Hurling Championship 2013

Rightwing

Martin567 wrote: »

I disagree. Kilkenny's path appeared easier because they were so strong and made it look easy.

I think it was 2008 (I could be wrong about that) that Waterford played both Offaly & Wexford in the qualifiers and narrowly won. Kilkenny had earlier played the same two counties and won easily. Pundits then spoke about how Kilkenny had had a much easier run than Waterford and ignored the fact that they had almost had the same run. It was Kilkenny's strength that made the path appear easier.

Look at the performances of Offaly & Wexford in the qualifiers from about 2003 to 2008 and you will see that Clare, Limerick & Tipp were an awful lot closer in quality to them than any of those teams were to Kilkenny.

Ah no. wex and offaly have been absolute muck for about 10 years if not more. Teams took them for granted, like clare the last day v Wex.

When did Wex/Offaly get to a semi last? they are usually the first names gone.

.skid

Mountainlad wrote: »

What I noticed yesterday, is bulk seems to be a substitute for pace with them.

I can't remember where but I remember somebody talking about Dublin that way too, they said last year they focused way too much on the weights and physical aspect but got nowhere with it because they couldn't hurl. This year it's meant to have changed and we can see from the results the difference

Realt Dearg Sec

Rightwing wrote: »

Absolutely not. KK's draw has become a whole lot harder since Galway went into Leinster. They can't time their peak to perfection anymore.

They've only beaten us once and we won the all Ireland that year so not sure what your point is.

Rightwing

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

They've only beaten us once and we won the all Ireland that year so not sure what your point is.

Welcome to tougher draws = fewer all irelands.

adrian522

The reason kilkenny lost to Galway last year and Dublin this year is that they are not as good as they used to be. Your point is redundant given Kilkenny haven't even played Galway this year.

Rightwing

adrian522 wrote: »

The reason kilkenny lost to Galway last year and Dublin this year is that they are not as good as they used to be. Your point is redundant given Kilkenny haven't even played Galway this year.

You have half it right.

The other half is Galway & Dub are making it hard for KK to win even in Leinster, that wasn't the case before.

niallo27

Hurling is getting so fast these days that it's impossible for one man to try ref 30 players. There are too many mistakes been made. I thought Kilkenny were hard done by in the last 2 games. They got nothing against Waterford but it was forgotten because they won. Would two refs be too much to manage.

Martin567

Rightwing wrote: »

Ah no. wex and offaly have been absolute muck for about 10 years if not more. Teams took them for granted, like clare the last day v Wex.

When did Wex/Offaly get to a semi last? they are usually the first names gone.

Wexford beat Tipp in 2007. Offaly beat Limerick not long before that. Offaly lost by a point away to Cork in 2011. Both Wexford and Offaly have always been competitive in the qualifiers. If any of Clare, Limerick & Tipp had swapped provinces with Offaly & Wexford from 2003 to 2008, it would have made no difference whatever to anything. Perhaps Kilkenny's average winning margin would have been 10 instead of 14 but nothing significant.

Kilkenny are no longer quite as good as they were. That's the main reason their route has become more difficult.

slegs

Martin567 wrote: »

Wexford beat Tipp in 2007. Offaly beat Limerick not long before that. Offaly lost by a point away to Cork in 2011. Both Wexford and Offaly have always been competitive in the qualifiers. If any of Clare, Limerick & Tipp had swapped provinces with Offaly & Wexford from 2003 to 2008, it would have made no difference whatever to anything. Perhaps Kilkenny's average winning margin would have been 10 instead of 14 but nothing significant.

Kilkenny are no longer quite as good as they where. That's the main reason their route has become more difficult.

Offaly beat Limerick well in 2008 also in Gaelic Grounds...I was there

Also beat us in 2010 but that was the strike year.

Would agree that Limerick and Clare were closer to Offaly and Wexford than to Tipp/KK and GY up to this year.

I think both Limerick and Clare have been improving steadily in the last 3 years though as can be seen from schools and Minor/U-21 success in both counties.

Both teams are very young and could be very strong for next 5-10 years if progression continues.

Waterford also have been very strong at underage but dont seem to blooding as many into senior as Clare/Limerick and Cork.

