Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

L1011

Fattes wrote: »

So I will ask again WHY SHOULD DUBLIN HAVE UNLIMITED OPERATING HOURS WITH NO RESTRICTIONS. Answer should include reasons beyond, "because they should"

Because of very real commercial demands that you keep hand-waving away despite having been told them tens of times.

Why shouldn't they, with reasons other than "I live there"?

JCX BXC

L1011 wrote: »

.

Why shouldn't they, with reasons other than "I live there"?

Seemingly the other reason is because other airports do, and of course Dublin, although different in many aspects to the other airports, must follow this aspect too.

Fattes

L1011 wrote: »

Because of very real commercial demands that you keep hand-waving away despite having been told them tens of times.

Why shouldn't they, with reasons other than "I live there"?

We didn't object to the original planing application, and generally see development and expansion of the airport as a positive thing.

Those very commercial demands you mention, is there a commercial demand for flights at 4am? If it is so commercially beneficial why does every major European airport and hub operate quiet hours? Approx 35% of all traffic through Dublin airport is departing for the England, not the UK but England alone. What commercial need requires flights between 23:00 and 07:00 on two runways? Your explanation so far has been commercial demand, no substance or stats to support it just a demand you perceive to exist.

Dub will be allowed to operate 1 runway between 06:00 and 07:00 even if they could operate both they would struggle with stand space right now. Hence the current construction of new Aprons etc. As for Growth Sir Tim Clark was in the news today talking about the shrinking market place and seat occupancy with his airline, in relation to its A380 orders.

Zurich, LHR, Munich, Frankfurt, all struggle horribly because of the quiet hours their airport operate, nope, they are successful.

goingnowhere

Currently once the wind is blowing the correct way two runways are in use in Dublin during the morning peak (28+34)

To reach Europe we need to start earlier as its at least 2 hours flying and we have a time difference of 1 hour against us

The connection operation in Dublin is aligned to collect passengers off the early arrivals from BOS/JFK/ORD and get them on the first wave of departures, if you block landings till after 6am this messes this up and really messes Aer Lingus up as they get one of the early A330 arrivals turned around and off to Malaga at 7am

Bear in mind the stand space issue is all about turnaround, the quicker you can dispatch the aircraft the quicker you can take an incoming

Nothing but pain if the winds favour runway 10, long taxi, long queues and delays

billie1b

Dublin is not LHR, FRA, MUN etc etc, bucket and spade routes to France, Spain, Portugal all usually depart during 6am - 8pm in the evening due to slot times, the only times available for other countries such as Turkey, Greece, Cypus and further east are late night early morning slot departures, this is due to the other airports giving demand to their home airlines, same as what Dublin does with Ryanair and Aer Lingus.
If the airport really does want to expand east and west it will need less restrictions, there is already noise abatement procedures in place that seems to work well for most residents, it wont be any different with another runway operating at the same time, you'll have the noise of jets taking off one day and then landing the next etc, it wont change a thing.
People just want things to moan about and I know you're probably sick being told but if it really does bother you move house or if you want I have multiple pair of ear defenders that I never use. Not personally attacking you but it sickens me that the expansion of jobs, tourism, money, businesses etc can be held up due to a couple of hundred people thinking its going to bother them. After a couple of days you wont even notice the noise, you'll be that accustomed to it if you are not already. I would honestly give my left arm, kidney or whatever to live in Newtown Cottages or one of the cottages along the bravos road or old airport road, id be that happy about it id even build myslef a viewing balcony for my days off!!

man98

Fattes wrote: »

Better tell the Swiss and German authorities there is a total block on flights at Zurich unless emergencies due to issues with German airspace and zurich residents.

https://www.zurich-airport.com/the-company/media/current-topics/night-flight-ban

http://www.slotcoordination.ch/xml_1/internet/en/application/d4/d56/f57.cfm

I'm not well versed in relation to Zurich, but they enforce use of the crosswind runway in the evening time. I wasn't aware of any blanket ban, as I have been on quite a late flight out of there before.
I'm not arguing in favour of completely unregulated movements in DUB, but surely if there was no demand for a 0400 departure then no one would schedule a flight that early? Late night slots will only serve two types of airline, charter operations and Eastern European airlines (Blue/ Air Moldova etc.). As someone who has used an early morning flight from Dublin, I can assure you that 30 - 40 minute taxi times (weather dependent) do not entice the likes of Ethiopian or FedEx to fly here. It's only going to get worse.

