the other end you rape them?

It's an interesting perspective, I'll give you that.

I'm honestly not seeing why anyone would have difficulty with this concept. Part of respecting women is not raping them. I would have thought that was obvious.

ash23

MaxWig wrote: »

I'm a little confused by this conversation.

Is rape now just at one end of the Respect Spectrum? or the Respectrum as I like to call it

Like, at one end you encourage equality, help, support and adore women, and at the other end you rape them?

It's an interesting perspective, I'll give you that.

No need to be patronising. I did acknowledge that a rapist may respect SOME women, but overall his needs trumph a womans need for safety and security and being treated with dignity so therefore, overall, he wouldn't have much respect for women.

If you think a man who can force a woman to have sex against her will, respects women as a gender......well good luck with that. You are joking and jeering about something which is horrific and soul destroying for women, something that ruins their lives.

But by all means, make a joke out of it and somehow try to equate a man who can do that to women as someone who also has respect for women. The fact that you can even equate the two (rape and respect for women) is actually disturbing.

If you can imagine snatching a woman off the street, holding her down against her will and raping her, knowing you are invading her and damaging her body and mind just so you can climax and think that you don't think less of women then you've an "interesting perspective".

MaxWig

ash23 wrote: »

No need to be patronising. I did acknowledge that a rapist may respect SOME women, but overall his needs trumph a womans need for safety and security and being treated with dignity so therefore, overall, he wouldn't have much respect for women.

If you think a man who can force a woman to have sex against her will, respects women as a gender......well good luck with that. You are joking and jeering about something which is horrific and soul destroying for women, something that ruins their lives.

But by all means, make a joke out of it and somehow try to equate a man who can do that to women as someone who also has respect for women. The fact that you can even equate the two (rape and respect for women) is actually disturbing.

If you can imagine snatching a woman off the street, holding her down against her will and raping her, knowing you are invading her and damaging her body and mind just so you can climax and think that you don't think less of women then you've an "interesting perspective".

Aw, you made me feel bad now - sad face

I didn't mean to patronise.

My point was that rape is disgusting for many reasons, and that perhaps the inherent lack of respect is the least of our worries.

For instance the murder victim is to be pitied for many reasons, but the fact that the murderer didn't respect him is down the list - just a little.

I think there's a rigid stupidity that creeps into these discussions, and simplifies them to the point of absurdity. We get more calls for Respect training at schools, and education about women's rights.

Something very wrong has happened in the development of a rapist's life. It might be that they missed the class on Respecting Women, but I suspect it was something more.

ash23

MaxWig wrote: »

Aw, you made me feel bad now - sad face

I didn't mean to patronise.

My point was that rape is disgusting for many reasons, and that perhaps the inherent lack of respect is the least of our worries.

For instance the murder victim is to be pitied for many reasons, but the fact that the murderer didn't respect him is down the list - just a little.

I think there's a rigid stupidity that creeps into these discussions, and simplifies them to the point of absurdity. We get more calls for Respect training at schools, and education about women's rights.

Something very wrong has happened in the development of a rapist's life. It might be that they missed the class on Respecting Women, but I suspect it was something more.

In some cases yes, it's an upbringing thing. But in other cases which are probably some of the most worrying, it's a total lack of respect for women.

Those football jocks in the US, who repeatedly gang raped a drunk girl at a party, who shared videos where they spoke about her in the most degrading ways.......all of those kids were from good families, went to a good school. They were popular and well looked after. But they had the mentality that they could take what they wanted. A sense of entitlement.

For years rape was covered up and the woman blamed. Even in recent times a woman was jailed in Dubai for being raped. Not too many years ago Irish women were put into homes for being raped because they were no longer worthy of being married.

That view is no longer PC but it's still there, underlying and usually comes out when like minded men convene.
You only have to read AH to see how degrading some men are about women.

And no it's not every man and yes, the tide is changing. But we live in a country where a guy who was convicted of rape had a stream of people patting him on the back and shaking his hand. I have a daughter and I'm terrified for her when I hear the way some young men speak about women.

starling

MaxWig wrote: »

Aw, you made me feel bad now - sad face

I didn't mean to patronise.

