Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

JCX BXC

Pat Dunne wrote: »

So the job of clearing the snow took 55 minutes longer to do than originally anticipated. Its all very easy to be critical when you're wrapped up nice and warm typing furiously over a hot keyboard and not out on a dark miserable night with the wind and snow. I say well done to the ground crews who did a great job tonight in what were far from ideal conditions.

Calm down Pat.

While I've no doubt that the crews working themselves did a good job, it's clear that there was a massive lack of communication, possibly a failure/lack of protocol and the thing was a mess. Is this acceptable for an international airport nearing 30 million passengers yealy? Why can airports such as Belfast, Manchester, Knock nearby all clear snow much more efficiently? Important questions that should be asked.

I'm sorry if this hurts you Pat, however using cop outs like "It's easy to sit at home warm typing furiously" doesn't contribute to anything and really says that you don't have anything to debate, other than adding some passive agressiveness.

Bussywussy

So did the plan in the fancy snow plan booklet sent around work?? Some pics from people working there showed some of the brand new unused tractors sitting there covered in snow..

Tenger

Lets all of us just calm down a little. No need to be throwing passive agressive slights at other posters.

Tenger

Im going to take a guess that perhaps the airport has less than its full complement of ramp workers after 10pm at night. Thus the snow plan (Im sure the DAA have a term for it!) which works well from 0600-2100 is a little slower outside these times.
Times are just a guess on my part. A problem could well be that the line mangers thought DUB had escaped the worst of it and/or didnt add extra bodies to deal with expected coverage.
I do agree that the time taken was quite long but we dont know the condition's on the gorund or the resources available. Perhaps the 0020 opening was overly optimistic and made before the work got underway?

Pat Dunne

I work very close to DUB (2km from T2) and witnessed the conditions first hand when I was finishing up work at 12 midnight and driving home along the perimeter road of 10/28 a little later.

Again I will say well done to all the machine operators and ground staff you did a great job last night.

To paraphrase my earlier post, "it's easy to be critical from afar.

What I’m told is, the runway and taxiways were swept clear but by the time they finished they needed another going over due continuous falling snow.

JCX BXC

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What I’m told is, the runway and taxiways were swept clear but by the time they finished they needed another going over due continuous falling snow.

That would have been understandable, however it's clear from the radar and reports from the weather thread that all snow stopped before midnight.

Conflats

Would the fact we don't get frequent snow not allow for the fact that clearing the airfield of snow and ice by crews who I'm sure practice the job, when the real thing happens things will be a little slower the first time due to people taking care and other kinks to work out?

Practice is great learning tool but you can't foresee the actual situation and how it will plan out.

Gaoth Laidir

I'd say the lads went:

Who's seen the keys for the snow tractors?
You had them last.
No i didn't, you had them.
Found them!
Crank crank....the flecking battery's flat! They've been sitting here idle too long!

Jamie2k9

Not wanting to be to critical of staff, but the performance last night was poor, yes it took almost an extra hour to open the runway. Snowfall was not exceptionally heavy and this would beg the question, how prepared are they for heavy snow.

Hopefully daa take the time to look and see where they can improve.

Captain_Crash

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not wanting to be to critical of staff, but the performance last night was poor, yes it took almost an extra hour to open the runway. Snowfall was not exceptionally heavy and this would beg the question, how prepared are they for heavy snow.

Hopefully daa take the time to look and see where they can improve.

It rained straight after, that rain would have froze pretty quick considering the temp and the snow already on the runway... so it taking almost an extra hour to clear, at night when there was likely a reduced staff number, is excellent.

If anything, they may have been too optimistic with the estimated opening time and if they told people they would be done at 00:30 instead of 23:30 (or whatever the times were) then we'd be praising them on this thread and not finding fault.

EchoIndia

Captain_Crash wrote: »

It rained straight after, that rain would have froze pretty quick considering the temp and the snow already on the runway... so it taking almost an extra hour to clear, at night when there was likely a reduced staff number, is excellent.

If anything, they may have been too optimistic with the estimated opening time and if they told people they would be done at 00:30 instead of 23:30 (or whatever the times were) then we'd be praising them on this thread and not finding fault.

