What DO you think

Would you get in to a relationship with a man who told you he had been to prostitutes.

The reason I ask is that anyone time any reference to prostitution come up here the general consensus is so long as it is safe and legal I am grand with it, does that mean you are grand with the men in your life going to prostitutes or does it mean you are grand with it in conceptualised philosophical way.

MY experience of this is that I have had a date with a man who told me her went to Thailand every summer for two months and during that time he had various paid "girlfriends" each one seemed to last a week or two he was utterly convinced it was not prostitution, any one guess what he did for a living as he had two months off in the summer. The wave of cynicism emanating from him about woman..you pay for it one way or another bla bla, so for me I would not get in to a relationship with a man who habitually used prostitutes simply because it affects ever other relationship that men engages in and not in a good way.

I have a very nuanced view of prostitution, it is never going to go away and I do think organisation that oppose prostitution can come across as educated middle class woman telling poor or excluded woman what to do.

vitani

No. I couldn't be in a relationship with someone who had so little respect for women that they believed they were a commodity to be bought and sold.

Jelly2

Definitely not, unless he regretted doing it. People can do what they want (within the law), but I don't have to like it and I can judge them for it if I want. And I don't think that buying a woman for sex is a reflection of good character in a man.

mitosis

Hmm. The women are not being bought and sold - their services are. Much as you buy the services of a plumber - you don't get to buy the actual plumber, just his expertise with a wrench.

The man in the OP obviously has some issues with women that need addressing. Maybe the reason he thinks like that needs examining, rather than merely assuming he is a bad sort because he chooses to be.

Jelly2

Jelly2 wrote: »

Definitely not, unless he regretted doing it. People can do what they want (within the law), but I don't have to like it and I can judge them for it if I want. And I don't think that buying a woman for sex is a reflection of good character in a man.

Judgement is a very bold word in our society:D

Jelly2

Put it whatever way you want. Buying her service for sex, buying the use of her body for sex. I still don't like it, and I would think less of a man who did it. I certainly wouldn't want to be in a relationship with him.

Jelly2

mariaalice wrote: »

Judgement is a very bold word in our society:D

I know! Not judging is fine when something doesn't affect you, but how on earth can we navigate through life when we do not judge actions that may affect our relationships and own wellbeing? And what about principles? It's impossible to have them without making implicit judgements about other people's behaviour.

mitosis

mitosis wrote: »

Hmm. The women are not being bought and sold - their services are. Much as you buy the services of a plumber - you don't get to buy the actual plumber, just his expertise with a wrench.

The man in the OP obviously has some issues with women that need addressing. Maybe the reason he thinks like that needs examining, rather than merely assuming he is a bad sort because he chooses to be.

I don't think he was a bad person at all that too subjective a word, how are our views and opinion formed they are formed by our interaction with society and people, his thinking was formed by his use of prostitutes not solely by the use of prostitutes but largely informed by using prostitutes.

Princess Peach

vitani wrote: »

No. I couldn't be in a relationship with someone who had so little respect for women that they believed they were a commodity to be bought and sold.

I will agree. They might say they did it somewhere it was legal, and she was clean and not trafficked and not on drugs and chose her job, but its still supporting an industry I really dislike.

It also would show that he values sex differently than I do, which could create issues for me.

Maybe if it was when he was young, and he regrets it now and holds different values, but I would have problems being in a relationship with someone who thought it was all grand.

syklops

I'd be more put off that he told you what he did/does on the first date.

MaxWig

Princess Peach wrote: »

I will agree. They might say they did it somewhere it was legal, and she was clean and not trafficked and not on drugs and chose her job, but its still supporting an industry I really dislike.

It also would show that he values sex differently than I do, which could create issues for me.

Maybe if it was when he was young, and he regrets it now and holds different values, but I would have problems being in a relationship with someone who thought it was all grand.

And if he watches porn? Is it not also an industry with dodgy aspects and a reputation for exploitation.

The recent hysteria regarding the prostitution industry is akin to the lunacy one observes around the drugs debate.

Be against Trafficking. Jesus, be against drugs if you like.

But keep the issues separate.

Prostitution and trafficking are two separate phenomena.

Kold

What do you mean paid girlfriends? As in he gave them a bit of money here and there to work with? You think that's inappropriate behaviour in a relationship where one person has 1000x the money of another person? Or you mean he paid a flat rate?

