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Loyalism in a United ireland

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    #62
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,769 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    junder wrote: »
    Our very existence annoys republicans. In order for the republican vision for a united ireland to be achived the loyal orders and bands need to broken as they are a thread that weaves through the PUL community and binds us together.

    Sorry but the existence of the "Loyal" Orders annoy hundreds of thousands of Unionists as well.


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    #63
    I am pie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭I am pie


    SamHall wrote: »
    The orange order had one of its main parades in Rashsrkin, a predominantly nationalist village in county Antrim.

    Quite close to the predominantly loyalist areas of Cullybackey, Ballymoney and Ballymena. For some reason they chose Rasharkin though.



    Name me one parade/commemoration event where republicans march on loyalist areas proclaiming victory over the unionist community?



    So they had 500 other parades to choose from, but this particular one was the most important one?



    Have we proof of this?

    Sorry, proof of what exactly?


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    #64
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    You have spoken here sympathetically of David Irvine and if you have done so in real life I would strongly suspect that not a lot of people who say anything nice about her around you. We shall though wont we?

    I knew a David personnly and he was better recieved in east belfast then noami ever was or will be, if he was alive I doubt she would have even got a seat on the first place. However as somebody who is from the PUL community the chances are I am going to have a better insight into the thinking of that community then say a fanatical republican such as yourself


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    #65
    I am pie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭I am pie


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Here for starters- http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/20-years-on-death-of-a-uvf-killer-still-looms-large-in-loyalist-memory-28551805.html

    Loyalists have been calling on facebook for a new armed campaign and a sectarian cleansing of the occupied territory since the fleg mess started- of course the UK state is not going to do anything about that unlike on the UK mainland where they have jailed people for burning their vile poppy and posting pictures of it on social media. The British know that they need Loyalists, and that they need to keep them ignorant which is why they have been continually running down the level of education offered in state schools to the ground.

    Loyalists respect force and strength, they see compromise as weakness. That is something that the vast majority of other Irish people, particularly those in the south have not copped on to.

    Ok, 1 from 2010, should not have been displayed.

    Any from 2013? I suggest you are exaggerating the Lenny Murphy, Billy Wright claims and in doing so suggesting that the PSNI would be complicit in allowing these to pass.

    Which, they are not.

    Again. Any comment on the blast bombs and pipe bombs?

    What is your position on the PSNI policing of the parades?


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    #66
    Cork24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭Cork24


    bilston wrote: »
    Northern Ireland pay their taxes to the UK government so I think it's only right that they expect something in return..

    They could help put a stop to the Orange order march. Their is no need for such a march of pour Hate nothing more.

    people around the world looking at this will think twice about traveling to the North.

    first it was over the Union Flag now its over this, What Next Burger King closed down ?


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    #67
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    junder wrote: »
    Our very existence annoys republicans. In order for the republican vision for a united ireland to be achived the loyal orders and bands need to broken

    Ah the good old loyalist paranoia and siege mentally. It's absolute nonsense of course.


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    #68
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    bilston wrote: »
    Sorry but the existence of the "Loyal" Orders annoy hundreds of thousands of Unionists as well.

    Does it now, you have proof of this, because I saw 10's of thousands of 'unionists' from all backgrounds lining the parade route. In fact you could say that across Northern Ireland either taking part or watching the various 12th parades across the country there where 100's of thousands of unionist, are these the ones you think hate the loyal orders?


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    #69
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,769 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Cork24 wrote: »
    They could help put a stop the Orange order march. Their is no need for such a march of pour Hate nothing more.

    people around the world looking at this will think twice about traveling to the North.

    Why though, it's the actions of a couple of hundred people that we're talking about. You think everyone in Northern Ireland should be punished because of the actions of a bunch of protestors, most of whom are only protesting because they got hammered and had nothing better to do and thought it would be good craic to attack the Police. Every village has it's idiot, unfortunately our (NI's) idiots mask their muppetry under the guise of politics.


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    #70
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,769 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    junder wrote: »
    Does it now, you have proof of this, because I saw 10's of thousands of 'unionists' from all backgrounds lining the parade route. In fact you could say that across Northern Ireland either taking part or watching the various 12th parades across the country there where 100's of thousands of unionist, are these the ones you think hate the loyal orders?

