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Loyalism in a United ireland
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In which case you'd have to ban all Republican/National flute bands and/or organisations who march through Belfast as well...
I agree that this whole idea of Republican/Nationalist and Loyalist/Unionist neighbourhoods is outdated, but if you see the yearly outbursts of violence from both sides then it's crystal clear that there are still elements who refuse to, or are simply unable to co-exist with one another.
i think it's also important to stress that the only flashpoint of violence and trouble was near the Ardoyne, more than 500 other parades all over Northern Ireland and in the Republic passed without any incident or tension.
They poison the whole atmosphere and wind up tensions across society in the north for much of the summer. They are not harmless at all. Republican flute bands maybe should banned for being crap imitations of Loyalist ones on grounds purely of taste but Easter commemorations barely register with most Unionists and Loyalists. They are very different things.0 -
What do you mean out dated? People don't have much choice. Would you feel comfortable living on the Shankill Road or vice versa
Having Pradestant streets and Kaffalick streets is a perfect example of the barbarism partition and continued occupation has foisted on north east Ulster- it simply is not civilized.0 -
In which case you'd have to ban all Republican/National flute bands and/or organisations who march through Belfast as well...
I agree that this whole idea of Republican/Nationalist and Loyalist/Unionist neighbourhoods is outdated, but if you see the yearly outbursts of violence from both sides then it's crystal clear that there are still elements who refuse to, or are simply unable to co-exist with one another.
i think it's also important to stress that the only flashpoint of violence and trouble was near the Ardoyne, more than 500 other parades all over Northern Ireland and in the Republic passed without any incident or tension.
On the parade day, yes, there were only incidents outside the Ardoyne shops. Afterwards, No. Plenty of rioting and arguably incited by the Orange Order / DUP comments about 'cultural wars'
However, the lack of perspective here is astounding, and also the lack of geographical knowledge. The shops in Ardoyne represent 100m , 500m is a stretch. No one is sealed in, that is ridiculous. There are other entry and exit points to Ardoyne. Would love to see some photos of the alleged Lenny Murphy and LVF banners. The UVF banners are in commemoration of the historic UVF batallions deployed at the somme. Sadly the name was been hijacked by gun toting murderous thugs in the 60s and 70s. If the PSNI are allowing incitement to hatred in the form of banners celebrating Stone, Murphy or Wright then something should be done. I haven't seen photos
A few hundreds wretches riot and suddenly we are proposing banning the Orange Order, doesn't seem very democratic or inclusive to me. A great way to entice the unionists into a United Ireland.
I note everyone is too busy being up and arms about idiots shouting abuse and dancing on landrovers to mention the blast bombs and pipe bombs thrown by republican youths at the police.
Yet again, the real losers here are the police. They upheld the return parade ban supported by SF and the SDLP, allowed the residents to hold a silent protest and blast the loyalists with water cannons. There reward? Pipe bombs and blast bombs from the youth of Short Strand and the Ardoyne. Terrific.
Of course, no one here has said to much about it as they are too busy being up in arms about a bunch of under educated flute players.0 -
The UVF banners are in commemoration of the historic UVF batallions deployed at the somme. Sadly the name was been hijacked by gun toting murderous thugs in the 60s and 70s. If the PSNI are allowing incitement to hatred in the form of banners celebrating Stone, Murphy or Wright then something should be done. I haven't seen photos
You are showing your ignorance here- if there is any real difference between the UVF of today and Carson's UVF it is that the one of today is more progressive and less bigoted.
You might want to observe this?
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In any United Ireland (won't happen anytime soon but never mind) the Orange Order and Loyalists would be a minority within a minority.
The best way to deal with the Orange Order and the Loyalist bands is for the political Unionism to confront them. Unfortunately the Orders are embedded in the leadership of both Unionist parties and that makes it very difficult for moderate Unionists to speak out against them.
However the bare facts speak for themselves. The Orange Order has a membership of about 75,000, yet out of a population of 1.8 million in NI, close to 1 million would regard themselves as Unionist. That means there are a hell of a lot more Unionists who are not Orange Order members and want to have nothing to do with the Orange Order than there are members of said Order. If political Unionism would start to realise this then we might get somewhere.