Princess Peach

MaxWig wrote: »

And if he watches porn? Is it not also an industry with dodgy aspects and a reputation for exploitation.

The recent hysteria regarding the prostitution industry is akin to the lunacy one observes around the drugs debate.

Be against Trafficking. Jesus, be against drugs if you like.

But keep the issues separate.

Prostitution and trafficking are two separate phenomena.

I am against drugs

I'm not actually doing anything to fight prostitution at all, just saying I wouldn't like to be in a relationship with someone who supports it. Just as I wouldn't be in a relationship with a drug user.

syklops

syklops wrote: »

I'd be more put off that he told you what he did/does on the first date.

Well it was a second date and I did not meet him again, I met him on a dating site, had the usual meet and greet then he asked me out for a meal I think the reason he told me was because he did not see what he was doing as prostitution in the accepted sense.

It intrigues me that people can have a certain view on a philosophical level but when they are questioned about on how it might affect them personally they try and side step the trap of their own argument.

Its okay to say I am for legalising prostitution, but I would not want my father, my son, or my lover to have used a prostitute and it is okay to say I would not want my daughter or sister to be a prostitute, yes those position do contradict each other and you should be called on it, but at least it is honest.

LegacyUser

I'm an incel- involuntarily celibate. I'm a late thirties virgin. Im not hideous or a weirdo. I'm a normal person with a house and a good job just can never get attention from the opposite sex. I am joined to incel support groups on line. Something like 90 per cent of the users of these sites are male. An average male is seen as going to feel a different sexual compulsion than an average female. Its simple biology. A lot of men on incel groups seek advice about whether they should use prostitutes or not. The possible affect on future relationships is a big reason why to not do it but some often believe there future possibilities are so low, it doesn't matter. The community don't condone it in the least and will warn about the risks and potential reasons why these women do what they do. Some will go to prostitutes and regret it. Some will go and be thankful they have had some opportunity to have sex in their life as a poor substitute for the companionship they want even if it is seen as sad and pathetic by the outside world. When you see how many men end up on their own in life I dont think its surprising that some will be pushed to consider doing things others wouldnt otherwise. just because they do it doesn't necessarily mean they did lightly and it doesnt make it okay. Desperation is sad but it's also very easy to judge I think.

MaxWig

Princess Peach wrote: »

I am against drugs

I'm not actually doing anything to fight prostitution at all, just saying I wouldn't like to be in a relationship with someone who supports it. Just as I wouldn't be in a relationship with a drug user.

Fair enough.

Its a strange industry to be 'against'.

There was a very interesting documentary on Channel 4 recently called 'Sex on Wheels', which followed a number of individuals with various disabilities as they sought out sex.

One particular mother paid for her son to visit an escort. He had a mild learning disability, and had remained a virgin as a result. It was one of the most compassionate and generous gestures I've ever seen.

I see no reason why anyone should live without sex, be it as a result of a disability or for any other societal reason. That includes the old, the fat, the ugly, the shy, the socially inept.....etc. etc.


The pious attitudes that many people hold towards an industry (I imagine) they have had very little experience with is interesting though.

Kold

Kold wrote: »

What do you mean paid girlfriends? As in he gave them a bit of money here and there to work with? You think that's inappropriate behaviour in a relationship where one person has 1000x the money of another person? Or you mean he paid a flat rate?

The way it seemed to work was the woman would move in with him for a week for a certain amount of money, if he got fed up or did not like her he found another girl who would do the same. The woman were doing it for money so it was prostitution even if he did not think It was.

Princess Peach

I just don't like an industry that has a high rate of crime, rape, violence and abuse of humans. I know that these aren't affecting everyone involved in it, but it is common enough for me to not like it as a whole. It's not going to go away, and I'm not going to try and change that, but I still won't ever support it.

MaxWig

MaxWig wrote: »

Fair enough.

Its a strange industry to be 'against'.

There was a very interesting documentary on Channel 4 recently called 'Sex on Wheels', which followed a number of individuals with various disabilities as they sought out sex.

One particular mother paid for her son to visit an escort. He had a mild learning disability, and had remained a virgin as a result. It was one of the most compassionate and generous gestures I've ever seen.

