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Loyalism in a United ireland

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    #122
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    junder wrote: »
    It's No myth, the battle of the boyne was a European war that happened to be fought on this island, 'James the ****' had allied himself with king Louis of France, since this was still the age of the Devine right of rule king Louis had designs on making himself the supreme ruler political and spiritual leader of Europe, he had designs on making himself pope and moving the Vatican to France, the pope like any political leader of the time in his position made allies of those ranged against king Louis, which included William

    LOL at the underlined!

    "The other great myth, that the Vatican celebrated the defeat of the Irish Jacobites, is also misleading. Pope Alexander VIII was dismayed by the reverse suffered by the Catholic Irish, but as an adherent of the League of Augsburg, in opposition to the Gallican pretensions of Louis XIV, he was obliged to go through some perfunctory congratulatory gestures towards a prince who was technically an ally."

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100047172/king-billy-on-a-white-horse-could-ulsters-orangemen-at-least-get-their-own-mythology-right/

    Still you are deliberately refusing to address the point raised- given the absolutely grave consequences for Catholic Ireland from the Williamite victory the fact of someone in Ireland celebrating it means that they do so to send out a clear message to Irish Catholics today.


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    #123
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    LOL at the underlined!

    "The other great myth, that the Vatican celebrated the defeat of the Irish Jacobites, is also misleading. Pope Alexander VIII was dismayed by the reverse suffered by the Catholic Irish, but as an adherent of the League of Augsburg, in opposition to the Gallican pretensions of Louis XIV, he was obliged to go through some perfunctory congratulatory gestures towards a prince who was technically an ally."

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100047172/king-billy-on-a-white-horse-could-ulsters-orangemen-at-least-get-their-own-mythology-right/

    Still you are deliberately refusing to address the point raised- given the absolutely grave consequences for Catholic Ireland from the Williamite victory the fact of someone in Ireland celebrating it means that they do so to send out a clear message to Irish Catholics today.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/events/battle_of_the_boyne

    "William is celebrated to this day as a champion of Protestantism, but he was nonetheless backed by the head of the Catholic Church, Pope Alexander VIII. The Pope was part of a ‘Grand Alliance’ against Louis XIV’s warring in Europe and supported William’s reconquest of Ireland."


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    #124
    getzls
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 806 ✭✭✭getzls


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    While the PIRA did carry out sectarian acts of terror- most of their violent acts were not sectarian.


    .

    No indeed. Most of their bomb attacks were not sectarian.

    They were keen to kill people of any religion or none.


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    #125
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    getzls wrote: »
    No indeed. Most of their bomb attacks were not sectarian.

    They were keen to kill people of any religion or none.

    Yet you cannot ignore the fact that Loyalism itself brought on the troubles and that 2 years after the UK government seriously began to do something about discrimination and give equal treatment to Catholic schools the PIRA declared their ceasefire. You also have to remember that there was a mass Unionist movement against the Anglo-Irish Agreement because a lot of Unionists prefered to have the Troubles rather than behave like decent human beings.


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    #126
    Neo Unionist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭Neo Unionist


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    You said that if violence erupted that the republicans would outnumber the loyalists 4-1, due to the population of the RoI vs that of NI.

    There is nothing to back that up, it didn't happen in The Troubles since most normal people wanted to stay as far away as possible from it all.

    And there is also nothing to point out that it would happen like that in modern times.

    No what I said was that Ireland was partitioned because a percentage of the Unionist population threatened violence. It was a threat that Nationalists could have faced and easily defeated since they outnumber Unionists. The same applies today.


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    #127
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Neo Unionist wrote: »
    No what I said was that Ireland was partitioned because a percentage of the Unionist population threatened violence. It was a threat that Nationalists could have faced and easily defeated since they outnumber Unionists. The same applies today.

    So why didn't they ?

    You seem to be under the assumption that all Irish people would support the Nationalist cause if violence erupted again, there's nothing to back that up and no precedent.

    So either you're saying that Nationalist organisations would outnumber the Loyalists 4-1, or you're claiming that Irish citizens would support Nationalists given the population difference.

    Neither of which are true.


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    #128
    Neo Unionist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭Neo Unionist


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    So why didn't they ?

    You seem to be under the assumption that all Irish people would support the Nationalist cause if violence erupted again, there's nothing to back that up and no precedent.

    So either you're saying that Nationalist organisations would outnumber the Loyalists 4-1, or you're claiming that Irish citizens would support Nationalists given the population difference.

    Neither of which are true.

    What you don't understand is that Irish people are expected to believe that Loyalists, who draw their support from a community of 900,000 people, can match the capabilities of the IRA, an organisation that has drawn its membership from all 32 counties of Ireland and abroad. I'm afraid the numbers do not add up. Loyalists never posed a threat to Home Rule and do not pose a threat to a future United Ireland.

    Therefore the partition of Ireland was never justified.


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    #129
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Jelle1880


    I do understand your point, but there is nothing to back it up.

    Surely if the IRA would have such a broad support they would have already succeeded in their goal(s) ?


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    #130
    getzls
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 806 ✭✭✭getzls


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Yet you cannot ignore the fact that Loyalism itself brought on the troubles and that 2 years after the UK government seriously began to do something about discrimination and give equal treatment to Catholic schools the PIRA declared their ceasefire. You also have to remember that there was a mass Unionist movement against the Anglo-Irish Agreement because a lot of Unionists prefered to have the Troubles rather than behave like decent human beings.

    Yes the Unionist goverment were largely to blame for the troubles.
    Most fair minded Unionist will at least partly agree to that.
    There was discrimination.

    You have to allow for the fact that since the formation of N.I. the Unionists were under threat or attack from Republican terrorists.

    Also a hostile Irish Goverment.


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