In reality, how useful are German, French etc

keith16

Tom_Cruise wrote: »

Can some one please help me?

How long does it take to learn a language and what is the best method/s?

Hi Tom, learning a language is a lot more difficult than learning an accent

Seriously tho it will differ for all individuals and how much you are willing to put into it. Some people find things like CDs or Rosetta Stone helpful.

I personally prefer a classroom environment and speaking the language with fellow learners. Also, it depends on how good you want to become. Ultimately, if you want to become fluent, you will need to immerse yourself fully in the target language.

There are a huge number of resources on the web for getting started and supporting your learning experience. Such as "fluent in 3 months" and reddit.

Finally, have a positive attitude. Children learn languages much more quickly than adults because they are not predisposed to failure and don't have the ability to doubt themselves.

http://www.fluentin3months.com/

http://lwt.sourceforge.net/

http://www.reddit.com/r/language/

http://99chan.org/speak/

MickFleetwood

Tom_Cruise wrote: »

Can some one please help me?

How long does it take to learn a language and what is the best method/s?

How long is a piece of string? You may have a natural ability for learning languages.

OnTheCouch

rio1 wrote: »

If you mean useful from a career point of view then unless you are a teacher or translator they are only useful for certain jobs. I speak three European languages fluently and find most of the jobs are at a junior level or in call centres. I used my languages when I started working but as my career progressed found they were not the way to go as you are limited when applying for senior roles if you have to combine your profession with your languages.

The are hugely useful on a personal level though, opening up new worlds culturally, from literature to film and music. It's also great to be able to talk to people in their own language when abroad and be aware of what's going on around you.

Very much so. It is, in my opinion, a common misperception that languages hugely help you career-wise. Generally, the speaking of said language is itself not enough, a particular qualification is required, especially for something decent like teaching/translation as you mention. Otherwise, languages will essentially be useful for call centres and a few sales positions, but not much else. As has been already mentioned, the capability to do the job is key. It is this, not whatever language skills one has which is of paramount importance when applying. The languages will generally be treated as a bonus, but won't carry that much weight at the end of the day. As you say, it's more the enrichment you get on a personal level that makes them worth learning.

A huge problem I also find when abroad is trying to hide the fact you are an Anglophone. In my experience, given English is the most important language in the world, once people find out it's your first language, they immediately switch to it when speaking to you. Probably through a combination of politeness and a desire to improve their own level. This is not an issue if you are extremely insistent (even at a fairly basic level strong insistence/stubborness can persuade the other person to keep speaking the language you want) or extremely fluent. Unfortunately not everyone falls into the latter two categories.

languagenerd

Learning foreign languages is great for opening your mind and broadening your horizons. I don't think you can fully understand another culture unless you speak its native language - languages are molded by society, culture and human experience. It opens many doors for you in terms of emigrating, travelling and meeting new people. While foreign languages on their own mightn't get you a job, they are a huge asset when job-hunting and they give you the opportunity to look for work in other countries, not just English-speaking ones.

I speak four languages (to varying degrees) and I use them:
- in work when dealing with tourists
- when talking to my foreign friends
- when travelling
- to read books and newspapers in other languages (some of the best books I've ever read were in other languages and the translation wouldn't have been the same; also you get more info on some news stories by reading what foreign journalists are saying about them)
- to yell at my computer when it stops working :pac: (okay, technically not a great use, but Spanish is just the best language to be angry in)

I don't like the "ah well everyone else learns English so we won't bother" attitude. First of all, not everyone speaks English. Secondly, why should we expect others to change just to accommodate us? There are far more native French and German speakers in Europe than English, it should really be the other way around when you think about it!

CrazyRabbit

The most useful would be some of the computer programming languages. Decent paying jobs, good job security, good for the grey matter & personally quite useful.

Fluorescence

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

The most useful would be some of the computer programming languages. Decent paying jobs, good job security, good for the grey matter & personally quite useful.

They're not so much languages as mathematical concepts with differing syntax.

MOC88

yore wrote: »

Cue lots of self-hating idiots complaining about Irish and how it deprived them of becoming fluent in 56 languages and going on to cure cancer and solve world poverty.

When in reality, if they didn't have Irish classes, they'd just have devoted those extra 3 or so hours a week to playing with themselves

Would've preferred 5 hours on things like science in primary school rather than the auld Irish. I wouldn't have cured cancer but it would be hard to see how ot wouldn't benefit - whereas with Irish I can't see any benefit to anyone outside the Government grant schemes. The fact that it is acceptable to have an abysmal level of maths as long as you have a good grasp of Irish makes little sense.

A computer language would be more beneficial these days!