BonkeyDonker

billie1b wrote: »

I would honestly give my left arm, kidney or whatever to live in Newtown Cottages or one of the cottages along the bravos road or old airport road, id be that happy about it id even build myslef a viewing balcony for my days off!!

Surely somebody living in Newtown Cottages ( a on-av geek of course) would see the benefits of unrestricted OPs on both runways as the departure load would be split between them, and as the new runway is further away than the current one the noise footprint reduced.

IRLConor

Fattes wrote: »

So I will ask again WHY SHOULD DUBLIN HAVE UNLIMITED OPERATING HOURS WITH NO RESTRICTIONS. Answer should include reasons beyond, "because they should"

The short version is that if you need a 0900 start outside the country you need a departure time before 0700 for the UK and before 0600 for the rest of Europe (closer to 0500 for most of it). Similarly, if you're trying to hit a connection in LHR/CDG/AMS/FRA then you usually need a relatively early departure from Dublin.

You might be successful with arguing for a noise quota system before, say, 0500 but after that Dublin needs to be able to make maximum use of the runways available until the morning peak is over.

Fattes

IRLConor wrote: »

The short version is that if you need a 0900 start outside the country you need a departure time before 0700 for the UK and before 0600 for the rest of Europe (closer to 0500 for most of it). Similarly, if you're trying to hit a connection in LHR/CDG/AMS/FRA then you usually need a relatively early departure from Dublin.

You might be successful with arguing for a noise quota system before, say, 0500 but after that Dublin needs to be able to make maximum use of the runways available until the morning peak is over.

Even heathrow can not justify a regular 4am slot for flights, their flight restrictions are actually self imposed. But sure in Dublin we need it it is essential. All business meetings must start at 9am. 10am Is unacceptable. :rolleyes:

Again one runway will be operational from 06:00 - 07:00

MJohnston

Fattes wrote: »

Even heathrow can not justify a regular 4am slot for flights, their flight restrictions are actually self imposed. But sure in Dublin we need it it is essential. All business meetings must start at 9am. 10am Is unacceptable. :rolleyes:

Again one runway will be operational from 06:00 - 07:00

But the bolded bit is overwhelmingly true. 9am lets you have meetings with people in person in London who might also be trying to connect with people in Australia, or more likely, India or China. 9am is a sweet spot for that. Additionally, earlier arrivals on business trips to the UK allow for same-day returns, which reduces the costs for businesses substantially.

Brian CivilEng

That is the biggest problem, the 6 to 7 hour is when two runways are needed most. Dublin currently has unrestricted flights yet only a handful operate between midnight and 5am, I doubt that is going to change any time soon. But the planning restriction defines night as 11pm to 7am, which includes both the current busiest hour for arrivals (11pm to midnight) and departures (6am - 7am).

To ban use of two runways during peak hour would be like banning use of the Aviva Stadium for the months of February and March.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/daa-eyes-easing-of-dublin-flight-restrictions-under-new-runway-1.2651731

Fattes

MJohnston wrote: »

But the bolded bit is overwhelmingly true. 9am lets you have meetings with people in person in London who might also be trying to connect with people in Australia, or more likely, India or China. 9am is a sweet spot for that. Additionally, earlier arrivals on business trips to the UK allow for same-day returns, which reduces the costs for businesses substantially.

Back when I had a real job in investment banking the overwhelming % of meetings with London are held in the afternoon, due to market trading times etc. In reality a large number of companies are moving to improved telecommunications interface for a large number of meetings to reduce costs and improve efficiency.

If you really want to be at a 9 am meeting in London a 6 am flight is risky, 30min delay tue to weather, and you could miss your meeting!

LXFlyer

Fattes wrote: »

Even heathrow can not justify a regular 4am slot for flights, their flight restrictions are actually self imposed. But sure in Dublin we need it it is essential. All business meetings must start at 9am. 10am Is unacceptable. :rolleyes:

Again one runway will be operational from 06:00 - 07:00

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Dublin Airport have unrestricted flights through the night, or at 04:00 as you keep mentioning.

The only flights that will happen in the early mornings are the transatlantic arrivals, there won't be a whole host of early departures.

Realistically what is being talked about in terms of departures is dual runway operations during the hour between 06:00 and 07:00. That is critical to getting the entire Dublin based Ryanair and Aer Lingus fleets en route to continental destinations in particular, and freeing up stands for arriving aircraft.

As others have mentioned, our location on the perimeter of Europe and the clock change do mean that for those first flights that hour is critical to getting people to prime destinations early and facilitate meetings and onward flight connections.

I don't see the need for two runways being operational between midnight and 06:00 frankly - the single runway will suffice.

