Smacking yes or no

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Miss Lockhart wrote: »

And all the kids I see being smacked for discipline are cheeky little sh1ts that run wild and have no respect for anyone. I teach them every day. They get walloped for misbehaviour but they couldn't give a sh1t. Believe me, most of the tearaways moaned about on AH on a daily basis (the so called "skangers") come from homes where smacking is the go to response.

It's not the smack or lack of that determines whether the discipline is successful - it's the whole package of how the child is raised.

Personally I think resorting to smacking is failure. If you've had to go there then you have failed to deal with a situation and you have just taken the easy way out to ease your own frustrations. Now don't get me wrong, I don't believe that children who are smacked the odd time are damaged for life and nor do I think their parents have utterly failed in their roles, but I do think that the smack serves no disciplinary purpose and is a failure of parenting at that time. Either the parenting is successful overall and the smack is unnecessary or the parenting is not successful overall and the smack is futile.

I have never ever seen a parent smack a child in a calm or controlled way, as claimed by so many proponents of smacking. It has always, without exception, been an act of anger and frustration.

Not arguing for the sake of it or anything, since you're around kids the whole time etc. what do you reckon about the whole "running out in front of the car needs a more extreme lesson" argument?

OldNotWIse

vitani wrote: »

What would you suggest she do? A toddler having a tantrum shouldn't be punished, IMO. They're angry and frustrated and they've lost control of their feelings but they're not being bold or doing something wrong. They're simply not capable of reason at that age.

As long as the parent isn't giving in to the tantrum to placate the child, then they're doing all they can. Tantrums will ease off as the child grows up.

well perhaps nothing then, but seriously, making baby reindeer cry? What was she trying to do, make him feel guilty or ashamed? Is that acceptable?

IM0

vitani wrote: »

What would you suggest she do? A toddler having a tantrum shouldn't be punished, IMO. They're angry and frustrated and they've lost control of their feelings but they're not being bold or doing something wrong. They're simply not capable of reason at that age.

As long as the parent isn't giving in to the tantrum to placate the child, then they're doing all they can. Tantrums will ease off as the child grows up.

wrong so wrong a child reads facial expressions from a parent and others, this is why its so important to smile and love your child so it doesnt matter if they reason or not you are working on instincts at that age, and basically sowing the seeds of how that child will develop like. they are sponges taking in everything around them. you dont just decide to start parenting when you think they are capable of reason :rolleyes:

they need a balance of love, affection, discipline, acceptance ect. there is no manual but tap into your base instincts and you are half way there

Randy Shafter

I don't see the big deal with giving a child a disciplined slap if they refuse to stop doing what they were told not to do. Both my brother and I got slapped for being little s***tes! Taught us not to do it again and made us respect our parents and elders. In some cases, raising your voice or verbal threats don't work and the kid still runs amock. In those cases, perhaps a disciplined slap is what will get through to the child and remind them not to do it again in the future.

IM0

OldNotWIse wrote: »

well perhaps nothing then, but seriously, making baby reindeer cry? What was she trying to do, make him feel guilty or ashamed? Is that acceptable?

always thought the 'make baby jesus cry' thing was a meme, but turns out its from parenting :pac:

50SofG

my son threw a tantrum in a shopping centre about age 3or 4, i was on my own doing shopping baby was in the trolley,
i have alot of time for kids , anyway there was women looking at me, i could see they were thinking, how's he going to handle this one,
son was lying on ground screaming kicking baby was crying,
so i did what any parent would do .. i ran.. no joking i ly on the floor of the supermarket with him kicked my legs and screamed, he stopped got up and held the trolley, i kissed the baby on the head and said now son wasn't that embrassing for you,

i laugh now when i see the add on the TV because it so worked for me many years ago.

Ush1

GreeBo wrote: »

Child are not adults. They often cannot be reasoned with logically.
The do understand a smack though, in the same way a dog does.

I wouldn't smack a dog either.

Why is the jump from not being able to reason with something to hitting them?

SpaceTime

Well we all know how Ned Flanders turned out due to the use of the University of Minnesota Spankalogical Protocol http://simpsonswiki.net/wiki/University_of_Minnesota_Spankalogical_Protocol

Tiddlypeeps

humbert wrote: »

It teaches them that the have done something bold and have been punished. Unless the parent in question is consistently terrible the child will still have no doubt that they are loved and that the parent has their best interest at heart.

Children aren't computers, they recognise that different relationships obey different sets of rules.

So as long as the person doing the hitting loves the child being hit it's ok?

