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Mattie Mcgrath accuses Shatter of being stopped by Gardai

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  • 23-05-2013 11:02am
    #1
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Mattie Mcgrath has just, in the Dail during leaders questions, accused Shatter of being stopped by Gardai before the election (late Feb / March 2011) in the period after the election and before he was appointed minister. Asked was the Tanaiste or Taoiseach aware that Minister Shatter was stopped at a Garda Checkpoint. He asked was he cautioned by a Garda, did they use their discretion, was he asked to provide a specimen of breath, and whether his behaviour and reaction to this event was appropriate and cordial, and whether he attempted to to use privilege of travelling to and from the Dail to avoid being breathalysed. He is asking for the Garda report to be given in relation to this incident in the public interest.

    The question was posed to Rabbitte who is doing Leaders Questions today, and Rabbite denied any knowledge but outlined two such incidents where he personally was stopped (and passed the breath test). He said he had no knowledge, asked how would he and that he wouldn't know about any other TD. There was laughter in the chamber during the response.

    Looks like its going to be tit-for-tat in the Dail. Dirty politics being played by everyone, including Shatter. It further proves that if you take a moral high ground on an issue in politics, the media or the opposition will dig and dig until they can trip you up. It happened with Ming, Wallace, and now Shatter. It will be very interesting to see how the Minister responds, and if he didn't provide a specimen of breath under the Dail privilege, his carrier is surely over.


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    #2
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    This whole mess just continues to get worse and worse for shatter.

    In any other civilized country he'd be long gone at this stage, either voluntarily via resignation, or. forcibly, by being sacked.

    I won't hold my breath on either though.


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    #3
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    SamHall wrote: »
    This whole mess just continues to get worse and worse for shatter.

    In any other civilized country he'd be long gone at this stage, either voluntarily via resignation, or. forcibly, by being sacked.

    I won't hold my breath on either though.

    Well to be fair, we have other TDs in the Dail with similar poor records and poor judgement who have yet to resign. But I can't see how, if what Mattie is suggesting is true, he can ride this storm out.


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    #4
    M three
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭M three


    Lets see now what crap shatter will be spouting.
    Perhaps he got pissed and caught drunk driving on purpose, as part of an audit on Garda procedures, eh?

    Time for that waste of space shatter to go.


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    #5
    wazzer1
    Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭wazzer1


    Sorry but whats this Dail privilege, they dont have to take a breath test??


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    #6
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,556 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Lets see what dirt is now been dug on Mattie McGrath and being leaked to our independant media. I think this is going to get nastier and nastier over the next few days.


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    #7
    everdead.ie
    Registered Users Posts: 9,153 ✭✭✭everdead.ie


    I have been stopped by the Gardai several times, normally all they do is check tax and if it's late at night they come over and stick their head in the window to see if I have been drinking.

    More information is needed before we can judge him on this it could be as innocuous as my experience.


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    #8
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Matties accusations raise more questions about TD's and their informants than it does about Alan Shatter. This tit for tat rubbish is distracting time and energy from the bigger issues. Disappointed in Mattie.


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    #9
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    wazzer1 wrote: »
    Sorry but whats this Dail privilege, they dont have to take a breath test??

    No a member of the Dail can not be arrested going to or from the Dail. This is contained in the Constitution Article 15 13

    "13. The members of each House of the Oireachtas shall, except in case of treason as defined in this Constitution, felony or breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest in going to and returning from, and while within the precincts of, either House, and shall not, in respect of any utterance in either House, be amenable to any court or any authority other than the House itself."

    This was to make sure that in important votes members would not be stopped from voting.


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    #10
    cletus van damme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭cletus van damme


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Matties accusations raise more questions about TD's and their informants than it does about Alan Shatter. This tit for tat rubbish is distracting time and energy from the bigger issues. Disappointed in Mattie.

    mattie is dead right in exposing shatter given shatter chose to go down that route. kudos mattie


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    #11
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Matties accusations raise more questions about TD's and their informants than it does about Alan Shatter. This tit for tat rubbish is distracting time and energy from the bigger issues. Disappointed in Mattie.

    You think that it's not in the public interest to know that a serving Minister may have committed a serious offence?