I see no reason why anyone should live without sex, be it as a result of a disability or for any other societal reason. That includes the old, the fat, the ugly, the shy, the socially inept.....etc. etc.

So your argument is that it is alright for devalued people to pay for sex, surely that only going to make them internalise even more devalued views of themselves.




The pious attitudes that many people hold towards an industry (I imagine) they have had very little experience with is interesting though.

I am also intrigued by you argument that people should not have to live with out sex( unless they choose to ) I,e. sex is an entitlement in society and if you cant get it by conventional means then you should get by paying for it. I do not agree with that at all, sex is not an entitlement.

MaxWig

mariaalice wrote: »

I am also intrigued by you argument that people should not have to live with out sex( unless they choose to ) I,e. sex is an entitlement in society and if you cant get it by conventional means then you should get by paying for it. I do not agree with that at all, sex is not an entitlement.

I never said it was an entitlement, although I wouldn't put it very far down the chart from food and shelter in terms of the benefit it provides the individual.

I think a healthy sexual life is an important facet of a happy life.

I think the 'mistake' that many people make is to assume that if it is sex with a prostitute, it is not healthy.

meeeeh

A friend of mine went to a prostitute. He was a virgin well in his twenties, he was unlucky with girls and to top it off he started thinking he might be gay because of some stuff that others said. He was so nervous it didn't even work for him. Someone like him, I'd have no problems dating but no I don't like people who constantly use of prodtitutes. Anyway if someone told me on the second date, I would stop seeing him regardless. You really have to be dumb to volunteer that kind of information so early.

I think what's at the heart of the argument is this idea of an entitlement to sex and if you cant get It by being in a relationship well then you just pay for it, lots of men ( and women ) with strongly sexual personalities and who are secure in their attractiveness to the opposite sex spend years being celibate not by choice but by circumstance and they do not pay for use of a prostitute, thats often forgotten about I think.

MaxWig

mariaalice wrote: »

I think what's at the heart of the argument is this idea of an entitlement to sex and if you cant get It by being in a relationship well then you just pay for it, lots of men ( and women ) with strongly sexual personalities and who are secure in their attractiveness to the opposite sex spend years being celibate not by choice but by circumstance and they do not pay for use of a prostitute, thats often forgotten about I think.

I think you are right.

But I also think that there are very many people who are completely hung up on sex.

The idea that one 'should' be in a relationship in order to engage in sex is a religious one.

People who engage in meaningless sex often find it unfulfilling.
People who get married and have sex for forty years, will often find it unfulfilling.

Sex is one notch up the dial from masturbation.

It is not sacred.
It is not holy.

I know many people believe that sex is an expression of 'true love', and that God works through their genitals etc. etc. but if two consenting adults want to reach an agreement regarding their own bodies, everyone else should keep out of it.

vitani

MaxWig wrote: »

I know many people believe that sex is an expression of 'true love', and that God works through their genitals etc. etc. but if two consenting adults want to reach an agreement regarding their own bodies, everyone else should keep out of it.

And that's their prerogative and I don't judge them for it, as such.

I just believe that a man who uses the services of a prostitute has values that aren't compatible with mine, and I wouldn't be interested in a relationship with them.

MaxWig

vitani wrote: »

And that's their prerogative and I don't judge them for it, as such.

I just believe that a man who uses the services of a prostitute has values that aren't compatible with mine, and I wouldn't be interested in a relationship with them.

And I'm not judging you for that either.



I am curious as to the values you are ascribing?

Genuinely

ash23

I can't understand why someone would tell a new partner that. Any boyfriend I've had, we discussed serious relationships that we'd had but all the flings and ONS etc weren't mentioned as I don't think they are important. And the same would go for a guy visiting a prostitute.

So I suppose I would think less of him but I'd also think less of a guy who told me about his ONS. I think it's on a need to know basis and I don't need to know once he was safe.
His attitude to women would concern me more. There are plenty of guys who use money to control women, or to punch above their weight in the dating pool. I wouldn't like that attitude at all because I want to be seen as an equal. If they looked at women as something to be bought and sold, or had a poor opinion of them or felt that money was the way to get and keep a girlfriend then I wouldn't respect them. For me it's less about the act and more about the overall view of women.

