Loyalism in a United ireland

Neo Unionist

One of the main reasons why Ireland was partitioned into North and South was because Irish and Ulster Unionists took it upon themselvesto fight against Home Rule. On the opposite side of things you had Irish Nationalists who were going to fight for its implementation. Yet the country was divided to cater for the Unionist minority group, a group who didn’t even have exclusive representation in their own newly created state.

So why is it that Loyalists are considered a potential threat in a United Ireland when the police are capable of dealing with the current republican threat in a divided Ireland considering that Republicans outnumber Unionists on the island?

Was it, and is it the case that Loyalism and the threat it brings is overhyped in order to justify partition?

Iwasfrozen

Have you ever thought you might get on better with your neighbours if you stopped trying to force your political views on them? No? Just asking.

Mr Cumulonimbus

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Have you ever thought you might get on better with your neighbours if you stopped trying to force your political views on them? No? Just asking.

Were you solely thinking of Irish Nationalists/Republicans when you were typing this? No? Just asking.

Iwasfrozen

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Were you solely thinking of Irish Nationalists/Republicans when you were typing this? No? Just asking.

I was thinking of hypocritical republicans who fought for the right to self determination from Britain then fought to deny that right to the unionist community.

Why? Because they had the jingoistic compulsion to extend their dominion over all of Ireland regardless of how the locals felt about this.

Mr Cumulonimbus

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I was thinking of hypocritical republicans who fought for the right to self determination from Britain then fought to deny that right to the unionist community.

I was unaware the partition process unfolded like this.

how the locals felt about this.

November 1918 election results?

enricoh

the orange order covered themselves in glory again last night, no-one does bitterness better! good luck to the tourism board up there, methinks they,re pi.ssing against the wind!

Neo Unionist

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Have you ever thought you might get on better with your neighbours if you stopped trying to force your political views on them? No? Just asking.

That is assuming that all people from Northern Ireland are Unionist which they clearly are not.

Riddle101

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I was thinking of hypocritical republicans who fought for the right to self determination from Britain then fought to deny that right to the unionist community.

If it came to a choice between Irish independence, and catering to the unionist community(which were a minority) which choice would you make if you were a republican trying to get independence? Keeping in mind, Unionist were obstructive to their aims.

Why? Because they had the jingoistic compulsion to extend their dominion over all of Ireland regardless of how the locals felt about this.

England extended their dominion all over the world regardless of how people felt about it from those countries. America got their independence, India fought for independence too. So you could say, Unionists didn't exactly have a problem with British dominion over the locals either. They were happy to see Ireland stay British, regardless of locals who wanted independence.

everdead.ie

I don't see why Loyalism would be an issue in a United Ireland.
Loyalists would still be gauranteed all their rights and marches the only issue I could forsee is that a lot of the bonfires would be made to downsize so they don't damage the surrounding buildings.

Can't think of any other issues except for protests etc.

Richard Hillman

enricoh wrote: »

the orange order covered themselves in glory again last night, no-one does bitterness better! good luck to the tourism board up there, methinks they,re pi.ssing against the wind!

Bitterness? They are celebrating battles that they won.

Riddle101

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Bitterness? They are celebrating battles that they won.

This doesn't look like celebrating to me
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/belfast-riots-400-extra-police-drafted-in-following-violence-as-mp-nigel-dodds-is-hit-by-brick-8706685.html

But sure even last year, when they stopped out outside St Patrick's church and played sectarian songs. Or the bonfires with tri color flags being burned. Yeah that doesn't show bitterness at all.

Swan Curry

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Bitterness? They are celebrating battles that they won.

What's this "they" business?The only "battles" today's Orangemen have experience of is when they attack the police.

Banjo String

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Bitterness? They are celebrating battles that they won.

that's commonly referred to as triumphalism.

Parading in areas they're obviously not wanted, nor welcomed in, if that's not bitterness what is?

