Heineken & Amlin Cup 2013/14 General Discussion

P_1

I'd wager a guess that Racing, Montpellier, Toulon and Stade Francais would be the most likely to suffer from a 'backer goes bust/gets bored' type meltdown a la Leeds Utd. Toulouse and Clermont are backed by fairly large companies who have a long history of being involved with the clubs (Airbus and Michelin)

thomond2006

One thing I always wondered is why Castres' finances have been limited compared to the 'big clubs', Pierre Fabre is a multinational giant. They had €2bn in turnover in 2012!

As long as the rich backers are happy to basically get no return on their investment then it can continue indefinitely.

Are you sure they get no ROI? That's a sweeping statement.

The signings made by French clubs in recent years makes you wonder - just how sustainable are they? Can they all sustain that level of salary bill?

TV money for the Top14 is considerable indeed, I'll try to fish out the figure.

Tox56

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

As long as the rich backers are happy to basically get no return on their investment then it can continue indefinitely. I have no problem with it from a french league point of view but its the effect it has on the european cup and the widening gap between clubs with massive budgets(france),clubs with salary caps(england)and teams with little money(scots,welsh) that i dont like-its just become like football.

Northampton have just brought in Alex Corbisiero, George North and Kahn Fotuali'i. That's better recruitment than almost any team in Europe, salary cap or no salary cap.

We are just going to see a european cup where the teams with the biggest budget wins the thing every year.Leinster too are a pretty rich team with a big squad so i would include them too.
Chances of an ospreys,harlequins winning now are pretty small which is a shame.

Leinster aren't in the same stratosphere as some of the French clubs, I have no idea how you can place them in the same category.

Mike McCarthy and Zane Kirchner were Leinster's 'big' signings this year, how you can compare that to the likes of Racing bringing in Dan Lydiate/Jamie Roberts/Jonny Sexton astounds me.

The other current "imports" in the Leinster squad:

Jimmy Gopperth
Michael Bent
Andrew Goodman
Quinn Roux
Richardt Strauss

If Leinster win the H Cup this year their budget hasn't bought them the cup, any such suggestion is nonsense.

P_1

thomond2006 wrote: »

One thing I always wondered is why Castres' finances have been limited compared to the 'big clubs', Pierre Fabre is a multinational giant. They had €2bn in turnover in 2012!

Aren't Pierre Fabre just their shirt sponsor though?

thomond2006

P_1 wrote: »

Aren't Pierre Fabre just their shirt sponsor though?

No, Pierre Fabre (RIP) owned the club. He took it over in 1988: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castres_Olympique

P_1

thomond2006 wrote: »

No, Pierre Fabre (RIP) owned the club. He took it over in 1988: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castres_Olympique

Ah didn't realise that. To be fair they haven't exactly been averse to breaking out the checkbook when required though. Masoe, Wannenburg and Kockett spring to mind

thomond2006

P_1 wrote: »

Ah didn't realise that. To be fair they haven't exactly been averse to breaking out the checkbook when required though. Masoe, Wannenburg and Kockett spring to mind

Off topic but Wannenburg was voted Castres' worst signing of last season on Rugby Transferts.

Got red carded in his second game and only made two Top14 starts: http://www.lnr.fr/pedrie-wannenburg,13379-2012-2013.html

Castres' backrow is excellent though so he's got serious competition to deal with.

molloyjh

who_me wrote: »

The signings made by French clubs in recent years makes you wonder - just how sustainable are they? Can they all sustain that level of salary bill? Lots of the French clubs are from small-ish cities or towns, so perhaps are overly reliant on outside investment. But they can't all be successful..

Either French teams are going to monster the Euro competitions, or suffer a financial collapse in a few years time. Either way, I'd be a little worried for Euro rugby.

The sugar daddy model isn't sustainable. Eventually they lose interest or get fed up pumping money in for little to no reward. There are only 3 trophies available to them in any given year and at least 1 of those they don't care about. They can't be spread around sufficiently between 6 or 7 clubs with rich backers. And without the same global popularity as soccer the chances of drawing in a wealthy Russian, Arab or American backer are fairly slim.

