Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture

dublinviking

Ezra can I ask you not to copy the whole chapters just so you can say things like:

No. Absolutely not. Cromlech comes from the welsh words crom and leach.

Why? Give me a reason why your explanation is better than mine? What do these two word mean?

On more constructive note, I just want to post this image, in order to explain why I believe that we can still find traces of old languages and cultures in modern languages and cultures. Hopefully the picture is worth thousand words, and will explain what I mean that roots are found in Serbian and why this is possible. Basically it all depends which languages were mixed to create which language. Serbian just so happened to be a mix of some really old languages. Pure luck really.



Nuclear family was the place where original language was created. This is also the place where language is learned.
As family grows, nuclear family becomes extended family, then clan, then tribe, then nation. All along the same language is used between members of the members of this growing family to keep communication going. Family is preserved through communication and cooperation and for that you need a common language.
If all these people are linked genetically, through father to son inheritance, I believe that we can talk about genetic languages. R1a languages, R1b languages, I2a languages...As genetic tribes mix, genetic languages mix...If genetic tribes disappear genetic language might disappear as well, unless it was passed onto in full or in part to some other genetic tribe. Today's languages are evolved mix of old languages. This is why we can find ancient language structures and words in modern languages. Serbian language is a mix of R1a, I2a, E1b, R1b...languages. Irish language is a mix of R1b, I2a, I1, R1a...languages. But Russian is a mix of R1a and N languages. Spanish is a mix of R1b, E1b...languages. Basque is pretty much pure R1b language. This is why we can find certain linguistic traits in Serbian and Irish but not in other Slavic languages or Atlantic (or as you know them Celtic) languages. Because both Serbian and Irish share I2a language traits not present in say Welsh. This is why certain words are found in some Germanic and Slavic languages but not in French or other Germanic languages. Because the languages who have these common characteristics share common R1a language...

ezra_pound

Just Google crom leach.

Or cromlech etymology.

ezra_pound

dublinviking wrote: »

Ezra can I ask you not to copy the whole chapters just so you can say things like:



Why? Give me a reason why your explanation is better than mine? What do these two word mean?

On more constructive note, I just want to post this image, in order to explain why I believe that we can still find traces of old languages and cultures in modern languages and cultures. Hopefully the picture is worth thousand words, and will explain what I mean that roots are found in Serbian and why this is possible. Basically it all depends which languages were mixed to create which language. Serbian just so happened to be a mix of some really old languages. Pure luck really.



Nuclear family was the place where original language was created. This is also the place where language is learned.
As family grows, nuclear family becomes extended family, then clan, then tribe, then nation. All along the same language is used between members of the members of this growing family to keep communication going. Family is preserved through communication and cooperation and for that you need a common language.
If all these people are linked genetically, through father to son inheritance, I believe that we can talk about genetic languages. R1a languages, R1b languages, I2a languages...As genetic tribes mix, genetic languages mix...If genetic tribes disappear genetic language might disappear as well, unless it was passed onto in full or in part to some other genetic tribe. Today's languages are evolved mix of old languages. This is why we can find ancient language structures and words in modern languages. Serbian language is a mix of R1a, I2a, E1b, R1b...languages. Irish language is a mix of R1b, I2a, I1, R1a...languages. But Russian is a mix of R1a and N languages. Spanish is a mix of R1b, E1b...languages. Basque is pretty much pure R1b language. This is why we can find certain linguistic traits in Serbian and Irish but not in other Slavic languages or Atlantic (or as you know them Celtic) languages. Because both Serbian and Irish share I2a language traits not present in say Welsh. This is why certain words are found in some Germanic and Slavic languages but not in French or other Germanic languages. Because the languages who have these common characteristics share common R1a language...

Interesting hypothesis.

I'm just not convinced. That's all.

dublinviking

Interesting hypothesis. I'm just not convinced. That's all.

