Dublin Bus strike from Sunday 04/08 [called off - service resumes 07/08]

lil5

‘We could end up in a Dublin, without a Dublin Bus’ says former union official - Journal.ie -
http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-bus-report-noel-dowling-1132085-Oct2013/

DUBLIN BUS HAS endorsed an independent report into Dublin Bus’ future which warns against future strike action.

The 22-page report was carried out by former union official Noel Dowling and management consultant Ultan Courtney.

...

Dublin Bus has backed the new plan to cut costs and it will be voted on next week.

...

We are “trying to see if we can make the Labour Court recommendations more palatable to the drivers in terms of how they are operated… “.


Dowling said he could not hammer home the seriousness of the situation with Dublin Bus, stating:

… over three or four years the company has accumulated a deficit of €52 million. It is burning off its cash reserves and is at the end of its banking facility… I couldn’t overestimate the critical nature of this …

He said that the situation with Dublin Bus was “extremely worrying” adding that the situation “is so bad that we could end up in a Dublin without a Dublin bus”.

Hootanany

lil5 wrote: »

‘We could end up in a Dublin, without a Dublin Bus’ says former union official - Journal.ie -
http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-bus-report-noel-dowling-1132085-Oct2013/

Good then give it over to a private company.

StreetLight

Hootanany wrote: »

Good then give it over to a private company.

and watch the fares skyrocket overnight along with no night-time service because of the loss of subvention. Yeah, good.

TimeToShine

Hootanany wrote: »

Good then give it over to a private company.

Would spell disaster for a lot of people. Privatization would most likely eliminate all of the "X" routes that a lot of people rely on to get to work. The express routes would improve but everything else would take a serious hit.

markpb

StreetLight wrote: »

and watch the fares skyrocket overnight along with no night-time service because of the loss of subvention. Yeah, good.

DBs fares are regulated by the NTA. Any private operator operating their routes would presumably have the same regulation.
DB's nightlink service already operates without subvention.
Or do you mean their evening services which are already subsidised and would presumably continue to be so unless you know something we don't?

TimeToShine wrote: »

Would spell disaster for a lot of people. Privatization would most likely eliminate all of the "X" routes that a lot of people rely on to get to work. The express routes would improve but everything else would take a serious hit.

More unsubstantiated rumours. Do you know what form privatisation will take? Do you know how the routes will be tendered or subsidised?

Hootanany

Simple any private operator has to do the routes they are given.

StreetLight

markpb wrote: »

DBs fares are regulated by the NTA. Any private operator operating their routes would presumably have the same regulation.
DB's nightlink service already operates without subvention.
Or do you mean their evening services which are already subsidised and would presumably continue to be so unless you know something we don't?

The reply was advocating something along the lines of handing over the entire Dublin Bus operation to a private company. Private operators do not receive subvention and tend to operate peak times only. Swords Express have an off peak fare of €3 and a peak fare of €4, which is more than a typical Dublin Bus unsubvented fare, never mind a subvented one.

paulieb

markpb wrote: »

DB's nightlink service already operates without subvention.

E2.80 is the max fare with subvention
E5.70 for nightlink without subvention.

subvention cut 8% in budget, fares will be going up.

looks like the government are setting dublin bus up for a private take over, be careful what you wish for.

loads of routes will be canceled , whats left will have little to no service after 8pm and sky high prices.

markpb

StreetLight wrote: »

The reply was advocating something along the lines of handing over the entire Dublin Bus operation to a private company. Private operators do not receive subvention.

Private operators have not previously been paid a PSO because Dublin Bus automatically operate all PSO routes in the city. The government don't even offer it out to other companies. This doesn't mean there's a ban on private operators being paid PSO nor does it mean that the government have no plans to pay PSO to any operator who takes on the DB routes.

I've no strong opinions of whether DB should or shouldn't be privatised but we don't know what the plans are, we don't know how much a private operator would be paid so assuming the worst based on zero knowledge is idiotic.

SandyfordGuy

The subsidy being cut by eight percent will cause all that?

the way you are going on is if it will be chopped in half'

devnull

StreetLight wrote: »

Swords Express have an off peak fare of €3 and a peak fare of €4, which is more than a typical Dublin Bus unsubvented fare, never mind a subvented one.

Completely utterly wrong, the only unsubvented services that Dublin Bus operate are the nightlink (€5 - €5.70), the Airlink (€6) and the Sightseeing Tours. But don't let the facts get in the way of your post.

devnull

paulieb wrote: »

loads of routes will be canceled , whats left will have little to no service after 8pm and sky high prices.

So private operators will resort in fares going up, frequencies being cut back and routes being cancelled and capacity reduced?

Funnily enough those are the very same reasons that I, and many others no longer use Dublin Bus. But remember, that only happens with private operators.

Also subsidy has been reduced over recent years in line with the fact that Dublin Bus has run less services, in any contract, if you cut the amount of work you do, expect to get paid less for it.

Also whilst direct subsidy is down, indirect subsidy is up, since Dublin Bus now get vehicles provided for them free of charge, Prior to 2012 they funded such vehicles themselves.

