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Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach

    R1a (R-M420) didn't most likely arise in the Balkans like it's brother R1b it probably arose in central asia on the order of at least 18k years ago.

    Of course talking about clades so high up is useless as it's too long ago. For example here is a caldeogram from the R1a1a project on Familytreedna.


    That reflects the current understanding as of June this year.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound

    Look of course I'm aware that agni is the vedic god of fire. I'm pretty sure that I've referred to him earlier in this thread.

    There is an Irish cognate : aedh, the fire God. Aedh from the sane root as agni which completely dispels your theory.

    I never suggested that these fire ceremonies are Germanic.

    They are Indo European and predate Germanic. I am merely stating that to imply that the Germanic fire rituals are influenced by Slavs on such little evidence is ridiculous and a syndrome of the general train of your argument in this thread.

    Of course I'm well aware that Germany is full of slavic place names. Many of these are from the past thousand years of European geo politics and have no impact on Germanic mythology i.e. Norse mythology.

    To be honest I've decided to stop posting on this thread because it's not constructive.

    First you deny indo Europeans.
    Then you claim that they are essentially Slavs- apparently not only the ancestors of the Indo Europeans but also their true inheritors. And you make huge posts with a myriad of different points which makes it impossible to respond to any point clearly. To be honest your focus on a folk and race in all of this is slightly disturbing. It is preposterous to claim that any nation today can be equated with the Indo Europeans. Furthermore your efforts to claim inheritance rights to these people to a race or group of nations is reminiscent of Hitler and his similar efforts to claim that Germans were the true inheritors of the actual indo Europeans.

    As I've said already your ontology for posting here is to fit facts into your proposition rather than basing your proposition on facts. There really is no point in arguing with people like this-fundamentalists who are never going to abandon their basic dogmatic beliefs but rather deny or pervert any facts which contradict them.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    you said:
    R1a (R-M420) didn't most likely arise in the Balkans like it's brother R1b it probably arose in central asia on the order of at least 18k years ago.

    probably in response to
    What is interesting is that R1a haplogroup most likely evolved in the Balkans.

    Which is me quoting Eupedia who said:
    Some think it might have originated in the Balkans or around Pakistan and Northwest India, due to the greater genetic diversity found in these regions.

    So this is not something that I invented.

    But based on the fact that South Slavic dialects are the oldest and most Conservative Slavic dialects and based on what non Slavic and non Serbian linguists have said about Slavic languages being the closest to the Vedic Indo European language, and based on the fact that Vedas were brought to India from the west, i believe that the Balkans is more probable as the birth place of the R1a Indo European civilization than Pakistan. If you read what i wrote, i did say evolve, not arise. I also quoted Igor L. Rozhanskii, Anatole A. Klyosov and put in bold that the R1a came to Europe and did not arise in Europe:

    the most ancient R1a subclades (R1a1-M198- and R1a1a-M198+/M417-) bearers of which currently live in Europe (the present day haplotypes are scattered between England and the Balkans) appeared in Europe at least 7300 ybp, and possibly 9000 ybp.

    R1a existed before Indo European civilization and after.

    So I don't see what the problem is?

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Hi Ezra
    Look of course I'm aware that agni is the vedic god of fire. I'm pretty sure that I've referred to him earlier in this thread.

    No one is saying that you don't know who Agni is.
    There is an Irish cognate : aedh, the fire God. Aedh from the sane root as agni which completely dispels your theory.

    This just shows that you don't understand what i am saying about Agni. First aedh and agni, ogni are not one and the same. The only similarity between them is that they start with "a" and they are names of gods of fire. Otherwise they are completely different words structured in completely different ways. The main block of the name agni is consonant block gn which does not exist in aedh.
    But the most importantly aedh does not mean fire in Gaelic. Agni, Ogni, Ugni, is not just the name of the fire god, it is fire itself. Please read what Agni actually represents in Vedic religion. In all R1a languages agni means fire except in Hittite for which i am not sure:

    Latgalian: guņs
    Latvian: uguns
    Lithuanian: ugnis
    Old Prussian: ugnis
    Samogitian: ognis
    Slavic: *ognь

    Indo-Iranian: *Hagnis


    Sanskrit: अग्नि (agní)
    Bengali: আগুন (agun), অগ্নি (ôgni)
    Hindi: आग (āg), अग्नि (agní)
    Nepali: आगो (Āgō), अग्नि (agni)
    Romani: jag
    Urdu: آگ (āg), اگنی (agní)

    Italic:Latin: ignis (but no any other italic language. Strange and telling of the balkan influence on Latin). By the way english ignite is a borrowing from latin and this is why it is not listed here.