Well investigate it and see for yourself.

c.1600, from Welsh, from crom, fem. of crwm "crooked, bent, concave" + llech "(flat) stone." Applied in Wales and Cornwall to what in Brittany is a dolmen; a cromlech there is a circle of standing stones.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cromlech

Cromlech is a Brythonic word (Breton/Cornish/Welsh) used to describe prehistoric megalithic structures, where crom means "bent" or "curved" and llech means "slab" or "flagstone".[1] The term is now virtually obsolete in archaeology, but remains in use as a colloquial term for two different types of megalithic monument.
In English it usually refers to dolmens, the remains of prehistoric stone chamber tombs.[2] However, it is widely used in French and Spanish to describe stone circles. Confusingly, some English-speaking archaeologists, such as Aubrey Burl, use this second meaning for cromlech in English too.[3]
In addition, the term is occasionally used to describe more complex examples of megalithic architecture, such as the Almendres Cromlech in Portugal.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromlech

The problem is that this does not explain why are things like this called cromlech:



Crom means "bent" or "curved" but in a sense of something crocked, not circular.

both cromlech and gromila describe pile of stones. gomila means pile, gromada means large stone. They are probably both linked to Crom dubh = Hromi daba = Grom Div. I don't see any problem here. I actually see a proof of special link between Brythonic cultures (Breton/Cornish/Welsh) and Serbian, which is not Indoeuropean, as we don't find these type of words in other European languages. If you bothered actually reading what i wrote carefully, you would have seen this:

So is this where word Cromlech comes from?

I am asking a question, calling for a discussion. Can you contribute?

dublinviking

Hi all

I have recently been engaged in a conversation with someone, and I tried to find and send him a a particular list of correlated Irish and Serbian words which I published on this thread. It took me 3 days to find them

So I decided to reorganize the content I published here in order to be able to search it and cross reference it easier. I started a multipage blog:

http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.ie/

I will first publish everything from this thread, fix the broken links and stuff like that. I am then going to reorganize the posts into pages, add dictionary page, documents page, links page...

I will continue publishing new posts here as well as I would like to keep this thread as a discussion thread, but my blog will contain expanded versions of the posts plus additional material.

dublinviking

This is a by product of my investigation of the old European languages. People interested in Linguistics might find this interesting.

Unified language theory

I am here going to explain my understanding of what language is, how it works, how it is created, how it evolves and how it disappears.

I believe that the existence of languages is intrinsically connected with the existence of life. I also believe that the creation, sharing, propagation, evolution, replacement, preservation of languages are all governed by the same small set of simple naturally occurring mechanisms and systems in all living organisms.

Abstract

Language is an algorithm created by a system perceiving the world around itself in order to extract the meaning from perceived sensory input data and create a reality. The systems involved in creation and use of languages are:

1. Sensory system which provides data in a shape of multidimensional change patterns. This is data creation system.
2. Cognitive system which interprets data patterns and stores "sensory pattern - meaning" key value pairs in memory. This is data translation and storing system.
3. Control feedback loop which compares multiple consecutive "sensory pattern - meaning" key value pairs and adjusts the translation algorithm until the comparison results start falling within a pre-set tolerance boundary, by enforcing the adjustment of the translation algorithm. The resulting stable unchanging translation algorithm which produces consistent results is a language. This is language creation and stabilization system.
Language quality and complexity depends on the quality and complexity of all three systems involved in the language creation. Languages are built from simple "sensory pattern - meaning" key value pairs which are assembled into complex "sensory pattern - meaning" matrices.

The most important system responsible for creation of languages is the control feedback loop.

This is a naturally occurring phenomenon in living systems and is responsible for creation and preservation of stable, biological systems thus making them "living" systems. Multiple control feedback loos exist in all living systems from viruses and bacteria to complex multi organism colonies. They regulate systems and keep them stable. But control feedback loop can only operate on the "sensory pattern - meaning" key value pairs, the language. This means that control feedback loop cannot exist without a language. This makes a language also a naturally occurring phenomenon, and probably the most important naturally occurring phenomenon in living systems. Without natural ability of living systems to create and use languages there would be no life. For biological systems to survive, they need to be able to make sense of the world around them, and of themselves, and for that purpose they create and use languages. That sense of the world around us is called "the reality". So we can say that without languages there would be no reality and no self.