My point was that rape is disgusting for many reasons, and that perhaps the inherent lack of respect is the least of our worries.

For instance the murder victim is to be pitied for many reasons, but the fact that the murderer didn't respect him is down the list - just a little.

I think there's a rigid stupidity that creeps into these discussions, and simplifies them to the point of absurdity. We get more calls for Respect training at schools, and education about women's rights.

Something very wrong has happened in the development of a rapist's life. It might be that they missed the class on Respecting Women, but I suspect it was something more.

Don't equate rape with murder. There are men walking around who have raped before, but would never dream of murdering anyone and would condemn murder from a height. But they don't think what they've done is that bad and they probably consider themselves to be decent human beings. They'll excuse it to themselves by rationalising like "she didn't say no" or "she was dancing all sexy with me, obviously she wanted it".

Lack of respect for women as human beings is fundamental to the capacity for rape. I'm not sure how much you actuall know about this, but your "stupidity" claim is ignorant and insulting.

MaxWig

starling wrote: »

Don't equate rape with murder. There are men walking around who have raped before, but would never dream of murdering anyone and would condemn murder from a height. But they don't think what they've done is that bad and they probably consider themselves to be decent human beings. They'll excuse it to themselves by rationalising like "she didn't say no" or "she was dancing all sexy with me, obviously she wanted it".

Lack of respect for women as human beings is fundamental to the capacity for rape. I'm not sure how much you actuall know about this, but your "stupidity" claim is ignorant and insulting.

I'm not equating murder with rape.

I equating the inherent lack of respect in each instance, and pointing out that they are not the salient issues.

starling

MaxWig wrote: »

I'm not equating murder with rape.

I equating the inherent lack of respect in each instance, and pointing out that they are not the salient issues.

It's still a false analogy. In order to be capable of rape you must have a lack of respect for women. Without that lack of respect you would not be capable of raping someone.

MaxWig

starling wrote: »

Lack of respect for women as human beings is fundamental to the capacity for rape. I'm not sure how much you actuall know about this, but your "stupidity" claim is ignorant and insulting.

Or, to put it another way, Lack of respect for people as human beings is fundamental to the capacity for all crime.

I'm just not sure how helpful that information is.

Tiddlypeeps

starling wrote: »

Apology accepted:)
But you don't need to break it down for us. Rapists don't respect women. People who respect other people don't rape them.

Obviously I do need to break it down if you keep dodging my question. Sure people who have respect for others don't disrespect them, but that act of disrespecting them implies nothing about the level of respect they have for any category you care to label the disrespected person with.

mariaalice wrote: »

By he way Tiddlypeeps it very possible to disrespect women in one situation( prostitutes and perhaps woman who are considered easy ) and have the height of respect for them in another ( your partner, mother, sisters ) i.e dividing the world in to "good" and not so good women, I am not saying you think like that just saying.

What you are getting at there kind of makes my point, if a person disrespects some women and not others then it's obviously not the being a woman bit that is causing the disrespect.

MaxWig wrote: »

Way off.
It's nothing of the sort.

Claire, that is some daft commentary. These comments inevitably find their way into these discussions. What prostitution has to do with stemming child sexual abuse or the rape of women, which seem to be what your comments connote, is beyond me.

Porn is way off prostitution? Could you explain your reasoning behind that?

Second time in this thread someone has tried to use "that's stupid" as an argument. Not a good argument.

ash23 wrote: »

If you can imagine snatching a woman off the street, holding her down against her will and raping her, knowing you are invading her and damaging her body and mind just so you can climax and think that you don't think less of women then you've an "interesting perspective".

Most rape doesn't happen like that. The majority of rapes are with someone the person knows already. It could be any woman isn't really true in most cases. Most rapists will carefully choose their victims. Rape is a horrible and vile thing, probably one of the most horrible and vile things someone can do to another. But I cannot state that because someone rapes an individual that they have an inherent disrespect for any categories that person belongs too. A rapist may only choose victims with blond hair because that is what he is most attracted too, that does not mean he has an inherent disrespect of people with blond hair. They can have the utmost respect for people with blond hair, except the ones they choose as victims. There is a gap in the link between a persons actions on an individual and their opinion of any categories that individual belongs too. You feel it is disrespectful to all women but to convince someone you will need to fill that gap. There may be something to fill that gap, there might be a link, but without that information it's just a baseless assumption.

ash23

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

There is a gap in the link between a persons actions on an individual and their opinion of any categories that individual belongs too. You feel it is disrespectful to all women but to convince someone you will need to fill that gap. There may be something to fill that gap, there might be a link, but without that information it's just a baseless assumption.