The twelfth should be organised in future as something akin to Glastonbury. A huge field in the middle of nowhere with thousands of other like minded people get together to celebrate their 'culture'. No one should be offended, no one would feel intimidated.

WakeUp

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Bitterness? They are celebrating battles that they won.

In fairness, the Loyalists involved in the sectarian triumphalism weve witnessed over the past couple of days were celebrating their depressing & bigoted inability to move on from the 17th century and nothing more.

Richard Hillman

I am just pointing out the misuse of the word bitter. They protestants won their battle and it is the other side that are bitter about losing, otherwise there would be no objections to the march.

OCorcrainn

So you think it is perfectly ok for Orange parades to march down nationalist and catholic areas with banners of loyalists like Lenny Murphy, Michael Stone, Billy Wright or banners of the Red Hand Commandos, UFF, UVF, UDA and the LVF? Not to mention loyalists after having been given permission to march on their contested traditional routes calling nationalists and Catholics "second class citizens"?

You ignorance on these facts as to why they are so opposed is astounding.

Iwasfrozen

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

November 1918 election results?

What about them?

Iwasfrozen

Neo Unionist wrote: »

That is assuming that all people from Northern Ireland are Unionist which they clearly are not.

No it isn't. When I said neighbours I was talking, albeit not exclusively, about unionists.

Buzz84

SamHall wrote: »

that's commonly referred to as triumphalism.

Parading in areas they're obviously not wanted, nor welcomed in, if that's not bitterness what is?

The twelfth should be organised in future as something akin to Glastonbury. A huge field in the middle of nowhere with thousands of other like minded people get together to celebrate their 'culture'. No one should be offended, no one would feel intimidated.

But if they thought they couldnt offend anyone what would be the point for them?

Iwasfrozen

Riddle101 wrote: »

If it came to a choice between Irish independence, and catering to the unionist community(which were a minority) which choice would you make if you were a republican trying to get independence? Keeping in mind, Unionist were obstructive to their aims.

Exactly. Which highlights the hypocrisy inherit in Irish nationalism.

England extended their dominion all over the world regardless of how people felt about it from those countries. America got their independence, India fought for independence too. So you could say, Unionists didn't exactly have a problem with British dominion over the locals either. They were happy to see Ireland stay British, regardless of locals who wanted independence.

Another example to highlight the hypocrisy of a movement fighting against foreign domination trying to dominate another people.

Hypocrisy and doublethink are inherit in Irish nationalism.

Riddle101

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I am just pointing out the misuse of the word bitter. They protestants won their battle and it is the other side that are bitter about losing, otherwise there would be no objections to the march.

The objection comes from the antagonistic nature of the marches. When you've got an openly sectarian organisation matching through a nationalist area singing sectarian songs etc. Well one does not need to guess why there is so much objection.

Exactly. Which highlights the hypocrisy inherit in Irish nationalism.

You're over exaggerating at best. You think people who fight for independence are going to have full support of what they are doing? You don't think that America or India didn't have people who opposed independence either. The people who oppose can't be helped, and there will always be people opposed to it, that is a fact. So yeah, unionist weren't exactly apart of the overall plan for Irish Independence. But you make it seem like they were oppressed, which was the other way around. Unionist were apart of the problem as well, and there was no other way to deal with it.

Another example to highlight the hypocrisy of a movement fighting against foreign domination trying to dominate another people.

I don't see an example. I just see you trying to undermine my points, with the assessment that fighting for independence is the same thing as a country/empire trying to exert it's control over the world forcibly. When the French Resistance was active during the second world war, do you think they should have taken into account the Vichy Government? Or The Partisans in Yugoslavia who were fighting Nazi control in that country. Should they have taken into account the people who co-operated with the Nazis? Like Ante Pavelic and the Ustaše regime.

The real hypocrites are the Unionists/Loyalists.

Hannibal

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What about them?

"regardless of how the locals felt about this" is indicated by the result of the 1918 Irish general election and it's pretty clear exactly how the locals felt:

Sinn Féin led by Eamon de Valera won 73 seats and 46.9% of the vote.

