Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

Qaanaaq

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132548#Comment_122132548

When was is submitted to them though? As far as i understood from previous posts on the subject i was under the impression that the DAA and ATC DUB needed to develop procedures together for LVO operations and then send these to the IAA for approval.

shamrocka330

I believe this to be the case - apparently when the cloud level is below 800ft, it impacts visibility from the tower so procedures need to be approved.

davebuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133332#Comment_122133332

So its with the DAA and ATC which I think is the IAA, I'm surprised the airlines are not making more noise on this as the delays must mount up for EI and FR after the delays add up during the single runway ops?

EchoIndia

ATC is part of AirNav Ireland since the two functions were split up. The regulator and service provider were therefore separated.

davebuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133862#Comment_122133862

So DAA and Air Nav need to submit to the IAA for approval re using North runway under LVO, thanks for clarlfying the operations.

LXFlyer

OK thanks for that clarification.

Have AirNav Ireland now got the full complement of staff numbers in place in ATC at Dublin?

That was being mentioned as an underlying issue before.

trellheim

A million things in the airport to fix and this weeks great answer : AI robots in the concourse.

The number 1 thing needed in every single concourse both terminals : more places to sit down, followed by more jax ( at least 3 or 4 times the current number )

if I had a no.3 it would be to widen the street between T1 screening down to the old starbucks , the crowds are terrible and make people a bit claustrophobic and its just a stupidly relentless focus on retail

Bussywussy

Another farce this morning, saw a ryanair waiting over 5 mins at 28L holding point for an ATR about 50 miles out to land. Could of got at least 3 departures out.

Karppi

Retail is regarded as a revenue generator, airport operations is a cost. Guess who wins.

Cookiemunster

When is the last time anyone was in a major airport where the weren't funneled through retail after security? It's not in any way unique to Dublin.

trellheim

Heathrow where Aer Lingus are, its off to the sides, Newark , etc, there's tons and thats only after 5 seconds thinking . Gatwick if you don't go down the escalators you come out on the upstairs concourse.

Now my point more is the complete claustrophobia of it. It is all round a poor experience in both terminals and none of the expansion plans published focus on any of this. I've a rational expectation about retail

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159588#Comment_122159588

There had to be a good reason for that. DUB are good at single-runway ops and don't delay things just for the sake of it.

IngazZagni

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160589#Comment_122160589

When compared to the likes of Gatwick I'd argue Dublin is quite poor at single runway ops. Not streamlined efficiently enough. Also takes too long to switch to single runway ops and everyone is waiting for a manager to approve it.

Significant morning delays again today due to the North runway being out of action.

EchoIndia

I think LGW have probably maxed out what can be achieved with a single runway, and have got the necessary exit taxiways and line-up points to help achieve that. They won't be getting a proper parallel one any time soon, of course. DUB is more constrained on single-runway ops, I'd say, and I think there may be (or have been) proposals for more line-up points on 10R in particular.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161972#Comment_122161972

they still haven't gotten back up to the peak movements they hit with NATS a few years back… NATS lost the contract to ANS and along with it went systems and experience…

NATS have the contract again after Gatwick got rid of ANS, but, they still haven't managed to hit peak movements yet (55 per hr I think it was).

All the local ATCO experience is gone and needs to ramp back up again.

vswr

Dublin is terrible compared Gatwick.

Procedures, ATCO experience and systems are not conducive to streamlined single runways ops anymore

jwm121

What does it take for Dublin to begin parallel operations? Judging by the talk here not for a while and not sure if they have enough traffic for that yet. The north runway has been open almost 2 years and everything is still going slowly - like having to close it in a bit of fog

Bussywussy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163843#Comment_122163843

It doesn't even take fog to close it, low cloud base does it.

Would switching departures to 10L improve it? I know it's not the "preferred" TO runway

Qaanaaq

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163930#Comment_122163930

Unfortunately that is not a pallitable option for the DAA. The stakeholders just need to get the procedures approved for landing on 10L and take off on 10R.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163843#Comment_122163843

I feel there is a case for peak time parallel ops (arrivals or departures)…

That is scuppered straight away though due to the noise restrictions in place, which stipulate only 1 runway at a time being used for arrivals and the other for departures.