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    #12
    rodento
    Registered Users Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    Shatter will issue a statement later today

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0523/452129-alan-shatter/


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    #13
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    What are the Gardaí at. I don't care so much if Shatter was stopped and used Dáil privilege, as much as there are some extremely loose lipped Gardaí in the force.

    These Gardaí are not whistleblowers - there is no question of illegality and any impropriety seems political and inadequate.

    Forget Shatter, it's about time these unacceptable leaks of individual's records started being clamped down upon.


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    #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bmaxi wrote: »
    You think that it's not in the public interest to know that a serving Minister may have committed a serious offence?

    If he HAD committed a serious offense, yes we would know about it. My problem is where TD's get their information. There are some Gardai being very free and selective in who they are telling tales on. That is not on. Serious questions need to be asked about the practice of Gardai passing on confidential information.


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    #15
    john.han
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭john.han


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If he HAD committed a serious offense, yes we would know about it. My problem is where TD's get their information. There are some Gardai being very free and selective in who they are telling tales on. That is not on. Serious questions need to be asked about the practice of Gardai passing on confidential information.

    As far as I can see they are leaking information about all sides, they're not discriminating, Shatter's use of confidential information given to him in a briefing by the commissioner made everything fair game, that was his call and if it backfires spectacularly then so be it. He retains zero credibility and has abused his office, time for him to go.


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    #16
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    A bit of a crack down is needed tbh, seems getting access on peoples past is easy to come by if you are a member of the Dail or Media.


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    #17
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Agreed that the inability of Garda members to keep a secret is a problem. The other problem is that there doesn't seem to be a single sitting TD who could find the moral high ground with a map and compass.

    The idea that Shatter doing something stupid "made everything fair game" is ridiculous. Either it wasn't OK for him to say what he said on Prime Time, and it's not OK for Mattie McGrath to say what he said; or it's fair game for both of them. "He started it" doesn't cut it.


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    #18
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Matties accusations raise more questions about TD's and their informants than it does about Alan Shatter. This tit for tat rubbish is distracting time and energy from the bigger issues. Disappointed in Mattie.

    You do realise Alan Shatter is minister for justice yeah?

    Issues don't get much bigger than this one tbh.


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    #19
    soobie
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭soobie


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If he HAD committed a serious offense, yes we would know about it. My problem is where TD's get their information. There are some Gardai being very free and selective in who they are telling tales on. That is not on. Serious questions need to be asked about the practice of Gardai passing on confidential information.

    It appears that you seem to be ok when confidential info obtained from Garda Commisioners about Mick Wallace is allowed enter the public domain.

    Originally Posted by Maryanne84
    No. Mick Wallace was one of the few that raised Penalty points being quashed in the Dail, so he's fair game.


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    #20
    john.han
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭john.han


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Agreed that the inability of Garda members to keep a secret is a problem. The other problem is that there doesn't seem to be a single sitting TD who could find the moral high ground with a map and compass.

    The idea that Shatter doing something stupid "made everything fair game" is ridiculous. Either it wasn't OK for him to say what he said on Prime Time, and it's not OK for Mattie McGrath to say what he said; or it's fair game for both of them. "He started it" doesn't cut it.

    He said it and justified saying it with a public interest argument. If he believes his own argument then he'll have to accept the consequencs of that, it was fair of Mattie to release the information given Shatter's justification for his actions and his refusal to accept what he did was an abuse of his office.


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    #21
    john.han
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭john.han


    There is also a distinction in that Shatter received the information in a confidential briefing as part of his Ministerial duties, Mattie McGrath got the information from god knows where but obviously not under the explicit veil of confidentiality that Shatter is obligated to respect with regards to information he is privy to as Minister for Justice.


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    #22
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    SamHall wrote: »
    You do realise Alan Shatter is minister for justice yeah?

    Issues don't get much bigger than this one tbh.

    don't they? Because I'm having trouble identifying the issue.

    All I can see is (1) more allegations of hypocrisy - which was ridiculous when it was applied to excuse leaking Wallace's data, and is just as ridiculous now.

    Or else (2) allegations that the law on impeding TDs on route to the Dáil is unfair. But it is the law, unfairness doesn't come into it.

