Mattie Mcgrath accuses Shatter of being stopped by Gardai

Busted Flat.

mikehammer67 wrote: »

DE MA LPT ??

Ye.

mikehammer67

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Ye.

say what

Busted Flat.

mikehammer67 wrote: »

say what

Ye,as in what the foo? DE MA LPT.

Phoebas

mikehammer67 wrote: »

DE MA LPT ??

Dail Eireann.
Maryanne84.
Local Property Tax

_Kaiser_

I find it hilarious that several people here are still debating constitutional rights, did he use his status as a TD to "get out of" giving a sample, did FF put Mattie up to it, instead of focusing on the REAL issues - namely the release of supposedly confidential data into the public domain for political point-scoring AND the apparent practise of the Gardai of keeping "unofficial" files on public figures for just such an occasion!

THOSE are the real 2 issues here, not this ridiculous "will he or won't he" (resign) game. We already know he won't resign - no more than Reilly did, Hogan, Enda, Cowen, Bertie etc etc

It's also very obvious (to me at least) that given the questionable ethics and professionalism of the Gardai (which again is nothing new - this is merely the latest scandal and won't be the last) that whatever report is needed to back Shatter up will be found/not found (as appropriate) in the end, and then business will continue for Dail Eireann as usual.

The only real loser here is the Irish citizen who are governed by these corrupt self-serving incompetents (and the "opposition" are no better for the most part), who have to answer to the keystone cops brigade we call a police force, and who aren't being given any REAL alternatives to chose from.

Irish "Democracy" does not work and the Irish state has failed (economically and politically). I defy anyone here to prove otherwise given this latest farce in a long line of them from both/all sides of the Dail. We are simply to immature as a nation to be let at the controls of a country and this shambles is doomed to repeat until someone takes the keys off us.

the bolt

Deleted User wrote: »

Clare Daly admitted having a drink. There is no suggestion that it was suspected that Alan Shatter had been drinking.

but we will never know because he wasnt given a blood test,used the way home from they dail stroke.since when is been asmatic an accecptable excuse for not giving a breath sample.

drkpower

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Yes, it is; rightly so. I've blown into a breathalyser in the past, my recollection is that it does take a reasonably significant exhalation. Asthma had previously been held to cause to a legitimate inability to provide a complete sample of breath for the purposes of alcohol testing in the English courts (R (Willicott) v DPP [2001])ll.

Failed or incomplete tests due to asthma have been around since breathalysers have. Each case will depend on its own facts so the case law isn't especially relevant. While shatter's asthma is apparently quite mild, he would know that if he ever had to, he would be able to procure medical evidence to the effect that his asthma was such that he may have been unable to complete the test on the night in question. And any such case would be about the medical evidence at the end of the day.

Of course, I am not doubting shatter's side of the story here, I'm just hypothesising.

Sully

the bolt wrote: »

but we will never know because he wasnt given a blood test,used the way home from they dail stroke.since when is been asmatic an accecptable excuse for not giving a breath sample.

Your missing the point. We don't know whether the term 'I'm on the way home from the Dail' resulted in the Gardai backing down. But what is known is that the Gardai do have and can use discretion in relation to breath tests. The Guards in question, may have, felt that he didn't have drink on him and was fine that there was no need to drag him in for blood/urine.

Busted Flat.

Sully wrote: »

Your missing the point. We don't know whether the term 'I'm on the way home from the Dail' resulted in the Gardai backing down. But what is known is that the Gardai do have and can use discretion in relation to breath tests. The Guards in question, may have, felt that he didn't have drink on him and was fine that there was no need to drag him in for blood/urine.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/

What is mandatory alcohol testing and how does it work?
Mandatory alcohol testing means random breath testing. The Road Traffic Act 2006 allows the Gardai (in certain circumstances) to breathalyse the drivers of vehicles without the need to have formed the opinion that the driver had consumed alcohol.

The power can however only be exercised at checkpoints which have been authorised by a Garda Inspector. These checkpoints are specifically designed for the purpose of mandatory alcohol testing. The authorisation must be given by the Inspector in writing and allows Gardai to set up a checkpoint in a public place (or another place). The Gardai can stop any mechanically propelled vehicle (including motorcycles, scooters, electric bicycles, wheelchairs, etc.) and may require the driver of the vehicle to do the following;

Provide a specimen of their breath by exhaling into equipment used for indicating the presence of alcohol in the breath, or
Accompany the Garda (or another Garda) to a place (including a vehicle) at or near the checkpoint to provide by a breath specimen, or
To leave the vehicle at the place where it has been stopped.
Anyone who refuses or fails to comply immediately with the above or to comply in the manner required by the Gardai is guilty of an offence. A Member of the Gardai may also require the driver of the vehicle to move it to a place in the area of the checkpoint and to keep or leave it there until the person has complied with a requirement made of him or her.

The Gardai may arrest (without warrant) anyone who in the opinion of the Garda, is committing or has committed an offence of failure or refusal to comply with a request by the Garda.

Sully

Busted Flat. wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/

What is mandatory alcohol testing and how does it work?
Mandatory alcohol testing means random breath testing. The Road Traffic Act 2006 allows the Gardai (in certain circumstances) to breathalyse the drivers of vehicles without the need to have formed the opinion that the driver had consumed alcohol.