    Hittite: (akniš, “name of a deity”) (could be inherited, borrowed from Indo-Iranian, or unrelated)

    As i said, only people in whose language agni means fire would name fire god, the fire itself, agni. In Irish word for fire is tine so the god of fire, if there was such deity would be tine. Is there such a deity in the Irish mythology? Aedh, as god of fire could be later borrowing from some other language, as Aedh lacks the meaning of fire in Irish.
    I never suggested that these fire ceremonies are Germanic.

    This is what you said:
    It is incorrect to assume that Germanic practices and customs related to the need fire are of Slavic origin. The mythology surrounding need fires is in all Germanic cultures including Norse mythology and the Freya/fro goddess. There are historical records of need fires in Sweden.

    I am trying to prove here that the only way these practices could have entered the "Germanic" culture is through the contact with the R1a population which has been living east of Lowlands all the way to India since at least the Corded ware culture. R1a people (not just Slavic) are the only ones which have agni as word for fire. As the live fire practices are linked to Agni, i assume, maybe wrongly, that they have entered Western Europe from the East with R1a, the same people who use agni as word for fire. R1a according to dubhthach's diagram have been in central Europe since 3500 BC, and did not move from there since. So they had plenty of time to influence all the non R1a popularions (including R1b) with which it came into contact within next 5000 years, and pass onto them the Agni cult. This doesn't mean that the fire cults started with R1a people. They are a lot older and probably come from Vinca. Vinca people were smelting metal at 5000 BC. To smelt metal you need sophisticating knowledge of fire creation and maintenance. This predates any Indo European culture by 2000 years. Even the symbols for fire from Vedas are found in Vinca. I will talk about it more in my next post.
    They are Indo European and predate Germanic. I am merely stating that to imply that the Germanic fire rituals are influenced by Slavs on such little evidence is ridiculous...

    They are Indo European. The question is who are Indo Europeans, and are R1b Indo Europeans. It is not me who said:
    "R1a is thought to have been the dominant haplogroup among the northern and eastern Indo-European speakers who evolved into the Indo-Iranian, Mycenaean Greek, Thracian, Baltic and Slavic branches."

    This is quote from Eupedia. It is also not my fault that these are the only people who use agni as word for fire. And it is not my fault that Slavs and Balts, and not Germans are the only European "Indo Europeans" who preserved this word in their languages.
    Of course I'm well aware that Germany is full of slavic place names. Many of these are from the past thousand years of European geo politics and have no impact on Germanic mythology i.e. Norse mythology.

    This just shows how little you know about Central European history. In the 5th century central Europe, including Germany, Austria, Switzerland was almost exclusively Slavic. Look up any history book. The same language was spoken from Balkan to Baltic. Since then the the number of Slavs in Central Europe has been steadily decreasing. So you can not say that most of the places with Slavic place names have been built in last thousands years.
    To be honest I've decided to stop posting on this thread because it's not constructive.

    I will be sorry to see you leave. I need someone who can challenge my views. This was the whole point of me posting my notes here. If i didn't want anyone to challenge my views i could just have published everything on a blog.

    As i said i welcome comments and expect people to disagree with me, but i don't understand comments like this:
    First you deny indo Europeans.

    Where did i do that?
    Then you claim that Indo Europeans are essentially Slavs

    This is not true on so many levels. First it was not me who said it it was Eupedia, and second they said that:
    R1a is thought to have been the dominant haplogroup among the northern and eastern Indo-European speakers who evolved into the Indo-Iranian, Mycenaean Greek, Thracian, Baltic and Slavic branches.

