Loyalism in a United ireland

Maximuspullo.

I would assume there would be an uprising in rural Ulster against the invaders if it happened.

Neo Unionist

WakeUp wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest OP what type of united Ireland do you envisage when asking the above question?..Neo unionists subscribe to an idea of a united Ireland being reabsorbed into the United Kingdom. If my understanding of that is wrong please feel free to correct me on it. There will always be an element within Loyalism who would never accept a united Ireland completely independent from Britain, and in turn they would pose a potential threat & security risk. If a united Ireland came about with some form of link maintained with Britain I dont think Loyalists would pose as much of a problem as one without a link.
Depending on which type of united Ireland you envisage leads down two completely different paths when assertaining the potential Loyalist terrorist response & threat and in turn our response. Certain sections of Loyalism lost the plot recently turning animalistic in their nature when refused permission to march down a road. If thats an indicator of future behaviour from a certain element it really doesnt matter if the police can deal with it or not. They would be a threat that isnt the question. What would their capability/support/ability to operate entail. Strategy and tactics how would they roll. These are the type of questions that would need answering. I think the question of a united Ireland should be left to the generations in waiting, if its rushed or forced it will only lead to problems. It needs to work in the real world.

A republican United Ireland. See that's the thing, I don't understand how Loyalists will ever be able to sustain any type of campaign since nationalists outnumber them 4 to 1. Judging by the population, any attempt by them to instigate a campaign would be futile since it would only be a fraction of the former IRA campaign judging by the Unionist numbers.

I don't think Loyalists were ever a realistic threat to be begin with, not in the past or even in the future.

The British Government only used that threat as an excuse to remain in Ireland.

Maximuspullo. wrote: »

I would assume there would be an uprising in rural Ulster against the invaders if it happened.

That's interesting, do you consider your nationalist neighbours in the 6 counties as invaders?

Jelle1880

Neo Unionist wrote: »

A republican United Ireland. See that's the thing, I don't understand how Loyalists will ever be able to sustain any type of campaign since nationalists outnumber them 4 to 1. Judging by the population, any attempt by them to instigate a campaign would be futile since it would only be a fraction of the former IRA campaign judging by the Unionist numbers.

I don't think Loyalists were ever a realistic threat to be begin with, not in the past or even in the future.

The British Government only used that threat as an excuse to remain in Ireland.

That's a very simplistic way of putting it, don't you think ?

Population wise you're correct with those numbers, but what matters is what part of the population is willing to turn to violence.

And somehow I think that if it comes to this it won't be as simple as a 4/1 ratio in favour of Nationalists/Republicans.

Understating the possible threat of Loyalists is silly, they've (and their counterparts) have proven in the past that the threat is very real.

Neo Unionist

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's a very simplistic way of putting it, don't you think ?

As a matter of fact I don't. Even at their peak the majority of their victims were innocent catholic civilians. And the security services turned a blind eye to a lot of their activities and at times even assisted them.

If they ever behaved the way they did during the troubles in a United Ireland I can't imagine there would be much support for them not to mention that the Irish security forces would be very quick to clamp down on them.

Besides its only a matter of time before the people in the six counties realise that a United Ireland will solve all paramilitary problems. A united Ireland will neutralise the IRA because their objectives will be achieved. The only threat that will remain will be Loyalist paramilitaries whose strength will be only a fraction of the IRAs strength considering the islands demographics. With the combined efforts of the northern police force and Gardaí, the threat will be eliminated quite fast I'd imagine.

junder

Neo Unionist wrote: »

As a matter of fact I don't. Even at their peak the majority of their victims were innocent catholic civilians. And the security services turned a blind eye to a lot of their activities and at times even assisted them.

If they ever behaved the way they did during the troubles in a United Ireland I can't imagine there would be much support for them not to mention that the Irish security forces would be very quick to clamp down on them.

Besides its only a matter of time before the people in the six counties realise that a United Ireland will solve all paramilitary problems. A united Ireland will neutralise the IRA because their objectives will be achieved. The only threat that will remain will be Loyalist paramilitaries whose strength will be only a fraction of the IRAs strength considering the islands demographics. With the combined efforts of the northern police force and Gardaí, the threat will be eliminated quite fast I'd imagine.