In order for multiple living organisms to engage in information exchange, they need to be able to:

1. Create some kind of output which can be perceived by the other organism as a sensory input. Ability to create output which can be perceived as sensory input enables us to communicate with each other.
2. Translate the perceived sensory input coming from the other organism into meaning. Ability to translate the perceived sensory input coming from the other organism into meaning enables us to understand each other.
3. Imitate the sensory input to create the output which the other organism understands. Ability to imitate the sensory input coming from another organism enables us to converse. This ability is directly dependant on the quality of the input receiving (sensory) systems, output producing systems and their coordination. It is the different quality of these systems in different members of the same species, which causes the creation of different dialects and for instance sound changes in human spoken languages.
4. Synchronize language algorithms in order to ensure that both organisms produce identical "sensory pattern - meaning" key value pairs, meaning that they understand each other. This is achieved through the entanglement of the control feedback loops of both organisms. This process is called language synchronization and results in the creation of a common group language. Language synchronization starts by synchronizing the understanding of the simplest well known "sensory pattern - meaning" key value pairs. This is why the simplest natural sound blocks with their associated other sensory data, are the building blocks of human vocal languages for instance. These are the simplest well known "sensory pattern - meaning" key value pairs which can be used to synchronize our understanding of more complex "sensory pattern - meaning" key value pairs and complex "sensory pattern - meaning" matrices. Ability to synchronize individual languages enables us to form groups.

Because language is based on the perceived world, change in the perceived world can trigger the change in the language used to create new reality out of the changes in perceived world. Change in the environment, location, circumstances, population can all trigger individual language changes which will trigger group language synchronization changes. These changes are again controlled by the control feedback loop of each organism and the entangled control feedback loop of the group. All these control feedback loops work together to preserve a stable reality. If changes are small, control feedback loops will migrate the languages from a state which is not stable any more to another stable state. This process will result in language evolution. If the changes are severe population changes, this process can result in language replacement. The same control feedback loops will preserve the language if the perceived world does not change.

Details:

http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.ie/p/un.html

dublinviking

Hi all

I have added updated version of Cromlech, Dolmen, Crom, Hrom, Grom etymological discussion and the expanded discussion about the link between Crom Dubh Sunday, Lughnasad, St Ilios day and Perun day.

http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.ie/2014/04/cromlech-dolmen.html

Dr Strange

OK, dublinviking this is enough posting about your blog. You have already mentioned your blog in the last three posts and that should be more than enough.

I am thinking of locking this thread as there doesn't seem to be any further interaction between you and other posters, i.e. no other posters have posted in reply to your last posts.

Therefore, the discussion value of this thread has reduced very much and one thing I don't want this to become is a type of online soapbox. I will wait until tomorrow and see if there are any replies or anyone else who will pick up a discussion on this thread, if not, I am going to lock it.

dublinviking

Preusse, I did say that i was going to write new material here and that i am going to update existing material on my blog. I will continue writing new material here as soon as i have it. I don't know how I can make people reply. They are reading the thread as you can see from the read count.

Dr Strange

Yes, I can see that. The main problem why you don't get much replies may be that you are posting walls of text here, sometimes with links (or taken from) some other websites and it makes it very difficult for others to see what actual questions you have or what you want to discuss. I think that much smaller parts, maybe a maximum of two paragraphs or so with some pertinent questions at the end may elicit better responses. I am not sure if it will work but I do know that I will not be happy with further walls of text as updates and nobody else contributing. So, we see how it goes.

dublinviking

Ok, let's start with this.

Is this the oldest stone circle, not wood circle, in Europe? It was recently discovered in Bulgaria and it has been dated to 6000 bc. This places this stone circle at the same place and same time as Vinca civilization. Are Copper and Megaliths connected? Did ancient copper miners build megaliths?