The French are also shooting themselves in the foot by bringing in so many foreign players at the expense of developing their own talent.

desertcircus

Rightwing wrote: »

The bookies have
Castres @ 55/1
Ospreys @ 40/1
Saints @ 28/1

If you think any of those teams are doing anything more than making up the numbers fill your boots.

However, I would suggest you don't. Even at those massive odds, it's a complete waste of money imho.

Okay, I'll bite. Those figures indicate 40/1 average odds for the non-top-tier teams in the group, even given Leinster's presence. What are the comparable figures for the other groups?

who_me

molloyjh wrote: »

The sugar daddy model isn't sustainable. Eventually they lose interest or get fed up pumping money in for little to no reward. There are only 3 trophies available to them in any given year and at least 1 of those they don't care about. They can't be spread around sufficiently between 6 or 7 clubs with rich backers. And without the same global popularity as soccer the chances of drawing in a wealthy Russian, Arab or American backer are fairly slim.

The French are also shooting themselves in the foot by bringing in so many foreign players at the expense of developing their own talent.

That's how I see it. If I had a few tens of millions of disposable income (just checked.. a few tens of millions short..) I'd have no problem investing it in my favourite club, but I would expect some kind of results in return. And there are limits to everyone's pockets.

The danger is you just end up in an escalating financial war where some clubs could still end up with no trophies in spite of spending millions in recruitment.

molloyjh

who_me wrote: »

That's how I see it. If I had a few tens of millions of disposable income (just checked.. a few tens of millions short..) I'd have no problem investing it in my favourite club, but I would expect some kind of results in return. And there are limits to everyone's pockets.

The danger is you just end up in an escalating financial war where some clubs could still end up with no trophies in spite of spending millions in recruitment.

And potentially going bust when sugar daddy decides his done enough and moves on.

awec

The way it's going it's only a matter of time until rugby ends up like football and you have players earning multi-millions a year, being bought and sold, you're paying 50 euro per-game and clubs start to dictate to the unions.

Podge_irl

awec wrote: »

The way it's going it's only a matter of time until rugby ends up like football and you have players earning multi-millions a year, being bought and sold, you're paying 50 euro per-game and clubs start to dictate to the unions.

I don't really agree. There just isn't the same interest or commercial weight behind it. Obviously things have been ratcheting up a lot of late, but pro rugby is still quite new comparatively and I think it'll start to settle down soon.

If they start charging 50 euro per game for domestic teams, people simply won't go. Only a tiny fraction of players have ever been paid even close to 1m a year. I don't like the moneybags French teams, but even that may subside slightly with the new JIFF rules.

WorldRugby99

Tox56 wrote: »

Northampton have just brought in Alex Corbisiero, George North and Kahn Fotuali'i. That's better recruitment than almost any team in Europe, salary cap or no salary cap.



Leinster aren't in the same stratosphere as some of the French clubs, I have no idea how you can place them in the same category.

Mike McCarthy and Zane Kirchner were Leinster's 'big' signings this year, how you can compare that to the likes of Racing bringing in Dan Lydiate/Jamie Roberts/Jonny Sexton astounds me.

The other current "imports" in the Leinster squad:

Jimmy Gopperth
Michael Bent
Andrew Goodman
Quinn Roux
Richardt Strauss

If Leinster win the H Cup this year their budget hasn't bought them the cup, any such suggestion is nonsense.

for past few seasons leinster have had the first choice irish props,2 first choice back rows,the first choice fly half,both centres and fullback.Add to that many irish national team second choice players and the odd foreign star like nacewa and elsom and thats a pretty incredible squad.A team like that ought to be getting to heinken semis and beyond.I struggle to believe star names like healy,o brien,heaslip,sexton,o driscoll,kearney havent been on good salaries.
Im not saying their budget has neccesarily bought success but with the players they have success has been inevitable. The point im making is that the teams that possess the most internationals win whether it be leinster or toulon and that you cant compare teams like leinster,toulon to teams like exeter or connacht-they are worlds apart.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

Northampton have just brought in Alex Corbisiero, George North and Kahn Fotuali'i. That's better recruitment than almost any team in Europe, salary cap or no salary cap.