If you have German it is great for getting jobs in Germany (obviously) especially in Engineering etc as they require you to be a German speaker. where a lot of the best jobs are. I can't see a massive benefit in Chinese with the much lower level of wages there. If you want go in to translation U.N etc. you'd have to have more than one... the more the better.

If you got to a certain stage in Business it would be priceless though.

So its as useful as the opportunities you create or make for yourself.

MOC88

Fluorescence wrote: »

They're not so much languages as mathematical concepts with differing syntax.

PPerl is meant to be very similar to a conventional language... i'm not speaking from experience though I've no experience with it

candy-gal1

Quite important imho, considering how many job applications say "what languages do you have?" etc etc
Tis just our multi cultural "great" society I guess, but yeah having as many languages as possable is important nowadays it seems, for getting a job anyway :rolleyes:

Kichote

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

The most useful would be some of the computer programming languages. Decent paying jobs, good job security, good for the grey matter & personally quite useful.

Are there any programming languages that arent based on english or even the latin alphabet?

In all the mainstream languages the keywords and built in functions are all based on some english word

Also learning them is pretty useless unless you can magic 5 years of industry experience onto yourself because most jobs require that.

General General

JanaMay wrote: »

Have a look at some of those jobs though. They ask for FLUENT second language alongside another qualification (sometimes a Degree/ Professional qualification requiring many years of study) as well as years of relevant work experience. For most people, to become FLUENT in a second language requires at least an Undergraduate degree as well as time spent working in that particular country. This level of expertise is not usually reflected in the salary offered in this type of job.

I think the Undergraduate degree statement here is less than true. If someone had focus, a couple of hours of following a course & reading some media at an appropriate level 5 or 6 days a week, for around a year, plus a regular conversation partner & you'd be a long way down the road to serious skills in the language (say French, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Portuguese... Polish, Russian & many others, substantially more difficult for a typical native English speaker).

After that, a good idea would be go work in a bar (maybe an Irish bar) for six months in a city where the target language is the main language & do your utmost to speak the target language..

I do think that some of us like to place barriers up for ourselves by making the task seem much more difficult than it is, a sort of protective incompetence. Oh, I would need a degree to even think about blah blah... same goes, by the way, for programming... 5 years experience, me ar5e, lots of companies would employ a person that was coding for three months, if it was obvious the person was the kind who knew what they were doing..

Gary Sprake

I started learning Polish about a month ago. I have just about got over the initial shock of the spelling and pronunciation and I have started to make a slight bit of progress. I learned German about ten years ago using the Linguaphone beginners and intermediate courses. I was a bit surprised that Linguaphone didn't have a Polish course. There are lots of good reasons to learn another language. It exercises the brain and it helps to build bridges. And my beautiful Polish girlfriend is very appreciative of my efforts...:).

Legs.Eleven

I speaky dee Spanish and I was visiting home over the weekend. Yesterday we went out for lunch in my hometown and the waitress was Spanish with atrocious English (she was there to learn English) and was really struggling to understand our orders. Felt great to be able to translate it all to her and chat to her after (she asked me to). I felt pretty cool :cool: I'm moving onto Italian or Portuguese next. It really opens up so many doors.

And this idea that it's only worth learning something if it benefits your careers is deeply depressing.

JanaMay

General General wrote: »

I think the Undergraduate degree statement here is less than true. If someone had focus, a couple of hours of following a course & reading some media at an appropriate level 5 or 6 days a week, for around a year, plus a regular conversation partner & you'd be a long way down the road to serious skills in the language (say French, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Portuguese... Polish, Russian & many others, substantially more difficult for a typical native English speaker).

After that, a good idea would be go work in a bar (maybe an Irish bar) for six months in a city where the target language is the main language & do your utmost to speak the target language..

I do think that some of us like to place barriers up for ourselves by making the task seem much more difficult than it is, a sort of protective incompetence. Oh, I would need a degree to even think about blah blah... same goes, by the way, for programming... 5 years experience, me ar5e, lots of companies would employ a person that was coding for three months, if it was obvious the person was the kind who knew what they were doing..

I see your point. To be honest, when I mentioned a Degree what I meant was really a period of sustained study. Obviously the length of time required would depend on the individual's aptitude for language learning. But yeah, there are loads of alternatives to a university degree...all requiring an intelligent approach to study and practice (as you mentioned: a course etc to start you off with grammar and structure, regular conversation practice, appropriate level reading/listening etc...nowadays there are a wealth of materials at our disposal). It's by no means necessary to go to college, if the person is motivated.

To become 'fluent' though, six months working in an Irish bar abroad might not be enough. Again it's subjective, but I always found that for me, it was better to 'abandon' English (as much as possible) when I went abroad, so I was forced to use the 2nd language all day every day. It's not always possible since most jobs we English speakers apply for abroad are based on our knowing English. (tourism, ESL etc).