    You also said that i claim that Slavs are:
    apparently not only the ancestors of the Indo Europeans but also their true inheritors.

    Slavs are, with other R1a people, the direct ancestors of Indo Europeans. It was not me, but a bunch of western European, non Slavic linguists who said that Slavic languages are the closest to the original Indo European language. I am just quoting what they said. And the reason why i am saying this is to point to the fact that we have, in south Slavic languages, and in south Slavic culture, an excellent tool for investigating Indo European language and culture. The fact that south Slavic languages are the most conservative Indo European languages does not make them better or worse than anyone else. These are just facts. If you are getting angry about the facts you should not be involved in historical research.
    And you make huge posts with a myriad of different points which makes it impossible to respond to any point clearly.

    Sorry about this. I am just trying to document my claims as well as i can.
    To be honest your focus on a folk and race in all of this is slightly disturbing.

    Folklore and language are the only repositories which preserved the original, old culture that i am looking for. I use genetics only when it is blatantly obvious what it is showing us, and there is no chance that it would change to contradict itself with new research. The fact that most ancient DNA found so far between Europe and India is R1a and that today most of modern DNA between Europe and India is R1a suggests that we are talking about solid, unbroken, geographic, linguistic, cultural and genetic territory spanning the time from 4th millennium BC to today. This is the exact same territory which was supposed to give birth to Indo Europeans. This is also the same territory which was the land of Scythians who are said to be the ancestors of the Slavs. Again these are the facts. This doesn't make R1a people better or worse than the other.
    It is preposterous to claim that any nation today can be equated with the Indo Europeans.

    Again not a nation but genetic type, which today spans many nations and cultures in Eurasia.
    Furthermore your efforts to claim inheritance rights to these people to a race or group of nations is reminiscent of Hitler and his similar efforts to claim that Germans were the true inheritors of the actual indo Europeans.

    I am not claiming any "inheritance rights" for anybody. You are completely wrong. I am pointing at facts and tools. You can use them or ignore them, it is your choice. It is funny that you mention Hitler: person who belonged to a totally non Indo European genetic group (Hitler belonged to Near-Eastern Y-haplogroup E1b1b), managed to turn one Indo European group (Nordics and Germanics) against the other (Slavs) causing deaths of millions of Indo European descendants. I would have actually been funny if it wasn't tragic. This has been happening in Europe since Roman times: Divide the Indo Europeans and Conquer them by using one against the other.
    The attitude Hitler had towards the Slavs was: untermensch who did not contribute anything to the European civilization bla bla bla....Even today any mention of Slavs actually being originator of anything in European history is considered preposterous, as we know they are barbarians who crawled out of swamps and destroyed Europe. When someone tries to prove that this is actually not true, and that Slavs were actually important member of the Indo European family, this is labeled racism. You are showing the same attitude.

    Can we stop this nonsense please. We can all learn a lot if we stop sticking to old prejudices.
    As I've said already your ontology for posting here is to fit facts into your proposition rather than basing your proposition on facts. There really is no point in arguing with people like this-fundamentalists who are never going to abandon their basic dogmatic beliefs but rather deny or pervert any facts which contradict them.

    I am not a dogmatic or fundamentalist what ever that means. I am an investigator. I spent a lot of time in science and the way science works is this:

    1. you do a lot of research in some field
    2. you discover some interesting correlation between some facts
    3. based on that correlation you form an idea (a theory) which tries to explain the observed correlation
    4. you do lots more research to see if there are other facts that support your theory
    5. you read a lot of other researcher's works to see if anyone else had the same theory or if someone actually managed to disprove it
    6. if you can't find anything that can disprove your theory you publish it. this makes it widely available to potential critics, and supporters.
    7. you also publish all the available data that you have which can support your theory. You also continue to collect the data that supports your theory and continue to publish it
    2. you argue your case, and try to defend your theory. Your critics attack your theory and try to disprove it using fact not shouting.

    Which is what you seem to have problem with. You would like me to abandon my theory just because you or someone else don't agree with it. Science would not advance much if that was the attitude of scientists....