    There were hundreds of thousands of Unionists who weren't lining the streets as well. Do you honestly think that Orange Order is hunky dory as it is? Do you not think that it needs to move with the times. Speaking as Unionist I find the whole thing pretty fecking embarrassing at this stage. There are many good members of the Orders and indeed outside of Belfast things are different but in Belfast in particular there is an element associated with the Orange Order that are quite frankly scary and the sooner the Orange Order dissassociate themselves from them the better. I grew up going to 12th demonstrations and enjoyed them for the day out that they were but not now, not a chance, certainly not in Belfast.


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    #71
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    I am pie wrote: »

    Again. Any comment on the blast bombs and pipe bombs?

    What is your position on the PSNI policing of the parades?

    They were wrong. The use of them was immoral.

    To a large extent I can sympathize with the PSNI on a human level but realistically its long past time that they were disbanded and the UN brought in to police the place in the short term at least.


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    #72
    Cork24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭Cork24


    bilston wrote: »
    Why though, it's the actions of a couple of hundred people that we're talking about. You think everyone in Northern Ireland should be punished because of the actions of a bunch of protestors, most of whom are only protesting because they got hammered and had nothing better to do and thought it would be good craic to attack the Police. Every village has it's idiot, unfortunately our (NI's) idiots mask their muppetry under the guise of politics.


    So you think its ok, for the order to tell people in the first place to get out on the Street, its ok for paisley to speak of hate when the Order was banned on the return route,

    if paisley is a man of the Church he would have come out and spoke against this sort of thing, Now tonight we will have fifth night of troubles.

    The PSNI aren't doing much to put a stop to this, they should bat charge, shot them with rubber bullet's and tear gas them..

    this will break them up into smaller groups enough to pick them up. without much fight.

    but what we have seen is the PSNI sitting back allowing them to rank up the N.I bill.


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    #73
    An Riabhach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭An Riabhach


    Neo Unionist wrote: »

    One of the main reasons why Ireland was partitioned into North and South was because Irish and Ulster Unionists took it upon themselvesto fight against Home Rule. On the opposite side of things you had Irish Nationalists who were going to fight for its implementation. Yet the country was divided to cater for the Unionist minority group, a group who didn’t even have exclusive representation in their own newly created state.

    So why is it that Loyalists are considered a potential threat in a United Ireland when the police are capable of dealing with the current republican threat in a divided Ireland considering that Republicans outnumber Unionists on the island?

    Was it, and is it the case that Loyalism and the threat it brings is overhyped in order to justify partition?

    The whole island of Ireland cannot vote on a United Ireland-as it stands it is down to whenever a referendum is granted to the people of Northern Ireland.Unionists still outnumber Nationalists in Northern Ireland,so if one was to take place in the near future,the Unionists would win by majority.

    There has been a lot of talk about Catholics being almost neck and neck nowadays with Protestants in N.I.,but that has little or no significance to any change,as that is merely their religious choice.The majority of these Catholics are identifying themselves as British.


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    #74
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Cork24 wrote: »
    So you think its ok, for the order to tell people in the first place to get out on the Street, its ok for paisley to speak of hate when the Order was banned on the return route,

    if paisley is a man of the Church he would have come out and spoke against this sort of thing, Now tonight we will have fifth night of troubles.

    The PSNI aren't doing much to put a stop to this, they should bat charge, shot them with rubber bullet's and tear gas them..

    this will break them up into smaller groups enough to pick them up. without much fight.

    but what we have seen is the PSNI sitting back allowing them to rank up the N.I bill.

    Why do you think the Brits brought in people from the UK mainland for the policing operation?

    Its because the PSNI as a local police force are vunerable to attack bought from Republican militarists and also from Loyalists.

    They obviously have done this to reduce the chances of something bad happening to a PSNI officer or even worse their families.

    London created the problem- let London pay for it.

    A wee bit of history for you....



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    #75
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,769 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Cork24 wrote: »
    So you think its ok, for the order to tell people in the first place to get out on the Street, its ok for paisley to speak of hate when the Order was banned on the return route,

    if paisley is a man of the Church he would have come out and spoke against this sort of thing, Now tonight we will have fifth night of troubles.

