Springbok Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Emperor1989

Bulls vs Sharks this weekend. Bismark is back in the all springbok front row.

Siya Kolisisi now ruled out for the rest of the season joining Botha and Spies aswell as Burger and Vermuelen.

Lappies is destined to get his chance now in the 4 nations if he can keep himself injury free.

Emperor1989

I also found out a great article on the equally great Juan Smith from the Free State and his rise to arguably the greatest blindside flanker that has played the game IMO.

There isn’t a better blindside on the planet,’ World Cup-winning coach Jake White barks in reply to my question. ‘I don’t understand why Juan Smith is criticised, just like I don’t understand why he hasn’t been nominated for IRB Player of the Year. Just because he’s not as flashy as some players, he sometimes goes unnoticed. For me, I can’t say enough about what he’s done for the Springboks.’

The question seemed harmless enough. ‘Would you ever consider playing Schalk Burger in the Bok back row at the expense of Juan Smith?’ The question was speculative, but hardly insulting. Heinrich Brüssow is going to be around for a while and No 8 Pierre Spies is a Peter de Villiers favourite. I asked White if Burger could ever replace Smith. White’s response wasn’t as much a response as it was a lecture. By the end, I understood.

Players exist in two different realms – the perceived and the real. Although the game may be viewed by the public from one perspective, it’s viewed by the coaches from another. TV commentators award Man of the Match accolades at the climax, accolades that may not match the ones dispensed by the men that matter. The flyhalves and wings hog the glory on our silver screen, but in the sweat and stink of the change room, the coaches and team-mates are toasting warriors far less glamorous.

‘Juan was our best forward at the 2007 World Cup,’ says White. ‘He was our most consistent player. His lineout work was excellent and his work rate phenomenal. Again, he wasn’t given enough credit, but he just continued to deliver.

‘You can see the value in the way he carries the ball. Does he ever not make it across the advantage line? That’s massively beneficial for the Boks, as it ensures they keep the opposition on the back foot.’

Smith stands at 1.96m and weighs 107kg. These stats are unimpressive considering the size of the modern-day loose forward. What animates and enhances these dimensions is a robust attitude. It’s not the meanness of an enforcer that’s earned him global respect, but the toughness of a determined and relentless foot soldier. He’ll bruise, bleed and break for that green and gold jersey. Within the laws, he’ll inflict the same amount of punishment on the opposition.

‘He’s not the type of guy to sit out of practice just because he has a cut or a niggle,’ says Barend Pieterse, former Bok team-mate and now forwards coach at the Cheetahs. ‘As a captain, he’s not the sort of guy who talks you into running through walls.

'Players see him carrying on with an injury. They think, “Why am I worried about getting hurt if this guy can carry on?” This happens week in, week out. André Venter commanded this kind of respect. Juan is certainly in the same category.

‘Because of his power and disregard for his own well-being, the opposition know they have to nullify him. When Juan is out of the lineout and in the backline, the opposition expect him to carry the ball, but that rarely stops him from crossing the advantage line.

'The fact that the opposition know when he’s about to receive the ball doesn’t make a bit of difference. He’ll gain ground every time.’

Players and management are in perpetual awe. Cheetahs assistant coach Hawies Fourie believes Smith’s invaluable physicality is down to an attitude that sets him apart.

‘He’s the tough guy who doesn’t take any nonsense from anybody.

'You see that on the field. He’s also able to play through an incredible amount of pain. We saw that in the Perth Test against Australia when he played even though he was carrying an ankle injury. Sometimes I think you’d have to shoot him dead to get him off that field. He never wants to leave, even if his own health is at stake.

‘The doctors and the coaches have learnt to trust him to make the call. In our second match in the Super 14 [against the Force], he did tell us there was something wrong and he came off with a head injury. That’s when we knew it was serious. A day later he was ruled out of the rest of the Australasian tour.’