Unless anyone posting here has direct knowledge of what is involved and what was done on the night in question, I find it hard to see how they can judge whether a "good" or "not so good" job was done. Runway 10/28 and the main taxi routes and several parking stands had to be cleared. These are extensive areas when they are added up. From listening to ATC that night, the runway had to be done a second time after clearance and spraying, as the braking coeffcient was still not deemed sufficient. Having the airport fully functional for the inbound long-distance arrivals and large morning departure wave would probably have been regarded as the greater priority and if just one arrival had gone off the runway edge or end, I can imagine the judgements that would have been made of the airport authorities and their staff.

Jamie2k9

Captain_Crash wrote: »

It rained straight after, that rain would have froze pretty quick considering the temp and the snow already on the runway... so it taking almost an extra hour to clear, at night when there was likely a reduced staff number, is excellent.

If anything, they may have been too optimistic with the estimated opening time and if they told people they would be done at 00:30 instead of 23:30 (or whatever the times were) then we'd be praising them on this thread and not finding fault.

From what I gather staff were on standby from early evening so "reduced staff" isn't exactly a good reason. If they were too optimistic with runway opening time than that's something they can learn and improve the workload for airline planning.

Unless anyone posting here has direct knowledge of what is involved and what was done on the night in question, I find it hard to see how they can judge whether a "good" or "not so good" job was done. Runway 10/28 and the main taxi routes and several parking stands had to be cleared. These are extensive areas when they are added up. From listening to ATC that night, the runway had to be done a second time after clearance and spraying, as the braking coeffcient was still not deemed sufficient. Having the airport fully functional for the inbound long-distance arrivals and large morning departure wave would probably have been regarded as the greater priority and if just one arrival had gone off the runway edge or end, I can imagine the judgements that would have been made of the airport authorities and their staff.

It was fully functioning by morning but after a lot of diversions and it could of been higher only for the runway resurfacing works where most airlines are getting back pre 23.00. Morning departures couldn't happen if night stopped couldn't of got in...

As I said always room to improve and didn't at all intend to just criticize staff for the good job they did.

JCX BXC

I think any criticism is taken as a direct insult to staff, its not, and I'm not sure why anyone would think it is.

I'm sure staff worked their hardest, however there was clearly issues.

There's a few questions that should be answered as a result.

*Why was a more realistic reopening time not initially given? The opening time kept being pushed back 10-15 minutes. This as a result had many aircraft holding for around an hour before ultimately diverting, costing several thousands euro worth of fuel that probably could have been saved from being used.

*Would it have been quicker to clear RWY16 first? Hence resulting in less diversions and less holding time.

*Why did ATC encounter such difficulty in enquiring about the status of the runway?

*Is there an issue with communication between the station manager on the ground and ATC? When LVP's are coming into place ATC have no idea how long it will take for protocol to be put in place on the ground, and are only simply told when its all in place. Is there a lack of plans for these scenarios?

*After there brutal winter's of 2009-2010 and 2010-2011, what new protocol has been put into place for clearing snow and contaminents from the runway?

Keep in mind I mean no insult to the staff, my enquiries are mainly about protocol and communication.

Charles Babbage

Changed times infrastructure wise
http://www.rte.ie/archives/2017/0426/870470-dublin-airport-new-terminal/

Apologies if this was posted before, forum search suggests not.

Carawaystick

EchoIndia wrote: »

Unless anyone posting here has direct knowledge of what is involved and what was done on the night in question, I find it hard to see how they can judge whether a "good" or "not so good" job was done. Runway 10/28 and the main taxi routes and several parking stands had to be cleared. These are extensive areas when they are added up.

A Good or Bad job can easily be determined if you take the baseline of Helsinki Airport, which last closed in 2003 from winter weather. DAA obviously decided not to invest in staff and equipment to deal with winter weather

EchoIndia

Carawaystick wrote: »

A Good or Bad job can easily be determined if you take the baseline of Helsinki Airport, which last closed in 2003 from winter weather. DAA obviously decided not to invest in staff and equipment to deal with winter weather

Comparing Dublin with a Scandinavian country like Finland is nonsense. You would be investing in equipment and staffing that would see little, if any, use in an average Irish winter.

Hotblack Desiato

It's a lot easier to invest in measures to counteract winter weather when you predictably have it every year. To expect a country like our own to be able to deal with it like Scandinavia is unrealistic. We would not tolerate the extra costs in the public sector or in semi-private entities like DAA to have resources sitting idle for the odd occasion every few years when they might be needed.