Ah come on. I explained at length about the basis for my opinion about rapists and their view of women. I'm not going to repost it again. Read back.

starling

MaxWig wrote: »

Or, to put it another way, Lack of respect for people as human beings is fundamental to the capacity for all crime.

I'm just not sure how helpful that information is.

This all started because another poster claimed that "if a man rapes a woman it doesn't mean he doesn't respect women."

If young men were taught to respect women there wouldn't be so many rapes. If they grow up getting the messge that it's normal to have no respect for women they will be more likely to commit rape. It's not rocket science.

Tiddlypeeps

ash23 wrote: »

Ah come on. I explained at length about the basis for my opinion about rapists and their view of women. I'm not going to repost it again. Read back.

None of your posts filled that gap.

Edit: Ok just realised this is not a helpful post.

If a man considers all women as potential victims then yes they are showing a serious amount of disrespect for all women. The act of thinking of someone as just a victim is disrespectful. But rapists don't generally work like that. Weakness is often the main characteristic they pursue but I'm sure every case is different. In the case of rape it is very much down to the individuals views as to weather they disrespect all women or not, the act of rape itself isn't enough information to make assumptions about their views on all women.

Just like what you said in response to the punching an asian guy analogy, if the reasons for doing so are just because they are asian then yes it does show disrespect of asians in general. Just the same if someone rapes a woman simply because they are a woman then yes that person has no respect for women.

Just for the record I immediately regretted making the rape analogy because it's such an emotive topic.

MaxWig

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Porn is way off prostitution? Could you explain your reasoning behind that?

Second time in this thread someone has tried to use "that's stupid" as an argument. Not a good argument.

I'll accept that, that it is not a good argument.

But there was no suggestion of a valid position to counter.

Prostitution somehow provides a distraction for rapists and pedophiles??
I'm sorry, but even as I write it I find myself whispering the word to myself again - 'Stupid, stupid'.

I mean it might provide a distraction or a diversion, but so might fusbol, or frisbee.

There's simply no data. And apart form the 'They obviously follow their mickeys' argument, I see no logic to it either.

starling

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

None of your posts filled that gap.

There is no gap. Rapists don't respect women. They might claim they do, and they might even convince themselves, but if they respected women they wouldn't rape any woman. How are you not getting this?

And btw if you were referring to me in your above post, I didn't use "You're stupid" as an argument. I said that you were saying stupid stuff. And that in light of the stupid stuff you were saying, you had no business insulting other people's logic. I already explained that quite clearly.

MaxWig

starling wrote: »

This all started because another poster claimed that "if a man rapes a woman it doesn't mean he doesn't respect women."

If young men were taught to respect women there wouldn't be so many rapes. If they grow up getting the messge that it's normal to have no respect for women they will be more likely to commit rape. It's not rocket science.

Cool - I assume we can apply this logic to all crime then?

We could be on to a winner.

The 'Just have some respect' approach.

Ahh, I can hear my father saying it now.

Really brings me back.

Actually, now that you mention it, I'm not a rapist and my parents taught me to respect everyone, so now we have some data to back it up too.

Excellent.

MaxWig

Would you not think it's more likely that these people have no respect for themselves.

Anger issues, lack of self-restraint, tendency to act out, low self-esteem, projection of weakness on to others - all the usual boring stuff.

I just find the idea of respect to be a bit watery.
Not in practice, obviously, but as a reason or theory for behaviour.

starling

MaxWig wrote: »

Cool - I assume we can apply this logic to all crime then?

Sure, because all types of crime are exactly the same and happen for the same reason. The man who steals food from the supermarket to feed his children is motivated by the exact same thing as a serial killer. :rolleyes:

MaxWig wrote: »

We could be on to a winner.