MaxWig

ash23 wrote: »

I can't understand why someone would tell a new partner that. Any boyfriend I've had, we discussed serious relationships that we'd had but all the flings and ONS etc weren't mentioned as I don't think they are important. And the same would go for a guy visiting a prostitute.

So I suppose I would think less of him but I'd also think less of a guy who told me about his ONS. I think it's on a need to know basis and I don't need to know once he was safe.
His attitude to women would concern me more. There are plenty of guys who use money to control women, or to punch above their weight in the dating pool. I wouldn't like that attitude at all because I want to be seen as an equal. If they looked at women as something to be bought and sold, or had a poor opinion of them or felt that money was the way to get and keep a girlfriend then I wouldn't respect them. For me it's less about the act and more about the overall view of women.

I agree with you on some points.

But the buying and selling of women thing?

That's called slavery, and its been illegal here since, well, since I don't know when.

Prostitution has nothing to do with the buying and selling of women

ash23

MaxWig wrote: »

I agree with you on some points.

But the buying and selling of women thing?

That's called slavery, and its been illegal here since, well, since I don't know when.

Prostitution has nothing to do with the buying and selling of women

It's not meant to be literal. But that fact is that some rich men think that their money is a way to get a girlfriend. Some men use money to keep women in their control. It happens. Some women are stuck with their husbands because they control finances etc. Some men do believe that they "own" their wives. It's not that far fetched. And I never said prostitution was equated to buying and selling women. I said that if a man has the attitude that a woman can be bought and sold, or moreso, that he can use money to control or keep a woman, then his attitude would put me off, prostitution or not.

MaxWig

MaxWig wrote: »

I think you are right.

But I also think that there are very many people who are completely hung up on sex.

The idea that one 'should' be in a relationship in order to engage in sex is a religious one.

People who engage in meaningless sex often find it unfulfilling.
People who get married and have sex for forty years, will often find it unfulfilling.

Sex is one notch up the dial from masturbation.

It is not sacred.
It is not holy.

I know many people believe that sex is an expression of 'true love', and that God works through their genitals etc. etc. but if two consenting adults want to reach an agreement regarding their own bodies, everyone else should keep out of it.

I don't think sex in and of itself is sacred nor do I think it is an expression of true love alone, I do think it is different from the need for food or shelter because it involves opening up ourselves to another the face to face encounter ( Emmanuel Levinas ) etc., apparently men who use prostitutes often wont look the prostitute in the eye during the act I think that's interesting.

I am not religious in the conventional sense.

MaxWig

mariaalice wrote: »

I don't think sex in and of itself is sacred nor do I think it is an expression of true love alone, I do think it is different from the need for food or shelter because it involves opening up ourselves to another the face to face encounter ( Emmanuel Levinas ) etc., apparently men who use prostitutes often wont look the prostitute in the eye during the act I think that's interesting.

I am not religious in the conventional sense.

Levinas was discussing the ethics of the encounter with the other, and the responsibility of one to the other.

This does not preclude the business encounter.

There seems to be an assumption that it is gnomes, ogres and monsters that are using the services of prostitutes.

They are, I imagine, often very decent and honourable characters.
They are also, I imagine, often the opposite.

But it is not the act itself that determines these things.

In fact, in making any assumption about the client of a prostitute, one misses Levinas' point completely.

cantdecide

mariaalice wrote: »

apparently men who use prostitutes often wont look the prostitute in the eye during the act I think that's interesting.

For what reason? What would you think about a man participating in GFE (girlfriend experience) with a prostitute- is that equally disrespectful to women? Can a man both visit a prostitute and maintain respect for women?

jaffacakesyum

I would never get in a relationship with a man who uses prostitutes. I have no problem with prostitution being legalised and if the women is safe and happy than knock your brains out, but it's just not something I could ever respect in a man.

I've gone long spells without sex that have drove me crazy but I would rather die a virgin than pay for sex. I'm not saying everyone should be like that, I'm just saying my potential partner would not be someone who pays for sex.

MaxWig

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I would never get in a relationship with a man who uses prostitutes. I have no problem with prostitution being legalised and if the women is safe and happy than knock your brains out, but it's just not something I could ever respect in a man.

I've gone long spells without sex that have drove me crazy but I would rather die a virgin than pay for sex. I'm not saying everyone should be like that, I'm just saying my potential partner would not be someone who pays for sex.