Irish Unionist Alliance led by Edward Carson won 22 seats and 25.3% of the vote

Irish Parliamentary Party led by John Dillon won 6 seats and 21.7% of the vote.

clairefontaine

Dotsey wrote: »

"regardless of how the locals felt about this" is indicated by the result of the 1918 Irish general election and it's pretty clear exactly how the locals felt:

Sinn Féin led by Eamon de Valera won 73 seats and 46.9% of the vote.

Irish Unionist Alliance led by Edward Carson won 22 seats and 25.3% of the vote

Irish Parliamentary Party led by John Dillon won 6 seats and 21.7% of the vote.

Was this before women were allowed to vote in Ireland? Did they vote in that election? Just curious.

Mr Cumulonimbus

clairefontaine wrote: »

Was this before women were allowed to vote in Ireland? Did they vote in that election? Just curious.

Men over 21 and women over 30, but not all women over 30. There were still some restrictions based around property ownership I think.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Hypocrisy and doublethink are inherit in Irish nationalism.

?

Strange that. Unionism was in a minority in the one time that there was an all island election based on a model of decent enough universal suffrage. They refused to accept the wishes of the majority on the island who voted for varying forms of independence, but once partition was up and running they lost no time in telling nationalists in the new NI state that they had to abide by the democratic wishes of "the majority". Hypocrisy and doublethink as well?

Happyman42

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I am just pointing out the misuse of the word bitter. They protestants won their battle and it is the other side that are bitter about losing, otherwise there would be no objections to the march.

They may have won the battle but they have lost the war, that is what they show in a display of ranting stubborness to face reality every July.

Jelle1880

Riddle101 wrote: »

The objection comes from the antagonistic nature of the marches. When you've got an openly sectarian organisation matching through a nationalist area singing sectarian songs etc. Well one does not need to guess why there is so much objection.

Who was walking through nationalist areas ?

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Who was walking through nationalist areas ?

The Orange Order.

Personally Im in favour of just a straight out ban on them.

Jelle1880

SoulandForm wrote: »

The Orange Order.

Personally Im in favour of just a straight out ban on them.

Shocking

They weren't walking through any nationalist area, unless you constitute passing the Ardoyne shops as 'walking through'.

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Shocking

They weren't walking through any nationalist area, unless you constitute passing the Ardoyne shops as 'walking through'.

I dont like this idea of Catholic streets and Protestant streets yet given the Orange Order's history its hardly surprising that Catholics or generally Republican/nationalist/Socialist people dont want them around. Ardoyne shops are part of the neighbourhood and more than that the whole area got sealed off to accommodate these bigots.

Its either ban them completely eventually OR they say sorry for all the damage that they have done where ever in the globe they have been.

Jelle1880

In which case you'd have to ban all Republican/National flute bands and/or organisations who march through Belfast as well...

I agree that this whole idea of Republican/Nationalist and Loyalist/Unionist neighbourhoods is outdated, but if you see the yearly outbursts of violence from both sides then it's crystal clear that there are still elements who refuse to, or are simply unable to co-exist with one another.

i think it's also important to stress that the only flashpoint of violence and trouble was near the Ardoyne, more than 500 other parades all over Northern Ireland and in the Republic passed without any incident or tension.

Buzz84

Jelle1880 wrote: »

In which case you'd have to ban all Republican/National flute bands and/or organisations who march through Belfast as well...

I agree that this whole idea of Republican/Nationalist and Loyalist/Unionist neighbourhoods is outdated, but if you see the yearly outbursts of violence from both sides then it's crystal clear that there are still elements who refuse to, or are simply unable to co-exist with one another.

i think it's also important to stress that the only flashpoint of violence and trouble was near the Ardoyne, more than 500 other parades all over Northern Ireland and in the Republic passed without any incident or tension.