During Dublin's busiest hours for arrivals and departures there is STILL either aircraft landing or taking off depending on the time.

TWO runways WILL be operational between 06:00 and 07:00 every morning. The demand will increase for arrivals in the morning when the runway opens, at the moment it is restricted to give local operators the ability to clear the house of their first wave departures.

Fattes

[Deleted User] wrote: »

During Dublin's busiest hours for arrivals and departures there is STILL either aircraft landing or taking off depending on the time.

TWO runways WILL be operational between 06:00 and 07:00 every morning. The demand will increase for arrivals in the morning when the runway opens, at the moment it is restricted to give local operators the ability to clear the house of their first wave departures.

You better tell the DAA they are going to be doing something they say they won't be doing! Putting it in bold does not mean you are right it just highlights how wrong you are in relation to the DAA position! Link below Condition 3(d) and condition 5 of the planning permission.

https://www.dublinairport.com/regulation-and-planning/north-runway/faq's

Fattes

Fattes wrote: »

You better tell the DAA they are going to be doing something they say they won't be doing! Putting it in bold does not mean you are right it just highlights how wrong you are in relation to the DAA position! Link below Condition 3(d) and condition 5 of the planning permission.

https://www.dublinairport.com/regulation-and-planning/north-runway/faq's

No highlighting it in bold indicates in the first place a fact, and, in the 2nd and 3rd case what will happen when the runway is built IN MY OPINION and

Our focus will be on making a strong case to have the conditions of use amended which we believe will succeed.

in the DAA's opinion as well.

The above was taken from the link you kindly supplied, the DAA already know about it I don't need to tell them.

Fattes

Deleted User wrote: »

No highlighting it in bold indicates in the first place a fact, and, in the 2nd and 3rd case what will happen when the runway is built IN MY OPINION and in the DAA's opinion as well.

The above was taken from the link you kindly supplied, the DAA already know about it I don't need to tell them.

This aint Neverland just because you believe something, won't make it so Peter Pan!

The DAA did not appeal a single condition of Planning application, F04A/217429, after shelving it, when the decided to look at a 2nd runway they again chose the original PP without appeal. Therefore the conditions outlined in relation to the 2nd runway will be enforce until the review date of 2025. Despite what you believe. Unless the DAA want to break the law, it is not going to happen.

Secondly not a single major European Airport has had its quiet hours relaxed in recent years, Zurich's were tightened in around 2013/14, Schippol in the early 00's and Heathrow operate theirs on a voluntary basis, because they believe if enforced their restrictions would be tighter than current.

So unless you can provide evidence an appeal by the DAA or a master plan to subvert the planning process your opinion is pie in the sky

The evidence is in my post 1826 which you edited out of your response, you know the bit with the quote from the link you supplied where the DAA say they will be making a case to amend the conditions of use. I never said they have I merely quoted an official quote from the DAA from a link you supplied. You may choose to ignore that and that is entirely up to you but I'm not going to ignore the clear and obvious.

Why would they have appealed a PP for something they were shelving ?

Why would they appeal something that would cause the original PP to lapse and expire ?
Why wouldn't they appeal something now, considering it is their intention to build it before the PP expires and to have the physical runway built and in place ?
It is going to take 3 years to build and in the mean time they will appeal the restrictions, restrictions that were based on old design noisy aircraft. Not the newer more modern quieter aircraft the basis for their appeal.

Seen as Heathrows approaches were mentioned by you and others it's curfew is 2330 to 0600 and their movements outside these hours are limited to 5800 annual movements or just under 16 per night. http://www.heathrow.com/noise/heathrow-operations/night-flights#

Peter Pan Out.

Fattes

Deleted User wrote: »

The evidence is in my post 1826 which you edited out of your response, you know the bit with the quote from the link you supplied where the DAA say they will be making a case to amend the conditions of use. I never said they have I merely quoted an official quote from the DAA from a link you supplied. You may choose to ignore that and that is entirely up to you but I'm not going to ignore the clear and obvious.

Why would they have appealed a PP for something they were shelving ?

Why would they appeal something that would cause the original PP to lapse and expire ?
Why wouldn't they appeal something now, considering it is their intention to build it before the PP expires and to have the physical runway built and in place ?
It is going to take 3 years to build and in the mean time they will appeal the restrictions, restrictions that were based on old design noisy aircraft. Not the newer more modern quieter aircraft the basis for their appeal.

Seen as Heathrows approaches were mentioned by you and others it's curfew is 2330 to 0600 and their movements outside these hours are limited to 5800 annual movements or just under 16 per night.