Also the fact that some say that private companies only operate at peak times, the only companies operating 24 hour services to the airport from Dublin, and the most round the clock intercity routes, all happen to be private. Funny that.

end of the road

StreetLight wrote: »

and watch the fares skyrocket overnight along with no night-time service because of the loss of subvention. Yeah, good.

thats probably what will happen, i can't see the irish government doing a uk and doubling or trippling the subsidy, or maybe they could in the belief that the public won't notice or care because the service is now privatised

LXFlyer

StreetLight wrote: »

and watch the fares skyrocket overnight along with no night-time service because of the loss of subvention. Yeah, good.

TimeToShine wrote: »

Would spell disaster for a lot of people. Privatization would most likely eliminate all of the "X" routes that a lot of people rely on to get to work. The express routes would improve but everything else would take a serious hit.

StreetLight wrote: »

The reply was advocating something along the lines of handing over the entire Dublin Bus operation to a private company. Private operators do not receive subvention and tend to operate peak times only. Swords Express have an off peak fare of €3 and a peak fare of €4, which is more than a typical Dublin Bus unsubvented fare, never mind a subvented one.

paulieb wrote: »

E2.80 is the max fare with subvention

E5.70 for nightlink without subvention.



subvention cut 8% in budget, fares will be going up.



looks like the government are setting dublin bus up for a private take over, be careful what you wish for.



loads of routes will be canceled , whats left will have little to no service after 8pm and sky high prices.

I have read some scaremongering nonsense in my time but these posts take the biscuit.

Did any of you read the proposals that the NTA have for the future operation of Dublin Bus PSO services? Clearly you have not.

The services that Dublin Bus operate are done so under contract from the NTA. The fares that they charge are set by the NTA. The NTA decides what PSO support Dublin Bus will get. The NTA decides the service levels that must be provided.

The NTA are already considering the tendering of 10% of the Dublin Bus route network in 2016 - the winning operators will receive a fixed fee for operating the tendered services, with performance incentives, while the NTA will retain the farebox revenue and risk.

The fee will effectively incorporate the PSO subsidy for the routes in question. The NTA will continue to set the fares that are charged and the service levels that will be required to be operated.

So let's not go down the road of complete and total scaremongering nonsense please.

SandyfordGuy

The subsidy being cut by eight percent will cause all that?

the way you are going on is if it will be chopped in half'

end of the road

markpb wrote: »

DBs fares are regulated by the NTA. Any private operator operating their routes would presumably have the same regulation.
DB's nightlink service already operates without subvention.
Or do you mean their evening services which are already subsidised and would presumably continue to be so unless you know something we don't?



More unsubstantiated rumours. Do you know what form privatisation will take? Do you know how the routes will be tendered or subsidised?

1. i'm taking it he means evening services
2. even if they are under the same regulation as DB theirs no guarintee that the operator won't look for and get either a larger subsidy or be allowed to put up the fairs, the NTA will bend over for any private operator running DB as they won't want to do anything to upset the private or potential private operators, after all they will want to make sure some will actually bid for the contract should privatisation happen.
3. of course we can't no for certain how privatisation would happen in ireland but knowing how a lot of things have happened in ireland it will be a shambles most likely, with proffit being the only goal

end of the road

Hootanany wrote: »

Simple any private operator has to do the routes they are given.

once they bid and get the contract then yes they do but they can always apply to cut the service or just make it difficult for people to use it in shall we say less obvious ways, their entitled to know the available routes and all information in relation to these routes so they can decide whether to bid or not so if they end up with a bundle of less proffitable routes they may not go for the contract.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

So private operators will resort in fares going up, frequencies being cut back and routes being cancelled and capacity reduced?

Funnily enough those are the very same reasons that I, and many others no longer use Dublin Bus. But remember, that only happens with private operators.

Also subsidy has been reduced over recent years in line with the fact that Dublin Bus has run less services, in any contract, if you cut the amount of work you do, expect to get paid less for it.

Also whilst direct subsidy is down, indirect subsidy is up, since Dublin Bus now get vehicles provided for them free of charge, Prior to 2012 they funded such vehicles themselves.

Also the fact that some say that private companies only operate at peak times, the only companies operating 24 hour services to the airport from Dublin, and the most round the clock intercity routes, all happen to be private. Funny that.

no not funny at all, the routes these operators operate are proffitable, much of dublin bus routes aren't and never will be

SandyfordGuy

and dublin bus can apply to cut services as well and did

it was called network direct

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

no not funny at all, the routes these operators operate are proffitable

But they are running some departures in early hours of the day which will not be making money, but you claim that these off-peak departures will be stopped by private operators since they are losing money yet there is examples showing that it is not the case.

Also if you think every route operated by private companies is profitable then you'd be wrong, a lot of the private companies are struggling due to the market but are providing extra funding in the hope of riding out the current climate, by additional funding from their parent groups and/or attracting further investment.