What do you mean out dated? People don't have much choice. Would you feel comfortable living on the Shankill Road or vice versa

SoulandForm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

In which case you'd have to ban all Republican/National flute bands and/or organisations who march through Belfast as well...

I agree that this whole idea of Republican/Nationalist and Loyalist/Unionist neighbourhoods is outdated, but if you see the yearly outbursts of violence from both sides then it's crystal clear that there are still elements who refuse to, or are simply unable to co-exist with one another.

i think it's also important to stress that the only flashpoint of violence and trouble was near the Ardoyne, more than 500 other parades all over Northern Ireland and in the Republic passed without any incident or tension.

They poison the whole atmosphere and wind up tensions across society in the north for much of the summer. They are not harmless at all. Republican flute bands maybe should banned for being crap imitations of Loyalist ones on grounds purely of taste but Easter commemorations barely register with most Unionists and Loyalists. They are very different things.

SoulandForm

Buzz84 wrote: »

What do you mean out dated? People don't have much choice. Would you feel comfortable living on the Shankill Road or vice versa

Having Pradestant streets and Kaffalick streets is a perfect example of the barbarism partition and continued occupation has foisted on north east Ulster- it simply is not civilized.

I am pie

Jelle1880 wrote: »

In which case you'd have to ban all Republican/National flute bands and/or organisations who march through Belfast as well...

I agree that this whole idea of Republican/Nationalist and Loyalist/Unionist neighbourhoods is outdated, but if you see the yearly outbursts of violence from both sides then it's crystal clear that there are still elements who refuse to, or are simply unable to co-exist with one another.

i think it's also important to stress that the only flashpoint of violence and trouble was near the Ardoyne, more than 500 other parades all over Northern Ireland and in the Republic passed without any incident or tension.

On the parade day, yes, there were only incidents outside the Ardoyne shops. Afterwards, No. Plenty of rioting and arguably incited by the Orange Order / DUP comments about 'cultural wars'

However, the lack of perspective here is astounding, and also the lack of geographical knowledge. The shops in Ardoyne represent 100m , 500m is a stretch. No one is sealed in, that is ridiculous. There are other entry and exit points to Ardoyne. Would love to see some photos of the alleged Lenny Murphy and LVF banners. The UVF banners are in commemoration of the historic UVF batallions deployed at the somme. Sadly the name was been hijacked by gun toting murderous thugs in the 60s and 70s. If the PSNI are allowing incitement to hatred in the form of banners celebrating Stone, Murphy or Wright then something should be done. I haven't seen photos

A few hundreds wretches riot and suddenly we are proposing banning the Orange Order, doesn't seem very democratic or inclusive to me. A great way to entice the unionists into a United Ireland.

I note everyone is too busy being up and arms about idiots shouting abuse and dancing on landrovers to mention the blast bombs and pipe bombs thrown by republican youths at the police.

Yet again, the real losers here are the police. They upheld the return parade ban supported by SF and the SDLP, allowed the residents to hold a silent protest and blast the loyalists with water cannons. There reward? Pipe bombs and blast bombs from the youth of Short Strand and the Ardoyne. Terrific.

Of course, no one here has said to much about it as they are too busy being up in arms about a bunch of under educated flute players.

SoulandForm

I am pie wrote: »

The UVF banners are in commemoration of the historic UVF batallions deployed at the somme. Sadly the name was been hijacked by gun toting murderous thugs in the 60s and 70s. If the PSNI are allowing incitement to hatred in the form of banners celebrating Stone, Murphy or Wright then something should be done. I haven't seen photos

You are showing your ignorance here- if there is any real difference between the UVF of today and Carson's UVF it is that the one of today is more progressive and less bigoted.

You might want to observe this?

bilston

In any United Ireland (won't happen anytime soon but never mind) the Orange Order and Loyalists would be a minority within a minority.

The best way to deal with the Orange Order and the Loyalist bands is for the political Unionism to confront them. Unfortunately the Orders are embedded in the leadership of both Unionist parties and that makes it very difficult for moderate Unionists to speak out against them.