George Sunsnow

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's a lot easier to invest in measures to counteract winter weather when you predictably have it every year. To expect a country like our own to be able to deal with it like Scandinavia is unrealistic. We would not tolerate the extra costs in the public sector or in semi-private entities like DAA to have resources sitting idle for the odd occasion every few years when they might be needed.

^^^

This

Plus the point I made on the weather forum
Icy winter airports like say HEL, KEF or DME have to have snow clearance teams every day in winter,each day gaining experience and maintaining efficiency
Dublin gets their weather in a blue moon
Ergo people there have to remember what they did 10 years ago and hurriedly gather people together most of whom might not have been there at all for the last episode
No comparison

Kournikova

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's a lot easier to invest in measures to counteract winter weather when you predictably have it every year. To expect a country like our own to be able to deal with it like Scandinavia is unrealistic. We would not tolerate the extra costs in the public sector or in semi-private entities like DAA to have resources sitting idle for the odd occasion every few years when they might be needed.

Exactly, if they invested in such resources I can imagine the Indo having a pop with the usual "semi state body wastes money on irrelevant resources - privatise now"

Idbatterim

surely they could make more money with another short term? many people will pay the premium, but not the premium that it is at the moment...

Tenzor07

moloner4 wrote: »

Work starting properly on new offices. Old aer lingus building gutted out.

Aye, the only building site with it's own airport!

MJohnston

moloner4 wrote: »

Work starting properly on new offices. Old aer lingus building gutted out.

Any ideas if that's the site for the new hotel at the background near the car park to terminal bridge?

Donegal Storm

The hotel isn't going ahead anymore apparently, everyone pulled out of the tender as finances didn't stack up

The site under construction is phase 1 of the Airport Central office park

Idbatterim

Donegal Storm wrote: »

The hotel isn't going ahead anymore apparently, everyone pulled out of the tender as finances didn't stack up

The site under construction is phase 1 of the Airport Central office park

yeah they are looking at other options for the airport hotel, it has not been abandoned. one directly connected into the terminal is so much more attractive than what is there at present...

Tenger

Idbatterim wrote: »

yeah they are looking at other options for the airport hotel, it has not been abandoned. one directly connected into the terminal is so much more attractive than what is there at present...

Planned location for the proposed hotel is between the short term car park and the glass bridge from T2 arrivals.

J.pilkington

Anyone know what the new little parking bay just before keelings is for? Has car parking spaces painted. Seems odd as it’s not replacing anything and it’s in the middle of nowhere. Struggle to see its purpose as the road is a mainly used by commuters and a little too far away from the airport for people waiting for flights to land to travel to.

They did lose the bottle bank lay-by further back which was popular for coaches / trucks but this area doesn’t accommodate any coaches / trucks

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/L3132,+Co.+Dublin/@53.4377486,-6.269771,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x48671183193d41f7:0x2d443f3c30577fb8

billie1b

J.pilkington wrote: »

Anyone know what the new little parking bay just before keelings is for? Has car parking spaces painted. Seems odd as it’s not replacing anything and it’s in the middle of nowhere. Struggle to see its purpose as the road is a mainly used by commuters and a little too far away from the airport for people waiting for flights to land to travel to.

They did lose the bottle bank lay-by further back which was popular for coaches / trucks but this area doesn’t accommodate any coaches / trucks

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/L3132,+Co.+Dublin/@53.4377486,-6.269771,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x48671183193d41f7:0x2d443f3c30577fb8

An official safe parking area for spotting for when the new runway opens, they built it while building the road to save on doing it later on in the build.

J.pilkington

billie1b wrote: »

An official safe parking area for spotting for when the new runway opens, they built it while building the road to save on doing it later on in the build.

Cheers, tbh i don’t think it’ll be big enough, not a huge amount of spaces there.

sdanseo

Question for those a little more knowledgeable.

The planning application for the runway states it will be 3,110m long but with what seems to be an additional 280 + 450m displaced thresholds. There was talk of adjusting the application to a 3,660m runway but this never happened.

Why not? Would a 3,600m runway not be more of an advantage than almost 700m of displacement which would only require further development down the line to be usable?

Was it to keep the neighbours happy?
Were they worried the entire application would be rejected, as opposed to getting it built and then later applying for a change of use?