Lams

JanaMay wrote: »

I see your point. To be honest, when I mentioned a Degree what I meant was really a period of sustained study. Obviously the length of time required would depend on the individual's aptitude for language learning. But yeah, there are loads of alternatives to a university degree...all requiring an intelligent approach to study and practice (as you mentioned: a course etc to start you off with grammar and structure, regular conversation practice, appropriate level reading/listening etc...nowadays there are a wealth of materials at our disposal). It's by no means necessary to go to college, if the person is motivated.

To become 'fluent' though, six months working in an Irish bar abroad might not be enough. Again it's subjective, but I always found that for me, it was better to 'abandon' English (as much as possible) when I went abroad, so I was forced to use the 2nd language all day every day. It's not always possible since most jobs we English speakers apply for abroad are based on our knowing English. (tourism, ESL etc).

I've started learning italian a few weeks ago and Infully expect to be at least semi fluent by the end of the year. I literally spend about 2 - 3 hours per week studying italian, once you get yourself a good course like Rosetta Stone or linguaphone it's easy, degrees in languages are a waste of time IMO.

jester77

I find German to be useful.

JanaMay

Lams wrote: »

I've started learning italian a few weeks ago and Infully expect to be at least semi fluent by the end of the year. I literally spend about 2 - 3 hours per week studying italian, once you get yourself a good course like Rosetta Stone or linguaphone it's easy, degrees in languages are a waste of time IMO.

It all depends on what you want to get out of it, or what you want to use the language for. A year of Rosetta Stone etc plus speaking practice will get you to a very good conversational level, with enough Italian to go about your daily business no problem. I disagree that degrees in languages are a waste of time though.

Duck's hoop

Lams wrote: »

I've started learning italian a few weeks ago and Infully expect to be at least semi fluent by the end of the year. I literally spend about 2 - 3 hours per week studying italian, once you get yourself a good course like Rosetta Stone or linguaphone it's easy, degrees in languages are a waste of time IMO.

What is semi fluent? You've spent 2 hours (literally) a week for the past 3 weeks 'learning' Italian. On this basis you dismiss language degrees. Which, btw, are pretty work heavy, extremely comprehensive and one of the more difficult courses to take as part of BA for example.

coffee_cake

Semi fluent on 2 hours a week? Eh, no...
I've been doing german 3 hours a week for 2.5 years and I'm at the second half of B2 level, you'll be ok to get by after 1 year but not semi fluent... whatever that is
Even if italian is supposed to be easy!

General General

Lams wrote: »

I've started learning italian a few weeks ago and Infully expect to be at least semi fluent by the end of the year. I literally spend about 2 - 3 hours per week studying italian, once you get yourself a good course like Rosetta Stone or linguaphone it's easy, degrees in languages are a waste of time IMO.

bluewolf wrote: »

Semi fluent on 2 hours a week? Eh, no...
I've been doing german 3 hours a week for 2.5 years and I'm at the second half of B2 level, you'll be ok to get by after 1 year but not semi fluent... whatever that is
Even if italian is supposed to be easy!

German is way harder than Italian, I think. If Lams has a fair knowledge of French or Spanish, maybe 'semi fluent' (I'm guessing Lams means fluent in most day to day 'basic' transactions, minus slang, something much less than fluent, yet still functioning in more advanced situations) isn't out of the question. In my first year in college, I heard someone say that it took them 6 weeks to get Italian as a working language... I'm guessing this over-stated the case, there was no literature & the same grasp of the subjunctives as one famous Italian (culture?) minister.. but not impossible, I suppose.

Language degrees are not useless, far from it. However, there's a lot in a languages degree that someone doesn't need to know if they're say an Engineer who wants to work in language X, Y or Z. In fact, for that Engineer, Dante or Cavalleria Rusticana are 'useless'...

Yep, I name-dropped Cavalleria Rusticana... oooooh... aren't I just great?

Lams

bluewolf wrote: »

Semi fluent on 2 hours a week? Eh, no...
I've been doing german 3 hours a week for 2.5 years and I'm at the second half of B2 level, you'll be ok to get by after 1 year but not semi fluent... whatever that is
Even if italian is supposed to be easy!

I'd regard semi fluent as around B1/B2 territory and I maintain I'll get there by the end of the year.

coffee_cake

Alright, maybe with italian you will
Best of luck with it

Lams

General General wrote: »

German is way harder than Italian, I think. If Lams has a fair knowledge of French or Spanish, maybe 'semi fluent' (I'm guessing Lams means fluent in most day to day 'basic' transactions, minus slang, something much less than fluent, yet still functioning in more advanced situations) isn't out of the question. In my first year in college, I heard someone say that it took them 6 weeks to get Italian as a working language... I'm guessing this over-stated the case, there was no literature & the same grasp of the subjunctives as one famous Italian (culture?) minister.. but not impossible, I suppose.