Limericks best hurlers at the moment are all U-23

Rightwing

Martin567 wrote: »

Wexford beat Tipp in 2007. Offaly beat Limerick not long before that. Offaly lost by a point away to Cork in 2011. Both Wexford and Offaly have always been competitive in the qualifiers. If any of Clare, Limerick & Tipp had swapped provinces with Offaly & Wexford from 2003 to 2008, it would have made no difference whatever to anything. Perhaps Kilkenny's average winning margin would have been 10 instead of 14 but nothing significant.

Kilkenny are no longer quite as good as they where. That's the main reason their route has become more difficult.

Although KK are not as good this year, if Dublin were still weak, and Galway not in Leinster, KK would basically have walked Leinster like so many times in the past.

They'd now be in a semi-final, and KK in Croke park would be more than a match for Clare or whoever they'd meet.

Rightwing

slegs wrote: »

Offaly beat Limerick well in 2008 also in Gaelic Grounds...I was there

Also beat us in 2010 but that was the strike year.

Would agree that Limerick and Clare were closer to Offaly and Wexford than to Tipp/KK and GY up to this year.

I think both Limerick and Clare have been improving steadily in the last 3 years though as can be seen from schools and Minor/U-21 success in both counties.

Both teams are very young and could be very strong for next 5-10 years if progression continues.

Waterford also have been very strong at underage but dont seem to blooding as many into senior as Clare/Limerick and Cork.

Limericks best hurlers at the moment are all U-23

I'm not so sure. We have to up it massively to have a chance v Clare. I thought we were very lucky V Cork.
DOG is 34 I think, R McCarthy 25, Hickey, we have a good balance of youth and experience.

albert kidd

Martin567 wrote: »

Wexford beat Tipp in 2007. Offaly beat Limerick not long before that. Offaly lost by a point away to Cork in 2011. Both Wexford and Offaly have always been competitive in the qualifiers. If any of Clare, Limerick & Tipp had swapped provinces with Offaly & Wexford from 2003 to 2008, it would have made no difference whatever to anything. Perhaps Kilkenny's average winning margin would have been 10 instead of 14 but nothing significant.

Kilkenny are no longer quite as good as they where. That's the main reason their route has become more difficult.

for me thats it in a nutshell.

once a team shows signs of weakness the others will smell it and will have the belief they can have a right good skelp off them.the last few few years if kk were spluttering during games you just knew there was more in the tank and they would go up a few gears and tear teams apart (other teams knew that aswell)..teams probably underneath it all never had the true belief they could beat them,but maybe give them a game and not get totally destroyed.

Rightwing

albert kidd wrote: »

for me thats it in a nutshell.

once a team shows signs of weakness the others will smell it and will have the belief they can have a right good skelp off them.the last few few years if kk were spluttering during games you just knew there was more in the tank and they would go up a few gears and tear teams apart (other teams knew that aswell)..teams probably underneath it all never had the true belief they could beat them,but maybe give them a game and not get totally destroyed.

There's no question about that. JBM said he knew they were 'vulnerable'. And to use your wording, they had a 'right good skelp' off them.

shockframe

Rightwing wrote: »

The path has become harder, and more hurdles to clear. I'm not doubting that KK were the best team in the country over the last number of years, but they had an easier path. Teams like Waterford were nearly spent by the semi final stage.

And to be fair, it's not just galway, Dublin getting stronger has made it more competitive too.

There are several factors as to why kilkenny dominated the sport since 2000.

1) The rise in their standards after a bleak period in the 1990s.

2) Catching up with the counties who were successful in the mid-to late 90s.

3) The overall decline of standards in other counties.Kilkenny were the only team at the highest level which were not caught in any bickering.Not their fault but it helped.

4) Playing as a team and evolving the game with an extraordinary workrate and tactical awareness that eclipsed their rivals.

5) Underage success along with a high standard in colleges.

6) The standard in leinster being a wasteland. Again not their problem but codys first championship game in 1999 signalled the end of laois after a destruction like no other.

7) A superb management.

Some dubious refereeing too obviously!

People may point to the absense of gaelic football but that is a poor excuse. They only won 2 all irelands between 1984-1999 when there was less demands on dual players and less players focusing on one sport. There are players in 'dual counties' that have as little interest in football as kilkenny do.

