Smacking yes or no

Shenshen

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Well, children are hardly responsible for wars.

I am only 29 so dont remember the "good old days" but I will say this. I certainly never treated grownups the way some kids do nowadays when I was a kid. We might ahve done "nick nacks" and laughed at them behind their backs or whatever but children have changed in the last 20 years. You see them acting the maggot in shops, trying to steal stuff, racially abusing the security guard trying to stop them. I dont know how many times I have had stuff thrown at me randomly when walking home in the evenings, from groups of 9 or 10 year olds. And I am not the only one who has experienced this. Now, nobody can say for sure if its because of no smacking (in fact I suspect a lot of these kids probably get hidings from their parents). But they definitely have changed.

Children don't start wars, no, but adults who grow up learning the physically hurting others is a way to make them do what you want them to might well do.

I'm nearly 40 and I can assure you that while I personally was never what you would call a bold child, I've known plenty of them growing up.
I've seen violent and aggressive children, and I know their parents would not be above smacking them.
I feel the best that can ever be said for physical discipline is that in some children, it does no harm. I cannot say I've ever seen it do any good in any child, however.

Ush1

OldNotWIse wrote: »

My Mam still gave my brother a clatter when he was towering over her lol

I remember one night he came home drunk and she walloped him and he just started laughing. Hilarious.

Yep, my ma used to hit me until I could catch her arms and hold them!

But ironically it's far less socially acceptable to hit someone who can actually defend themselves.

Mr Benevolent

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

If you have to resort to hitting a kid to get them to do what you want then you're not doing it right. Parents that hit kids regularly tend not to be too bright.

Disagree totally. Dispensation towards violence has little to do with intelligence. Perhaps you could argue that education might mitigate somewhat but Ive seen some pretty smart violent people who hit both kids and adults..................

Leftist

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Well, children are hardly responsible for wars.

I am only 29 so dont remember the "good old days" but I will say this. I certainly never treated grownups the way some kids do nowadays when I was a kid. We might ahve done "nick nacks" and laughed at them behind their backs or whatever but children have changed in the last 20 years. You see them acting the maggot in shops, trying to steal stuff, racially abusing the security guard trying to stop them. I dont know how many times I have had stuff thrown at me randomly when walking home in the evenings, from groups of 9 or 10 year olds. And I am not the only one who has experienced this. Now, nobody can say for sure if its because of no smacking (in fact I suspect a lot of these kids probably get hidings from their parents). But they definitely have changed.

nonce sense.

I'm not much older than you and I remember young lads doing awful stuff.

I can recall kids as young as 10 setting fire to cars, breaking into cars, breaking windows on houses. On on occassion setting fire to someone's shed.

Squiggle

If smacking works why do you have to keep repeating it? Do you smack harder if the kid doesn't learn the first time? How hard do you smack a slow learner?

wolfpawnat

Leftist wrote: »

Oh dear jesus. that would never have happened 30 years ago.

30 years ago your neighbour would drag you to your parents front door where you would be forced to apologise for even considering it. That child's mother was looking at her and said nothing. Are you condoning animal cruelty?

kunst nugget wrote: »

The line of argument that 'I've seen badly behaved kids who obviously act that way because they are not smacked' is a nonsense. If you choose to not smack your child, that doesn't you abdicate all responsibility for your child's behaviour. If a parent does that, they are not being a parent, they are being an asshole. It is still your responsibility to raise, nurture and discipline your child.

I never said it was due to a lack of a smack (though some brats could do with one) but rather a lack of discipline as a whole. Discipline does not equate solely to physical or verbal threats. If my son is bold, his scooter goes bye bye. That makes a child think twice. Are you harming them, no. If my son hurts another child, he is told to apologise and if he won't, there are consequences such as loss of privileges.

