In reality, how useful are German, French etc

Legs.Eleven

bluewolf wrote: »

I think the grammar is all lovely and logical in german It's all about the vocab now
Spanish seems simple enough and it's true having one romance language helps with the others; I was ok reading the instructions on train machines and stuff in italy

Spanish is very logical too but what got me is the vocab; they don't use half the amount we'd use in English. They don't tend to use synonyms like we do. Tis difficult to teach English and trying to encourage the Spanish to expand their vocab so they're not overusing the same word. They don't seem to get it at all. I have the opposite difficulty - trying to find another way of saying the same thing when they tend to keep things quite simply here (which obviously makes it easier for me).

vamos!

I speak a few languages and have to say that I find German to be the easiest. I teach French and German and students still have this preconceived notion that German is hard and French is easy. Languages are useful to broaden your horizons, keep your brain active by reading foreign texts and watching TV or films but employment prospects with languages only (BA) are poor. There are lots and lots of multilingual jobs but they pay is awful. Considering our growing dependence on emigration and the strength of the German economy, wish the Government and media would make such a big deal out of promoting languages as they did with science. Lots of European countries consider it normal to learn two or three languages. Our timetables usually allow for one, two max. Also, unless Chinese teachers are trained properly and we son't bring it is as a new Junior Cert 'short course', bringing in Chinese cos Quinn thinks it sound nice will be a disaster. Everyone will learn a snippit of Chinese that will be of no benefit long-term.

OnTheCouch

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I speaky dee Spanish and I was visiting home over the weekend. Yesterday we went out for lunch in my hometown and the waitress was Spanish with atrocious English (she was there to learn English) and was really struggling to understand our orders. Felt great to be able to translate it all to her and chat to her after (she asked me to). I felt pretty cool :cool: I'm moving onto Italian or Portuguese next. It really opens up so many doors.

And this idea that it's only worth learning something if it benefits your careers is deeply depressing.

Ah yes, this situation can happen from time to time, it really provides a great sense of pride when you can help out like you did.

However, what struck me most about this story was how this girl was hired to be a waitress with such poor English. Clearly she won't bump into too many fluent Spanish speakers in Ireland like yourself and the potential for confusion/unhappy customers/the establishment getting a bad name seems quite high to say the least. So one would wonder why would management take such a risk by taking someone on who has to deal directly with the punters.

Coming back to the languages, leaving aside my above 'risk' argument, for the girl itself, it's probably a fantastic opportunity for her to improve her level quickly. With so much at stake, as opposed to her coming over just for a few weeks on a language course or whatever, her brain will have to focus and process the linguistical challenges at least two or three times faster than if she were just learning for her own benefit (ie with no potentially unhappy customers in the equation) and provided she stays in the job, will undoubtedly learn far quicker than a normal language student.

Legs.Eleven

OnTheCouch wrote: »

Ah yes, this situation can happen from time to time, it really provides a great sense of pride when you can help out like you did.

However, what struck me most about this story was how this girl was hired to be a waitress with such poor English. Clearly she won't bump into too many fluent Spanish speakers in Ireland like yourself and the potential for confusion/unhappy customers/the establishment getting a bad name seems quite high to say the least. So one would wonder why would management take such a risk by taking someone on who has to deal directly with the punters.

Coming back to the languages, leaving aside my above 'risk' argument, for the girl itself, it's probably a fantastic opportunity for her to improve her level quickly. With so much at stake, as opposed to her coming over just for a few weeks on a language course or whatever, her brain will have to focus and process the linguistical challenges at least two or three times faster than if she were just learning for her own benefit (ie with no potentially unhappy customers in the equation) and provided she stays in the job, will undoubtedly learn far quicker than a normal language student.

She was friends with the owners who are Italian. Now when I say atrocious I mean B1. She had a decent base. She basically spoke in the present tense and I had to ask her if she was currently living in Madrid (and just here for a few weeks) or she had lived in Madrid before moving to Ireland permanently/long-term. Her listening skills were pretty bad and my family, bar myself, would speak very clearly. She was very friendly though and not shy at all about making mistakes. Her charm more than made up for it though and the other customers seemed very patient with her. She's doing something most Spaniards would never do and I think she'll be great in English before long.

Embarrassment is the biggest obstacle to overcome when learning a language.

coffee_cake

Lams wrote: »

Do you take exams to become qualified to b1, b2 etc?

I've started learning again having done it in school and would like to know what level I'm at now.

Oh right, I just did French in school
Well, german has the Zertifikat for B2, I'm sure the others have some kind of equivalent
Here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages#Equivalences_of_common_tests_to_CEFR_levels

languagenerd

Lams wrote: »

Do you take exams to become qualified to b1, b2 etc?

I've started learning again having done it in school and would like to know what level I'm at now.

Yes, you do. The Spanish ones are called DELE, the French ones are DELF - I don't know about Italian but I imagine they have something similar. Many of them require you to do specific language courses before taking the exam.