So if a person hits their spouse when they do something wrong is that ok because they love them and only have their best interest at heart?

caustic 1 wrote: »

I know a family who are all overweight, and the youngest child when he having tea takes out all the biscuits lines them up in front of him before anyone else can get at them, maybe five or six or more in a row, and no one says don't do that, just laughs and says are you going to eat all the biscuits, a big joke and he and whole family clearly overweight. That to me is more wrong than then odd smack for doing something wrong.

Whataboutary. Just because other parents do other things wrong does not make the thing you are defending right. Your logic is akin to saying it's ok to steal because some people murder.

vitani

OldNotWIse wrote: »

well perhaps nothing then, but seriously, making baby reindeer cry? What was she trying to do, make him feel guilty or ashamed? Is that acceptable?

I wouldn't use that strategy either so I'll give you that one.

The impression I got from your post was that she should be stricter in stopping the tantrum. If I'm wrong, fair enough.

IM0 wrote: »

wrong so wrong a child reads facial expressions from a parent and others, this is why its so important to smile and love your child so it doesnt matter if they reason or not you are working on instincts at that age, and basically sowing the seeds of how that child will develop like. they are sponges taking in everything around them. you dont just decide to start parenting when you think they are capable of reason :rolleyes:

they need a balance of love, affection, discipline, acceptance ect. there is no manual but tap into your base instincts and you are half way there

I'm confused... but I've just seen that you posted right before I did. The IMO in my post wasn't referring to you.

I never claimed that you shouldn't parent them before they can reason. I was just disagreeing that any kind of punishment needed to be doled out to a toddler having a (perfectly normal) tantrum.

50SofG

a parent walking down the road gets bumped into by a stranger in a rush, the stranger knocks the shopping bag from their hand's
"sorry" says the stranger
it's ok these thing happen
they pick up the shopping and move on....

a parent making the dinner get bumped into by their kid in a rush,
sorry says the kid
you fe*k idiot.. Slap.. look what you made me do...slap
kid feel sh1t and parent is angry


turns out the stranger robbed her wallet and the kid was rushing to show her the picture they drew specially for her.

people can be more toleranr with adults than kids,
to me this is wrong

o1s1n

I've always been at odds about this one. For years I always thought 'ah sure what's the harm, we got smacked'.

Then I started going out with a primary school teacher who handles classes of crazy inner city kids from the ages of 4-12.

If she can handle a class of them (and I mean kids who's parents are junkies and threaten to 'lacerate' teachers) and really control them without smacking, then why can't a parent manage their own child without resorting to it?

Looking back, most of the times I can remember being smacked (or witnessed people smacking) are when the parents have lost it and literally have nothing else to resort to. They're angry themselves, they're embarrassed, they just want the child to stop.

Ultimately, from the kids she deals with, the ones who are the biggest trouble makes and abuse other kids tend to be the ones who are whacked out of it all the time by their junkie parents.

So there's definitely a degree of learned behaviour I reckon.

Anyway, still not 100% on it either way, but I'm convinced enough not to smack my own kids if I ever have any. (Or at least do my damn best well not to! - I know there are 'running out in front of cars' incidents etc)

Leftist

Jiggers77 wrote: »

but one guy was very pro and even went as far as to say if he had kids (Thank God he doesnt) he would have no problem taking his belt to them and believe me he wasnt kidding. Hes the same age as myself (37) and I was gob smacked.

this guy. Single? ready to mingle? just not getting a break in life and if only some of those 'stuck up bitches' gave him a chance he'd show them he's a catch?
Big into sports? in a purely spectator way. Also maybe formula 1?
these kinds of legends are usually the first to complain about parents talking too much about their child even though these overheard conversations never involve him. But it pisses him off anyway!

mikom

50SofG wrote: »

a parent making the dinner get bumped into by their kid in a rush,
sorry says the kid
you fe*k idiot.. Slap.. look what you made me do...slap
kid feel sh1t and parent is angry

Seriously, what right minded individual would slap a child for that?

Irishcrx

I'm not reading through the 9 pages here which I can imagine is a back and forth of yes and no. Each to their own really, it's none of my busines how people raise their kids and none of anyone else's business how I raise mine. Do I think kids need a smack sometimes , well some do and some are well behaved without it. I could be a little bit of a bollox when I was a kid and if I got too much i'd get a belt and to be honest I'm glad my parents did it because that along with their good parenting skills and attention to me I ended up fine.

My little fella is only a few month's but I'd be adapting the same with him in the hope that he will be well behaved and never need it, but in the real world i'm sure there will be times where he will require disipline , would I ever over do it? No, would I feel bad even doing a smack yes? But I'm his father and it's my job to ensure he grows up knowing right from wrong in the best way I see fit.