However the bare facts speak for themselves. The Orange Order has a membership of about 75,000, yet out of a population of 1.8 million in NI, close to 1 million would regard themselves as Unionist. That means there are a hell of a lot more Unionists who are not Orange Order members and want to have nothing to do with the Orange Order than there are members of said Order. If political Unionism would start to realise this then we might get somewhere.

It's about time Robinson, Dodds and Donaldson etc stood up to the Orange Order...except the problem is they are all members so they're never going to do that...

bilston

I am pie wrote: »

Yet again, the real losers here are the police.

Yep, damned if they do and damned if they don't

SoulandForm

bilston wrote: »

It's about time Robinson, Dodds and Donaldson etc stood up to the Orange Order...except the problem is they are all members so they're never going to do that...

Robinson isnt.

I have a certain admiration for him as man, it is just a pity about his absolutely vile politics.

I am pie

SoulandForm wrote: »

You are showing your ignorance here- if there is any real difference between the UVF of today and Carson's UVF it is that the one of today is more progressive and less bigoted.

You might want to observe this?

Nice selective quoting. Can't watch youtube in work. That really isn't the issue though is it, I could care less for the UVF and their roots. I am happy to condemn them from beginning to end. I am trying to illustrate that a lot of young men died in the Somme under that banner and that is what is being commemorated. It is an important part of the Ulster protestant identity and over the top allegiance to the crown. They feel like the paid the dues in blood in WW1 and deserve support from the rest of the Union. I am not saying I agree, I only explaining why the banners include UVF decoration.

However, I see the one way traffic is continuing here. Some salient points to reiterate.

1. Banning large organisations is a child like approach to build a shared future for any country. It won't work. Especially when that organisations is joined at the hip to the largest political party in the north, the DUP (who I also dislike intensely).

2. Are there really banners of Lenny Murphy, Billy Wright and other terrorists? If so I am concerned that the PSNI should be dealing with these. Again, I haven't seen them but if they do exist then these should be banned. Of course there should be standards about acceptable banners.

3. What agenda allows you to condemn some idiots shouting abuse but allows you to remain silent on the pipe bomb-blast bomb issue.

As i have said on another thread, if I could press a button and make them disappear I certainly would, I dislike them intensely. That can't happen and if anyone is actually serious about a United Ireland they would need to come up with some slightly more intelligent theories about how to deal with them in a future UI and how to understand why they are how they are. That's the problem in the north and with the perception of the north in RoI....both sides retreat to their comfort zones, hurl abuse and or pipe bombs and no serious thinking as to how to actually address the problem ever happens.

Jelle1880

Buzz84 wrote: »

What do you mean out dated? People don't have much choice. Would you feel comfortable living on the Shankill Road or vice versa

Given my choice of football teams, yes

What I mean with that is that it shows an outdated form of tribalism that people still cling on to 'Protestant' and 'Catholic' areas.

I don't see how this is a matter of 'not having a choice', plenty of areas in and around Belfast where catholics and protestants live together.

bilston

SoulandForm wrote: »

Robinson isnt.

I have a certain admiration for him as man, it is just a pity about his absolutely vile politics.

Well the problem for him then is that he alone can't take them on (if he even wanted to) as he would be torn to shreds by his own party.

SoulandForm

They were out numbered in WWI by Irish Nationalist volunteers- but you are happy to ignore the price they paid in blood? That said the Irish volunteers were tragically foolish in what they did.

Look-Orange Order types and hardcore Loyalists once people from a Catholic background become a majority in the north will leave the country (that is not to say a United Ireland will be on the cards than at all necessarily). That is just their style. They fled the Free State even though it went over the top to reach out to them after its establishment. They leave areas in the occupied counties today when they discover they have to many Tea Eggs around them. It is just their style.

They are not now a long term problem.