Leaving Cert is about B1 or B2 (depending on the level and how much effort you put in), language degrees are C1 or C2.

Franticfrank

Living abroad is hugely helpful - talk to any French or Germans that have done the whole Australia thing for a year and see how much of a difference it makes. I think we have a huge advantage coming from Ireland - look at statistics on the world's most spoken languages. Companies abroad will always need English speakers but realistically, you do need to speak the country's native language to have any kind of a happy life. Your colleagues would appreciate an effort on your part, you're not left out as much and you can progress much further within the job. It really is worthwhile spending time learning a new language.

OnTheCouch

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

She was friends with the owners who are Italian. Now when I say atrocious I mean B1. She had a decent base. She basically spoke in the present tense and I had to ask her if she was currently living in Madrid (and just here for a few weeks) or she had lived in Madrid before moving to Ireland permanently/long-term. Her listening skills were pretty bad and my family, bar myself, would speak very clearly. She was very friendly though and not shy at all about making mistakes. Her charm more than made up for it though and the other customers seemed very patient with her. She's doing something most Spaniards would never do and I think she'll be great in English before long.

Embarrassment is the biggest obstacle to overcome when learning a language.

Ah OK, yeah I think it's a little harsh to call a B1 level atrocious. No, just joking:D

Mind you, something which may explain to some degree what you said is when native speakers are asked to comment on a foreigner's level of their language. I have noticed they can very often can have quite a 'black and white' view. This means, until the foreigner reaches a certain standard of proficiency, they are generally considered hopeless. And then, after this, suddenly they are actually 'pretty good' or 'excellent' even. I would say this is usually around the B2-C1 level. I find it interesting how only a slight improvement at times can lead a person to radically change their opinion on someone's level in a language, whether this comes about through appreciation of slang, correct use of a tricky tense such as the subjunctive or being able to follow a native conversation.

Now I don't know if this was the case for you or not when you initally heard the girl speak English, but maybe as a language teacher yourself you may have a greater understanding of why this phenomenon exists?

Legs.Eleven

OnTheCouch wrote: »

Ah OK, yeah I think it's a little harsh to call a B1 level atrocious. No, just joking:D

Mind you, something which may explain to some degree what you said is when native speakers are asked to comment on a foreigner's level of their language. I have noticed they can very often can have quite a 'black and white' view. This means, until the foreigner reaches a certain standard of proficiency, they are generally considered hopeless. And then, after this, suddenly they are actually 'pretty good' or 'excellent' even. I would say this is usually around the B2-C1 level. I find it interesting how only a slight improvement at times can lead a person to radically change their opinion on someone's level in a language, whether this comes about through appreciation of slang, correct use of a tricky tense such as the subjunctive or being able to follow a native conversation.

Now I don't know if this was the case for you or not when you initally heard the girl speak English, but maybe as a language teacher yourself you may have a greater understanding of why this phenomenon exists?

Oh now I feel bad using the word atrocious Too strong a word to describe her. I suppose it was the fact that she spoke exclusively in the present tense and I am 100% sure she knew her past tenses plus she was flustered and stressed, so I'm guessing in a different context, she'd be much better, I'm sure. Speaking only in the present tense sounds terrible in any language. This is a massive problem among Spaniards and it leaves me like this :eek: I have to tell them that they can't speak that way; that the conjugation of verbs in English is easy peasy and there's no excuse to speak that way.

Learning Spanish myself, I've had mixed feedback and I think in this country there's a great appreciation of colloquial Spanish and slang. It's only recently I'm using it as I tried to perfect "proper" Spanish first. When I drop in some slang, they're very impressed.

I think pronunciation (not accent) has a huge amount to do with it though. I have a friend here who's Greek-Canadian and has a A2/B1 level of Spanish (I'm B2 approaching C1) and she's often complimented on her Spanish because her pronunciation is spot on and she speaks very clearly, concisely and slowly...but she hasn't taken a class and speaks in the present tense and her vocab is very limited and would avoid reflexing (is that a word?) the verb and you can forget about the subjunctive. Drives me a little potty.

With my own students, I have to be careful not to be "tricked" by the same thing. I have to really listen to what they're saying to listen out for grammatical errors, their range of vocab etc. because you could easily believe they're better than they are when they speak with a neutral accent. Same goes for those who can't rid themselves of the very strong Spanish accent but have a great level. Tis a funny one.

bodice ripper

Much to my surprise, German has been the most financially useful thing I learned in school, in that I can understand what people are saying in Dutch when pressed.

Nemeses

I can only speak one language, and can barely do that well...

What is the best way of teaching yo'self a second language - or more definitive - The easiest,laziest way of going about this.

Lams

bodice ripper wrote: »

Much to my surprise, German has been the most financially useful thing I learned in school, in that I can understand what people are saying in Dutch when pressed.