It's about time Robinson, Dodds and Donaldson etc stood up to the Orange Order...except the problem is they are all members so they're never going to do that...0 -
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SoulandForm wrote: »You are showing your ignorance here- if there is any real difference between the UVF of today and Carson's UVF it is that the one of today is more progressive and less bigoted.
You might want to observe this?
Nice selective quoting. Can't watch youtube in work. That really isn't the issue though is it, I could care less for the UVF and their roots. I am happy to condemn them from beginning to end. I am trying to illustrate that a lot of young men died in the Somme under that banner and that is what is being commemorated. It is an important part of the Ulster protestant identity and over the top allegiance to the crown. They feel like the paid the dues in blood in WW1 and deserve support from the rest of the Union. I am not saying I agree, I only explaining why the banners include UVF decoration.
However, I see the one way traffic is continuing here. Some salient points to reiterate.
1. Banning large organisations is a child like approach to build a shared future for any country. It won't work. Especially when that organisations is joined at the hip to the largest political party in the north, the DUP (who I also dislike intensely).
2. Are there really banners of Lenny Murphy, Billy Wright and other terrorists? If so I am concerned that the PSNI should be dealing with these. Again, I haven't seen them but if they do exist then these should be banned. Of course there should be standards about acceptable banners.
3. What agenda allows you to condemn some idiots shouting abuse but allows you to remain silent on the pipe bomb-blast bomb issue.
As i have said on another thread, if I could press a button and make them disappear I certainly would, I dislike them intensely. That can't happen and if anyone is actually serious about a United Ireland they would need to come up with some slightly more intelligent theories about how to deal with them in a future UI and how to understand why they are how they are. That's the problem in the north and with the perception of the north in RoI....both sides retreat to their comfort zones, hurl abuse and or pipe bombs and no serious thinking as to how to actually address the problem ever happens.0 -
What do you mean out dated? People don't have much choice. Would you feel comfortable living on the Shankill Road or vice versa
Given my choice of football teams, yes
What I mean with that is that it shows an outdated form of tribalism that people still cling on to 'Protestant' and 'Catholic' areas.
I don't see how this is a matter of 'not having a choice', plenty of areas in and around Belfast where catholics and protestants live together.0 -
SoulandForm wrote: »Robinson isnt.
I have a certain admiration for him as man, it is just a pity about his absolutely vile politics.
Well the problem for him then is that he alone can't take them on (if he even wanted to) as he would be torn to shreds by his own party.0 -
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They were out numbered in WWI by Irish Nationalist volunteers- but you are happy to ignore the price they paid in blood? That said the Irish volunteers were tragically foolish in what they did.
Look-Orange Order types and hardcore Loyalists once people from a Catholic background become a majority in the north will leave the country (that is not to say a United Ireland will be on the cards than at all necessarily). That is just their style. They fled the Free State even though it went over the top to reach out to them after its establishment. They leave areas in the occupied counties today when they discover they have to many Tea Eggs around them. It is just their style.
They are not now a long term problem.Nice selective quoting. Can't watch youtube in work. That really isn't the issue though is it, I could care less for the UVF and their roots. I am happy to condemn them from beginning to end. I am trying to illustrate that a lot of young men died in the Somme under that banner and that is what is being commemorated. It is an important part of the Ulster protestant identity and over the top allegiance to the crown. They feel like the paid the dues in blood in WW1 and deserve support from the rest of the Union. I am not saying I agree, I only explaining why the banners include UVF decoration.
However, I see the one way traffic is continuing here. Some salient points to reiterate.
1. Banning large organisations is a child like approach to build a shared future for any country. It won't work. Especially when that organisations is joined at the hip to the largest political party in the north, the DUP (who I also dislike intensely).
2. Are there really banners of Lenny Murphy, Billy Wright and other terrorists? If so I am concerned that the PSNI should be dealing with these. Again, I haven't seen them but if they do exist then these should be banned. Of course there should be standards about acceptable banners.