I am pie wrote: »

Nice selective quoting. Can't watch youtube in work. That really isn't the issue though is it, I could care less for the UVF and their roots. I am happy to condemn them from beginning to end. I am trying to illustrate that a lot of young men died in the Somme under that banner and that is what is being commemorated. It is an important part of the Ulster protestant identity and over the top allegiance to the crown. They feel like the paid the dues in blood in WW1 and deserve support from the rest of the Union. I am not saying I agree, I only explaining why the banners include UVF decoration.

However, I see the one way traffic is continuing here. Some salient points to reiterate.

1. Banning large organisations is a child like approach to build a shared future for any country. It won't work. Especially when that organisations is joined at the hip to the largest political party in the north, the DUP (who I also dislike intensely).

2. Are there really banners of Lenny Murphy, Billy Wright and other terrorists? If so I am concerned that the PSNI should be dealing with these. Again, I haven't seen them but if they do exist then these should be banned. Of course there should be standards about acceptable banners.

3. What agenda allows you to condemn some idiots shouting abuse but allows you to remain silent on the pipe bomb-blast bomb issue.

As i have said on another thread, if I could press a button and make them disappear I certainly would, I dislike them intensely. That can't happen and if anyone is actually serious about a United Ireland they would need to come up with some slightly more intelligent theories about how to deal with them in a future UI and how to understand why they are how they are. That's the problem in the north and with the perception of the north in RoI....both sides retreat to their comfort zones, hurl abuse and or pipe bombs and no serious thinking as to how to actually address the problem ever happens.

SoulandForm

bilston wrote: »

Well the problem for him then is that he alone can't take them on (if he even wanted to) as he would be torn to shreds by his own party.

True but gives him more freedom to operate. I thought he was actually coming on a lot before the whole "fleg" nonsense.

Cork24

how can England keep puring money into N.I again the Original order has cost the State Millions on police force.

i bet the guys are on some amount of Over-Time. image any other Country getting in English, Scots and wales members of their police force over to help the PSNI

I also find it sicking the way the ira are telling Catholics not to join the PSNI or risk being killed.

its no longer the RUC.

SoulandForm

Buzz84 wrote: »

What do you mean out dated? People don't have much choice. Would you feel comfortable living on the Shankill Road or vice versa

Far from everybody on the Shankhill road is scumbag. There are a lot of decent people there. Republicans have to take some responsibility for their lack of ability to communicate the realities of the situation to these people.

bilston

Cork24 wrote: »

how can England keep puring money into N.I again the Original order has cost the State Millions on police force.

i bet the guys are on some amount of Over-Time. image any other Country getting in English, Scots and wales members of their police force over to help the PSNI

I also find it sicking the way the ira are telling Catholics not to join the PSNI or risk being killed.

its no longer the RUC.

Far be it from me to defend the IRA, but it's the Dissidents telling and threatening Catholics not to join the PSNI. They're doing it for their own aims. There is absolutely no reason in the world for Catholics or anyone to fear the PSNI, the Dissidents just want to de-normalise Northern Ireland as much as possible and this is one way of doing it.

As for the policing, I don't think it's that unusual for UK police forces to help each other out albeit maybe not on this scale. And finally the UK government will continue to spend money in Northern Ireland not least because the people of Northern Ireland pay their taxes to the UK government so I think it's only right that they expect something in return. Sure NI gets more than it gives but that's probably the same for every part of the UK bar London and the South East of England which is in a completely different league economically to the rest of the UK.

I am pie

SoulandForm wrote: »

They were out numbered in WWI by Irish Nationalist volunteers- but you are happy to ignore the price they paid in blood? That said the Irish volunteers were tragically foolish in what they did.

Look-Orange Order types and hardcore Loyalists once people from a Catholic background become a majority in the north will leave the country (that is not to say a United Ireland will be on the cards than at all necessarily). That is just their style. They fled the Free State even though it went over the top to reach out to them after its establishment. They leave areas in the occupied counties today when they discover they have to many Tea Eggs around them. It is just their style.

They are not now a long term problem.

