True Detective [HBO] [** Spoilers **]

Frank O. Pinion

reece289 wrote: »

It's was a fabulous series IMO. You need to stop expecting from these things and learn to be led somewhat. It's what art does. You're watching someone else's vision.

No.

I mean, thank god there was an eye witness to everything that happened. That was a close one. Case almost went unsolved.

To recap:

• There wasn't even a murder at all.
• The only crime that actually occurred is what was predicted from the second episode, as it's the exact same plot as Gone Baby Gone.
• Every intriguing thread turned out to be a red herring ("That man pretending to be my father", the corruption of their supervisor, snake farm, the dolls, satanism, connection to Season 1, Hoyt paterfamilias).
• The case is solved not by detective work, but by a guy with guns pointed at him just explaining everything. Then they just walk away.
• Julie has been living an idyllic lifestyle for the past few years, so this entire eight hour hunt for her has basically been pointless.
• Multiple extremely long scenes in a bar talking about feelings.
• No snake farm.

This entire season was a waste of time.

Frank O. Pinion

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

No.

I mean, thank god there was an eye witness to everything that happened. That was a close one. Case almost went unsolved.

To recap:

• There wasn't even a murder at all.
• The only crime that actually occurred is what was predicted from the second episode, as it's the exact same plot as Gone Baby Gone.
• Every intriguing thread turned out to be a red herring ("That man pretending to be my father", the corruption of their supervisor, snake farm, the dolls, satanism, connection to Season 1, Hoyt paterfamilias).
• The case is solved not by detective work, but by a guy with guns pointed at him just explaining everything. Then they just walk away.
• Julie has been living an idyllic lifestyle for the past few years, so this entire eight hour hunt for her has basically been pointless.
• Multiple extremely long scenes in a bar talking about feelings.
• No snake farm.

This entire season was a waste of time.

You could argue that maybe that what was the writer was going for - to take the piss out of the normal expectations people have of a police mystery.

But even then it was boring and repetitive, the characters as their relationships were one-dimensional, didn't change really and the whole thing poorly executed.

Jamiekelly

Jamiekelly wrote: »

In post #2316, before the fifth episode aired, I made a guess as to where the story was going and I was actually very close, on most things, especially regarding

the Hoyt family being involved and the "aunt" trying to kidnap Julie and killing Will in the process.

All I know is that if I, of all people, can guess what the plot twists are going to be halfway through the series then the plot wasn't actually that complicated to begin with. Which honestly makes me think that they wrote it in non-chronological order for that reason and added the dimentia angle to make sense of it. Needless to say the ending was actually very disappointing because of it. Also they never found out that

the father was killed and didn't commit suicide. So there was a massive writing plothole that was very tragic. The father spent all those years not knowing what really happened, sorted his life out, then gets killed by someone clearly connected to Hoyt and they never bother to address it. The writers just used it as an episode cliffhanger that went no where and the killer and Hoyt go free.

Making the happy-ish ending a little stupid.

The only positive I can see from the whole series is Dorff getting the credit he deserves as an actor. He'll definitely get more roles because of this show and he clearly deserves more recognition.

I'm surprised you need to be told this given how spot on your prediction was. The father was definitely murdered. Last we saw of him was getting jumped in the pink room.

Gimme A Pound

I thought it was so sad when West said "What about us?" in 1980 when Hays boxed up his things to move to the typing pool instead of signing that document and remaining West's partner.

West was such a lonely guy, which was strange for a man who seemed like the type who was good craic, down to earth, friendly, seemingly well adjusted. I wasn't the only one who thought he might be in the closet and harbouring feelings for Tom Purcell (who was on the show rumoured to be in the closet). I thought they might even have had a clandestine relationship. But then again maybe West just wanted a friend - and clung to Hays's and Purcell's presence in his life as the closest he could get to friendship.

Awful shame this guy's story wasn't explored more instead of Wayne and Amelia Hays arguing the same things over and over.