Leinster aren't in the same stratosphere as some of the French clubs, I have no idea how you can place them in the same category.

Mike McCarthy and Zane Kirchner were Leinster's 'big' signings this year, how you can compare that to the likes of Racing bringing in Dan Lydiate/Jamie Roberts/Jonny Sexton astounds me.

The other current "imports" in the Leinster squad:

Jimmy Gopperth
Michael Bent
Andrew Goodman
Quinn Roux
Richardt Strauss

If Leinster win the H Cup this year their budget hasn't bought them the cup, any such suggestion is nonsense.

Leinster do a lot better financially than most sides around and have done since before they were successful even. That can't be ignored. We're not buying in lots of imports, but our financial situation is a lot more comfortable than most sides in Europe and our success has certainly stemmed from that.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Leinster do a lot better financially than most sides around and have done since before they were successful even. That can't be ignored. We're not buying in lots of imports, but our financial situation is a lot more comfortable than most sides in Europe and our success has certainly stemmed from that.

Again, not in the same stratosphere as the French clubs. We can generally sustain what we have with big internationals but we're not bringing in the Habana's and North's of the world

conf101

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

for past few seasons leinster have had the first choice irish props,2 first choice back rows,the first choice fly half,both centres and fullback.Add to that many irish national team second choice players and the odd foreign star like nacewa and elsom and thats a pretty incredible squad.A team like that ought to be getting to heinken semis and beyond.I struggle to believe star names like healy,o brien,heaslip,sexton,o driscoll,kearney havent been on good salaries.
Im not saying their budget has neccesarily bought success but with the players they have success has been inevitable. The point im making is that the teams that possess the most internationals win whether it be leinster or toulon and that you cant compare teams like leinster,toulon to teams like exeter or connacht-they are worlds apart.

The difference there is (and it's a massive one) that Toulon and the likes (probably excluding Toulouse) have bought their squad of internationals. The vast majority of Leinster's internationals have come through the Leinster ranks. They were Leinster players before they were internationals, not the other way around. They always add a few (2/3) foreign internationals but that's the same for a lot of teams.

Leinster are better off financially than a fair few European clubs but to compare them to the top French clubs is madness.

Rightwing

conf101 wrote: »

The difference there is (and it's a massive one) that Toulon and the likes (probably excluding Toulouse) have bought their squad of internationals. The vast majority of Leinster's internationals have come through the Leinster ranks. They were Leinster players before they were internationals, not the other way around. They always add a few (2/3) foreign internationals but that's the same for a lot of teams.

Leinster are better off financially than a fair few European clubs but to compare them to the top French clubs is madness.

That's true. The danger teams like Leinster/Munster have is they have to try and compete with these teams in terms of wages. That's where the real danger lies.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

Again, not in the same stratosphere as the French clubs. We can generally sustain what we have with big internationals but we're not bringing in the Habana's and North's of the world

Yet we have guarranteed European rugby each year and a very large population of very strong rugby players funnelled into our academy on a geographical basis, through an excellent system funded by the union. Something the French clubs don't have and you can't really put a price on that. I would much rather be a team who can count on developing a Jonny Sexton every few years than one who can count on signing one.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yet we have guarranteed European rugby each year and a very large population of very strong rugby players funnelled into our academy on a geographical basis, through an excellent system funded by the union. Something the French clubs don't have and you can't really put a price on that. I would much rather be a team who can count on developing a Jonny Sexton every few years than one who can count on signing one.