Ya, und auch, man kann nicht seine eigene Mutterprache verstehen, wenn man nicht eine fremde Sprache Spricht.

old hippy

If I could have a super power, it would be to converse in and comprehend any language. Imagine, you could truly be a global citizen.

Lams

old hippy wrote: »

If I could have a super power, it would be to converse in and comprehend any language. Imagine, you could truly be a global citizen.

Well it takes consistent time and effort so if you are lazy it's going to be extra tough. I find courses like linguaphone and Rosetta Stone are the best way.

Duck's hoop

It's a super power he wants. Not advice.

kingtiger

feck it, just wait for the universal translator to become available, should be here in a few years

WanabeOlympian

If we had other EU languages we could get a ryanair flight to, say, Germany or Switzerland and get a good job there. Learning a second language is not all that difficult. The methods used on mainland Europe actually work compared to the out dated methodology used here. Outdated? Yes, and proven as far back as the 1960s to be very ineffective with the majority of individuals. Who knows why we still use out dated ineffective methods.

Also just to add, there are more German mother tongue speakers in the EU than English speakers. So there are more people in the EU who speak German as their first language than English speakers. Although of course, English is the main commercial language globally.

jimgoose

Foreign languages are great. All men of culture and means should speak Italian to their wives, French to their mistresses, English to the gardener, Russian to the chap who services the cars, and German to the dog. :cool:

OakeyDokey

Love languages!

They open you up to many opportunities abroad and they are handy for when you travel. I want to learn more languages!

old hippy

Lams wrote: »

Well it takes consistent time and effort so if you are lazy it's going to be extra tough. I find courses like linguaphone and Rosetta Stone are the best way.

I have tried to learn the significant other's language but it is difficult, esp after a long day. If only she was French, I can get by in that!

OldNotWIse

Thought you meant the people

CrazyRabbit

Fluorescence wrote: »

They're not so much languages as mathematical concepts with differing syntax.

They are more similar to verbal languages than they are dissimilar.

Kichote wrote: »

Are there any programming languages that arent based on english or even the latin alphabet?

In all the mainstream languages the keywords and built in functions are all based on some english word

Also learning them is pretty useless unless you can magic 5 years of industry experience onto yourself because most jobs require that.

All that I know of use our standard alphabet. Well, except Assembly, but you'd have to be sadist to use that (I used it waaay back on the C64..hehe).

As for needing 5 years of industry experience...well that's not true. Employers just need proof that you are competent. And the best way to prove this to show them examples of your code/applications.

jester77 wrote: »

I find German to be useful.

Yes..it's great for WWII movies.

Fluorescence

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

They are more similar to verbal languages than they are dissimilar.

They're written in English but you couldn't realistically communicate with another human with programming languages. They're completely different beasts to human languages.

jimgoose

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

...All that I know of use our standard alphabet. Well, except Assembly, but you'd have to be sadist to use that (I used it waaay back on the C64..hehe).

As for needing 5 years of industry experience...well that's not true. Employers just need proof that you are competent. And the best way to prove this to show them examples of your code/applications...

APL. KDB. Modern superscalar assembler languages, with Ye Olde Delaye Slotte.

jimgoose

Fluorescence wrote: »

They're written in English but you couldn't realistically communicate with another human with programming languages. They're completely different beasts to human languages.

They aren't beasts at all, far from it. Would that they were. That is hardly the point.

Fluorescence

jimgoose wrote: »

They aren't beasts at all, far from it. Would that they were. That is hardly the point.

It kinda is when people are saying "learn computer languages instead of human languages" as if they're comparable. They're not. I enjoy BOTH. Why should someone pick one or the other? They have entirely different uses. Languages help you understand culture, coding helps you understand maths and technology.

oppenheimer1

keelanj69 wrote: »

Considering we live in an english speaking country, with a poor grasp of second or third languages, is there any merit to learning German/French/Chinese?

Every Tömas, Richard und Harry can speak multiple languages on the mainland whereas we struggle to maintain any Irish or otherwise after school.

Especially Chinese. People are always going on about oppurtunities with Chinese but are they overstated? If not I better get learning.

Thoughts, anyone? Should we just focus on english and leave the other languages to native speakers in a world that mixes more than ever?

Well I think every sentence should be a paragraph.

I do.

4zn76tysfajdxp

I'm currently trying to learn the Finnish language and from what I can see, persistence really is the key above anything else. I don't have a natural flair for languages by any means and it's considered a really difficult language but I just keep plugging away, putting the hours in and somehow it's sticking.

keelanj69

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Well I think every sentence should be a paragraph.

I do.

Your

contribution

is

noted.

jimgoose

Fluorescence wrote: »

It kinda is when people are saying "learn computer languages instead of human languages" as if they're comparable. They're not. I enjoy BOTH. Why should someone pick one or the other? They have entirely different uses. Languages help you understand culture, coding helps you understand maths and technology.

There is a difference? Computers are a complete waste of time.