3. What agenda allows you to condemn some idiots shouting abuse but allows you to remain silent on the pipe bomb-blast bomb issue.
As i have said on another thread, if I could press a button and make them disappear I certainly would, I dislike them intensely. That can't happen and if anyone is actually serious about a United Ireland they would need to come up with some slightly more intelligent theories about how to deal with them in a future UI and how to understand why they are how they are. That's the problem in the north and with the perception of the north in RoI....both sides retreat to their comfort zones, hurl abuse and or pipe bombs and no serious thinking as to how to actually address the problem ever happens.0 -
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how can England keep puring money into N.I again the Original order has cost the State Millions on police force.
i bet the guys are on some amount of Over-Time. image any other Country getting in English, Scots and wales members of their police force over to help the PSNI
I also find it sicking the way the ira are telling Catholics not to join the PSNI or risk being killed.
its no longer the RUC.0 -
What do you mean out dated? People don't have much choice. Would you feel comfortable living on the Shankill Road or vice versa
Far from everybody on the Shankhill road is scumbag. There are a lot of decent people there. Republicans have to take some responsibility for their lack of ability to communicate the realities of the situation to these people.0 -
how can England keep puring money into N.I again the Original order has cost the State Millions on police force.
i bet the guys are on some amount of Over-Time. image any other Country getting in English, Scots and wales members of their police force over to help the PSNI
I also find it sicking the way the ira are telling Catholics not to join the PSNI or risk being killed.
its no longer the RUC.
Far be it from me to defend the IRA, but it's the Dissidents telling and threatening Catholics not to join the PSNI. They're doing it for their own aims. There is absolutely no reason in the world for Catholics or anyone to fear the PSNI, the Dissidents just want to de-normalise Northern Ireland as much as possible and this is one way of doing it.
As for the policing, I don't think it's that unusual for UK police forces to help each other out albeit maybe not on this scale. And finally the UK government will continue to spend money in Northern Ireland not least because the people of Northern Ireland pay their taxes to the UK government so I think it's only right that they expect something in return. Sure NI gets more than it gives but that's probably the same for every part of the UK bar London and the South East of England which is in a completely different league economically to the rest of the UK.0 -
SoulandForm wrote: »They were out numbered in WWI by Irish Nationalist volunteers- but you are happy to ignore the price they paid in blood? That said the Irish volunteers were tragically foolish in what they did.
Look-Orange Order types and hardcore Loyalists once people from a Catholic background become a majority in the north will leave the country (that is not to say a United Ireland will be on the cards than at all necessarily). That is just their style. They fled the Free State even though it went over the top to reach out to them after its establishment. They leave areas in the occupied counties today when they discover they have to many Tea Eggs around them. It is just their style.
They are not now a long term problem.
Why are you trying to pigeon hole me here? Is it too challenging for you to actually answer any questions. Once more, I am explaining to you why loyalists are attached to the Somme/UVF imagery. They are ignoring the sacrifice of other Irish soldiers but I am not. It is irrelevant to what I am trying to explain to you. Happy to ignore it? No, what would you like to discuss? Tragically foolish? Not for me to say, they had their reasons and as they are now dead I wouldn't feel comfortable in dismissing them. entirely.
Once more, any comment on the existence of otherwise of these lenny murphy and co banners? Genuinely, I would want to know why they can't be addressed under current hate crime or incitement laws.
Do you condemn the pipe bombs and blast bombs and do you support the PSNI's policing approach? Do you recognise the injustice of youths throwing bombs at the police while they attempt to uphold a controversial ruling which favoured the ardoyne residents more than the OO.
The Orange Order won't flee, again, I would like that they disappeared tomorrow, but they won't. You only expose your naivety in believing that they will.
A more mature and conciliatory approach will be required if you ever want to achieve a UI. If not, perceived persecution just serves a recruiting ground for the yobs and knackers you saw dancing on top of police vans this week.0 -
Who was walking through nationalist areas ?
The orange order had one of its main parades in Rashsrkin, a predominantly nationalist village in county Antrim.