The power can however only be exercised at checkpoints which have been authorised by a Garda Inspector. These checkpoints are specifically designed for the purpose of mandatory alcohol testing. The authorisation must be given by the Inspector in writing and allows Gardai to set up a checkpoint in a public place (or another place). The Gardai can stop any mechanically propelled vehicle (including motorcycles, scooters, electric bicycles, wheelchairs, etc.) and may require the driver of the vehicle to do the following;

Provide a specimen of their breath by exhaling into equipment used for indicating the presence of alcohol in the breath, or
Accompany the Garda (or another Garda) to a place (including a vehicle) at or near the checkpoint to provide by a breath specimen, or
To leave the vehicle at the place where it has been stopped.
Anyone who refuses or fails to comply immediately with the above or to comply in the manner required by the Gardai is guilty of an offence. A Member of the Gardai may also require the driver of the vehicle to move it to a place in the area of the checkpoint and to keep or leave it there until the person has complied with a requirement made of him or her.

The Gardai may arrest (without warrant) anyone who in the opinion of the Garda, is committing or has committed an offence of failure or refusal to comply with a request by the Garda.

The Gardai may arrest (without warrant) anyone who in the opinion of the Garda, is committing or has committed an offence of failure or refusal to comply with a request by the Garda.

'May' & 'Opinion' are the keywords. Hence, discretion. He could have, he didn't. It therefore can be assumed he used his discretion, because as the article says, it was his opinion an offense wasn't committed.

Look up the article about driving with a mobile phone. Wallace wasn't charged - the Gardai used their discretion.

the bolt

Big C wrote: »

Gardai did have discretion, he had to decide to stay where he was or go to tory island for ten years

didnt know tory island had gardai full time

the bolt

Sully wrote: »

Your missing the point. We don't know whether the term 'I'm on the way home from the Dail' resulted in the Gardai backing down. But what is known is that the Gardai do have and can use discretion in relation to breath tests. The Guards in question, may have, felt that he didn't have drink on him and was fine that there was no need to drag him in for blood/urine.

why was it even mentioned though,i have been stoped myself and had the where are you coming from question.i didnt say im coming from IBM ballycolling ,i would just say ballycolling.

SB2013

You can't just drag someone in for a blood/urine test. You have to arrest them. As Shatter invoked his constitutional priviledge he could not be arrested for drink driving or refusing to provide a sample. So wether he lied about his medical condition or not is irrelevent because he could not be arrested either way.

Busted Flat.

SB2013 wrote: »

You can't just drag someone in for a blood/urine test. You have to arrest them. As Shatter invoked his constitutional priviledge he could not be arrested for drink driving or refusing to provide a sample. So wether he lied about his medical condition or not is irrelevent because he could not be arrested either way.

We all know that, but as the saying goes,"people in glass houses should not throw stones". That calls his position as a minister into question, especially in the important position he is in, where he is both Justice and defense minister, where he has access to very sensitive information about the citizen of our country. Remember Sean Doherty, he was only in justice, Cooney in justice, Donegan in defense. This government got in on the promise of new politics, transparency and equality. What does his actions say about that.

SB2013

Busted Flat. wrote: »

We all know that, .

Reading the last few pages would have me doubt that.

mikehammer67

shatter isn't shedding any light on the story then


it's all a bit fishy his threadbare account

he attempted to blow twice

he explained he was on his way home from the dail

Sully

the bolt wrote: »

why was it even mentioned though,i have been stoped myself and had the where are you coming from question.i didnt say im coming from IBM ballycolling ,i would just say ballycolling.

I assume it was meant in a 'I am an upstanding member of the community' kind of way and that its unlikely a TD would go behind the wheel drunk because his career would be over - especially for Shatter, who would have been regarded as the future Minister for Justice if FG got into government.

(I know some TDs have done it to a degree on both sides of the house at one stage or another, some within and some not within the legal limit, but I would say that its more unlikely that a TD would drink drive. Especially for Shatter. It would be completely stupid on top of being completely irresponsible).

I'm often asked 'Where are you coming from?' and sometimes if I reply with one-word answers, ill be told I am getting smart. It probably just helped Shatter would say 'I am coming from the Dail, Guard' - it holds up better for his character.

mikehammer67

Sully wrote: »

I assume it was meant in a 'I am an upstanding member of the community' kind of way and that its unlikely a TD would go behind the wheel drunk because his career would be over - especially for Shatter, who would have been regarded as the future Minister for Justice if FG got into government.

(I know some TDs have done it to a degree on both sides of the house at one stage or another, some within and some not within the legal limit, but I would say that its more unlikely that a TD would drink drive. Especially for Shatter. It would be completely stupid on top of being completely irresponsible).

I'm often asked 'Where are you coming from?' and sometimes if I reply with one-word answers, ill be told I am getting smart. It probably just helped Shatter would say 'I am coming from the Dail, Guard' - it holds up better for his character.

people do stoopid things.............

i dont buy his line on asthma(mild asthma no less) and 2 attempts to blow into the bag

so i'm biased from the getgo

Sully

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Sorry, completely phrased that arseways. That's not what I meant at all at all. Fixed.