What's your point here? We have an excellent academy and although I'm sure that costs money to fund pretty much every club in Europe has an academy, we just have a very large rugby playing population of young players to choose from through the Leinster schools cup in particular and obviously the clubs too, which are all very strong at the moment.

.ak

I think the point was the OP states Leinster have the same finances as the big clubs. They clearly don't. But that's not to say they're not successful by other means.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Financial budgets are far from the be all and end all in rugby. If that was the case we would have had French dominance in the HC over the last ten years

Which is why I find it mystifying that people are suggesting that it will start now when French clubs have always been big spenders

former legend

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Financial budgets are far from the be all and end all in rugby. If that was the case we would have had French dominance in the HC over the last ten years

Which is why I find it mystifying that people are suggesting that it will start now when French clubs have always been big spenders

I think that we're into a new situation now though; previously it was always the case that the French teams would be mainly populated by French players with a handful of international guys, whereas now the likes of Racing and Toulon will be dominated by foreigners. The first choice Racing XV is likely to have five Frenchmen and even fewer at Toulon.

At the same time, the Irish provinces find themselves unable to attract the top names from the southern hemisphere like they used to, so it is very possible there'll be a shift.

e.g; the Toulouse team that won the HC in 2010 had 12 Frenchmen in the XV and 5 on the bench. The Toulon team of 2013 had 4 + 4.

Rightwing

former legend wrote: »

I think that we're into a new situation now though; previously it was always the case that the French teams would be mainly populated by French players with a handful of international guys, whereas now the likes of Racing and Toulon will be dominated by foreigners. The first choice Racing XV is likely to have five Frenchmen and even fewer at Toulon.

At the same time, the Irish provinces find themselves unable to attract the top names from the southern hemisphere like they used to, so it is very possible there'll be a shift.

Indeed, and therein lies the subtle but critical difference.

who_me

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't really agree. There just isn't the same interest or commercial weight behind it. Obviously things have been ratcheting up a lot of late, but pro rugby is still quite new comparatively and I think it'll start to settle down soon.

If they start charging 50 euro per game for domestic teams, people simply won't go. Only a tiny fraction of players have ever been paid even close to 1m a year. I don't like the moneybags French teams, but even that may subside slightly with the new JIFF rules.

That would be the good/optimistic scenario. There's a serious 'boom' in French domestic rugby at the moment, and as we well know people can lose the run of themselves and make rosy long-term forecasts and plans based on the tip of the boom. It wouldn't surprise me if lots of teams could get away with charging 50 euros now, but if/when times get tougher that wouldn't hold and anyone who made salary/stadium plans based on that kind of income would then be screwed. That's my bad/pessimistic scenario.

who_me

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Financial budgets are far from the be all and end all in rugby. If that was the case we would have had French dominance in the HC over the last ten years

Which is why I find it mystifying that people are suggesting that it will start now when French clubs have always been big spenders

I don't recall any period in my lifetime where French clubs could sign the very top talent from other 6N sides (Sexton from Ireland, Halfpenny & Roberts from Wales etc.) and the SH. To me, it's very new.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

There may be more of an influx of Welsh players in the top14, but is that enough to suddenly see them dominate European rugby? Narp

thomond2006

The key advantage to the Irish sides (not including Connacht) is the top tier seeding. Avoiding Toulon, Toulouse and Clermont until the knockout stages is a big plus.

I've said it before and I think it's worth saying again, if the French national team continue to underachieve then there will be (IMO) a reaction between the FFR and LNR with the JIFF quota being increased. A strong national team would bring more casual watchers into the club game, I'd say even Mad Mourad would acknowledge that. While the JIFF doesn't affect the strength of the starting XVs, it does affect strength in depth. I believe the Irish sides can compete and have shown they can compete when in comes to first teams, but the French sides have the finances to invest in stronger squads.

There may be more of an influx of Welsh players in the top14, but is that enough to suddenly see them dominate European rugby? Narp

Jamie Roberts is in for a wake up call. He hasn't had a 20+ game season for a couple of years and is very injury prone.