6,000 B.C. - Sun Temple? / Bulgaria - "Bulgarian archaeologist Georgi Ganetsovski has made a new hit discovering by unearthing what might be the world's oldest sun temple. [NP] The team of Georgi Ganetsovski, an archaeologist from the Vratsa Regional History Museum, who specializes in paleolithic settlements, has uncovered a structure similar in function to the Stonehenge in the UK but is 3 000 years older than it. [NP] The 8000-year-old structure has been found near the village of Ohoden, Vratsa District, Northwestern Bulgaria. [....] Ganetsovski has been excavating the site near Ohoden for years, which is believed to harbor important remains from the first agricultural communities in Europe; over the summer he found an 8000-year-old skeleton of a young man dubbed by the media 'The First European.' [....]" [Based on: Archaeology News article (Bulgarian Archaeologist Discovers World's Likely Oldest Sun Temple) December 16, 2010]

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=123253

Tryballia

Hello from Serbia to all our Irish, Scottish and Welsh brothers, and great job dublinviking There is no doubt that we are the same people ie. that we have the same ancestors, and i believe that anyone who is slightly interested in this topic, whether Irish, Serbian, Scottish or Welsh, feel this strongly. We are the ancients and we recognize it in each other. There was so much propaganda against Serbs throughout history, that it's about time someone set the records straight Btw, Serbs are not a nation, Serbs are a race, that's another thing that's manipulated and hidden from mainstream historical data, and of course the biggest joke ever - that we came to Balkans in 7th century ) No, we've been here forever.

Tryballia

Btw, did any of you ever thought about the word "province"? What's the root of that word? The root is Vinca, so it is pro+Vinca = province (or provincija in Serbian), no surprise?

ezra_pound

Tryballia wrote: »

Btw, did any of you ever thought about the word "province"? What's the root of that word? The root is Vinca, so it is pro+Vinca = province (or provincija in Serbian), no surprise?

Etymology
From Middle English provynce, from Old French *province, from Latin prōvincia (“territory brought under Roman domination; official duty, office, charge, province”), from Proto-Indo-European *prōw- (“right judge, master”). Cognate with Gothic ð†ð‚ðŒ°ðŒ¿ðŒ¾ðŒ° (frauja, “lord, master”), Old English frēa (“ruler, lord, king, master”). See also frow.

Tryballia

And where do you think french province or latin provincia is coming from?

ezra_pound

Tryballia wrote: »

And where do you think french province or latin provincia is coming from?

from Proto-Indo-European *prōw- (“right judge, master”). Cognate with Gothic ð†ð‚ðŒ°ðŒ¿ðŒ¾ðŒ° (frauja, “lord, master”), Old English frēa (“ruler, lord, king, master”). See also frow.

Tryballia

It's obvious where Pro comes from, but it's also obvious for the other part of the word it is pro+vince, and when you take the meaning of the word province, and notion that Vinca was the first inhabited area in Europe, the first civilisation, it's all clear.

btw, there is another interesting Serbian word used in English "cruising" = kruzenje, kruziti in Serbian, and it has the same meaning.

Raphael37

dublinviking wrote: »

The father of the sacred fire, Agni, was named Tvastri, the divine carpenter. He made swastika the equipment for producing fire. Swastika consists of pramantha, the upper stick, the spindle, drill, and arani or under stick, the board. By rubbing pramantha against arani, the friction produces the heat and subsequently flame, divine Agni. Agni is born in a depression made at the intersection-point of two pieces of wood, which are orthogonal to each other.

s11.postimg.org/lt5zuj1ir/swastika.png

I specifically joined this forum to say thanks for the information you have provided specifically about the swastika.

I have added some of your work to what is being recovered by ME+me.

As these links are evidence of;
at37DOTwordpress.com/2012/02/23/windmills-swastikas-seeds/
at37DOTwordpress.com/2012/12/31/swastika-city-arkaim/

Our work seems to intersect in many respects.

Do you mind if I use your image?

As you can see I always provide links to my sources.

selah V

RaphaEL

Raphael37

dublinviking wrote: »

I then looked at the Ango – Saxon period and discovered that there was a significant West Slavic (Wendish) presence in the Angles alliance.

I am German
I married an Irish gal
2 kids later
It did not quite work out

later in life I started to dig deeper into ME+me roots and whoa look what I found

my last name is WEDEkiNd
WeDeN means VeDaS (nice link between Indo-Aryan)
WeNDiSH contains similar consonants.

I seem to be in the process of an archetypal MEME ME+me MEMorEE download, what if?
How else to explain it?

Being new I cannot provide direct links.
Go here;

at37DOTwordpress.com/?s=wedekind+widukind

just add the https:// to the beginning and replace DOT with a .

selah V