The trouble for kilkenny now is that almost every other county has now followed their template so its going to be very hard to repeat that success again.

Clare, Limerick and Waterford for example have all enjoyed their best run at underage for sometime (maybe ever) and have a good structure at colleges level.Cork are not in a great state underage but if they get their act together they could dominate the game like kilkenny did. Dublin are here to stay and Tipp for all their faults will always be contenders.

A hurling revival has been on the cards for the last 5 years.Kilkenny wont go 10 years without an all ireland but they may be limited to 1 to 3 per decade still as they are never far away at underage. The other counties are as professional now as they have ever been.

Rightwing

shockframe wrote: »

There are several factors as to why kilkenny dominated the sport since 2000.

1) The rise in their standards after a bleak period in the 1990s.

2) Catching up with the counties who were successful in the mid-to late 90s.

3) The overall decline of standards in other counties.Kilkenny were the only team at the highest level which were not caught in any bickering.Not their fault but it helped.

4) Playing as a team and evolving the game with an extraordinary workrate and tactical awareness that eclipsed their rivals.

5) Underage success along with a high standard in colleges.

6) The standard in leinster being a wasteland. Again not their problem but codys first championship game in 1999 signalled the end of laois after a destruction like no other.

7) A superb management.

Some dubious refereeing too obviously!

People may point to the absense of gaelic football but that is a poor excuse. They only won 2 all irelands between 1984-1999 when there was less demands on dual players and less players focusing on one sport. There are players in 'dual counties' that have as little interest in football as kilkenny do.

The trouble for kilkenny now is that almost every other county has now followed their template so its going to be very hard to repeat that success again.

Clare, Limerick and Waterford for example have all enjoyed their best run at underage for sometime (maybe ever) and have a good structure at colleges level.Cork are not in a great state underage but if they get their act together they could dominate the game like kilkenny did. Dublin are here to stay and Tipp for all their faults will always be contenders.

A hurling revival has been on the cards for the last 5 years.Kilkenny wont go 10 years without an all ireland but they may be limited to 1 to 3 per decade still as they are never far away at underage. The other counties are as professional now as they have ever been.

Indeed, now that's a very good post. Which ones would you think were the most important in your list?

Tombo2001

Rightwing wrote: »

This year the tough draw nailed them. Last year, they required a replay. It's bad news for KK that Galway are in leinster, no question about that.

I think that's being unfair to Dublin....

Dublin nailed them.

I don't think Galway would have beaten KK this year, and Dublin beat Galway well.

I don't get the point about the tougher draw. Kilkenny beat Offaly in the first round and then lost to Dublin. If you mean getting Dublin is a tough draw then fair enough.

But that didn't apply last year?

Dublin have improved a lot, and Kilkenny have gone back (for all the statistics being rattled out yesterday, probably the most significant is that Kilkenny scored only 2 goals in the 6 championship games they played this year).

Yes its true that Galway being in Leinster makes it tougher for Kilkenny.......but that's not the reason they are out of the championship.

Rightwing

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think that's being unfair to Dublin....

Dublin nailed them.

I don't think Galway would have beaten KK this year, and Dublin beat Galway well.

I don't get the point about the tougher draw. Kilkenny beat Offaly in the first round and then lost to Dublin. If you mean getting Dublin is a tough draw then fair enough.

But that didn't apply last year?

Dublin have improved a lot, and Kilkenny have gone back (for all the statistics being rattled out yesterday, probably the most significant is that Kilkenny scored only 2 goals in the 6 championship games they played this year).

Yes its true that Galway being in Leinster makes it tougher for Kilkenny.......but that's not the reason they are out of the championship.

Absolutely.

Dublin have really added to the Leinster championship & long may it continue. Let's hope Wex & Offaly get up there too.

adrian522

So when Kilkenny got Dublin last year and hammered them it was an easy draw, when they got Dublin this year and lost after a replay it was a tougher draw. Got ya, that makes loads of sense.

Rightwing

adrian522 wrote: »

So when Kilkenny got Dublin last year and hammered them it was an easy draw, when they got Dublin this year and lost after a replay it was a tougher draw. Got ya, that makes loads of sense.