Mean while in the real world

Noreen1

I am pie wrote: »

Why are you trying to pigeon hole me here? Is it too challenging for you to actually answer any questions. Once more, I am explaining to you why loyalists are attached to the Somme/UVF imagery. They are ignoring the sacrifice of other Irish soldiers but I am not. It is irrelevant to what I am trying to explain to you. Happy to ignore it? No, what would you like to discuss? Tragically foolish? Not for me to say, they had their reasons and as they are now dead I wouldn't feel comfortable in dismissing them. entirely.

Once more, any comment on the existence of otherwise of these lenny murphy and co banners? Genuinely, I would want to know why they can't be addressed under current hate crime or incitement laws.

Do you condemn the pipe bombs and blast bombs and do you support the PSNI's policing approach? Do you recognise the injustice of youths throwing bombs at the police while they attempt to uphold a controversial ruling which favoured the ardoyne residents more than the OO.

The Orange Order won't flee, again, I would like that they disappeared tomorrow, but they won't. You only expose your naivety in believing that they will.

A more mature and conciliatory approach will be required if you ever want to achieve a UI. If not, perceived persecution just serves a recruiting ground for the yobs and knackers you saw dancing on top of police vans this week.

Why do you think the ruling favoured the Ardoyne residents?
It seems to me that it was a genuine attempt to facilitate both sides of the political divide?

junder wrote: »

I respect you trying to put our point across but I couldn't help notice you point about not remembering the sacrifice of the Irish volunteers, u can assure you we do. Every year at the Somme wreaths are laid not only in memory of the 36th ulster divsion but also in memory of the 10th and 16th Irish divsion by members of the PUL community who go over as part of Somme society's. on a side note I was part of the 12th parade, along and brutality hot day I can tell you. The route we take used to be contentious but now we follow a route as laid down by the Parades commission and the republican community who got thier way, we have followed this new route for years now and yet republican still saw fit to belt us with eggs and bottles done of which hit a 6 old girl who accompanied her father on the morning parade. We carried on with our 2 mile diversion so that republicans would not be offended along the 200m stretch of road that apparently is 'theirs' on the way back we where greeted by baying republican crowds as we passed the very edge of thier area, which we had no choice to do on account of thier being a river in the way. Ironically some of those shouting at us are involved in a cross community project that my band is involved in, some of them would have even been in our band hall. My 12th ended with a couple of beers in the band hall and then away home to bed since I was spent. A 14 mile march in that heat was a trail of stamina, many a time I wished for a water cannon to dose me with cold water instead I just has bottles of water which I did not so much drink as throw around myself

So, there are parades other than the Ardoyne that are contentious?

junder wrote: »

Our very existence annoys republicans. In order for the republican vision for a united ireland to be achived the loyal orders and bands need to broken as they are a thread that weaves through the PUL community and binds us together.

You know better than that Junder.
There are many flavours of Republicanism, just as there are many flavours of Unionism.

Maximuspullo. wrote: »

I would assume there would be an uprising in rural Ulster against the invaders if it happened.

Invaders? The native Irish, whose ancestors lived in the area for centuries before Ireland was invaded?
That's a very revealing description of your neighbours.

Jelle1880

Neo Unionist wrote: »

As a matter of fact I don't. Even at their peak the majority of their victims were innocent catholic civilians. And the security services turned a blind eye to a lot of their activities and at times even assisted them.

If they ever behaved the way they did during the troubles in a United Ireland I can't imagine there would be much support for them not to mention that the Irish security forces would be very quick to clamp down on them.

Besides its only a matter of time before the people in the six counties realise that a United Ireland will solve all paramilitary problems. A united Ireland will neutralise the IRA because their objectives will be achieved. The only threat that will remain will be Loyalist paramilitaries whose strength will be only a fraction of the IRAs strength considering the islands demographics. With the combined efforts of the northern police force and Gardaí, the threat will be eliminated quite fast I'd imagine.

Again: very simplistic.

First of all, there are elements in the Republican gangs that don't just want a United Ireland, they just want to hurt 'those Orange bastards'.

So even in a United Ireland I'm sure there will be elements that will be out for violence, from both sides.

You also seem to be under the impression that your average Irishman/woman will support the IRA simply because Loyalists paramilitariers would cause violence. That wasn't the case during The Troubles and I don't think it'll be the case in a UI.

[Jackass]

Loyalist agenda

1/ Antagonize Nationalists / Republicans / All of Southern Ireland.

/agenda

If they don't get to gloat, they riot. If they don't get to rub British rule in Irish faces at every single opportunity, they riot.