I do not use smacking to correct my child (bar the two incidents I mentioned) and he is growing up what I would consider to be okay. Some days he's a little shít, I am the first to say it, but overall he respects others, their property, animals and has manners, all because he knows negative behaviour does have consequences. I tried several techniques and methods before finding one that my son responded to, some parents clearly don't/won't make the time to do the same.

There are many ways to raise a child correctly, contrary to the beliefs of some, just as there are many ways to raise nutcases! I see mothers occasionally give their kids a smack (not a belting) on the bum or hand and I don't think anything of it, not my way of doing things, but I feel ignoring or even attempting to condone their behaviour is far worse IMO.

Leftist

wolfpawnat wrote: »

30 years ago your neighbour would drag you to your parents front door where you would be forced to apologise for even considering it. That child's mother was looking at her and said nothing. Are you condoning animal cruelty?

Yes I am condoning animal cruelty. Couldn't be more blatant. Such an outrage etc.

What a stupid question.

smiley_face400

I got the odd smack if I was being a brat and it never did me any harm. Not like hitting or abuse, didn't even hurt that much. Just a little tap on the arm as a reprimand and then up to my room for 10 minutes or so until everyone cooled off and I apologised.

OldNotWIse

kunst nugget wrote: »

I'm 35. When I was 10, I nicked stuff in shops while acting the maggot along with other kids and kids threw sh¡t at me in the streets and fought with me. I'm not condoning mine or the other kids actions but they are hardly new phenomenons. Should I think about purchasing these rose-tinted glasses everyone else seems to be wearing?

yeah...but you were 10, they were your peers. Did you throw glass bottles at adults who were walking past you minding your own business?

wolfpawnat

Leftist wrote: »

Yes I am condoning animal cruelty. Couldn't be more blatant. Such an outrage etc.

What a stupid question.

Dismissing her behaviour by saying "30 years ago" etc does not make it any better. There have been little brats throughout history. I have no doubt in the court of Henry VIII and in the temples of ancient Egypt they said "back in my day". The fact that her mother was a mere few feet away and ignoring her 9-10 year olds behaviour says more about them than anything else. An animal minding its business, be it a bird, dog, cat, horse or worm should not be harassed by anyone. Would you have said something to her?

Shenshen

OldNotWIse wrote: »

yeah...but you were 10, they were your peers. Did you throw glass bottles at adults who were walking past you minding your own business?

My brother (having been beaten the same way I had been throughout childhood) once set fir to a bit of woodland in order to "drive out some annoying adults who were having a picknick where we wanted to play".
Does that count?



Edit : That happened 30 years ago, during those "good old days".

kunst nugget

OldNotWIse wrote: »

yeah...but you were 10, they were your peers. Did you throw glass bottles at adults who were walking past you minding your own business?

I didn't but other kids did. Like I said this stuff didn't just suddenly start happening yesterday.

OldNotWIse

kunst nugget wrote: »

I didn't but other kids did. Like I said this stuff didn't just suddenly start happening yesterday.

I believe it is happening on a much larger scale now. The fact that you even remember one isolated incident shows what a big deal it was. I am sick to death seeing the little sh1ts in my local shop racially abusing the security guard who works there. Every other time you go into the place they are there.

OldNotWIse

Shenshen wrote: »

My brother (having been beaten the same way I had been throughout childhood) once set fir to a bit of woodland in order to "drive out some annoying adults who were having a picknick where we wanted to play".
Does that count?



Edit : That happened 30 years ago, during those "good old days".

Yes, one isoalted incident of course gives you the right to dismiss another person's experiences and beliefs as nonsense. Silly me.

Leftist

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Dismissing her behaviour by saying "30 years ago" etc does not make it any better. There have been little brats throughout history. I have no doubt in the court of Henry VIII and in the temples of ancient Egypt they said "back in my day". The fact that her mother was a mere few feet away and ignoring her 9-10 year olds behaviour says more about them than anything else. An animal minding its business, be it a bird, dog, cat, horse or worm should not be harassed by anyone. Would you have said something to her?