As far as you'll know

jaffacakesyum

MaxWig wrote: »

As far as you'll know

Obviously

username123

I'd really have to judge each situation on its own merits. It wouldn't necessarily be an automatic deal breaker. It would depend very much on the why, how, who, when of it all. And the mans attitude to women in a broader sense also.

eviltwin

I couldn't either, I've nothing against it but its just one of those things I would have a hard time accepting from a partner. Maybe that makes me a judgemental hypocrite but so be it.

YumCha

I will say I used to be far more black and white on this than I am now. My position at the moment is it depends, as I'm slightly undecided about situations where the guy has a particular fetish, or as someone else mentioned - the case of disabilities.

On the fetish side - there are a few female dommes in Ireland and they explicitly don't offer 'sexual' services in order to remain operational - would people here generally lump that in with prostitution?

ash23

YumCha wrote: »

I will say I used to be far more black and white on this than I am now. My position at the moment is it depends, as I'm slightly undecided about situations where the guy has a particular fetish, or as someone else mentioned - the case of disabilities.

On the fetish side - there are a few female dommes in Ireland and they explicitly don't offer 'sexual' services in order to remain operational - would people here generally lump that in with prostitution?

If you're paying for sexual gratification then to me, it's the same as prostitution. In fact I would find a fetish more off putting than someone who went to a prostitute for sex (unless it was also of the kinky variety). I'm not really into fetishes myself so I can't see how I'd have a healthy relationship with someone who was.

Kold

I'll share my opinion but I fear it will be completely lambasted.


First of all, I don't use prostitutes. However I have lived in areas where prostitution is endemic and I would not judge a man who does go to them as long as he treats them with respect and I also don't judge prostitutes as long as they aren't thieves.

The problem with a lot of Asia is that there isn't much in between the 'proper' girls who you have to see for ages until you get a whiff and then they expect marriage and kid and actual working girls. I've been rather sexless for a little while as I try to seek a girl who likes to keep things casual and on top of all my other criteria for a suitable partner, this is difficult. I have friends who often go with customers to make a little extra money but the fact is, in almost every case the girl can say no. You need to realise that being a working girl is actually easier and more lucrative than working in a rice field, a restaurant or whatever. Often these girls are actually looking for a western boyfriend because a) they have money and b) they often treat girls much better than the locals.

So a lot of the time, it's easier for a man to see a working girl than to court a young lady and then get seen as a scumbag when they don't put a ring on their finger. Personally, I don't really like that option as it's so short term and blowing my load once mechanically is not the sexual relief I'm seeking.

I'm not saying all but a lot of Western women are so hung up on prostitution but have no problems with getting their smelly feet soaked and massaged, or buying knock off clothing and handbags made in sweatshops. It's all exploitation. I think it boils down to a sexual politics thing, the fear of rape, or else women think men need to earn sex. The men do earn sex. Only whereas at home they might earn it from charm and good looks, over here they earn it from having money. Although money matters at home and charm and good looks also gets you far over here.

People complain about the old men who come out here and take advantage of the young girls (and boys). I've met a lot of punters, arseholes exist, but I've also met lots of lovely older men who worked all their lives, never married, come out here and maybe find a wife 10 or 20 years younger and I honestly see no wrongdoing. By Western standards this man is a loser, well f*ck judgemental sheltered people who point the finger. If a man provides, respects and is good to a woman, let him eat cake.
Fairy tales rarely exist out here.

MaxWig

ash23 wrote: »

If you're paying for sexual gratification then to me, it's the same as prostitution. In fact I would find a fetish more off putting than someone who went to a prostitute for sex (unless it was also of the kinky variety). I'm not really into fetishes myself so I can't see how I'd have a healthy relationship with someone who was.

Far be it from me to judge, but are you looking for a replicate of yourself?

username123

ash23 wrote: »

I'm not really into fetishes myself so I can't see how I'd have a healthy relationship with someone who was.

I think this is another one I'd have to judge on specifics, for example, if my husband had a fetish that meant he couldn't reach satisfaction unless I wore red silk gloves during the act, I'd just wear them, no big deal to me. But if he wanted to do something that I viewed as unpleasant to me, I'd have to say no. It would really depend.

ash23

MaxWig wrote: »

Far be it from me to judge, but are you looking for a replicate of yourself?