Hootanany

end of the road wrote: »

no not funny at all, the routes these operators operate are proffitable, much of dublin bus routes aren't and never will be

Because all the OT and perks Private operators will have none off that noncence.

TimeToShine

markpb wrote: »

More unsubstantiated rumours. Do you know what form privatisation will take? Do you know how the routes will be tendered or subsidised?

What on earth makes you think a private company would run buses that nearly always finish their route completely empty or with a small handful of people on them? They would have express routes terminating at the most popular destinations, which is usually the city centre.

end of the road

Hootanany wrote: »

Because all the OT and perks Private operators will have none off that noncence.

of course they will, just different ones

devnull

TimeToShine wrote: »

What on earth makes you think a private company would run buses that nearly always finish their route completely empty or with a small handful of people on them? They would have express routes terminating at the most popular destinations, which is usually the city centre.

The same reason as Dublin Bus do it now

Such services that are socially necessary but not economically viable will always need to be subsidized. Saying that private operators with no subsidy won't do it but public bus companies with subsidy will do it therefore public bus companies are better than private is folly since you are not comparing like for like.

monument

paulieb wrote: »

looks like the government are setting dublin bus up for a private take over, be careful what you wish for.

If so, the unions are playing right into their hands.

Just like the council-employed bin men did around the country.

paulieb wrote: »

whats left will have little to no service after 8pm

Transdev somehow manage to run the Luas well after 8pm and after Dublin Bus goes to sleep.

devnull

I just read this in the report linked to by LXFlyer in an earlier post.

However passengers will ultimately decide the fate of Dublin Bus. They will only return in numbers if Dublin Bus provides a good service, attractive fares and guarantees continuity of service to potential passengers. The recent dispute damaged the goodwill built up over the past few years by bus drivers and this will not be easily won back. This proposal provides an opportunity to do so.

Further on:

However the 3 day strike damaged public confidence in the service and 700,000 passenger journeys were lost and passenger numbers have not yet returned to pre-strike levels. The strike cost Dublin Bus €550,000 in reduced payments from the National Transport Authority and the Department of Social Protectio

So already it seems that the strike has made the company in an even worse positio since people have just given up on using Dublin Bus. It's important that all sides realise that if another strike was to happen, the situation at the company will only get worse.

If I was an employee of Dublin Bus, the last paragraph would have me extremely worried, because that is the kind of thing that really will effect the viability of the company and its services. The fact that customers are abandoning Dublin Bus because of the industrial action, is one of the most serious points of the whole issue, since fewer passengers means lesser demand which means further cuts down the line.

It has to be recognised, that the longer this drags on for, the worse it's going to be for the company long term, and that is going to effect ALL staff, everybody needs to work together and see the bigger picture, both management and staff of all grades alike and make an agreement, before the situation worsens and requires an even bigger set of cost saving measures.

LXFlyer

TimeToShine wrote: »

What on earth makes you think a private company would run buses that nearly always finish their route completely empty or with a small handful of people on them? They would have express routes terminating at the most popular destinations, which is usually the city centre.

Again, I will repeat, the NTA dictate what service levels will have to be provided on PSO routes - not the operator.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

The fact that customers are abandoning Dublin Bus because of the industrial action, is one of the most serious points of the whole issue

in fairness i would say it was only a few petty people who stopped using dublin bus because of the industrial action, the rest of those who have would have done so anyway IMO.

devnull wrote: »

everybody needs to work together and see the bigger picture, both management and staff of all grades alike and make an agreement, before the situation worsens and requires an even bigger set of cost saving measures.

i agree and i think this will happen

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

in fairness i would say it was only a few petty people who stopped using dublin bus because of the industrial action, the rest of those who have would have done so anyway IMO.

It's actually very serious, since for each customer who stops using Dublin Bus who is a regular commuter on their services 5 days a week, it would be approx 1,000 euro a year of cash lost to the company. If it's 500 people that stop using Dublin Bus, it's another half a million that needs to be found somewhere else.

Dublin Bus needs any passenger it can get right now and can't afford to lose any no matter if they are petty or not. If the staff honestly don't care if passengers are abandoning them or not, then clearly they aren't looking at the bigger picture regarding the future of the company and that would have me very worried for it's future.

It just re-enforces my view that there are too many people in the company who have the view that the customer, and retaining and growing their customer base does not matter, and these are the kind of people that we could do without in the company, since as the report says, passengers will ultimately decide the fate of Dublin Bus and if people don't start to wake up to this fact soon, then sadly you're all going to be doomed long term.

paulieb

Most of the people posting here use a bus once or twice a day or are a bus enthusiast.
I am driver so I know a little more that most here. I can tell you somethings with absolute certainty, and one of them is that outside of the main routes, (145,46a,7) buses are running practically empty after 8pm.
Some here say that's no problem, a private operator will run them for a flat fee of the NTA.
Maybe for a year, but then shareholders in the company will demand growth and it will not be forthcoming. Thats capitalism for you,the nerve of them.
They will pull out and these non performing routes will be put on the market again with better terms and higher payment from the NTA. The fares will go up and the service will be cut back even more.