This is an individual case though. And smacking isn't the only solution. But it is the topic of this discussion.
The woman should be doing a better job of parent, no debate. Smacking them won't stop them doing it again though and her approach is not progressive parenting imo.

I was disciplined in two different ways by each parent.
A slap from my da.
Progressive parenting from my ma.

The latter involved grounding/not allowed to watch tv/not allowed pocket money.

The latter was far more effective. Kids aren't dogs.

And fwiw, there is one kid who live near my parents and he's a little scumbag. comes from a very well to do family and his father is often bellowing threats at him and others that then call to his door to complain about the kid. The da's a bellend who thinks aggression works when infact it has the opposite effect. The kid is angry, rebelling and knows he can run amok outside the home.

OldNotWIse

wolfpawnat wrote: »

30 years ago your neighbour would drag you to your parents front door where you would be forced to apologise for even considering it. That child's mother was looking at her and said nothing. Are you condoning animal cruelty?



I never said it was due to a lack of a smack (though some brats could do with one) but rather a lack of discipline as a whole. Discipline does not equate solely to physical or verbal threats. If my son is bold, his scooter goes bye bye. That makes a child think twice. Are you harming them, no. If my son hurts another child, he is told to apologise and if he won't, there are consequences such as loss of privileges.

I do not use smacking to correct my child (bar the two incidents I mentioned) and he is growing up what I would consider to be okay. Some days he's a little shít, I am the first to say it, but overall he respects others, their property, animals and has manners, all because he knows negative behaviour does have consequences. I tried several techniques and methods before finding one that my son responded to, some parents clearly don't/won't make the time to do the same.

There are many ways to raise a child correctly, contrary to the beliefs of some, just as there are many ways to raise nutcases! I see mothers occasionally give their kids a smack (not a belting) on the bum or hand and I don't think anything of it, not my way of doing things, but I feel ignoring or even attempting to condone their behaviour is far worse IMO.

Agree. I was smacked once or twice. Grew up fairly normal. Didnt start any wars. No plans to physically abuse my offspring, but dont really care how someone else disciplines their child provided they do. I think tbh the issue is not even to smack or not, its to discipline or not, and its the discipline thats lacking these days. Of course you're gonna behave worse if you know mommy will be on your side no matter what you do to others.

humbert

;):rolleyes::(:eek::cool::pac:

humbert wrote: »

If the child responds to logic and reason use logic and reason, if it doesn't wallop the little bastard.

Shenshen

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Yes, one isoalted incident of course gives you the right to dismiss another person's experiences and beliefs as nonsense. Silly me.

And your isolated experience in one shop is any different?

kunst nugget

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I never said it was due to a lack of a smack (though some brats could do with one) but rather a lack of discipline as a whole. Discipline does not equate solely to physical or verbal threats. If my son is bold, his scooter goes bye bye. That makes a child think twice. Are you harming them, no. If my son hurts another child, he is told to apologise and if he won't, there are consequences such as loss of privileges.

I do not use smacking to correct my child (bar the two incidents I mentioned) and he is growing up what I would consider to be okay. Some days he's a little shít, I am the first to say it, but overall he respects others, their property, animals and has manners, all because he knows negative behaviour does have consequences. I tried several techniques and methods before finding one that my son responded to, some parents clearly don't/won't make the time to do the same.

There are many ways to raise a child correctly, contrary to the beliefs of some, just as there are many ways to raise nutcases! I see mothers occasionally give their kids a smack (not a belting) on the bum or hand and I don't think anything of it, not my way of doing things, but I feel ignoring or even attempting to condone their behaviour is far worse IMO.

The main thrust behind of a lot of the arguments on here are 'no smacking = no discipline' so while I might have been replying to your post I was just trying to address wider points. I agree there are many ways to discipline your child and you'll find the ones that are most effective for your children but I genuinely believe that if you smack your child you've lost control of a situation and that's your fault, not the child.