John Smit, Bakkies Botha, Burger and Smith are the celebrated Bok bullies, capable of perpetuating South Africa’s unique brand of belligerence. This brings us back to the discussion with White and his views on a Springbok loose trio without Smith. In White’s mind, if you have players like Smith and Burger at your disposal, there’s no need to favour one over the other. Is Brüssow – the man prompting such a debate – really better than Burger or Smith? Is he a better fit for the Bok combination?

‘The reality is that Schalk Burger is the best openside in the world, and was the best at the age of 21,’ says White. ‘It’s crazy to tamper with a combination that works. You can see what a difference Schalk made when he came off the bench in the Tri-Nations. It’s also crazy to consider moving Schalk to blindside at the expense of Juan.

‘There aren’t many other options at blindside. If Juan wasn’t available, you’d have to firstly consider what loose-forward combination would work, not necessarily what individual could replace him. I would move Danie Rossouw to No 8 and play Pierre Spies at blindside. That would provide the correct balance. But with all the players available, you don’t get a better loose trio in world rugby than Schalk, Juan and Pierre.’

Burger’s blond mop adds to the perception of omnipresence, while Smith, in the uniform crew cut, goes relatively unnoticed. It’s not surprising that Smith is often the loose forward subbed in the latter stages, as he’s often asked to do the donkey work. A hard-hitting defender, a line-breaking ball-carrier and an underrated scavenger at ruck time, he’s one of the most complete forwards in the game.

When White succeeded Rudolf Straeuli in 2004, he identified Smith as a player with great potential. Smith’s shortcoming was his ball skills, but after working with Springbok visual coach Sherylle Calder, he became more than an adequate distributor. An improved peripheral vision has helped with his offloading in the tackle, or alternatively the decision to hang on and advance under his own steam.

Most critically, Smith’s improved ball handling has led to him becoming an excellent lineout option at the tail. Again, it’s been hard to shine in a Bok lineout containing world-beaters Victor Matfield and Botha. But speak to coaches like Graham Henry and Robbie Deans and they will tell you Smith is every bit as dangerous as Matfield or Botha at this set piece.

‘Some opposing teams look to keep the ball away from Victor so they throw the ball to the back, but Juan is so good at contesting. He steals a lot of opposition ball,’ notes Pieterse, who was one of the best lineout jumpers in South Africa throughout his career. ‘When Juan wins his own ball, it’s always clean. As this suggests, he does the little things brilliantly, and for that he doesn’t get enough credit.

Pierre Spies and Juan are the best loose-forward lineout jumpers in the game. Having Juan at the back gives the Boks the variety they don’t always need, but it keeps the opposition guessing and takes the pressure off guys like Victor.’

White says Smith was a key man during his tenure and has continued to flourish in the past two years.

The Bok No 7 was solid against the British & Irish Lions and never missed a beat in the recent Tri-Nations.

‘The Springboks never lose a ball at the tail of the lineout when Juan’s there, and as any coach will tell you, that’s the ideal ball for a team to win when on attack. When he’s not receiving, his strength is a great asset. He’s able to lift players like Victor to ensure they reach up and win that throw.’

Springbok fans only grew to appreciate Percy Montgomery towards the end of his career, while Smith is finally getting his due after six years of loyal service to the Boks. It’s easier to appreciate the players who finish fantastically, and harder to acknowledge those who toil to create opportunities, or indeed limit the opposition’s momentum. If every try or penalty goal has its roots in a forward effort, you have to look at the men who create the platform.

Smith will certainly be remembered as one of South Africa’s toughest and most valuable players. Venter is remembered by rugby connoisseurs as an unassuming and uncompromising flanker, a true Springbok great. The erudite will mention Venter’s name in the same breath as Tim Horan, Christian Cullen and Zinzan Brooke. They are four very different players with one common denominator – greatness. Future generations of rugby lovers will surely hold Smith in similar regard.

Swiwi.

Emperor1989 wrote: »

I also found out a great article on the equally great Juan Smith from the Free State and his rise to arguably the greatest blindside flanker that has played the game IMO.

Yeah, I always respected Juan Smith. Seems to me he retired some time ago now. I realise it was only officially in the last 12 months or so, but it must have been about 3 years since he played any regular footy. I don't really have a feeling for all time great blindsides. Smith is certainly one of the modern greats, though.