    To be clear, I think Shatter has to resign for his use of privileged information in a political debate. He deserves that to be the end of his Ministerial career. Resigning over this non issue, as he may do, will just detract from that other, and more serious story.


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    #23
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    john.han wrote: »
    ...it was fair of Mattie to release the information given Shatter's justification for his actions...
    ...which amounts to either a tacit acceptance that Shatter's actions were justified, or to hypocrisy. Which is it?


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    #24
    john.han
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭john.han


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...which amounts to either a tacit acceptance that Shatter's actions were justified, or to hypocrisy. Which is it?

    Don't be selective in what you quote, I drew a distinction between how each of them came upon the information and it's clear Shatter breached his duties to the office he holds. Shatter refused to accept responsibility for the abuse of his position, in doing so he created a public interest requirement for information regarding his behaviour to be released.

    Shatter's actions can never be justified given the manner in which he came to know of Wallace's mobile phone use.


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    #25
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    john.han wrote: »
    Shatter refused to accept responsibility for the abuse of his position, in doing so he created a public interest requirement for information regarding his behaviour to be released.
    Completely false comparison.

    Yes Shatter refused to accept responsibility for the abuse of his position. That much is agreed.

    But there is absolutely no logical link to then revealing private information from Shatter's personal interactions with the Gardaí. That's nothing more than another attempt political assassination, using information that should never enter the public domain.


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    #26
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    john.han wrote: »
    Shatter's actions can never be justified given the manner in which he came to know of Wallace's mobile phone use.
    Just so we're clear, your opinion on whether or not it's acceptable to release confidential Garda information about a political opponent is predicated solely and totally on the manner in which that information was obtained?


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    #27
    John_C
    Registered Users Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭John_C


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Just so we're clear, your opinion on whether or not it's acceptable to release confidential Garda information about a political opponent is predicated solely and totally on the manner in which that information was obtained?

    I'm sure john.han can answer for himself but I think how the data's obtained plays a pretty big part in it.
    I don't think there was anything wrong with this story being published. I thought the story about Ming's points was fair too. Certainly I don't think the journos or TDs did anything wrong (I'm a bit sceptical of the Guards motivations). The main problem with Shatter's story is that he got the info in a briefing which was supposed to be confidential.


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    #28
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    John_C wrote: »
    The main problem with Shatter's story is that he got the info in a briefing which was supposed to be confidential.

    I haven't seen anyone make that argument.

    The valid argument against what Shatter did was that the data is confidential, not the meeting.

    There are no existing rules about this specific briefing between the Garda Commissioner and the Minister being necessarily confidential, unless you know of any?


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    #29
    john.han
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭john.han


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    I haven't seen anyone make that argument.

    The valid argument against what Shatter did was that the data is confidential, not the meeting.

    There are no existing rules about this specific briefing between the Garda Commissioner and the Minister being necessarily confidential, unless you know of any?

    Read my posts again, I make that point expicitly.

    Briefings between the Commissioner and the Minister for Justice are confidential given the sensitive nature of the information exchanged, by using such information Shatter breached the trust required for him to remain in office. I have stated he should resign, and in reality if he doesn't then he should be sacked.


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    #30
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    john.han wrote: »
    Briefings between the Commissioner and the Minister for Justice are confidential given the sensitive nature of the information exchanged...
    ...but if similarly sensitive information is received by an opposition TD from a Garda member in a pub, there is no expectation of confidentiality?

    For that matter, if Shatter had had the information whispered to him in whatever manner Mattie McGrath had, it wouldn't have been a problem for him to have disclosed it?


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    #31
    john.han
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭john.han


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Just so we're clear, your opinion on whether or not it's acceptable to release confidential Garda information about a political opponent is predicated solely and totally on the manner in which that information was obtained?

    Twisting words doesn't make for strong argument, certain information garnered can never be released, such as information given to the Justice minister in confidential briefings with the head of our police force, that is a simple fact ensuring a democratic separation of powers required to ensure our police force is politically neutral.

    Where our Justice minister chooses to release such information (for the purpose of a political attack), he creates a situation where the separation of powers is no longer intact and thus his position is untenable. It is perfectly fair for his hypocrisy to be exposed given his actions. A higher standard is required for a minister with regards information gained in such briefings, that is clear and straightforward and I'm surprised you can't make the distinction.


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