Your Ireland 23 for Nov. 9th versus Samoa

bilston

Tox56 wrote: »

If a 24 year old D'Arcy had produced the season he did last year he would be comfortably first choice for Ireland. People take for granted how good he is, his performance against Wasps for example was largely brushed over, despite the fact he won the MOTM award, compared to someone like Madigan who also had a good game but is 10 years younger. There's great clamour for Marshall's inclusion, and rightly so, because he is a great prospect with time on his side, but in terms of the actual rugby played I don't think he was as good as D'Arcy last season at all.

D'Arcy was pretty good last year, it was his best season (for Ireland anyway) in a couple of years, before that mind he had been quite poor, still he shouldnt be ruled out, he probably sees the WC as a realistic target so why rule him out because of age. That said I do hope that Marshall makes the 12 shirt his own as quickly as possible as that will mean he is playing very well which can onlu be good for Ireland.

thebaz

Tox56 wrote: »

If a 24 year old D'Arcy had produced the season he did last year he would be comfortably first choice for Ireland. People take for granted how good he is,

agree 100 % , D'Arcy is often only valued when he is missing - he forms a super partnership with BOD, and his importance to Irish rugby and Leinster has been immense , it would be great if he too got another season for Ireland - he works so well with BOD.

danthefan

You only have to look at the Wales 6N game with D'Arcy on and D'Arcy off to see his value.

I am obviously not suggesting his going off was responsible for the massive shift in momentum, that was a whole team thing.

But our defensive shape in the backs was just so much better with him on. I'd be happy to see him put in a good season for Leinster but I wouldn't be against Marshall being given a shot at 12 now considering he's a very good player and his and D'Arcy's respective ages.

schools rugby

Gonna make a huge statement and say i think Dave McSharry from Connaucht will be in contention for the 12 jersey for the world cup. He has looked at home in the HEC which is the closest thing to test rugby there is . Only problem is he is often injured

JagerScout

love darcy and all but its time ireland moved on and started to look at his replacement

Thekidneybean

Shouldn't replace D'Arcy, best 12 in Ireland,replace him when the time comes.

thomond2006

Thekidneybean wrote: »

Shouldn't replace D'Arcy, best 12 in Ireland,replace him when the time comes.

The time is right now.

Mahatma Geansai

D'Arcy and BOD as a pairing offer very little as an attacking force at international level. Very solid defensive partnership, and BOD is always capable of a moment of genius, but you forfeit any linebreaks in midfield by starting them. All the opposition defensive coach has to worry about are the back 3 popping up in midfield, because neither of the lads are likely to beat their man.

molloyjh

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

D'Arcy and BOD as a pairing offer very little as an attacking force at international level. Very solid defensive partnership, and BOD is always capable of a moment of genius, but you forfeit any linebreaks in midfield by starting them. All the opposition defensive coach has to worry about are the back 3 popping up in midfield, because neither of the lads are likely to beat their man.

This. We saw the difference Marshall made in midfield in the 6 Nations. And who better to have on either side of a new 12 than Sexton and Drico!? I've always been a huge fan of Darce, but time waits for no man. We need to start actually playing some attacking rugby and having a Marshall or an Olding breaking the line in midfield is just the thing we want.

Foxtrol

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

D'Arcy and BOD as a pairing offer very little as an attacking force at international level. Very solid defensive partnership, and BOD is always capable of a moment of genius, but you forfeit any linebreaks in midfield by starting them. All the opposition defensive coach has to worry about are the back 3 popping up in midfield, because neither of the lads are likely to beat their man.

Facing off against NZ which is more preferable having one of the battle tested and best 10, 12, 13 defensive combinitations out there or having a 12 brought in who Sexton and BOD will have to second guess but might make an extra linebreak or two a game? I think that under Schmidt the lack of linebreaks in midfield wont be as big of an issue as they were under Kidney so I'm not sure if the positives of bringing in Marshall are worth losing the positives Darcy brings to the side, especially given his good form last season.

bilston

Foxtrol wrote: »

Facing off against NZ which is more preferable having one of the battle tested and best 10, 12, 13 defensive combinitations out there or having a 12 brought in who Sexton and BOD will have to second guess but might make an extra linebreak or two a game? I think that under Schmidt the lack of linebreaks in midfield wont be as big of an issue as they were under Kidney so I'm not sure if the positives of bringing in Marshall are worth losing the positives Darcy brings to the side, especially given his good form last season.