And I'm not trying to brand everyone with the same brush here, but from seeing a lot of parents/friends who are totally against disipline and would argue heaven and earth against it, there kids are little ****ers who run the house and have no respect for them or people around them, there is no chance I would put up with that in my house you might think your doing them a favour, being there friend, letting them have what they want, 'ah sure their happy etc' a happy child is a well loved , disiplined , educated child who has parents who do what's best for them and there future not just for now and not just what's the easiest option.

Chattastrophe!

For those who are in favour of smacking - would you also be in favour of your child's childminder or teacher smacking your child?

If not, how can you expect them to control and discipline your child without the use or threat of physical violence, if you can't manage to do so yourself?

mikom

Tlachtga wrote: »

For those who are in favour of smacking - would you also be in favour of your child's childminder or teacher smacking your child?

If not, how can you expect them to control and discipline your child without the use or threat of physical violence, if you can't manage to do so yourself?

Teachers teach, childminders child mind.

For those in favor of fucking...... would you also be in favour of your child's childminder or teacher riding your wife or partner?

So no, on both counts.

Boombastic

Tlachtga wrote: »

For those who are in favour of smacking - would you also be in favour of your child's childminder or teacher smacking your child?

If not, how can you expect them to control and discipline your child without the use or threat of physical violence, if you can't manage to do so yourself?

I know a creche worker. I have witnessed her at home calling her 4 year old a little cnut all because he tried to make his own breakfast and she was hungover. I don't know what she's like at work, but I wouldn't send my dog to be minded by someone who abuses dogs in their spare time.

Leftist

Irishcrx wrote: »

I'm not reading through the 9 pages here which I can imagine is a back and forth of yes and no. Each to their own really, it's none of my busines how people raise their kids and none of anyone else's business how I raise mine. Do I think kids need a smack sometimes , well some do and some are well behaved without it. I could be a little bit of a bollox when I was a kid and if I got too much i'd get a belt and to be honest I'm glad my parents did it because that along with their good parenting skills and attention to me I ended up fine.

My little fella is only a few month's but I'd be adapting the same with him in the hope that he will be well behaved and never need it, but in the real world i'm sure there will be times where he will require disipline , would I ever over do it? No, would I feel bad even doing a smack yes? But I'm his father and it's my job to ensure he grows up knowing right from wrong in the best way I see fit.

And I'm not trying to brand everyone with the same brush here, but from seeing a lot of parents/friends who are totally against disipline and would argue heaven and earth against it, there kids are little ****ers who run the house and have no respect for them or people around them, there is no chance I would put up with that in my house you might think your*** doing them a favour, being there friend, letting them have what they want, 'ah sure their* happy etc' a happy child is a well loved , disiplined , educated child who has parents who do what's best for them and there** future not just for now and not just what's the easiest option.

*they're
**their
***you're

You say you were a disciplined with violence and that it helped you 'grow up fine' but is there any indication that dialogue and non-violence towards children, as oppossed to striking them, has a negative impact on their development?

And on the other hand, you were getting into jams as a kid and slapped about, did that stop you getting into more jams?

What I'm saying is, these little ****ers that have the run of the house that you speak of, are they going to be bad eggs when they grow up? Will slapping them about now stop them being annoying?

Hoop66

I have, in the past, given my eldest (9) a smack on the leg and I think her younger sister got one once. This would have been when they were showing real defiance and not responding to other forms of discipline. I always apologised afterwards and explained why I had given them a smack.

I never hit them now, partly because I don't think it's right and partly because I can hold the "do you want a smack" in reserve as the nuclear deterrent. It seems to work, when the threat has come out it has usually calmed things down.

The naughty step seems to work best with the yonger one. She once, memorably, put herself there when she was in a bad mood.

lertsnim

I got a slap when I was up to no good as a child and so did everybody else I know. Children now are too soft.

Dravokivich

50SofG wrote: »

a parent walking down the road gets bumped into by a stranger in a rush, the stranger knocks the shopping bag from their hand's
"sorry" says the stranger
it's ok these thing happen
they pick up the shopping and move on....

a parent making the dinner get bumped into by their kid in a rush,
sorry says the kid
you fe*k idiot.. Slap.. look what you made me do...slap
kid feel sh1t and parent is angry


turns out the stranger robbed her wallet and the kid was rushing to show her the picture they drew specially for her.

people can be more toleranr with adults than kids,
to me this is wrong

You don't seem to realise what the point of this thread is. This thread is about a slight corrective action for miss behaviour. Not a torrent of pent up violent rage dispersed upon small children for the most trivial of reasons.

Gatling

Interesting this little subject ,
Father of 2 kids 4 and 1 I was always kinda pro slap in certain circumstances ,but not as an every day standard punishment ,
Having just completed a parenting course i think ive completely changed tune especially with understanding why kids misbehave and how to communicate to kids without having to resort to a slap on the hand

matTNT

I just finished my Leaving Cert and this year in one of our religion/SPHE type class thingys we did a show of hands as to who had been slapped as a child. It was truly interesting as those that were tended to be the ones who were a bit boisterous or more likely to be shooting quips at the teachers.