I discipline my kids and I'd see myself as pretty strict, making sure they aren't taking the piss and calling them up on it if they are getting out of hand and punishing them if required. I know kids can drive you crazy but what good is it going to do my child if I, at 6 foot and 15 and a half stone, was the to strike them. It's a bullying tactic plain and simple and there are always other ways to approach it. Tbf, I'm not aiming this at but just addressing some of the points raised.

HandsomeDan

I slap the missus' arse in bed on a regular basis and she loves it.

kunst nugget

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I believe it is happening on a much larger scale now. The fact that you even remember one isolated incident shows what a big deal it was. I am sick to death seeing the little sh1ts in my local shop racially abusing the security guard who works there. Every other time you go into the place they are there.

Where did I say it was an isolated incident?

OldNotWIse

Leftist wrote: »

This is an individual case though. And smacking isn't the only solution. But it is the topic of this discussion.
The woman should be doing a better job of parent, no debate. Smacking them won't stop them doing it again though and her approach is not progressive parenting imo.

I was disciplined in two different ways by each parent.
A slap from my da.
Progressive parenting from my ma.

The latter involved grounding/not allowed to watch tv/not allowed pocket money.

The latter was far more effective. Kids aren't dogs.

And fwiw, there is one kid who live near my parents and he's a little scumbag. comes from a very well to do family and his father is often bellowing threats at him and others that then call to his door to complain about the kid. The da's a bellend who thinks aggression works when infact it has the opposite effect. The kid is angry, rebelling and knows he can run amok outside the home.

I remember my dad caught a spider in a glass when I was around 4. He asked me what we should do with it. Being angry that the spider had frightened me I said, "put him in the fire". Rather than punishing, my dad sat me down and explained how we could easily put the spider outside and not harm him, he could have a family at home waiting for him etc. He led by example. To this day I still put the spider in the glass and run outside with him, and I will not tolerate cruelty to animals, but I wasnt born like this, it was put into me. We were out with friends a while back and one of them was sitting opposite me with her 7 year old daughter. A little ant crossed her path so she squashed him. No reason, jsut squashed him cause he was there. No blowing him away or sweeping him away or ignoring him. Just squash him cause he's there. I know right, its just a fuucking ant but I thought it was showing of her mentality (or lack of). it took the same effort to kill him as it would have taken to sweep him away or ignore him.

wolfpawnat

Leftist wrote: »

This is an individual case though. And smacking isn't the only solution. But it is the topic of this discussion.
The woman should be doing a better job of parent, no debate. Smacking them won't stop them doing it again though and her approach is not progressive parenting imo.

I was disciplined in two different ways by each parent.
A slap from my da.
Progressive parenting from my ma.

The latter involved grounding/not allowed to watch tv/not allowed pocket money.

The latter was far more effective. Kids aren't dogs.

And fwiw, there is one kid who live near my parents and he's a little scumbag. comes from a very well to do family and his father is often bellowing threats at him and others that then call to his door to complain about the kid. The da's a bellend who thinks aggression works when infact it has the opposite effect. The kid is angry, rebelling and knows he can run amok outside the home.

Sure I said myself that discipline is the key, does it have to involve smacking, of course not. I don't like the threat of physical violence, for me, I always became insolent. I got really angry with my son one day and said "I will redden your arse" I froze when I saw the same insolent face I had had as a child looking back at me. I took a step back and calmed down. No bottoms were reddened.

I find it fascinating that many children from "better off" and "well to do" families are often the worst behaved. I feel perhaps it could be a lack of time to bother or just the parents trumped up notions of themselves rubbing off on their children, but either way, there are more than I would like to see.

I had no father, well once a blue moon and he never gave a crap, but a verbally abusive mother. To be honest, I preferred the smacks to the words, because the words go deeper than any slap. I had neighbours that said to their children they wish they had aborted them, no surprise the son is nigh on a psychopath that other kids avoid.