Don't take down our fleg! We need to fly it in the face of the 40+% who don't support it 365 days a year - our preference is the only preference! No compromise!

You must let us march through the streets of the Irish to rub in their face a 1,000 year old war! We must humiliate them and show them we are in charge! We must at all times antagonize them!

If we don't get to gloat, if we don't get to permanently throw Britishness in the face of half of the population, we will riot until we can!

junder

[Jackass] wrote: »

Loyalist agenda

1/ Antagonize Nationalists / Republicans / All of Southern Ireland.

/agenda

They're pure scumbags, nothing more. If they don't get to gloat, they riot. If they don't get to rub British rule in Irish faces at every single opportunity, they riot.

Don't take down our fleg! We need to fly it in the face of the 40+% who don't support it 365 days a year - our preference is the only preference! No compromise!

You must let us march through the streets of the Irish to rub in their face a 1,000 year old war! We must humiliate them and show them we are in charge! We must at all times antagonize them!

If we don't get to gloat, if we don't get to permanently throw Britishness in the face of half of the population, we will riot until we can!

So I'm a scumbag then? Do you actually know me, met me in public, know anything about me? or are you just make a sectarian generlization? I believe it's republicans that have been rioting at the arydone shops the last few years, care to comment on that? Or is it just loyalist rioting that's bad

[Jackass]

I've removed that word from my original post, granted that's not appropriate language.

In fairness, given the history of the plantations and thievery of land and treatment of indigenous peoples, I can't see a shred of good spirit in a community who would be anything other than apologetic. Unionists are anything but.

Anywhere else in the world, Australia, Canada, USA there is an apologetic tone to similar past injustice - in the north there's an appetite to gloat and still force it into their face. It's not enough to fu*k them over, it needs to be thrown in their face forever more at every opportunity.

Yes, I think I can safely assume from your stance that you may well be a mean spirited individual who is a direct product of a hate filled, petty, pathetic community.

Jelle1880

[Jackass] wrote: »

Loyalist agenda

1/ Antagonize Nationalists / Republicans / All of Southern Ireland.

/agenda

They're pure scumbags, nothing more. If they don't get to gloat, they riot. If they don't get to rub British rule in Irish faces at every single opportunity, they riot.

Don't take down our fleg! We need to fly it in the face of the 40+% who don't support it 365 days a year - our preference is the only preference! No compromise!

You must let us march through the streets of the Irish to rub in their face a 1,000 year old war! We must humiliate them and show them we are in charge! We must at all times antagonize them!

If we don't get to gloat, if we don't get to permanently throw Britishness in the face of half of the population, we will riot until we can!

Both sides do this.

The rest of your post smells of a massive inferiority complex tbh.

As for your claim that all they want is antagonise Irish people:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0706/460939-orange-order-donegal/

The only OO parade in the Republic is in Donegal, and year by year it goes on without any incident.

As far as I know your average Irish person doesn't care that much whether they march or not.

[Jackass]

For clarification, I was mainly talking about nationalist community in the North who hold Irish citizenship.

People in the south generally don't care about things like this, but I can see why Irish people living in Northern Ireland would not appreciate their flags being drapped in order to burn on bon fires, especially when those same people are rioting over their flag not being flown on Government buildings at all times - expecting one sort of respect for the flag they identify with, whilst showing such a crass level of contempt and hatred for the flag of those they supposedly don't antagonize and respect as dual partners in the north... This is widespread and par for the course by the way, each and every year, not an isolated incident.

junder

[Jackass] wrote: »

I've removed that word from my original post, granted that's not appropriate language.

In fairness, given the history of the plantations and thievery of land and treatment of indigenous peoples, I can't see a shred of good spirit in a community who would be anything other than apologetic. Unionists are anything but.

Anywhere else in the world, Australia, Canada, USA there is an apologetic tone to similar past injustice - in the north there's an appetite to gloat and still force it into their face. It's not enough to fu*k them over, it needs to be thrown in their face forever more at every opportunity.

Yes, I think I can safely assume from your stance that you may well be a mean spirited individual who is a direct product of a hate filled, petty, pathetic community.

In guessing you don't do irony

SoulandForm

[Jackass] wrote: »

Yes, I think I can safely assume from your stance that you may well be a mean spirited individual who is a direct product of a hate filled, petty, pathetic community.

Certainly the type of people who vote for PUP and make up the Loyal orders and band scene in Belfast could easily be described as such. However they in no way make up all or even the majority of the PUL community- they are just the ones that are best in drawing attention to themselves and making their presence felt.