Therefore in this isolated case of 25-30 students slapping seemed to have exactly the opposite reaction of what one would expect. My theory is that slapping is the easy option for the weak willed or lazy parent. Maybe you are short on time and you don't have the patience to persevere with more successful methods and go for the quick fix option.

mikom

matTNT wrote: »

I just finished my Leaving Cert and this year in one of our religion/SPHE type class thingys we did a show of hands as to who had been slapped as a child. It was truly interesting as those that were tended to be the ones who were a bit boisterous or more likely to be shooting quips at the teachers.

Did you do anything about correlation and causation in the Leaving Cert?

Shenshen

Dravokivich wrote: »

You don't seem to realise what the point of this thread is. This thread is about a slight corrective action for miss behaviour. Not a torrent of pent up violent rage dispersed upon small children for the most trivial of reasons.

From reading bits of it, I'm not too sure every proponent of physically "disciplining" children agrees with you.

What I've always wondered : Where do proponents actually draw the line?
There have been posters on here proclaiming that they were beaten with belts when they were young and would be happy to continue the tradition, "for their children's own sake".
Would you call that slight corrective action?

Personally, I was beaten when I was brought up. From a slap in the face to having a wooden spoon nearly broken on my behind.
And no, if and when I have children I will under no circumstances use physical violence. Ever.
The experience in my own childhood traumatised me for years, it never taught me right from wrong the way a calming down followed by an explanation would have.
I don't blame my parents for it, they were very young and it was what everybody was doing back then, it was the way they themselves were raised. But it has seen me nearly reach my 40th birthday now without having children because I still don't psychologically fully trust myself and I worry I might fall into the same patterns my parents were following.

matTNT

mikom wrote: »

Did you do anything about correlation and causation in the Leaving Cert?

Yes. Honours Maths :P

However I think in a group of 30 relatively diverse people from many different backgrounds, and countries (Spain, Bahrain etc.) that the sample was fairly random.

Also the speech that followed from our teacher alluded to my point about the negatives of this type of discipline for children.

Dravokivich

Shenshen wrote: »

From reading bits of it, I'm not too sure every proponent of physically "disciplining" children agrees with you.

What I've always wondered : Where do proponents actually draw the line?
There have been posters on here proclaiming that they were beaten with belts when they were young and would be happy to continue the tradition, "for their children's own sake".
Would you call that slight corrective action?

Personally, I was beaten when I was brought up. From a slap in the face to having a wooden spoon nearly broken on my behind.
And no, if and when I have children I will under no circumstances use physical violence. Ever.
The experience in my own childhood traumatised me for years, it never taught me right from wrong the way a calming down followed by an explanation would have.
I don't blame my parents for it, they were very young and it was what everybody was doing back then, it was the way they themselves were raised. But it has seen me nearly reach my 40th birthday now without having children because I still don't psychologically fully trust myself and I worry I might fall into the same patterns my parents were following.

Was slapped along lower back/arse cheeks and only applied with enough force to be felt and shock me. Was done sparingly too. Overuse of it, devalues the corrective action.

Hoop66

Shenshen wrote: »

The experience in my own childhood traumatised me for years, it never taught me right from wrong the way a calming down followed by an explanation would have...

I think you've definitely got a point there. I was beaten as a child, the first resort from both of my parents was a clip round the ear.

I suspect that this contributed to my not being able to tell, unless someone was really obviously angry with me, that I was crossing a line. Took me years to figure it out.

50SofG

Dravokivich wrote: »

You don't seem to realise what the point of this thread is. This thread is about a slight corrective action for miss behaviour. Not a torrent of pent up violent rage dispersed upon small children for the most trivial of reasons.

my point is simple, i come from a back ground of a mother that would agrue that she only smacked, just like i hear a lot of people here saying.
she didn't and as i/we got older and stronge she punished me/us harder,
i/we were not bad kids, but that story above was me, thats what i remember, she would say now i was the one that was never smacked...

at 14 my mother beat me with a steel bar... she would still say a little smack done you no harm,
at 16 she stabbed me in the shoulder with a bread knife,
please do not tell me i mixing up the thread, i know the difference but i don't think some parent out there do... so i feel if i agree with a little punishment is ok my fear is that like my mother ... who decides what is a little and what is a lot....
i'm in my late fourties now my friend and i still will never forget the "little" smacks i got for been bold.
did they make me a better person... no... a f**ked up man who fights to do right by his family ... yes.... a man with to many secrets and darksides.... yes