Emperor1989

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Yeah, I always respected Juan Smith. Seems to me he retired some time ago now. I realise it was only officially in the last 12 months or so, but it must have been about 3 years since he played any regular footy. I don't really have a feeling for all time great blindsides. Smith is certainly one of the modern greats, though.

He has had a bad achilles ever since the Lions and he had to retire this year....he should have retired 2 years ago but he wanted to retire on his own terms. Its a pity that it happened in a friendly against the bulls during preseason.

Emperor1989

Bulls won and The Cheetahs did also. 2 South African teams in the playoff's now.

5 weeks until the first test vs Argentina. Can't afford any more injuries at this stage now. Not sure with the situation at Fly Half actually now that Morne Steyn is off to Paris.

Emperor1989

Huge weekend for the Cheetahs now.

Also a huge day for South African rugby to show the world they can play exciting rugby.

Emperor1989

For all the hate the Bulls get they are once again back in the Final 4 with lets face it a far from legendary team.

8.5 points favorite today....I guess we will see is this Future Springbok center's up to the test today.

Swiwi.

Emperor1989 wrote: »

For all the hate the Bulls get they are once again back in the Final 4 with lets face it a far from legendary team.

8.5 points favorite today....I guess we will see is this Future Springbok center's up to the test today.

Yeah, fairplay to them. I think the Chiefs' win might take a bit of the wind out of their sails, though. Brumbies in with a shout.

Emperor1989

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Yeah, fairplay to them. I think the Chiefs' win might take a bit of the wind out of their sails, though. Brumbies in with a shout.

Brumbies I felt struggled last weekend against the Cheetahs who still have no out half.

Possibly overrated team and no Pocock!. Still tho think 8.5 points is too big a handicap.

I have it a one score game

Emperor1989

The Bulls scrum is awful...just a complete mess!

Sums up the lack of world class props in Bok sides at the moment.

Swiwi.

Lads, quick run-down on SA domestic rugby (Curry Cup, and the levels below) I'd appreciate. In particular, what Curry Cup teams make up the SA franchises (who do the Griquas play for, for example), but a general overview would be great! Cheers in advance.

matthew8

Obviously the Lions, Cheetahs, Bulls, WP and Sharks all have their own super rugby teams. Any Griquas player who plays super rugby does it with the Cheetahs, such as Willie Le Roux, Lourens Adriaanse and Ligtoring Landman. Never followed lower currie cup or vodacom cup so wouldn't know about those.

Emperor1989

Currie Cup is a domestic rugby competition of South Africa.

It is the oldest provincial rugby competition in the world and still is hugely important in South African rugby.

There is 6 team in the premier division which are basically the super rugby teams and a few more.

Bulls, Western Provence, Free State, Sharks, Lions and Griquas make up the main division.

The realsionship between teams can be very heated, and has a intense rivalry.

Emperor1989

This match tomorrow is a huge day for South African rugby which is called the Nelson Mandela Sports and culture activities day. Expect a huge display from the Boks as this team now has to start winning under Meyer. They have had there honeymoon period after De Villers.

The Springbok team to face Argentina in Soweto is:

15. Willie le Roux (GWK Griquas) 3 caps
14 Bjorn Basson (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 9 caps
13 JJ Engelbrecht (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 4 caps
12 Jean de Villiers (DHL Western Province, captain) 87 caps
11 Bryan Habana (Toulon, France) 86 caps
10 Morné Steyn (Stade Francais, France) 45 caps
9 Ruan Pienaar (Ulster, N.Ireland) 66 caps
8 Duane Vermeulen (DHL Western Province) 7 caps
7 Willem Alberts (The Sharks) 21 caps
6 Francois Louw (Bath, England) 19 caps
5 Juandré Kruger (Racing Metro, France) 11 caps
4 Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province) 14 caps
3 Jannie du Plessis (The Sharks) 45 caps
2 Adriaan Strauss (Toyota FS Cheetahs) 24 caps
1 Tendai Mtawarira (The Sharks) 44 caps
Replacements
16 Bismarck du Plessis (The Sharks) 48 caps
17 Gurthrö Steenkamp (Toulouse, France) 40 caps
18 Coenie Oosthuizen (Toyota FS Cheetahs) 4 caps
19 Flip van der Merwe (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 26 caps
20 Siya Kolisi (DHL Western Province) 2 caps
21 Fourie du Preez (Suntory Sungoliath, Japan) 62 caps
22 Pat Lambie (The Sharks) 23 caps
23 Jan Serfontein (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 3 caps