No but having similar sexual tastes are important in a relationship. I wouldn't be one for entertaining fetish as I'd feel like a muppet and I wouldn't find it sexy or appealing.

But nor would I be ok with him getting his jollies on with another woman who would be interested while I wait at home.

Compatibility is pretty important. No point either person either depriving themselves of their desires or forcing themselves to do something they aren't comfortable with in order to keep their partner happy.
Much more likely to have a good sex life when both parties are into it and comfortable with what they are doing.

MaxWig

ash23 wrote: »

No but having similar sexual tastes are important in a relationship. I wouldn't be one for entertaining fetish as I'd feel like a muppet and I wouldn't find it sexy or appealing.

But nor would I be ok with him getting his jollies on with another woman who would be interested while I wait at home.

Compatibility is pretty important. No point either person either depriving themselves of their desires or forcing themselves to do something they aren't comfortable with in order to keep their partner happy.
Much more likely to have a good sex life when both parties are into it and comfortable with what they are doing.

Hence the massive and varied prostitution market

ash23

username123 wrote: »

I think this is another one I'd have to judge on specifics, for example, if my husband had a fetish that meant he couldn't reach satisfaction unless I wore red silk gloves during the act, I'd just wear them, no big deal to me. But if he wanted to do something that I viewed as unpleasant to me, I'd have to say no. It would really depend.

Well as it was asked in the context of having to attend a dominatrix, I was taking it to mean a more specialist kind of fetish, something kind of extreme.

username123

ash23 wrote: »

Well as it was asked in the context of having to attend a dominatrix, I was taking it to mean a more specialist kind of fetish, something kind of extreme.

Again, I'd have to judge it on specifics. Sometimes you do things for someone you love that you aren't mad about doing yourself. So long as its not painful or awful, I wouldn't really mind.

Emme

mariaalice wrote: »

The way it seemed to work was the woman would move in with him for a week for a certain amount of money, if he got fed up or did not like her he found another girl who would do the same. The woman were doing it for money so it was prostitution even if he did not think It was.

This speaks volumes about the guys attitude to women. He probably treats women from the dating site in the same way. He was telling you in not so many words that he only stays with a woman until he gets fed up with her and then moves onto the next one. I daresay if you went on another date with this guy he would expect sex. There's nothing wrong with that but I don't like his attitude to women, he seems to see them as commodities.

vitani

MaxWig wrote: »

And I'm not judging you for that either.



I am curious as to the values you are ascribing?

Genuinely

It indicates that he doesn't respect women, as far as I'm concerned. And it shows an attitude to sex itself that I'm not comfortable with.

I'm not a prude, but I believe sex should, at the very least, be something that both parties enjoy. If a woman is only doing it because she's being paid, then regardless of why she chose to participate, it bothers me. It may not be a traumatic experience for her but it does indicate that a man who pays for it thinks that his 'need' for sex is so important that it comes above having a completely willing partner.

Kold

vitani wrote: »

It indicates that he doesn't respect women, as far as I'm concerned. And it shows an attitude to sex itself that I'm not comfortable with.

I'm not a prude, but I believe sex should, at the very least, be something that both parties enjoy. If a woman is only doing it because she's being paid, then regardless of why she chose to participate, it bothers me. It may not be a traumatic experience for her but it does indicate that a man who pays for it thinks that his 'need' for sex is so important that it comes above having a completely willing partner.

Why can everything else in this world be a commodity except for sex?

MaxWig

vitani wrote: »

It indicates that he doesn't respect women, as far as I'm concerned. And it shows an attitude to sex itself that I'm not comfortable with.

I'm not a prude, but I believe sex should, at the very least, be something that both parties enjoy. If a woman is only doing it because she's being paid, then regardless of why she chose to participate, it bothers me. It may not be a traumatic experience for her but it does indicate that a man who pays for it thinks that his 'need' for sex is so important that it comes above having a completely willing partner.

Sp you have decided to relegate the 'woman' to a completely passive aspect of the transaction.

Being paid = unwilling????

vitani

Kold wrote: »

Why can everything else in this world be a commodity except for sex?

It can be a commodity. But not to someone I'd want to be in a relationship with.

Kold

vitani wrote: »

It can be a commodity. But not to someone I'd want to be in a relationship with.

Why would it be any of your business? Do you check up every partner's history?