Quite close to the predominantly loyalist areas of Cullybackey, Ballymoney and Ballymena. For some reason they chose Rasharkin though.In which case you'd have to ban all Republican/National flute bands and/or organisations who march through Belfast as well...
Name me one parade/commemoration event where republicans march on loyalist areas proclaiming victory over the unionist community?i think it's also important to stress that the only flashpoint of violence and trouble was near the Ardoyne, more than 500 other parades all over Northern Ireland and in the Republic passed without any incident or tension.
So they had 500 other parades to choose from, but this particular one was the most important one?
I note everyone is too busy being up and arms about idiots shouting abuse and dancing on landrovers to mention the blast bombs and pipe bombs thrown by republican youths at the police.
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Have we proof of this?0 -
SoulandForm wrote: »True but gives him more freedom to operate. I thought he was actually coming on a lot before the whole "fleg" nonsense.
I have a suspicion that Robinson was behind the whole "fleg" malarky at the beginning. He was using it as a way to get back at Naomi Long and the Alliance Party for daring to take his East Belfast constituency from him. I suspect (and it's just a theory) that things quickly got out of control in a way that he didn't see coming and then he washed his hands of the whole thing. The irony of course is that the whole flag dispute probably ensured that most moderate and middle class Protestants in East Belfast will vote for Long and the Alliance Party in even bigger numbers in the 2015 UK election because they were appalled at the flag protests and saw the bigger picture in terms of jobs and the economy, which despite some appearances, I maintain the majority of people in NI care about more than flags, emblems and marches.0 -
SoulandForm wrote: »Far from everybody on the Shankhill road is scumbag. There are a lot of decent people there. Republicans have to take some responsibility for their lack of ability to communicate the realities of the situation to these people.
Where did I say that?
The realities of what situation? That everyone on the Shankill isnt a scumbag, i think the vast majority of people would understand that.0 -
The orange order had one of its main parades in Rashsrkin, a predominantly nationalist village in county Antrim.
Quite close to the predominantly loyalist areas of Cullybackey, Ballymoney and Ballymena. For some reason they chose Rasharkin though.
None of which led to trouble.
So I don't see your problem.Name me one parade/commemoration event where republicans march on loyalist areas proclaiming victory over the unionist community?
Does that matter ?
For the Unionist population these parades are equally irritating and offensive as I'd imagine OO parades are for the nationalist population.So they had 500 other parades to choose from, but this particular one was the most important one?
It was the only one where police blocked off the road (rightly, I might add as it was forbidden to pass past the Ardoyne shops).0 -
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None of which led to trouble.
So I don't see your problem.
I don't have a problem. I simply answered your question:Who was walking through nationalist areas ?
Does that matter ?
For the Unionist population these parades are equally irritating and offensive as I'd imagine OO parades are for the nationalist population.
Of course it matters.
Do you think the nationalist community would be up in arms over marches of they were confined to loyalist communities?
Your ignoring the comparisons.
I've zero problems with orange/loyalist band parades, they can do it 366 days a year as far as I'm concerned, so long as they manage to do it without annoying another community that doesn't share their particular views.
Why would I tbh?It was the only one where police blocked off the road (rightly, I might add as it was forbidden to pass past the Ardoyne shops).
Like I said. They had 500 other parades to choose from, yet the banning from this one upset them so much they're now rioting since Friday night?
The orange order by its very nature is sectarian/bigoted.
Personally that doesn't bother me in itself. What bothers me is when they attempt to ram their sectarianism and bigoted views down the throats of people who do not want them their areas.
The KKK don't get to parade in Nairobi or Harlem.0 -
I don't have a problem. I simply answered your question:
Of course it matters.
Do you think the nationalist community would be up in arms over marches of they were confined to loyalist communities?
Your ignoring the comparisons.
You asked me to give examples of nationalist parades that use triumphalism over loyalists, I said it doesn't matter as that's not my point.
Nationalist/Republican parades are not about triumphalism, but that doesn't change the fact they are offensive to certain people.