Lets start with the front row, best front row that could have been picked on form. Still Jannie is 60 mins these days but with Gurthro Steenkamp brought back in it shows the dearth of top class props which he is. Bismark coming back from injury will gets 20 mins and Coenie will get more expierence. Its they can keep those 6 players fit that is one world class front row replacing another. Thats a huge benefit now in terms of depth.

Second row, disagree with the inclusion of Kruger ahead of Flippers...still good have good depth there, I think with Peter Steph Du Toit and a few more coming through its going to be a real area of strength going forward.

Best back row, great balance with Kolisi off the bench. Alberts is key:) but Vermulen is going back off injury so its hard to know what he can bring but he is damn fine player.

Disagree with ponderous Pienaar at 9, Du Preez should always be ahead, Steyn is best fly half option.

De Villers and JJ at center are good partnership as highlighted at June but Serfontein is pure class and the next Francois Steyn that fulfills his potential. Again a few more players are coming through in this position so there is certainly more depth.

Good to see Habana and even better to see Le Roux but Basson is a nothing player at this level. Basically a South African version of Trimble but with injuries there hasn't been much choice. Lambie on the bench but he is only a full back at this level. Pity Raymond Rhule was not picked but there ya go cant have everything.

Its generally a good team but its a even better 23 man squad with serious talent to come in off the bench. The pack can even get better as the match wears on with those big athletic forward to come on.

I expect a big performance tomorrow! pity i miss it. Some one better put it on Youtube for me

.ak

I wasn't aware WLR had any caps.. When has he played for SA?

Pudsy33

.ak wrote: »

I wasn't aware WLR had any caps.. When has he played for SA?

That funny little tournament in he summer.

Emperor1989

Lets go!!!!!!!!

Hagz

I don't wanna sound like a grouch....but that is a really rubbish tribute video..

Allow me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twb37gBGehM

Emperor1989

Hagz wrote: »

I don't wanna sound like a grouch....but that is a really rubbish tribute video..

Allow me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twb37gBGehM

I disagree anything with John Smit standing on 100 cap with his kids is very stirring.

Emperor1989

If anyone has the full match found on youtube can you private message me please.

Thanks

Emperor1989

Hopefully this is just the start.

I need to read the reviews but sounds like a forward dominating display.

Can someone give me a good idea what happened? I believe the Argies fell apart. No doubt it be a much tighter affair next week.

matthew8

Tuned in after 27 minutes so I got all the tries.
Penalty try - Lots of pressure and refusing shots at goal for lineouts, a certain try if not for a deliberate slap down.
Engelbrecht - Lucky. Argies on the attack, lose possession to Le Roux who chips ahead, as usual JJ shows plenty of gas to touch down. Argentina showed very little fight from this point onward.
Strauss - Maul.
Alberts - Maul.
De Villiers - Interception.
Du Preez - Great run by Habana, next phase Du Preez picks up and falls over the line.
Habana - Some nice play by Etzebeth and Du Preez, finished by Habana.
Vermeulen - Ran onto an inside ball from Steyn, close out.
Du Plessis - Maul.

Pack monstered Argentina, especially Etzebeth who couldn't be tackled. Lineout was brilliant. De Villiers was excellent throughout. Le Roux and Habana lively. Only player I wouldn't praise is Basson. He seems like a nothing player at this level.

Despite the comfortable win NZ were quite flawed this morning so they're definitely beatable. It's a shame Meyer won't pick the players to take advantage of the breakdown weakness they displayed.