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound

    Aodh is an old Irish word for fire.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Aodh is an old Irish word for fire.

    Thank you ezra. so Aodh fire - Aodh - fire god (fire personified). I should have checked it.

    So can you see what i mean when i say that people give the name to fire gods that means fire in their own language, and why i say that Agni is R1a invention?

    I do think however that tine is older than aodh and that aodh could still be borrowing from the east.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Let me just clarify why i think tine (tinja in Serbian) is older word then ognji. In Serbian both tinja and ognji are verbs. Tinja is an action of a first tiny flame which has just been kindled. Ognji is the action of a big massive strong fire. It is more likely that the first weak fire was called tinja then ognji.

    I will continue with my talk about fire with these words from the old Irish dictionary and I will give equivalent Serbian words. The source for the Irish words is here:

    Irish: "gorn" - fire. Serbian: gori - burns, Russian: gorn - fireplace, hearth
    Irish: "crínach" - firewood. Serbian: granje - branches, firewood
    Irish: "crann" tree. Serbian: grana - branch. Tree is just a bunch of branches
    Irish: lommán (lomm) - tree(or branch) stripped of its bark and/or leaves and /or twigs. Serbian: lomiti - to break, to break off, to strip off, loman, lomen -tree(or branch) stripped of its bark and/or leaves and /or twigs
    Irish: cepp (a) - tree-stump, cut down tree. Serbian: cepa, cepati - to split by cutting. cepanica, cepka - a log
    Irish: cleth - tree, tree-trunk. Serbian: klada - tree trunk
    Irish: commaidm (maidm) - break. Serbian: komad - part, bit, piece, komadati - to break, to split into bits

    It is very interesting that a lot of these words have verb root in Serbian.

    Question: how did all these Slavic words end up in Irish?

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound

    Let me just clarify why i think tine (tinja in Serbian) is older word then ognji. In Serbian both tinja and ognji are verbs. Tinja is an action of a first tiny flame which has just been kindled. Ognji is the action of a big massive strong fire. It is more likely that the first weak fire was called tinja then ognji.

    I will continue with my talk about fire with these words from the old Irish dictionary and I will give equivalent Serbian words. The source for the Irish words is here:

    Irish: "gorn" - fire. Serbian: gori - burns, Russian: gorn - fireplace, hearth
    Irish: "crínach" - firewood. Serbian: granje - branches, firewood
    Irish: "crann" tree. Serbian: grana - branch. Tree is just a bunch of branches
    Irish: lommán (lomm) - tree(or branch) stripped of its bark and/or leaves and /or twigs. Serbian: lomiti - to break, to break off, to strip off, loman, lomen -tree(or branch) stripped of its bark and/or leaves and /or twigs
    Irish: cepp (a) - tree-stump, cut down tree. Serbian: cepa, cepati - to split by cutting. cepanica, cepka - a log
    Irish: cleth - tree, tree-trunk. Serbian: klada - tree trunk
    Irish: commaidm (maidm) - break. Serbian: komad - part, bit, piece, komadati - to break, to split into bits

    It is very interesting that a lot of these words have verb root in Serbian.

    Question: how did all these Slavic words end up in Irish?

    Answer: because they're all indo European words.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Answer: because they're all indo European words.

    Have you checked other European languages for these words? You will find them in Slavic languages. And Irish.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    In Serbian, "Var", "Vur" means fire, to heat to boil to melt. "Varnica" means spark, "Variti" means to heat up, to cook. "Varivo" is cooked food. "Varenik" is a earthen dish used for cooking. "Varjača" is a wooden spoon used for mixing food while it is cooking. "Variti" means to digest.

    vrteti - to spin
    vrtilo, vratilo - shaft
    vreteno - spindle
    vrcati - to extract by spinning, like butter or honey
    vrca - rope

    trljati - to rub
    trati - to rub
    trenje - friction
    trzati, trgati - to pull with a sudden jerky movement, like pulling a rope that sipns the vrtilo in a fire kindling cerremony.