Zero-Cool

I liked the ending, the girl is living a happy normal life, Purple got to spend a few peaceful moments with her (even if he didn't know), and it just brought a sense of closure to it for me. Poor Hayes having to deal with that shyte but he ended up surrounded by family and his best friend. Not the best season of TV by a long shot but it was a grand watch.

Did I miss what happened the dads suicide, did the security guy mention it at all before the guys killed him or did it end with every one thinking it was actually suicide?

It actually occurred to me that this would have actually worked as a feature length movie as opposed to an 8 hour season.

if all the repetition and filler were cut out it could have been decent and worked as a single viewing.

errlloyd

Otto Kind Lawyer wrote: »

I thought it was so sad when West said "What about us?" in 1980 when Hays boxed up his things to move to the typing pool instead of signing that document and remaining West's partner.

Someone on reddit pointed out that Hayes said "We'll grab a beer or go to a game"

25 years later in 2015 old West says "We never grabbed a beer, we never went to a game"

My brief plot synopsis and why I liked it.

There are some things I find unsatisfying about the ending, mostly around Tom. Wayne never finds out Tom was murdered, he seems to forget he ever cared about the typed note. As viewers we get the satisfaction of knowing that Tom was indirectly avenged by the way they killed Harris, and that Tom would probably be satisfied with the way his daughter grows up in the end. But Wayne and West never get that.

I also think the whole series was a missed opportunity to explore West. Dorff knocked it out of the park, whereas as Ali sort of became kind of samey after a while? We see snapshots of West and suspect there might be more to his life, but ultimately he doesn't develop.

The lack of conspiracy is sort of satisfying in some ways. I think the series is about how power can cause things to spiral. Hoyt was genuine in wanting the best for his children, and while adopting someone else's daughter to be your daughter's play thing is pretty ****ed up, there is an innocence to how it all started. From that point onwards you have an unfortunate event that leads to a succession of coverups. The shootout with Woodward was a defense against a hate crime that served as opportunism for Wallis to pin it on him. The DA who was seeking an election had a nice easy out to blame someone unpopular and get a conviction. There doesn't need to be a conspiracy for him to want that case to go away, there are plenty of incentives without a conspiracy.

Lucy attempts to extort Hoyt for more money and Wallis is sent to kill her. Dan O Brien sees that extorting Hoyt is dangerous so he tries to sell the information to the detectives - we assume that Wallis eventually catches up with him too. Tom gets what he needs from Dan but ends up too close and Wallis has to kill him too. All Hoyt is really doing at this stage is protecting his family.

When Hoyt and Ali are talking on the cliff top and Hoyt says that if Ali stops looking for her, he will. He was genuine. He figured she was in a better place now and he didn't want to look for her. If she remained unfound his family would be fine - she would be fine etc. If she became found all the wounds would reopen. And I guess Hoyt was correct. Ali stopped looking, the case was dropped and effectively everyone (who was living) lived happily ever after. Except Junius he appears to live in guilt for the rest of his life.

errlloyd

glasso wrote: »

It actually occurred to me that this would have actually worked as a feature length movie as opposed to an 8 hour season.

if all the repetition and filler were cut out it could have been decent and worked as a single viewing.

Edit: My post sort of spoilers another movie. There is a very similar feature length film already. It's not identical, but if you enjoyed TD you could watch it. I'll stick it in spoiler tags.

Gone Baby Gone

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

Edit: My post sort of spoilers another movie. There is a very similar feature length film already. It's not identical, but if you enjoyed TD you could watch it. I'll stick it in spoiler tags.

Gone Baby Gone

Thanks. Have seen that yes.
Pretty well reviewed at the time.
Didn't care for this season and that movie is a good example of how these characters and story could have worked better in a movie format.

There wasn't enough done here with the characters to warrant 8 hours plus.

sk8erboii

Season 3 is not made for the masses. Its an artistic vision that is not shared for everyone. That is why precisely i love it. S3 for me is a solid 10/10 along with season 1.

Its telling when the masses complain of a piece of media being ‘boring’ and not comprehending the cleverness and art behind the work.