That was why I compared them, because if people are going to use the argument of 'they're offensive so they must be banned' then it becomes a two-way street.
[quoteLike I said. They had 500 other parades to choose from, yet the banning from this one upset them so much they're now rioting since Friday night?[/quote]
Because they strongly disagreed with the ban to march past the Ardoyne, it's no secret that the Parades Commission is disliked on both sides of the divide and the OO feel that the PC is eroding their rights every year.The orange order by its very nature is sectarian/bigoted.
Personally that doesn't bother me in itself. What bothers me is when they attempt to ram their sectarianism and bigoted views down the throats of people who do not want them their areas.
The KKK don't get to parade in Nairobi or Harlem.
The KKK actually do parade (or at least did, when they had the members) in black areas.
I see your point though about causing problems by provoking people who strongly dislike them, but as has been proven is that at the vast majority of marches there are no problems.0 -
... the whole flag dispute probably ensured that most moderate and middle class Protestants in East Belfast will vote for Long and the Alliance Party in even bigger numbers in the 2015 UK election
Hopefully. It'll be very interesting to see if this does transpire. Afaia the flag was to come down altogether and it was actually Alliance who sought and secured a compromise solution of flying it on the same days as Britain.0 -
Why are you trying to pigeon hole me here? Is it too challenging for you to actually answer any questions. Once more, I am explaining to you why loyalists are attached to the Somme/UVF imagery. They are ignoring the sacrifice of other Irish soldiers but I am not. It is irrelevant to what I am trying to explain to you. Happy to ignore it? No, what would you like to discuss? Tragically foolish? Not for me to say, they had their reasons and as they are now dead I wouldn't feel comfortable in dismissing them. entirely.
Once more, any comment on the existence of otherwise of these lenny murphy and co banners? Genuinely, I would want to know why they can't be addressed under current hate crime or incitement laws.
Do you condemn the pipe bombs and blast bombs and do you support the PSNI's policing approach? Do you recognise the injustice of youths throwing bombs at the police while they attempt to uphold a controversial ruling which favoured the ardoyne residents more than the OO.
The Orange Order won't flee, again, I would like that they disappeared tomorrow, but they won't. You only expose your naivety in believing that they will.
A more mature and conciliatory approach will be required if you ever want to achieve a UI. If not, perceived persecution just serves a recruiting ground for the yobs and knackers you saw dancing on top of police vans this week.
I respect you trying to put our point across but I couldn't help notice you point about not remembering the sacrifice of the Irish volunteers, u can assure you we do. Every year at the Somme wreaths are laid not only in memory of the 36th ulster divsion but also in memory of the 10th and 16th Irish divsion by members of the PUL community who go over as part of Somme society's. on a side note I was part of the 12th parade, along and brutality hot day I can tell you. The route we take used to be contentious but now we follow a route as laid down by the Parades commission and the republican community who got thier way, we have followed this new route for years now and yet republican still saw fit to belt us with eggs and bottles done of which hit a 6 old girl who accompanied her father on the morning parade. We carried on with our 2 mile diversion so that republicans would not be offended along the 200m stretch of road that apparently is 'theirs' on the way back we where greeted by baying republican crowds as we passed the very edge of thier area, which we had no choice to do on account of thier being a river in the way. Ironically some of those shouting at us are involved in a cross community project that my band is involved in, some of them would have even been in our band hall. My 12th ended with a couple of beers in the band hall and then away home to bed since I was spent. A 14 mile march in that heat was a trail of stamina, many a time I wished for a water cannon to dose me with cold water instead I just has bottles of water which I did not so much drink as throw around myself0 -
I have a suspicion that Robinson was behind the whole "fleg" malarky at the beginning. He was using it as a way to get back at Naomi Long and the Alliance Party for daring to take his East Belfast constituency from him. I suspect (and it's just a theory) that things quickly got out of control in a way that he didn't see coming and then he washed his hands of the whole thing. The irony of course is that the whole flag dispute probably ensured that most moderate and middle class Protestants in East Belfast will vote for Long and the Alliance Party in even bigger numbers in the 2015 UK election because they were appalled at the flag protests and saw the bigger picture in terms of jobs and the economy, which despite some appearances, I maintain the majority of people in NI care about more than flags, emblems and marches.