Why are you trying to pigeon hole me here? Is it too challenging for you to actually answer any questions. Once more, I am explaining to you why loyalists are attached to the Somme/UVF imagery. They are ignoring the sacrifice of other Irish soldiers but I am not. It is irrelevant to what I am trying to explain to you. Happy to ignore it? No, what would you like to discuss? Tragically foolish? Not for me to say, they had their reasons and as they are now dead I wouldn't feel comfortable in dismissing them. entirely.

Once more, any comment on the existence of otherwise of these lenny murphy and co banners? Genuinely, I would want to know why they can't be addressed under current hate crime or incitement laws.

Do you condemn the pipe bombs and blast bombs and do you support the PSNI's policing approach? Do you recognise the injustice of youths throwing bombs at the police while they attempt to uphold a controversial ruling which favoured the ardoyne residents more than the OO.

The Orange Order won't flee, again, I would like that they disappeared tomorrow, but they won't. You only expose your naivety in believing that they will.

A more mature and conciliatory approach will be required if you ever want to achieve a UI. If not, perceived persecution just serves a recruiting ground for the yobs and knackers you saw dancing on top of police vans this week.

Banjo String

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Who was walking through nationalist areas ?

The orange order had one of its main parades in Rashsrkin, a predominantly nationalist village in county Antrim.

Quite close to the predominantly loyalist areas of Cullybackey, Ballymoney and Ballymena. For some reason they chose Rasharkin though.

Jelle1880 wrote: »

In which case you'd have to ban all Republican/National flute bands and/or organisations who march through Belfast as well...

Name me one parade/commemoration event where republicans march on loyalist areas proclaiming victory over the unionist community?

Jelle1880 wrote: »

i think it's also important to stress that the only flashpoint of violence and trouble was near the Ardoyne, more than 500 other parades all over Northern Ireland and in the Republic passed without any incident or tension.

So they had 500 other parades to choose from, but this particular one was the most important one?

I am pie wrote: »

I note everyone is too busy being up and arms about idiots shouting abuse and dancing on landrovers to mention the blast bombs and pipe bombs thrown by republican youths at the police.



.

Have we proof of this?

bilston

SoulandForm wrote: »

True but gives him more freedom to operate. I thought he was actually coming on a lot before the whole "fleg" nonsense.

I have a suspicion that Robinson was behind the whole "fleg" malarky at the beginning. He was using it as a way to get back at Naomi Long and the Alliance Party for daring to take his East Belfast constituency from him. I suspect (and it's just a theory) that things quickly got out of control in a way that he didn't see coming and then he washed his hands of the whole thing. The irony of course is that the whole flag dispute probably ensured that most moderate and middle class Protestants in East Belfast will vote for Long and the Alliance Party in even bigger numbers in the 2015 UK election because they were appalled at the flag protests and saw the bigger picture in terms of jobs and the economy, which despite some appearances, I maintain the majority of people in NI care about more than flags, emblems and marches.

Buzz84

SoulandForm wrote: »

Far from everybody on the Shankhill road is scumbag. There are a lot of decent people there. Republicans have to take some responsibility for their lack of ability to communicate the realities of the situation to these people.

Where did I say that?

The realities of what situation? That everyone on the Shankill isnt a scumbag, i think the vast majority of people would understand that.

Jelle1880

SamHall wrote: »

The orange order had one of its main parades in Rashsrkin, a predominantly nationalist village in county Antrim.

Quite close to the predominantly loyalist areas of Cullybackey, Ballymoney and Ballymena. For some reason they chose Rasharkin though.

None of which led to trouble.
So I don't see your problem.

Name me one parade/commemoration event where republicans march on loyalist areas proclaiming victory over the unionist community?

Does that matter ?
For the Unionist population these parades are equally irritating and offensive as I'd imagine OO parades are for the nationalist population.

So they had 500 other parades to choose from, but this particular one was the most important one?

It was the only one where police blocked off the road (rightly, I might add as it was forbidden to pass past the Ardoyne shops).