Emperor1989

matthew8 wrote: »

Tuned in after 27 minutes so I got all the tries.
Penalty try - Lots of pressure and refusing shots at goal for lineouts, a certain try if not for a deliberate slap down.
Engelbrecht - Lucky. Argies on the attack, lose possession to Le Roux who chips ahead, as usual JJ shows plenty of gas to touch down. Argentina showed very little fight from this point onward.
Strauss - Maul.
Alberts - Maul.
De Villiers - Interception.
Du Preez - Great run by Habana, next phase Du Preez picks up and falls over the line.
Habana - Some nice play by Etzebeth and Du Preez, finished by Habana.
Vermeulen - Ran onto an inside ball from Steyn, close out.
Du Plessis - Maul.

Pack monstered Argentina, especially Etzebeth who couldn't be tackled. Lineout was brilliant. De Villiers was excellent throughout. Le Roux and Habana lively. Only player I wouldn't praise is Basson. He seems like a nothing player at this level.

Despite the comfortable win NZ were quite flawed this morning so they're definitely beatable. It's a shame Meyer won't pick the players to take advantage of the breakdown weakness they displayed.

Looks like I got Basson spot on in my summary. Glad Etzebeth has a great game he truly is the best lock forward in world rugby. Had did Louw get on at the breakdown??...I thought he was superb in June and while Brussow is a fine fetcher the added bulk of Louw is a nice addition to the beefy pack.

Also had did the scrums look? anyone have a clear upper hand?

Swiwi.

Ezebeth only 21 :eek: Dang!

matthew8

Louw didn't have his best game. IIRC he wrecked a decent chance with a knock-on. Didn't notice him at the breakdown but in any case Argentina couldn't get a load of phases together for their life so the pack can't have been doing much wrong.

Scrums were steady by both for the most part, very few penalties/free kicks, but SA did win one against the head.

Emperor1989

Just got a look at the try's.

Strauss throwing was amazing...it was straight down the middle. Really helped the lineout dominate.

Du Preez looked pure class such a shame Pienaar was playing instead. Should always be first choice. Just pure class!

Buer

Think it's worth mentioning Joost van der Westhuizen. The bloke is now in advanced stages of motor neurone disease. He was diagnosed a couple of years ago and has been steadily going downhill. I assumed he was slowly worsening but it's something of a case of out of sight, out of mind.

Today, the BBC published an article and snippets of an interview with him. He is rapidly declining and it seems that he has very little time left on this earth. On the day where Eoin O'Malley has been forced to retire something like this highlights the difference between the tragic and a tragedy.

For those that are in their late twenties or older, we'll remember JVDW as the greatest scrum half most of us have ever seen play the game. The guy was an unbelievable athlete. Imagine Fourie du Preez in 2009 and make a career at that level. That was Joost. He was unbelievably brave, sharp and powerful. To see him reduced to the shell of what he once was is a pure tragedy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/23699697

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLPfLO6tJFE

RoundBox11

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Ezebeth only 21 :eek: Dang!

im looking forward to 3 or 4 years time when Iain Hendersen is the best second row in the northern hemisphere facing against Etzebeth for the boks...

Emperor1989

Buer wrote: »

Think it's worth mentioning Joost van der Westhuizen. The bloke is now in advanced stages of motor neurone disease. He was diagnosed a couple of years ago and has been steadily going downhill. I assumed he was slowly worsening but it's something of a case of out of sight, out of mind.

Today, the BBC published an article and snippets of an interview with him. He is rapidly declining and it seems that he has very little time left on this earth. On the day where Eoin O'Malley has been forced to retire something like this highlights the difference between the tragic and a tragedy.

For those that are in their late twenties or older, we'll remember JVDW as the greatest scrum half most of us have ever seen play the game. The guy was an unbelievable athlete. Imagine Fourie du Preez in 2009 and make a career at that level. That was Joost. He was unbelievably brave, sharp and powerful. To see him reduced to the shell of what he once was is a pure tragedy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/23699697

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLPfLO6tJFE

Such a shame about Joost.....

Emperor1989

Watched this many a day!