Why mention Daly, that is not rephrasing your post. That is not fixed.

Daly isn't mentioned in my fixed post.

I mentioned her because I felt people would shoot back at me saying TDs do drink and drive and my theory was false. I know they do and I was giving examples of those who did off the top of my head, but then it was pointed out how bad it looked so I rephrased what I said and took out names and parties.

mikehammer67

so is there a garda record or not??

Mr Rabbitte said Mr Shatter would publish any garda record of the incident. "If it exists, I am sure he is quite willing to do that," he said.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rabbitte-hits-out-at-drinkdrive-slur-against-embattled-shatter-29298355.html

ResearchWill

SB2013 wrote: »

You can't just drag someone in for a blood/urine test. You have to arrest them. As Shatter invoked his constitutional priviledge he could not be arrested for drink driving or refusing to provide a sample. So wether he lied about his medical condition or not is irrelevent because he could not be arrested either way.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0007/sec0014.html#sec14

Obligation to accompany member to Garda Síochána station, not under arrest, to provide blood or urine specimen.

14.—(1) Whenever a member of the Garda Síochána is of opinion that a person in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place is under the influence of a drug or drugs to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle, he may require the person to accompany him to a Garda Síochána station.

SB2013

ResearchWill wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0007/sec0014.html#sec14

Obligation to accompany member to Garda Síochána station, not under arrest, to provide blood or urine specimen.

14.—(1) Whenever a member of the Garda Síochána is of opinion that a person in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place is under the influence of a drug or drugs to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle, he may require the person to accompany him to a Garda Síochána station.

(2) A person who refuses or fails to comply with a requirement under subsection (1) shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both

(3) A member of the Garda Síochána may arrest without warrant a person who in the member's opinion is committing or has committed an offence under subsection (2)

So again, if they refuse you must arrest them to get them to the station.

mikehammer67

SB2013 wrote: »

So again, if they refuse you must arrest them to get them to the station.

except you can't if they then play the dail card...............

after failing to blow properly


not sayin that's definitely how it went down but we don't know...........



is there a garda report or not ??

Cody Pomeray

Is section 49(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1961 not the same in substance as Section 4(1) of the Road Traffic Act 2010, and therefore it seems the Garda's inability to arrest Shatter on Pembroke Street is all fairly irrelevant... a charge of driving under the influence could still have been brought, if there were a case, without having to arrest Shatter and take a sample from him.

ResearchWill

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Is section 49(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1961 not the same in substance as Section 4(1) of the Road Traffic Act 2010, and therefore it seems the Garda's inability to arrest Shatter on Pembroke Street is all fairly irrelevant... a charge of driving under the influence could still have been brought, if there were a case, without having to arrest Shatter and take a sample from him.

A charge under the old section 49 or the new section 4 would require evidence that drink had been taken, usually the Garda saying I got a smell of drink, there also has to be evidence that because of the intoxicant the person was incapable of having proper control of a MOV. That is the hard bit. To win such cases is very very very hard, they are usually now only brought in drug driving cases.

ResearchWill

SB2013 wrote: »

So again, if they refuse you must arrest them to get them to the station.

My point was only in answer to claims that the only way to bring any citizen to a Garda Station was to arrest him in relation to drink driving. In fact a TD or any of us can be asked to go.

Cody Pomeray

ResearchWill wrote: »

A charge under the old section 49 or the new section 4 would require evidence that drink had been taken, usually the Garda saying I got a smell of drink, there also has to be evidence that because of the intoxicant the person was incapable of having proper control of a MOV. That is the hard bit. To win such cases is very very very hard

To take such a case is un-necessarily burdensome, I'm not sure I'd agree it is "very very hard".

I don't believe there is anything to indicate that Shatter had drink taken when he met the mandatory checkpoint, I am just trying to counter the belief that a TD could then, or can now, expect to get away with having done so by citing Article 15.13. Clearly there are alternatives that apply when, or if, Article 15.13 is cited.

mikehammer67

ResearchWill wrote: »

My point was only in answer to claims that the only way to bring any citizen to a Garda Station was to arrest him in relation to drink driving. In fact a TD or any of us can be asked to go.

how exactly would a gard bring shatter to the station without arresting him

assuming he don want to go and claims he's on his way from the dail

seamus

mikehammer67 wrote: »

how exactly would a gard bring shatter to the station without arresting him

assuming he don want to go and claims he's on his way from the dail

"I would like you to accompany me down to the station to provide a further sample".

Gardai routinely manage to get people to accompany them down to the station without arrest - to give statements, ask questions, etc.

Call me Al

mikehammer67 wrote: »

except you can't if they then play the dail card...............

after failing to blow properly


not sayin that's definitely how it went down but we don't know...........



is there a garda report or not ??

Reading Maeve Sheehan's article in the Irish Independent yesterday, she wrote that the Garda who spoke with Shatter that evening has been contacted by her colleagues in Pearse St. and has told them that she did write up a report. They can't find it though....
It is a good article and spells out events, known and alleged, step by step.