    The PSNI aren't doing much to put a stop to this, they should bat charge, shot them with rubber bullet's and tear gas them..

    this will break them up into smaller groups enough to pick them up. without much fight.

    but what we have seen is the PSNI sitting back allowing them to rank up the N.I bill.

    Well firstly I don't think Ian Paisley has anything to do with this.

    As for the PSNI they are using Baton rounds, do you want them to use live rounds instead? What's their alternative? The last time a Northern Ireland Police Force ran out of ideas it led to the deployment of thousands of British soldiers for 40 years so I imagine the PSNI are acting quite sensibly at the moment as frustrating as it may be.

    And no I don't think it's ok for the Orange Order to get people on the streets, by all means have a protest of some sort but don't whip up tensions.

    Where did you get the idea that I thought it was ok for any of the above in your post? I said it would be wrong for the UK govt to cut funding from NI but that's hardly me endorsing any of the above?


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    #76
    Cork24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭Cork24


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Why do you think the Brits brought in people from the UK mainland for the policing operation?

    Its because the PSNI as a local police force are vunerable to attack bought from Republican militarists and also from Loyalists.

    They obviously have done this to reduce the chances of something bad happening to a PSNI officer or even worse their families.

    London created the problem- let London pay for it.

    A wee bit of history for you....


    my problem is not with the PSNI, my problem is the Orange order marching and the way they act when they couldn't do a return route, knowing full well they were not meant to return down the road but they did any way and look at the trouble it brought with it.


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    #77
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,769 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    I see Willie Frazer was arrested on the Newtownards Road today...that will ease tensions...


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    #78
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    bilston wrote: »
    There were hundreds of thousands of Unionists who weren't lining the streets as well. Do you honestly think that Orange Order is hunky dory as it is? Do you not think that it needs to move with the times. Speaking as Unionist I find the whole thing pretty fecking embarrassing at this stage. There are many good members of the Orders and indeed outside of Belfast things are different but in Belfast in particular there is an element associated with the Orange Order that are quite frankly scary and the sooner the Orange Order dissassociate themselves from them the better. I grew up going to 12th demonstrations and enjoyed them for the day out that they were but not now, not a chance, certainly not in Belfast.

    Just how many unionists do you think live in Northern Ireland? You speak of hundreds of thousands of unionists hating the loyal orders ( note I said loyal orders, not just the orange order) but can provide no proof except your own anecdotal opinion, which contradicts the actual evidence of people watching or taking part in the 12th celebrations the length and breadth of Northern Ireland.
    Personnly I still enjoy the 12th in Belfast and it was great pride that my new born son got to have his first 12th which was enjoyed peacefully with friends and family on the lisburn road. I look forward to the day that my son can join me in my band to walk the 12th.


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    #79
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Cork24 wrote: »
    my problem is not with the PSNI, my problem is the Orange order marching and the way they act when they couldn't do a return route, knowing full well they were not meant to return down the road but they did any way and look at the trouble it brought with it.

    Okay fair enough.

    What about the Orange Order paying for policing and hospital costs of their carry on than rather than ordinary people in the north?


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    #80
    everdead.ie
    Registered Users Posts: 9,153 ✭✭✭everdead.ie


    bilston wrote: »
    I see Willie Frazer was arrested on the Newtownards Road today...that will ease tensions...
    In Fairness I don't think anyone actually takes note of Willie though do they?


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    #81
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    everdead.ie wrote: »
    In Fairness I don't think anyone actually takes note of Willie though do they?

    Yes they do- he was the de facto leader of the "fleg" movement. It would be incredibly naive to underestimate his political weight. His facebook page and that of the "Friends of William Frazer" have massive amounts of people supporting them.


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    #82
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    everdead.ie wrote: »
    In Fairness I don't think anyone actually takes note of Willie though do they?

    I'm no fan of wille frazer


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    #83
    Neo Unionist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭Neo Unionist


    It's about time the PSNI stood up to the Orange Order and their thuggish supporters. Loyalists need to understand that the PSNI is not there to support the Loyalist community alone but also exists to support the Nationalist community.