The days of KK calling Dublin an 'easy draw' are over.

Fireball07

The reason Kilkenny are out is that they were just not as good this year as they were in previous seasons... injuries to key players like Fennelly and Shefflin certainly didn't help, and Dublin's performance in the Championship this year was hugely improved too.

But KK were lucky to get over Waterford, and were run hard by Offaly too. It's got nothing to do with a tough draw really, they just aren't as good. KK of 2011 would have beaten Dublin the first day, and beaten Cork too.

Annuv

Rightwing wrote: »

adrian522 wrote:

So when Kilkenny got Dublin last year and hammered them it was an easy draw, when they got Dublin this year and lost after a replay it was a tougher draw. Got ya, that makes loads of sense.

The days of KK calling Dublin an 'easy draw' are over.

You obviously didn't understand the post you quoted

marco_polo

Hard to call both semis, although for me Dublin have still been the most impressive team this year and I think they will just edge out Cork.

I think Limerick are a year ahead of us in terms of where they are at, and deserve to be slight favourites for that game. Still if we can improve even more on the Galway performance we should have a real chance.

All I know for sure is I won't be betting a single cent on any of the remaining games.

Pudders

There are 3 reasons KK dominated for so long. Henry, JJ and Tommy all on the one team with some fabulous supporting players such as Eoin, Mick, Brian and many others.

Martin567

adrian522 wrote: »

So when Kilkenny got Dublin last year and hammered them it was an easy draw, when they got Dublin this year and lost after a replay it was a tougher draw. Got ya, that makes loads of sense.

It makes loads of sense if you get into the way of thinking of a section of Munster hurling people over the past decade:

If Kilkenny have a big win over Wexford/Offaly, it's because Wexford/Offaly are so terrible;
If a Munster team then loses to or narrowly defeats Wexford/Offaly, they were just complacent;
Assuming they narrowly won, this narrow win will later be taken as evidence of the hard run and difficult route they had to take compared to Kilkenny's easy route.

This line of discussion started because one person claimed that Kilkenny would not have won as many All Irelands under Brian Cody if they had to play in the Munster Championship. He has yet to say which years they would not have won. Galway have been in Leinster since 2009. Offaly were better than most Munster teams back in 1999-2000. That only leaves Kilkenny's wins in 2002-03 and 2006-08. In this period, Kilkenny defeated every Munster team at least twice and the average margin of victory was fairly substantial. If Clare/Limerick/Tipp had been forced to play Kilkenny every year like Wexford & Offaly, several hidings would have been handed out and those counties would have been equally demoralised. The qualifier results in this period indicate that Wexford & Offaly were more than able to compete against these teams. Kilkenny's route would only have been marginally more difficult and nothing would have changed.

Mountainlad

3 Munster teams in the last 4, and Dublin only in it by default! Hon Munster :pac:

Dublin marginal favourites to win it for me all the same :P

Tinie

Indeed. Exciting times ahead in the coming years for hurling.

CyberWaste

shockframe wrote: »

Again not their problem but codys first championship game in 1999 signalled the end of laois after a destruction like no other.

What was the score in that if you can remember.

mickmackey1

This point has probably already been mentioned, but the last 4 consists of two teams from Division 1B and two others who were in the relegation playoff from 1A; in the event of a Limerick-Cork final neither team will be in the top division next season! And all following what is generally considered the most competitive league campaign of recent years

Fireball07

CyberWaste wrote: »

What was the score in that if you can remember.

I remember it was a big hammering, but I don't think it was as big as Tipp's margin over Limerick in 2009, or Limerick's over Antrim last year, or Cork's 10-goal exploits a few years ago.

mickmackey1 wrote: »

This point has probably already been mentioned, but the last 4 consists of two teams from Division 1B and two others who were in the relegation playoff from 1A; in the event of a Limerick-Cork final neither team will be in the top division next season! And all following what is generally considered the most competitive league campaign of recent years

I think it's a good reason to keep the format for next year tbh.

CyberWaste

CyberWaste wrote: »

What was the score in that if you can remember.

6-21 - 1-14

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_All-Ireland_Senior_Hurling_Championship#Leinster_Senior_Hurling_Championship