Language degrees are not useless, far from it. However, there's a lot in a languages degree that someone doesn't need to know if they're say an Engineer who wants to work in language X, Y or Z. In fact, for that Engineer, Dante or Cavalleria Rusticana are 'useless'...

Yep, I name-dropped Cavalleria Rusticana... oooooh... aren't I just great?

I must add I speak some German so Inthink already having become familiar with another language has made it easier to learn Italian as I know already how not to think in English.

Tombo2001

I did an Erasmus course in France, achieved a pretty decent level of French.

I've never used French in a work context. Not once. I would say the same applies to all the other students I was on Erasmus with.

Having said that, I'm still glad I did it and still glad I learned French.

You could look at it another way; it was a lot more useful (to me) than the Chemistry, Applied Maths, Religion, Irish, Mechanical Drawing that I studied in secondary school.

OnTheCouch

General General wrote: »

I think the Undergraduate degree statement here is less than true. If someone had focus, a couple of hours of following a course & reading some media at an appropriate level 5 or 6 days a week, for around a year, plus a regular conversation partner & you'd be a long way down the road to serious skills in the language (say French, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Portuguese... Polish, Russian & many others, substantially more difficult for a typical native English speaker).

After that, a good idea would be go work in a bar (maybe an Irish bar) for six months in a city where the target language is the main language & do your utmost to speak the target language..

I do think that some of us like to place barriers up for ourselves by making the task seem much more difficult than it is, a sort of protective incompetence. Oh, I would need a degree to even think about blah blah... same goes, by the way, for programming... 5 years experience, me ar5e, lots of companies would employ a person that was coding for three months, if it was obvious the person was the kind who knew what they were doing..

I think what JanaMay meant (forgive me if I misunderstood) was that even if someone undergoes the steps you mention and gets to a very competent level in the language, employers will still be hesitant. They seem to believe that only a degree in the specific language - which is not to be underestimated of course - will convince them the knowledge of the language is sufficiently profound to be hired. Which I agree with to a certain extent, as having conversational skills is all well and good, but is often insufficient for more technical, in-depth professional work.

Of course, what they really should do is test a candidate's level, but I suppose there are so many applications these days they can't go through them all and just look for the degree qualification.

coffee_cake

Well the ECFR is a good standard, you can do one of the qualifications for those levels, I am sure they are internationally recognised (in europe) by employers

Legs.Eleven

bluewolf wrote: »

Alright, maybe with italian you will
Best of luck with it

Yeah I'm guessing Spanish is much like Italian to learn and if you work hard at it, you could probably get to B1/B2 in a year. Once you get past the grammar in Spanish (subjunctive and conjugation of verbs), you're away.


I've heard German is tough in comparison.

coffee_cake

I think the grammar is all lovely and logical in german It's all about the vocab now
Spanish seems simple enough and it's true having one romance language helps with the others; I was ok reading the instructions on train machines and stuff in italy

Legs.Eleven

General General wrote: »

German is way harder than Italian, I think. If Lams has a fair knowledge of French or Spanish, maybe 'semi fluent' (I'm guessing Lams means fluent in most day to day 'basic' transactions, minus slang, something much less than fluent, yet still functioning in more advanced situations) isn't out of the question. In my first year in college, I heard someone say that it took them 6 weeks to get Italian as a working language... I'm guessing this over-stated the case, there was no literature & the same grasp of the subjunctives as one famous Italian (culture?) minister.. but not impossible, I suppose.

Language degrees are not useless, far from it. However, there's a lot in a languages degree that someone doesn't need to know if they're say an Engineer who wants to work in language X, Y or Z. In fact, for that Engineer, Dante or Cavalleria Rusticana are 'useless'...

Yep, I name-dropped Cavalleria Rusticana... oooooh... aren't I just great?

I'm guessing she/he didn't use the subjunctive? I heard this is common enough in Italy but completely unheard of here in Spain. Doesn't matter on the education level of who's talking, they'll always use it. I pretty much spoke for 2 years without it - I must've sounded like a right hick.

Lams

bluewolf wrote: »

I think the grammar is all lovely and logical in german It's all about the vocab now
Spanish seems simple enough and it's true having one romance language helps with the others; I was ok reading the instructions on train machines and stuff in italy

Do you take exams to become qualified to b1, b2 etc?

I've started learning again having done it in school and would like to know what level I'm at now.