But you could use this argument about Sexton and BOD having to second guess Marshall until the end of time (Marshall and BOD have 3 caps together now anyway). Also Marshall is a superb defender anyway so I don't think we lose anything there at all whether D'Arcy or Marshall start.

Anyway who knows what will happen. Wallace ad McFadden may be the starting 12s at Ulster and Leinster this season for all we know!

Foxtrol

bilston wrote: »

But you could use this argument about Sexton and BOD having to second guess Marshall until the end of time (Marshall and BOD have 3 caps together now anyway). Also Marshall is a superb defender anyway so I don't think we lose anything there at all whether D'Arcy or Marshall start.

Anyway who knows what will happen. Wallace ad McFadden may be the starting 12s at Ulster and Leinster this season for all we know!

I’m talking about specifically the NZ game. Please tell me you’re not trying to equate 3 caps to being the same as the decade or so that Darcy has been playing beside BOD. I’m hoping Schmidt uses the horses for courses selections he was praised for with Leinster and I think 12 would be one of those positions that he could interchange rather than the black and white ‘let’s drop Darcy’ calls.

bilston

Foxtrol wrote: »

Please tell me you’re not trying to equate 3 caps to being the same as the decade or so that Darcy has been playing.

That's an interesting take on what I was saying!

Foxtrol

bilston wrote: »

That's an interesting take on what I was saying!

You said:

bilston wrote: »

(Marshall and BOD have 3 caps together now anyway). Also Marshall is a superb defender anyway so I don't think we lose anything there at all whether D'Arcy or Marshall start.

Presuming the system will be the same, how good a defensive combination works together generally is down to their individual skill as defenders and the experience they have together. So to say there’s no drop off by bringing Marshall in you either believe Marshall is such a better defender than Darcy that it negates the experience himself and BOD has picked up together over the years or that Marshalls experience in 3 caps gives him a similar enough understanding with BOD as Darcy has.

How else can you explain your assertion that we wont lose anything in defense?

bilston

Foxtrol wrote: »

You said:



Presuming the system will be the same, how good a defensive combination works together generally is down to their individual skill as defenders and the experience they have together. So to say there’s no drop off by bringing Marshall in you either believe Marshall is such a better defender than Darcy that it negates the experience himself and BOD has picked up together over the years or that Marshalls experience in 3 caps gives him a similar enough understanding with BOD as Darcy has.

How else can you explain your assertion that we wont lose anything in defense?

I was only making the point that Marshall and O'Driscoll had some experience of playing together where defensively Ireland were actually very good, I was in no way whatsoever trying to compare that with the experience that D'Arcy and BOD have of playing with each other.

Mahatma Geansai

Sure DOC and POC are our most experienced lock pairing. Why not start them sure.

Foxtrol

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Sure DOC and POC are our most experienced lock pairing. Why not start them sure.

Like my point about Darcy, if DOC was playing at or above the level of Ryan and McCarthy last season and you could give me a tangible aspect of the game where he'd add to the team over the other options then I'd be happy to listen to your argument.

You're trying to build a straw man for an argument I'm not making.

Foxtrol

bilston wrote: »

I was only making the point that Marshall and O'Driscoll had some experience of playing together where defensively Ireland were actually very good, I was in no way whatsoever trying to compare that with the experience that D'Arcy and BOD have of playing with each other.

So care to answer the question as to how there'll be no drop off in defense with Marshall there?