Mr_Spaceman

[Jackass] wrote: »

For clarification, I was mainly talking about nationalist community in the North who hold Irish citizenship.

It's not just nationalists from Northern Ireland who hold Irish passports. Plenty of unionists hold Irish citizenship as well.

There are many shades of grey.

Neo Unionist

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Again: very simplistic.

First of all, there are elements in the Republican gangs that don't just want a United Ireland, they just want to hurt 'those Orange bastards'.

So even in a United Ireland I'm sure there will be elements that will be out for violence, from both sides.

You also seem to be under the impression that your average Irishman/woman will support the IRA simply because Loyalists paramilitariers would cause violence. That wasn't the case during The Troubles and I don't think it'll be the case in a UI.

What are you talking about? Nowhere did I say that Irish people will support the IRA. Being a nationalist does does not equate to supporting the IRA.

Sectarianism is a symptom of British rule and it's only cure is a united Ireland.

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

So I'm a scumbag then? Do you actually know me, met me in public, know anything about me? or are you just make a sectarian generlization? I believe it's republicans that have been rioting at the arydone shops the last few years, care to comment on that? Or is it just loyalist rioting that's bad

Celebrating the Williamite victory in the Jacobite wars given what that victory meant for Irish Catholics is bound to wind them up- I find it hard to believe that you are stupid, therefore what other conclusion can we come to seeing your stated aim of having your son follow your example by taking part in Orange marches that you strongly desire to maintain sectarian hatred and division in the north of Ireland?

Jelle1880

Neo Unionist wrote: »

What are you talking about? Nowhere did I say that Irish people will support the IRA. Being a nationalist does does not equate to supporting the IRA.

Sectarianism is a symptom of British rule and it's only cure is a united Ireland.

So why mention the 4-1 ratio ?
Because you definitely weren't talking about the amount of paramilitary gangs and their members, since those numbers aren't even close to that.

As for saying that sectarianism is a symptom of British rule: Absolute nonsense and it smells of justification for sectarian acts of terror by the IRA and it's offspring.

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So why mention the 4-1 ratio ?
Because you definitely weren't talking about the amount of paramilitary gangs and their members, since those numbers aren't even close to that.

As for saying that sectarianism is a symptom of British rule: Absolute nonsense and it smells of justification for sectarian acts of terror by the IRA and it's offspring.

While the PIRA did carry out sectarian acts of terror- most of their violent acts were not sectarian. They were not in essence a sectarian organization.

Violent Unionist acts however were almost purely sectarian.

And very clearly the British establishment has used divide and conquer tactics to rule its northern Irish colony though these tactics have led to a situation in which has now taken on a life of its own.

junder

Noreen1 wrote: »

Why do you think the ruling favoured the Ardoyne residents?
It seems to me that it was a genuine attempt to facilitate both sides of the political divide?



So, there are parades other than the Ardoyne that are contentious?



You know better than that Junder.
There are many flavours of Republicanism, just as there are many flavours of Unionism.



Invaders? The native Irish, whose ancestors lived in the area for centuries before Ireland was invaded?
That's a very revealing description of your neighbours.

Fair point, I should be more specific about which republicans I am talking about. In fairness I have met some genuine republicans in real life

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Celebrating the Williamite victory in the Jacobite wars given what that victory meant for Irish Catholics is bound to wind them up- I find it hard to believe that you are stupid, therefore what other conclusion can we come to seeing your stated aim of having your son follow your example by taking part in Orange marches that you strongly desire to maintain sectarian hatred and division in the north of Ireland?

I wonder how Catholics Actully understand the williamite war, I wonder how many know how many Catholics made up Williams army, I wonder if the knew the Williams elite Dutch blue guard where exclusively catholic or that the pope supported Williams endeavours. Personnly I don't buy into the prod vrs catholic view of the battle of the boyne

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

I wonder how Catholics Actully understand the williamite war, I wonder how many know how many Catholics made up Williams army, I wonder if the knew the Williams elite Dutch blue guard where exclusively catholic or that the pope supported Williams endeavours. Personnly I don't buy into the prod vrs catholic view of the battle of the boyne

I wasnt talking about Catholics in general- I was talking about Irish Catholics. You know the consequences that the Williamite victory had for them and you know that is the reason why Orange Order parades cause such trouble and why the Orange Order arouses such strong feelings.

The Pope did not support William's endeavours. That is a myth.