That aside, the usual would need to happen:

-approval by regulator with current evidence to allow trials of parallell ops

-consultation (local and international), then design of airspace, update of procedures and training

-Phased introduction with limited ops, usually starting with 1 hr, then 2 etc… (or as required for peak time ops)

-ATCO's at airport and centre get time on new systems and procedures

-empirical evidence is built for usually 6 to 12 months

-submission to regulator for certification of approval for ops

trellheim

28R as parking garage this week lol really

Jinglejangle69

1. Noise Preferential Route (NPR) or “Environmental Corridor” is made up by daa and has not been approved for noise or environmental pollution by any agency or authority.

2. ANCA is the noise authority and their comment on NPR is: “ANCA was not involved in the design, naming or implementation of these corridors and has no information evidencing the significance, from a noise perspective, of the use of this term.”

3. According to repeated statements from IAA they do not consider planning permission or environmental law when approving a flight path. They don’t care what’s on the ground and look only at air law and aviation regulations. Approval by IAA has NOTHING to do with noise or other environmental pollution.

4. AirNav is a commercial air traffic control services company that daa hired to design the flight paths. AirNav is not an engineering practice or a design company. AirNav is not qualified or approved to design flight paths.

5. AirNav have written they did not consider the planning permission when they did the flight path design work for daa.

6.Daa did not read the procedures they got back from AirNav or check the flight paths for compliance with the planning permission because they thought their contractor (AirNav) had done that. They simply submitted them to IAA (the regulator) for approval (see 3).

7. At the time when AirNav did this work it was part of the IAA. So daa paid the IAA (its regulator) to design the flight paths, despite IAA not being a design practice. IAA then sent the design to daa who sent it to IAA who approved it.

8. No one in senior management or on the board at daa has any qualification or experience in aviation or engineering or infrastructure development.

9. Aircraft flying inside the daa-made-up NPR are deemed BY DAA and no one else to be flying on-track. That’s the excuse they use for ignoring the noise reports on their online system.There is no State oversight of any of these three State-owned companies: AirNav, daa, and IAA. None of them are “government bodies”, they are all commercial companies, part of the aviation industry and just happen to be owned by the State.The Department of Transport Aviation Section has admitted that they have no technical aviation expertise and are unable to provide oversight of aviation in Ireland. This was 7 years ago in the wake of the Rescue Helicopter crashing into the rock that was not in the database. There is no indication that this situation has changed.

There is no one minding the store and Minister Eamon Ryan cannot discuss anything aviation because only Jack Chambers is allowed to handle aviation matters.Junior Transport Minister for Aviation Jack Chambers has refused to meet or listen to anyone with actual technical knowledge repeatedly over the last six months. He accepts only what daa, IAA and AirNav tells him.

I know it’s long but would be interested to hear peoples opinions here.

EchoIndia

What's the net problem you're trying to describe?

dublin12367

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165000#Comment_122165000

From what I can gather it’s the North Runway Technical Group throwing their toys out of the pram because the daa didn’t accept their proposed flight path.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164691#Comment_122164691

IAA is split into 2 entities as of last year…

Safety and regulation = IAA

ANSP services = AirNav Ireland

It is specifically AirNav Ireland's job to design airspace, provide engineering services and ATC services. So a lot of your points in reference to them either don't apply to the correct entity, or are just plain garbage.

Bussywussy

I think it's been mentioned here a million times flight paths are not subject to planning laws

HTCOne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164691#Comment_122164691

There is so much misinformation and disinformation in that post I don’t even know where to start.

Jinglejangle69

Maybe start with number 1???

HTCOne

Well i’ll start with the most glaringly false that jumps out at me.

EU 373/2017 deals with how competent authorities oversee Change Management procedures with ANSPs. You can’t even interact with the competent authority unless you have received the required training as certified by the competent authority and Eurocontrol, you can’t even take part in a change unless you have had the required SME training as certified by the competent authority and Eurocontrol. All off this is in turn overseen and audited by EASA.

“Airnav is not qualified or approved to design flight paths” is a lie and could see you in court. ANSPs are absolutely certified to design airspaces, air routes, SIDS, STARS, Navaids etc. It forms part of the Network Manager function in each ANSP, who report to the central Network Manager office in Brussels. All of this is again overseen by the relevant competent authority, Eurocontrol and EASA. Anyone submitting a change to any of the above has their credentials checked by the competent authority each time they do so.

AnRothar

ANSPs are absolutely certified to design airspaces, air routes, SIDS, STARS, Navaids etc. It forms part of the Network Manager function in each ANSP,

Facinating