The 'Just have some respect' approach.

Ahh, I can hear my father saying it now.

Really brings me back.

Actually, now that you mention it, I'm not a rapist and my parents taught me to respect everyone, so now we have some data to back it up too.

Excellent.

There's really no need for the patronising, especially when you're having trouble grasping such simple concepts.

username123

starling wrote: »

If young men were taught to respect women there wouldn't be so many rapes. If they grow up getting the messge that it's normal to have no respect for women they will be more likely to commit rape. It's not rocket science.

In societies where men are taught not to respect women (I'm thinking some Muslim countries here), are men more likely to commit rape? Is there any data on this?

Tiddlypeeps

MaxWig wrote: »

I'll accept that, that it is not a good argument.

But there was no suggestion of a valid position to counter.

Prostitution somehow provides a distraction for rapists and pedophiles??
I'm sorry, but even as I write it I find myself whispering the word to myself again - 'Stupid, stupid'.

I mean it might provide a distraction or a diversion, but so might fusbol, or frisbee.

There's simply no data. And apart form the 'They obviously follow their mickeys' argument, I see no logic to it either.

I didn't take that from what Claire said. I took it to mean that when you make prostitution illegal it forces it underground. When you have underground brothels there are no rules and nobody to regulate them. This allows them to sell any sex they want weather it's a consenting adult, or the darker end children and trafficked people.

I may have picked Clair up wrong, if she was saying that prostitution provides a distraction for rapists and pedophiles then I totally agree, there is no data to back that up.

starling wrote: »

There is no gap. Rapists don't respect women. They might claim they do, and they might even convince themselves, but if they respected women they wouldn't rape any woman. How are you not getting this?

And btw if you were referring to me in your above post, I didn't use "You're stupid" as an argument. I said that you were saying stupid stuff. And that in light of the stupid stuff you were saying, you had no business insulting other people's logic. I already explained that quite clearly.

If they respected the woman they are raping then they would not be raping them. Any opinions they hold towards the gender as a whole are down to the individual and their reasoning. Saying something over and over again doesn't make it true.

I as referring to you and if you'd read my post I said "that's stupid" not "your stupid". How is "what you are saying is stupid" any different from "that's stupid". I was fairly sure it was an appropriate reduction of the phrase. And yes "what you are saying is stupid" is a bad argument. It achieves nothing.

I never insulted anyones logic, logic isn't something you can insult. It's mathematical.

MaxWig

starling wrote: »

Sure, because all types of crime are exactly the same and happen for the same reason. The man who steals food from the supermarket to feed his children is motivated by the exact same thing as a serial killer. :rolleyes:



There's really no need for the patronising, especially when you're having trouble grasping such simple concepts.

All types of crime are the same, in that they breach a law.

If people are raised to respect supermarkets more, surely shoplifting will go down, if we take your argument.

And to use your serial killer analogy, if people were taught to respect life more, less serial-killers, right?

I understand your point - I just don't agree with it.

MaxWig

MOD

Removed banned posters quote

Yeah, I can see your confusion.

But I think you're as well off leaving respect as far away from the conversation as is possible.

You as well talk about the percentage of rapists who smoke

ash23

MaxWig wrote: »

Yeah, I can see your confusion.

But I think you're as well off leaving respect as far away from the conversation as is possible.

You as well talk about the percentage of rapists who smoke

So a rapists attitude towards women has no bearing on the fact that he rapes women? Seriously?

MaxWig

ash23 wrote: »

So a rapists attitude towards women has no bearing on the fact that he rapes women? Seriously?

I'm sure it does.

But you'd have to define 'attitude' for me - and that's not easy, even for those who spend their days trying to do it.

I'm sure their attitude towards sex is equally relevant.

And their attitude towards themselves.

And their attitude towards their mother I imagine would be particularly relevant.

I'm certain their attitude towards their relationship with their father would be hugely enlightening.

I'm not being facetious, but how I feel towards someone or something does not define my behaviour towards them, it's simply one aspect of a matrix of influences

meeeeh

It is nice to see how opinions can be discredited and steered of topic with the couple of long posts made by snotty boys who really have a bit too much time on their hands.