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

I wasnt talking about Catholics in general- I was talking about Irish Catholics. You know the consequences that the Williamite victory had for them and you know that is the reason why Orange Order parades cause such trouble and why the Orange Order arouses such strong feelings.

The Pope did not support William's endeavours. That is a myth.

It's No myth, the battle of the boyne was a European war that happened to be fought on this island, 'James the ****' had allied himself with king Louis of France, since this was still the age of the Devine right of rule king Louis had designs on making himself the supreme ruler political and spiritual leader of Europe, he had designs on making himself pope and moving the Vatican to France, the pope like any political leader of the time in his position made allies of those ranged against king Louis, which included William

[Jackass]

junder wrote: »

In guessing you don't do irony

Even your "location" makes me laugh: United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland It's just so pathetic and funny in a sad way. Like the point needs to be rammed home, it's not incorrect, but it's indicative of all the things I've been saying about the pathetic grasping at everything British and nothing matters as long as there's union jacks lining the streets, lest anyone forget.

What would you do without the Irish? Your life would be awful meaningless without that "war" up there.

[Jackass]

Mr_Spaceman wrote: »

It's not just nationalists from Northern Ireland who hold Irish passports. Plenty of unionists hold Irish citizenship as well.

There are many shades of grey.

Well I will take your word for it, but obviously the point I'm making is the people who identify their nationality as Irish / are nationalistic.

Mr_Spaceman

[Jackass] wrote: »

Well I will take your word for it, but obviously the point I'm making is the people who identify their nationality as Irish / are nationalistic.

I identify myself as Irish and I have absolutely no appetite for a united Ireland.

bilston

[Jackass] wrote: »

I can't see a shred of good spirit in a community who would be anything other than apologetic. Unionists are anything but.

a hate filled, petty, pathetic community.

Fairly sweeping statements there Jackass. There is hatred on both sides up here but it is a minority of people who have that be they Unionist, Loyalist, Nationalist or Republican. You just cant judge a whole community on the actions of a few hundred morons out rioting.

Anyway I finally have an explanation for your dislike of Paddy Jackson Jackass...

Neo Unionist

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So why mention the 4-1 ratio ?
Because you definitely weren't talking about the amount of paramilitary gangs and their members, since those numbers aren't even close to that.

As for saying that sectarianism is a symptom of British rule: Absolute nonsense and it smells of justification for sectarian acts of terror by the IRA and it's offspring.

Why do you think I mentioned the 4.1 ratio? Unionists only make up a population of 900,000 if even that. The remaining population of Ireland is 5 -6 times that. The iRA have traditionally drawn support from all 32 counties. Where have ulster terrorists drawn their support from? Cork and Kerry I suppose?

The whole Loyalist/Orange Order thing is a sideshow distraction to justify British rule.

Jelle1880

Neo Unionist wrote: »

Why do you think I mentioned the 4.1 ratio? Unionists only make up a population of 900,000 if even that. The remaining population of Ireland is 5 -6 times that. The iRA have traditionally drawn support from all 32 counties. Where have ulster terrorists drawn their support from? Cork and Kerry I suppose?

You said that if violence erupted that the republicans would outnumber the loyalists 4-1, due to the population of the RoI vs that of NI.

There is nothing to back that up, it didn't happen in The Troubles since most normal people wanted to stay as far away as possible from it all.

And there is also nothing to point out that it would happen like that in modern times.

[Jackass]

Mr_Spaceman wrote: »

I identify myself as Irish and I have absolutely no appetite for a united Ireland.

Fair enough, well then you don't fall under the bracket I identified above then.

Might I ask though, how do you feel about unionist insistence on marching in predominantly Irish parts of the North. Or the tradition of burning the Irish flag. Or the riots on city hall over the decision to not fly the union jack every day of the year? Do you feel these are solely motivated by the desire to disrespect and humiliate?

Do you feel polarized and that the unionists are fighting a war with the establishment, or do you feel it's as much nationalist / republican vs Unionists as it ever was.

Basically, I suppose what I'm saying is do you think the nationalist side of the North have mostly moved on and are looking to the future, whereas the Unionists are more and more becoming the predominant trouble makers based largely around not getting absolutely everything their own way with no empathy for the other half they share Northern Ireland with.

Is the contempt towards the Irish as vile and hostile as it ever was?

And would you say the majority of trouble caused by the Irish side of the North is usually in reaction to provocative musings from the unionist side?