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    #84
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,769 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    junder wrote: »
    Just how many unionists do you think live in Northern Ireland? You speak of hundreds of thousands of unionists hating the loyal orders ( note I said loyal orders, not just the orange order) but can provide no proof except your own anecdotal opinion, which contradicts the actual evidence of people watching or taking part in the 12th celebrations the length and breadth of Northern Ireland.
    Personnly I still enjoy the 12th in Belfast and it was great pride that my new born son got to have his first 12th which was enjoyed peacefully with friends and family on the lisburn road. I look forward to the day that my son can join me in my band to walk the 12th.

    Yeah I wouldn't have any issues particularly with the Apprentice Boys.

    Well maybe we talk to different people but while some of my friends do go an watch the 12th the vast majority don't. Hate is a strong word and I'm not sure I used it (maybe I did) but I will say that a lot of Unionists are tired of the shame these contentious parades bring on the Unionist community every single year. Yes there is obvious provocation but why do the Loyalists react to it. For example why on earth did a band stop outside a Catholic Church and play the Sash? That's just stupid.

    As for how many Unionists there are in NI? Based on a population of 1.8m, I'd say 1 million or thereabouts. If 200,000 are out either marching or watching then 800,000 aren't.


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    #85
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    bilston wrote: »

    As for how many Unionists there are in NI? Based on a population of 1.8m, I'd say 1 million or thereabouts. If 200,000 are out either marching or watching then 800,000 aren't.

    Loyalists/Orange men love to present the PUL community as the borg and themselves as its collective mouthpiece, however in the real world many people in the PUL community have a strong dislike of the Order for a variety of reasons- Conservative Christians because of its Freemasonic overtones, atheists for obvious reasons, others because they feel (correctly) that it undermines stability in the place and so on and so on. Than there are others who are indifferent to it and wouldnt miss it or care if it was gone.


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    #86
    Cork24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭Cork24


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0717/462917-belfast/

    Have they not seen enough damage already done this week alone ?


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    #87
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    Cork24 wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0717/462917-belfast/

    Have they not seen enough damage already done this week alone ?

    Why does it say through the republican ardoyne area? Surely thats not correct?


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    #88
    Cork24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭Cork24


    gallag wrote: »
    Why does it say through the republican ardoyne area? Surely thats not correct?


    maybe its the only part they never got to go into.

    if they are allowed to walk again it is only showing that Belfast still hasn't changed,

    Why don't the British give us back Armagh, Down, Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh.

    They can hold onto Antrim if they like. nothing but trouble..


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    #89
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    gallag wrote: »
    Why does it say through the republican ardoyne area? Surely thats not correct?

    It's not correct, at no time has or does the parade pass through the arydone


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    #90
    Madam
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭Madam


    Yes its wrong - http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/orange-lodges-refused-permission-to-walk-past-ardoyne-shops-1-5298939


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    #91
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Neo Unionist wrote: »
    So why is it that Loyalists are considered a potential threat in a United Ireland when the police are capable of dealing with the current republican threat in a divided Ireland considering that Republicans outnumber Unionists on the island?


    Just as a matter of interest OP what type of united Ireland do you envisage when asking the above question?..Neo unionists subscribe to an idea of a united Ireland being reabsorbed into the United Kingdom. If my understanding of that is wrong please feel free to correct me on it. There will always be an element within Loyalism who would never accept a united Ireland completely independent from Britain, and in turn they would pose a potential threat & security risk. If a united Ireland came about with some form of link maintained with Britain I dont think Loyalists would pose as much of a problem as one without a link.
    Depending on which type of united Ireland you envisage leads down two completely different paths when assertaining the potential Loyalist terrorist response & threat and in turn our response. Certain sections of Loyalism lost the plot recently turning animalistic in their nature when refused permission to march down a road. If thats an indicator of future behaviour from a certain element it really doesnt matter if the police can deal with it or not. They would be a threat that isnt the question. What would their capability/support/ability to operate entail. Strategy and tactics how would they roll. These are the type of questions that would need answering. I think the question of a united Ireland should be left to the generations in waiting, if its rushed or forced it will only lead to problems. It needs to work in the real world.


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