Im glad the vast majority wont like this season, especially the ending


https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-reviews/true-detective-season-3-finale-review-this-was-the-best-true-detective-yet-and-the-first-to-merit-a-complete-rewatch-37855549.html

I'm beginning to think you're a troll

Nerdlingr

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm beginning to think you're a troll

And one who's been red carded already yet still continues to post??

frag420

sk8erboii wrote: »

Season 3 is not made for the masses. Its an artistic vision that is not shared for everyone. That is why precisely i love it. S3 for me is a solid 10/10 along with season 1.

Its telling when the masses complain of a piece of media being ‘boring’ and not comprehending the cleverness and art behind the work.

Im glad the vast majority wont like this season, especially the ending


https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-reviews/true-detective-season-3-finale-review-this-was-the-best-true-detective-yet-and-the-first-to-merit-a-complete-rewatch-37855549.html

Of course it was made for the masses, what are you smoking?

And stop with your art school nonsense, it fools nobody!

Its an artistic vision that is not shared for everyone

Its telling when the masses complain of a piece of media being ‘boring’ and not comprehending the cleverness and art behind the work.

Oh please enlighten us oh wise on who sounds like they studied arts and thinks only they can understand "stuff"!!

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm beginning to think you're a troll

obviously a serial troll - banned before as account from dec 2018 and back for more.

Nerdlingr

I wouldn't rise to it frag420... i mean, they even linked and independant.ie 'review' of the episode!! Ya cant argue with that!!

Saw that review earlier. Its not even a review. Its a synopsis.

Gimme A Pound

Nerdlingr wrote: »

And one who's been red carded already yet still continues to post??

If they were right-wing they'd have been nuked long ago. It's unreal the trolling and insults they get away with.

Slydice

Just finished. I thought this season was decent overall. Based on the 3 so far, it feels like they will do different types of stories in different seasons. They might link them up or not but what they want is to tell detective stories (or make money knowing hollywood ).

The ending felt unusual, not quite an explosive relief of tension but a relief of a kind.. like it didn't leave you hanging overall.

I'm not sure why but I was holding out for some redemption for the wife but it didn't play out that way. It didn't even look like she was in debt. She just took the money.

Given what I was thinking around 4, I guess other shows with detective stories made spotting parts of the story a little easier.

Slydice wrote: »

4: I kinda wanted to see what was gonna happen there. Although, I imagine it'll just be everyone staring dumbfounded. Maybe there'll be a gunfight.

Given racism is a theme in this season, I'd say the native american might be the one to get done. He's going away for killing this guy with a claymore anyway. Either that or the kid.. but the kid is looking unlikely.

As for who did it, the mother and her cousin dying like they did raises their suspicion for me. She died in Vegas and he was found murdered from what I can tell. Was there some debt he was in and forced her to help out with? Did he take advantage of the family? But then, who killed the boy? Was it a cover up by the mayor guy?

Finally, that closing scene with Mahershala Ali in the jungle.. yeah maybe it's time for him to soldier up for a film. A two time oscar winner now.

sk8erboii

I genuinely love the series and its telling when you have a different opinion and people shoehorn american politics into it.

The series is great. I think so. Objectively from a mechanical and stagecraft perspective its absolutely phenomenal.

Stephen dorff - 10/10 actor

Galwayguy35

I liked the series and was expecting the finale to have a few twists and surprises but for me last nights episode was a bit of a let down.

Eod100

sk8erboii wrote: »

I genuinely love the series and its telling when you have a different opinion and people shoehorn american politics into it.

The series is great. I think so. Objectively from a mechanical and stagecraft perspective its absolutely phenomenal.

Stephen dorff - 10/10 actor

Grand and you're entitled to that opinion but why play the man and not the ball when others take a different view?

Talisman

For me this series was not about the detective story but the journey that Wayne Hays was on while losing his grip on reality and how he eventually found peace. The character had a personality type that needed to solve the case and he eventually did but that isn't what brought him closure - having his family around him and his old friend back in his life brought him the peace he needed.