    The word vatra comes from vrtr = vrt + tr = vrteti + trljati = to spin + to rub = to make fire by rubbing one piece of wood against another. Another possible etymology is vrtr = vr + tr = var + trljati = to make fire by rubbing one piece of wood against another. So this word not only has full Serbian etymology, but it contains in itself the description of the oldsest way of making fire.

    Have a look at these words meaning furnace:
    Africaans: fornace
    Albanian: furrën
    Arabic: furna
    Catalan: forn
    Dutch: furnace
    English: furnace
    French: four
    Galician: forno
    Greek: foúrnos
    Italian: fornace
    Latin: fornax
    Portuguese: forno
    Spanish: horno
    Turkish: fırın
    Welsh: ffwrnais
    Irish: foirnéise

    Serbian: peć (furuna, vuruna)
    Bosnian: peć (furuna, vuruna)
    Croatian: peć (furuna, vuruna)

    Belorussian: печ (petch)
    Bulgarian: пещ
    Czech: pec
    Macedonian: печка
    Polish: piec
    Russian: печь
    Slovak: pec
    Slovenian: peč
    Ukrainian: піч

    Danish: ovn
    German: Ofen
    Icelandic: ofni
    Norwegian: ovn
    Swedish: ugn

    Bengali: Culli
    Estonian: ahi
    Finnish: tulipesä
    Gujarati: Bhaṭhṭhī
    Hindi: Bhaṭṭhī
    Hungarian: kemence
    Latvian: krāsns
    Lithuanian: krosnis
    Romanian: cuptor

    In Serbian word "vuruna", "furuna", Vurnja means furnace.

    Here is a picture of vuruna, vurnja:


    The word comes from vur, var + u + nj = fire + in + it = furnace.

    Vurati means to put wood into the fire.
    We have the word Varuna from a root which means to surround, cover or pervade.

    So in Serbian vuruna actually means that which contains, surrounds the fire. Do we have this kind of etymology for furnace in any other European language?
    In Vedic religion, Varuna (Sanskrit Varuṇa वरुण, Malay: Baruna) or Waruna, is a god of the water and of the celestial ocean, as well as a god of law of the under water world....As chief of the Adityas, Varuna has aspects of a solar deity though, when opposed to Mitra (Vedic term for Surya), he is rather associated with the night, and Mitra with the daylight.... Varuna and Mitra are the gods of the societal affairs including the oath, and are often twinned Mitra-Varuna (a dvandva compound)....

    Varuna is the home of the fire on earth, the vuruna, the fire hearth, the furnace, where sun's fire burns during the night and gives us night light. Mitra is the actual Sun, the home of the fire in the sky, that shines during the day and gives us day light.
    Mitra and Varuna are two deities (devas) frequently referred to in the ancient Indian scripture of the Rigveda. They are both considered Adityas, or deities connected with the Sun;

    So Mitra and Varuna are two holders, two homes of fire Agni, two furnaces, the celestial furnace (the sun) and terrestrial furnace (the hearth).

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound

    Have you checked other European languages for these words? You will find them in Slavic languages. And Irish.

    Hi Dub Vik,

    I'm taking up this challenge, which I'm finding a bit beyond my abilities but I will report back. So far I am having trouble tracing where crann comes from beyond it's proto celtic root but Germanic languages also have a similar word to it for branch - just like Slavic languages.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound

    Varuna is the home of the fire on earth, the vuruna, the fire hearth, the furnace, where sun's fire burns during the night and gives us night light. Mitra is the actual Sun, the home of the fire in the sky, that shines during the day and gives us day light.

    So Mitra and Varuna are two holders, two homes of fire Agni, two furnaces, the celestial furnace (the sun) and terrestrial furnace (the hearth).

    Remember that Varuna is Water 'Shaman' God - quite the opposite of the qualities of the sun and its fire. I respect the fact that they are both associated with the sun in some way as Adityas but I think that this has more to do with defining them as the highest tier of deity rather than actually taking on any aspect of a sun God. Perhaps this is less true for Mitra who as sky God can understandably take on some aspects of the sun, but for Varuna I am almost sure.