The only two options I can see are that you must think that experience together that a Darcy/BOD combo brings means nothing or that Marshall is so much better in defense than Darcy that he negates it. I'd be delighted if you had a different explanation but a sample size of 3 caps, especially given the games, they were in is not comparable to the defensive challenge of facing NZ.

danthefan

Was going to post up a team but there are just so many variables. Players dropping in or out of form, injuries, who impresses the new coaches in training, etc. Like I probably wouldn't have Kearney starting based on his 12/13 form, but if he starts off next season in his 11/12 form then he's a shoe in and probably one of our best players. Who knows?

Plumtree coming in is great actually because he knows nothing about Irish rugby from an insider point of view. He's completely fresh eyes and hopefully he'll be able to provide a different point of view to Schmidt and Kiss. Schmidt will be working with a lot of players who he hasn't worked with before but he does know everyone to some degree.

Hagz

I think if there's going to be a surprise anywhere it will be at inside centre. People are juggling between Marshall and D'Arcy, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone else sneaks in. Stuart Olding looked more impressive at 12 for me than Marshall ever has at Ulster. McSharry has yet to have a consistent run and whenever he does play he looks impressive; he could have a real breakthrough this season now that he's had the operation out of the way. And then there's very little being said of Chris Farrell, understandably so, but he is a serious unit at 6'4 it will be interesting to see how he goes in the preseason games, especially as he's coming back from a season long injury.

bilston

Foxtrol wrote: »

So care to answer the question as to how there'll be no drop off in defense with Marshall there?

The only two options I can see are that you must think that experience together that a Darcy/BOD combo brings means nothing or that Marshall is so much better in defense than Darcy that he negates it. I'd be delighted if you had a different explanation but a sample size of 3 caps, especially given the games, they were in is not comparable to the defensive challenge of facing NZ.

Marshall is a very good defender, that's why I don't think there would be much of a drop off. That's based on watching him play for Ulster over the last two years rather than just three games for Ireland. He makes good hard front foot tackles and his breakdown work is very strong. You're focusing on combinations and I'm focusing on the individual more. By the way I'm not dismissing D'Arcy who may well be the best option against NZ.

schools rugby

Hagz wrote: »

I think if there's going to be a surprise anywhere it will be at inside centre. People are juggling between Marshall and D'Arcy, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone else sneaks in. Stuart Olding looked more impressive at 12 for me than Marshall ever has at Ulster. McSharry has yet to have a consistent run and whenever he does play he looks impressive; he could have a real breakthrough this season now that he's had the operation out of the way. And then there's very little being said of Chris Farrell, understandably so, but he is a serious unit at 6'4 it will be interesting to see how he goes in the preseason games, especially as he's coming back from a season long injury.

I really think this year is McSharry's year to storm on the Irish scene .
The problem with Olding and Marshall i find is that do Ulster know who their best 12 is ? I cant find much between either of them tbh

bilston

schools rugby wrote: »

I really think this year is McSharry's year to storm on the Irish scene .
The problem with Olding and Marshall i find is that do Ulster know who their best 12 is ? I cant find much between either of them tbh

When is McSharry back? Will he be back for November? If not that might be a problem for him as it means someone gets a head start on him.

its_phil

bilston wrote: »

When is McSharry back? Will he be back for November? If not that might be a problem for him as it means someone gets a head start on him.

He should only miss the first couple weeks.

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/23106.php#.UfrvCJJJOsY

siltirocker

bilston wrote: »

When is McSharry back? Will he be back for November? If not that might be a problem for him as it means someone gets a head start on him.

It was a straight toss up between him and Marshall for the Six Nations, until he pulled up. Marshall cements.

Now him being out of Six Nations & Summer tour gave Marshall & Olding chances to take places at 12.

I think if he is unavailable for the November games, I can see Marshall & Olding cement and that will massivly hurt his Irish prospects.

Utah_Saint

schools rugby wrote: »

I really think this year is McSharry's year to storm on the Irish scene .
The problem with Olding and Marshall i find is that do Ulster know who their best 12 is ? I cant find much between either of them tbh

true as i think olding took everyone by surprise. I agree with an earlier comment about Olding impressing me more than Marshall during his time in the ulster setup. Olding looks very dynamic which brings me back to.....Olding to 13..;)