The third series had a very slow burning nature, it wasn't as gripping as the first nor was it as disjointed as the second. In that context it will be seen as a failure by some and good but not great by others.

People judging the series based upon the ending alone is a pity - a story should be about the journey it takes you on not the destination.

Nerdlingr

In the end none of the "clues" they found or any secondary stuff ever really mattered.
The notes, the peephole, the uncle, the vw guys, will returning to devils den, his position of praying, the straw dolls, the church, the priest, the schoolbag, Hoyt was just an afterthought in the end, the abandoned house where they left the pink room intact, framing the indian for the murder, "that man is not my father",the DA, the AG, the fact the town disintegrated after the killing..... because in the end it all boiled down to the one eyed man revealing himself at a book launch, spilling the beans in ten minutes and a book falling conveniently open on a page where Hays has a moment of "what if" from his dead wife. It built up the suspense and tension for seven episodes then just sh@t all over it.

Nerdlingr

Nerdlingr wrote: »

In the end none of the "clues" they found or any secondary stuff ever really mattered.
The notes, the peephole, the uncle, the vw guys, will returning to devils den, his position of praying, the straw dolls, the church, the priest, the schoolbag, Hoyt was just an afterthought in the end, the abandoned house where they left the pink room intact, framing the indian for the murder, "that man is not my father",the DA, the AG, the fact the town disintegrated after the killing..... because in the end it all boiled down to the one eyed man revealing himself at a book launch, spilling the beans in ten minutes and a book falling conveniently open on a page where Hays has a moment of "what if" from his dead wife. It built up the suspense and tension for seven episodes then just sh@t all over it.

These criticisms are consistent with season 1. Nic Pizzolatto is a fan of red herrings. We're following the investigation of the detectives, not just how the murder occurred. A big part of that is how they got it wrong over and over. I mean... its a huge theme in this season in particular! He's the opposite of Vince Gilligan where he ties in everything at some stage.

Talisman

Nerdlingr wrote: »

In the end none of the "clues" they found or any secondary stuff ever really mattered.
The notes, the peephole, the uncle, the vw guys, will returning to devils den, his position of praying, the straw dolls, the church, the priest, the schoolbag, Hoyt was just an afterthought in the end, the abandoned house where they left the pink room intact, framing the indian for the murder, "that man is not my father",the DA, the AG, the fact the town disintegrated after the killing..... because in the end it all boiled down to the one eyed man revealing himself at a book launch, spilling the beans in ten minutes and a book falling conveniently open on a page where Hays has a moment of "what if" from his dead wife. It built up the suspense and tension for seven episodes then just sh@t all over it.

Hays and West knew about the one eyed man in 1980 but they had the case closed on them because it was convenient for the politicians. You might find that unbelievable but it is reflective of how cases were 'solved' in that era, not just in the U.S. but also closer to home. Hays committed career suicide over the matter.

In 1990, they were determined to get it right and they almost did but circumstances conspired against them. Had Harris James not disappeared the case could have been solved - as West said at the time, they f*cked themselves. Hoyt had Hays by the balls so the case was never going to be solved.

The 2015 story arc was focused on the documentary producer driving the conspiracy theory agenda. There was no satanic/paedophile ring/political conspiracy preventing the case from being solved for years. It just required Junius Watts to have the courage to speak which he never did until the retired detectives showed up at his door.

Hays never read his wife's book about the case - that was a convenient plot point but equally believable seeing as the original case destroyed his career. The fact that Hays solved the case due to reading that particular page is a 'happy coincidence'. The Hollywood ending would have been for the documentary maker to have uncovered something that led West and Hays to solving the case together.