Peter Pan Out.

There window to appeal the PP is closed, so that is not an option, They didn't appeal PP before they knew it was not happening, during the window allowed.Like you they can make all the statements they like but have not activated the options available to them to make it happen so it won't happen.

The real world is not based on statements made by commercial enterprises, selling bonds for building a new run way.

Go find the link I posted for Heathrow, their curfew is until 07:00 only certain aircraft can operate between, 06:00 and 07:00 while others are banned in those hours. Again all available outside of Neverland

Fattes

Fattes wrote: »

There window to appeal the PP is closed, so that is not an option, They didn't appeal PP before they knew it was not happening, during the window allowed.Like you they can make all the statements they like but have not activated the options available to them to make it happen so it won't happen.

The real world is not based on statements made by commercial enterprises, selling bonds for building a new run way.

Go find the link I posted for Heathrow, their curfew is until 07:00 only certain aircraft can operate between, 06:00 and 07:00 while others are banned in those hours. Again all available outside of Neverland

http://www.heathrow.com/noise/heathrow-operations/night-flights#

That's the post I linked in my last post. It's official.

http://www.magworld.co.uk/magweb.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/MAN%20NoisePolicy/$file/Manchester%20Night%20Noise%20Policy.opdf

The aircraft not allowed are 747-200's and LOUDER. The restriction on scheduled flights is 2330 to 0600 on most types of aircraft except for 5800 per annum. It's there in blank and white in the link I supplied from HEATHROW themselves. It's 6am NOT 7am.

I find Neverland to be very fact based.

Tenger

Tenger wrote: »

This discussion was quite nice and respectful earlier on today. This thread has generated a couple of reports. I didn't interject as a mod as I felt that the posters in the thread were handling themselves quite well. However it has suddenly become a little heated. ............But please dont be attacking another poster on technicalites when they are relaying figures provided by a company, or figures being used as an example.
........

The planning process is there to find a compromise solution, that is not what we are here to do.
What we can do is say "I disagree with your point and here is my opinion on the matter"
Its a lovely sunny June day, we dont have to see eye to eye but we can at least disagree like civilised posters. If the personal attacks/disagreements continue then warnings will be issued

Oh look....I think I posted this 2 days ago.....now Im on my holidays at the moment. So having to find a net cafe to log on to get mod privileges on a PC to do is something I dont really want to do.
Thread locked until some adults come along to have an adult discussion.

Tenger

Thread re-opened

JCX BXC

So what has to be done between now and the first bit of physical work being done?

Carnacalla

Carnacalla wrote: »

So what has to be done between now and the first bit of physical work being done?

They should have just finished surveying, so it'll be sent out to tender in next few months when they decide the final fit out.

They've put up notices to say they're removing the right of way over the roads north of The Boot Inn.

Tender process, followed by a decision on who the best bidder is, which will lead to winner getting their stuff together to start.

Pat Dunne

Carnacalla wrote: »

So what has to be done between now and the first bit of physical work being done?

Loads of meetings followed by even more paper work. Then follow up meetings, additional paperwork, some shouting and arguing and perhaps then maybe the crossing of "t's"and dotting of "i's"!

billie1b

The usual will happen, they'll go for the dearest tender offer, then between that contractor and DAA they'll hire the lads that put in the cheapest offer, hire them to do the work and split the difference to line their own pockets. The way the usual construction malarky goes on in this country

crosstownk

Deleted User wrote: »

They've put up notices to say they're removing the right of way over the roads north of The Boot Inn.

What will happen to Ye Olde Boot Inn? Will there still be access to it? I cycled past it the other day on my way home from work and there were customers in the beer garden having a few beers in the warm weather. I was very tempted to stop and join them.

It doesn't look like an exceptionally busy place and I imagine the re-routing of the roads won't help.

crosstownk

crosstownk wrote: »

What will happen to Ye Olde Boot Inn? Will there still be access to it? I cycled past it the other day on my way home from work and there were customers in the beer garden having a few beers in the warm weather. I was very tempted to stop and join them.

It doesn't look like an exceptionally busy place and I imagine the re-routing of the roads won't help.

Nah business is poor unless it's a sunny day. Access will still be available from end of 10 and eventually a similar parallel road will open around 10L.

jimbis

Some budding entrepreneur could be onto a winner there with the boot inns position.

Just looking at in on Apple maps, seems like the 'land border' of properties around the boot inn continues on airside. Do they have rights to the fodder or something.
It's more noticeable on Apple maps than google.

Shannon757

How much is all this going to cost?