    Remember that Varuna is defined by the element of water, Mitra the element of air, and the sun God Surya, who is a function three God (rather than function 1) by fire, as is of course Agni (function 1). As a God characterised by the element of water he is not 'terrestrial' either.

    If what I'm saying doesn't really make sense then it will if you take a look at this book:

    I'm pretty sure you'll find it very useful. :)

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound

    ezra_pound wrote: »
    Remember that Varuna is Water 'Shaman' God - quite the opposite of the qualities of the sun and its fire. I respect the fact that they are both associated with the sun in some way as Adityas but I think that this has more to do with defining them as the highest tier of deity rather than actually taking on any aspect of a sun God. Perhaps this is less true for Mitra who as sky God can understandably take on some aspects of the sun, but for Varuna I am almost sure.

    Remember that Varuna is defined by the element of water, Mitra the element of air, and the sun God Surya, who is a function three God (rather than function 1) by fire, as is of course Agni (function 1). As a God characterised by the element of water he is not 'terrestrial' either.

    If what I'm saying doesn't really make sense then it will if you take a look at this book:

    I'm pretty sure you'll find it very useful. :)

    Hmmm... Maybe I should back track a bit. It looks s if it is likely that the Celtic equivalent of varuna is God of hearths ... Which indicates that you're probably on to something there alright.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Ezra thank you very very much for helping me. I can see that you care, and i can see that you know a lot. The fact that you question everything i say is great as i need reality check from time to time as everyone else. :) Plus you know things that i don't so we can cross reference things which always brings up something new and exciting.

    I can see that no one noticed how we have complete separation between the Agni and Fire people:

    agni people:

    fire people:

    I find this very interesting.

    I can also see that no one answered my question about whether word for furnace means "fire in it, fire within" in any other language that has furnace cognate except Serbian. Let me answer this myself. Here is the list of languages with their words for fire, furnace and in (within):

    Africaans: vuur; fornace; in
    Albanian: zjarr; furrën; ën
    Arabic: hariak; furna; fi
    Catalan: foc; forn; en
    Dutch: vur; brand; furnace in
    English: fire; furnace; in
    French: feu; four; dans
    Galician: lume, fogo; forno; en
    Greek: fotia; foúrnos; entós, se
    Italian: fuoco; fornace; dentro, ne, in
    Latin: ignis; fornax; intra, in
    Portuguese: fogo, incendio; forno; dentro, em
    Spanish: fuego, incendio; horno; dentro en
    Turkish: yangın, ates; fırın; içinde
    Welsh: tân, dan; ffwrnais; mewn, yn
    Irish: tine; foirnéise; laistigh de, i

    You can see that there is a mismatch between words for fire, furnace and within, in. You get the same mismatch if you look at the word for hearth and compare it with words for fire which are cognate of fire. The only language where vuruna, varuna, vurunj, vurnja, furnace actually means fire within is Serbo Croatian (South Slavic)

    var, vur; vuruna, vurunj, vurnja; u nj

    Did we here discover a pre Indo European, old Europe, Vinca word cluster, which spread from the Balkans with the Vinca people all the way to India, and which was preserved in Serbian?

    I believe we did. And it would be strange if we did not find the old Vinca in the words related to fire. These guys were smelting metal when everyone else was walking around with clubs and stones. 2000 years before anyone else did it. in 6th millennium BC, Serbia must have looked like Mordor :) to everyone else. Like the land of fire. Just imagine coming from anywhere else and seeing smelting furnaces blazing, smoke gushing, sparks flying everywhere, molten metal pouring out.
    This was the place of gods. Fire gods. Agni, Vuruna.