Certainly the DUP was- remember they originally denied creating the leaflet that sparked all the fuss until they caught red-handed (no pun intended!). Naomi Long actually a lot of working class support in Belfast, but actual working class as opposed to the drinking class support from which the likes of PUP draw their strength from. I disagree with her politics but she is a good person who puts in a lot of work and genuine care for people. Personally I think she will keep the seat- if she doesnt I will totally despair of the place.0 -
I don't have a problem. I simply answered your question:
Of course it matters.
Do you think the nationalist community would be up in arms over marches of they were confined to loyalist communities?
Your ignoring the comparisons.
I've zero problems with orange/loyalist band parades, they can do it 366 days a year as far as I'm concerned, so long as they manage to do it without annoying another community that doesn't share their particular views.
Why would I tbh?
Like I said. They had 500 other parades to choose from, yet the banning from this one upset them so much they're now rioting since Friday night?
The orange order by its very nature is sectarian/bigoted.
Personally that doesn't bother me in itself. What bothers me is when they attempt to ram their sectarianism and bigoted views down the throats of people who do not want them their areas.
The KKK don't get to parade in Nairobi or Harlem.
Our very existence annoys republicans. In order for the republican vision for a united ireland to be achived the loyal orders and bands need to broken as they are a thread that weaves through the PUL community and binds us together.0 -
SoulandForm wrote: »Certainly the DUP was- remember they originally denied creating the leaflet that sparked all the fuss until they caught red-handed (no pun intended!). Naomi Long actually a lot of working class support in Belfast, but actual working class as opposed to the drinking class support from which the likes of PUP draw their strength from. I disagree with her politics but she is a good person who puts in a lot of work and genuine care for people. Personally I think she will keep the seat- if she doesnt I will totally despair of the place.
Noami long is finished in east belfast, the working class support you delude yourself that she has, has gone.0 -
Why are you trying to pigeon hole me here? Is it too challenging for you to actually answer any questions. Once more, I am explaining to you why loyalists are attached to the Somme/UVF imagery. They are ignoring the sacrifice of other Irish soldiers but I am not. It is irrelevant to what I am trying to explain to you. Happy to ignore it? No, what would you like to discuss? Tragically foolish? Not for me to say, they had their reasons and as they are now dead I wouldn't feel comfortable in dismissing them. entirely.
Once more, any comment on the existence of otherwise of these lenny murphy and co banners? Genuinely, I would want to know why they can't be addressed under current hate crime or incitement laws.
Do you condemn the pipe bombs and blast bombs and do you support the PSNI's policing approach? Do you recognise the injustice of youths throwing bombs at the police while they attempt to uphold a controversial ruling which favoured the ardoyne residents more than the OO.
The Orange Order won't flee, again, I would like that they disappeared tomorrow, but they won't. You only expose your naivety in believing that they will.
A more mature and conciliatory approach will be required if you ever want to achieve a UI. If not, perceived persecution just serves a recruiting ground for the yobs and knackers you saw dancing on top of police vans this week.
Here for starters- http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/20-years-on-death-of-a-uvf-killer-still-looms-large-in-loyalist-memory-28551805.html
Loyalists have been calling on facebook for a new armed campaign and a sectarian cleansing of the occupied territory since the fleg mess started- of course the UK state is not going to do anything about that unlike on the UK mainland where they have jailed people for burning their vile poppy and posting pictures of it on social media. The British know that they need Loyalists, and that they need to keep them ignorant which is why they have been continually running down the level of education offered in state schools to the ground.
Loyalists respect force and strength, they see compromise as weakness. That is something that the vast majority of other Irish people, particularly those in the south have not copped on to.0 -
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Noami long is finished in east belfast, the working class support you delude yourself that she has, has gone.
You have spoken here sympathetically of David Irvine and if you have done so in real life I would strongly suspect that not a lot of people who say anything nice about her around you. We shall though wont we?0
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