Nerdlingr

That's all fair enough, i get all those points... but we're fed all these little bits of info to peak our interest and keep us watching from week to week. Coming up with ideas and theories about what may or may not have happened. Yet, when it comes down to it... none of it matters really, because practically everything, investigation-wise, in the first few episodes is a red herring. Its the same as "Lost" in that regard. Lets feed the masses something to appeal to their inquisitive nature but lets actually discount the majority of it by conveniently having amateur plot devices to finish and tie up the season. As much as i enjoyed the first 7 episodes the last one just ruined it for me.
In the end, if its a character study on hays and his relationships, and not so much an investigation series, then there's only so much you can watch of the same two people having variations of the same argument over and over again.

errlloyd

Nerdlingr wrote: »

That's all fair enough, i get all those points... but we're fed all these little bits of info to peak our interest and keep us watching from week to week. Coming up with ideas and theories about what may or may not have happened. Yet, when it comes down to it... none of it matters really, because practically everything, investigation-wise, in the first few episodes is a red herring.

A lot of the things you said in your first post were red herrings weren't.

The Uncle did turn out to be in on it. After Lucy was killed he had the information which tempted the detectives and led to Tom being murdered. He was never a suspect, but he did advance the plot. He was subsequently murdered. It wasn't like he was a guy who lived in their house and disappeared.

The notes were not a significant part of evidence, but the discovery of the notes was important because it proved the peephole was a red herring and therefore the uncle wasn't as much of a suspect. That gave his witness statement some extra legitimacy.

The VW guys didn't end up us as suspects, but they did help to put more suspicion on Woodward which helped Harris use him as the scapegoat after he was attacked. The boy asking them where his sister was, WAS a red Herring.

The Straw Dolls originally led Hayes to the woman who said it was a one eyed black man, which is what made the outburst by the one eyed blackman at the book launch interesting, which is what broke the case in the end.

It's not like this stuff was pointless. Almost everything served a plot device more than just tricking the viewer.

mrcheez

Nerdlingr wrote: »

In the end none of the "clues" they found or any secondary stuff ever really mattered.
The notes, the peephole, the uncle, the vw guys, will returning to devils den, his position of praying, the straw dolls, the church, the priest, the schoolbag, Hoyt was just an afterthought in the end, the abandoned house where they left the pink room intact, framing the indian for the murder, "that man is not my father",the DA, the AG, the fact the town disintegrated after the killing..... because in the end it all boiled down to the one eyed man revealing himself at a book launch, spilling the beans in ten minutes and a book falling conveniently open on a page where Hays has a moment of "what if" from his dead wife. It built up the suspense and tension for seven episodes then just sh@t all over it.

aye, sums up how I felt about it.

It was like they thought "oh crap we need to wrap this up in one episode, better just make up something quick"

Season 1 this ain't, but the acting was superb so that brings it up to 2nd best of the 3 seasons.

Any idea what the final Vietnam scene was supposed to indicate? Was it supposed to represent Hays' mind lost in the jungle?

errlloyd

mrcheez wrote: »

Any idea what the final Vietnam scene was supposed to indicate? Was it supposed to represent Hays' mind lost in the jungle?

The very first article I read after the fact suggested that that scene represents the fact that Hayes died in Vietnam and the whole thing was a dream.

It's complete horse****, but enjoy,

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/02/true-detective-season-3-finale-what-happened-to-amelia-was-wayne-dead-the-whole-time

Nerdlingr

errlloyd wrote: »

A lot of the things you said in your first post were red herrings weren't.

....

It's not like this stuff was pointless. Almost everything served a plot device more than just tricking the viewer.

I didn't say they were red herrings in my first post. I said a lot of the stuff never really mattered in the end cos it was so conveniently tied up in a bow. Just an observation about how the series promised much but ultimatley for me delivered very little.

The owner of the biggest corporation/employer in the area has a black one eyed man working as a butler/chauffeur for him and no one spots this in 35 years?

The bag is planted by Harris and it takes Hays ten years to realise this?

The town was referenced as being destroyed by the disappearance, schools close, homes get over grown, basically becomes a ghost town...for what reason ??

Hoyt's estate - everyone just ups and leaves. Leaves everything behind in the pink room as it was in the 80s.

Book conveniently falling and opening on specific pages.

There's a lot of stuff that jars with me the more I think about it. I did enjoy the first 7 episodes, great performances by Ali, Dorff...and McNairy!...but nahhh, everything is too convenient in the end for me.