OldNotWIse

Shenshen wrote: »

And your isolated experience in one shop is any different?

Its not isolated, if you read my post I said its every other time. Look we'll be here all day playing verbal gymnsatics and firing experiences at each other. Lets just agree to disagree. I am a crank, I admit that. I hate kids. I realise there were anti social instances in the past but I believe there are far more now. You dont. Thats fine.

mikom

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I remember my dad caught a spider in a glass when I was around 4. He asked me what we should do with it. Being angry that the spider had frightened me I said, "put him in the fire". Rather than punishing, my dad sat me down and explained how we could easily put the spider outside and not harm him, he could have a family at home waiting for him etc.

Two days later the spider died of frostbite with his face pushed up against your kitchen window.

But seriously, your ould lad was a legend for teaching you that.

OldNotWIse

mikom wrote: »

Two days later the spider died of frostbite with his face pushed up against your kitchen window.

But seriously, your ould lad was a legend for teaching you that.

Ahahaaaa, probably died when he hit the concrete :rolleyes: but at least we felt good.

My brother was brought up the same, though ironically he gave a man a dig one day when he intentionally impailed a snail on a nail. Think my brother was around 14. They guy confronted my dad and when my dad was told the whole story he just said, sorry but I will not correct him for that. Snail 1- Sc*mbag 0 lol

imtdub

kunst nugget wrote: »

I have a special needs cousin who has trouble understanding logic and boundaries sometimes. Is it okay for me to smack her to keep her in line?

Are you a special needs person too? If not, There's a thing called common sense , use it :eek:

Shenshen

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Its not isolated, if you read my post I said its every other time. Look we'll be here all day playing verbal gymnsatics and firing experiences at each other. Lets just agree to disagree. I am a crank, I admit that. I hate kids. I realise there were anti social instances in the past but I believe there are far more now. You dont. Thats fine.

I do believe I'm seeing more of it, same as you.
But I remind myself that where I live now is not where I grew up, and that just because I never saw children behaving anti-socially when I was a child doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't happening. To some extend I suspect the reason why I never noticed them was because I was kept away from where and when they did happen (wasn't allowed to go to certain parts of town, had to be in the house by 6pm in summer, 5pm in winter, etc.).
So keeping this in mind, I prefer to trust figures and stats over my own memory.

Leftist

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I remember my dad caught a spider in a glass when I was around 4. He asked me what we should do with it. Being angry that the spider had frightened me I said, "put him in the fire". Rather than punishing, my dad sat me down and explained how we could easily put the spider outside and not harm him, he could have a family at home waiting for him etc. He led by example. To this day I still put the spider in the glass and run outside with him, and I will not tolerate cruelty to animals, but I wasnt born like this, it was put into me. We were out with friends a while back and one of them was sitting opposite me with her 7 year old daughter. A little ant crossed her path so she squashed him. No reason, jsut squashed him cause he was there. No blowing him away or sweeping him away or ignoring him. Just squash him cause he's there. I know right, its just a fuucking ant but I thought it was showing of her mentality (or lack of). it took the same effort to kill him as it would have taken to sweep him away or ignore him.

So your dad took the time to explain and teach you something.

Maybe it was better than slapping you after he watched you kill it?

that's the point people are trying to make in opposition to slapping.

OldNotWIse

Shenshen wrote: »

I do believe I'm seeing more of it, same as you.
But I remind myself that where I live now is not where I grew up, and that just because I never saw children behaving anti-socially when I was a child doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't happening. To some extend I suspect the reason why I never noticed them was because I was kept away from where and when they did happen (wasn't allowed to go to certain parts of town, had to be in the house by 6pm in summer, 5pm in winter, etc.).
So keeping this in mind, I prefer to trust figures and stats over my own memory.

true enough..I didnt see much antiS behaviour in my mams front garden playing dolls with the neighbours daughter.