    If we look at the life of fire as it is described in Serbian, we notice something interesting:

    1. kindling = vrtr, vatra (main word for fire in Serbian) - combination of two verbs in Serbian meaning spin and rub perfectly describing the oldest way of creating heat needed for making fire
    2. catching first flame = tinja (tine Irish word for fire, probably pre indo european and probably also coming from vinca) - verb in Serbian meaning to smolder, to catch fire on tinder
    3. making the flame bigger, smoldering becomes flame = pir, piriti, raspiriti (the word for fire in lots of languages) - onomatopoeic verb in Serbian meaning to blow into the smoldering ashes to make them into a flame. the sound of blowing "pfffffffffffffiiiiii"
    4. adding branches to make fire stronger = grana - branch, gori - burns, gore - up, goreti - to burn, to go up, gorion, gorionik - hearth (Irish word for fire gord and heat gorad (vn. of guirid, goirid))
    5. adding logs to make fire last = var, vur, vuriti (the word for stable fire which is now burning logs) - verb in Serbian meaning to ad wood to fire. this is the useful fire and it burns in vuruna. var means to heat, to cook, to burn
    6. making fire really strong, like for smelting of funerals and celebrations = ognji (the "Indo European" R1a word for fire) - verb in Serbian meaning roars, burns strongly
    7. fire is dying. what is left are hot coals = žari, zari (root word for Ožaris, Ozaris, the shining one) - Serbian verb for shining with heat

    All these various words for fire in various languages are verbs describing various stages of the life of fire in Serbian.

    If you add to this all the words describing kindling of fire using fire steels and all the other words that are related to fire making and using which we have just started to uncover, and we have a huge connected word cluster which you can find scattered all over the "Indo European" world, but which you can find complete only in South Slavic languages.

    This, I believe is very very interesting.

    I told you before that Serbian language and culture are very conservative. Village life in Serbia did not change since Vinca time till late 20th century. Most of the implements, tools, furniture, vehicles, clothes found in Vinca archaeological sites, i used or saw being used in my grandparents village when i was a kid in the 70s. And they are still being used. What works, gets used until something better (more practical and cost effective) comes along. The same goes for fire use.

    This is vurunj, bread oven, pizza (pita, pitha) oven used in Serbia today. By the way she is actually dressed like vinca woman as well:


    Here is the same oven from Vinca:



    In my experience, if the implement stays the same, the name stays the same. So here we are looking at Vinca bread oven , still used by vinca descendants who still live in the same place (Serbia) 7000 years later, they use it for the exactly the same purpose and in the exactly same way, and they still use the same word for it vuruna, vurunj.

    I think we have arrived, don't you think?

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Do you remember the burning bush, into which god descended? Interestingly in Serbian the expression for "bush" is "grm" which is very close to "grom" which means thunder (in Serbian thunder is the actual lightning as well as the sound). Was the burning bush on mount horeb (gorev???) actually burning lighting coming up from the ground in the shape of the bush?

    Is this the burning bush of Moses:

    Upward ground-to-cloud lighting


    or this:


    In Slavic folklore, the Firebird (Russian: жар-пти́ца, zhar-ptitsa, Ukrainian: жар-пти́ця, zhar-ptica, Serbian: жар-птица, zhar-ptitsa, Polish: Żar ptak, literally heat bird from птица bird Russian жар heat, Czech: pták Ohnivák, Slovak: Vták Ohnivák) is a magical glowing bird from a faraway land, which is both a blessing and a bringer of doom to its captor.
    The Firebird is described as a large bird with majestic plumage that glows brightly emitting red, orange, and yellow light, like a bonfire that is just past the turbulent flame. The feathers do not cease glowing if removed, and one feather can light a large room if not concealed. In later iconography, the form of the Firebird is usually that of a smallish fire-colored peacock, complete with a crest on its head and tail feathers with glowing "eyes".

    A typical role of the Firebird in fairy tales is as an object of a difficult quest. The quest is usually initiated by finding a lost tail feather, at which point the hero sets out to find and capture the live bird, sometimes of his own accord, but usually on the bidding of a father or king.

    The fire bird story is an amazing description of the man's quest for fire before people invented the way to produce it themselves. Fire bird represents the fire in the sky, the fire in the clouds, the electricity, the lighting that flickers and flashes in the clouds during storms. Sometimes the fire bird flies down from the clouds to nest. This is a lightning striking the ground. The nesting fire bird is a burning bush of a tree struck by a lightning. What is left after the fire bird ascends back to heaven are a few or just one of her feathers, magic feathers which can light up the whole room. These are smoldering branches left after the tree or bush has burnt down. Our hero would then go in search for the fire bird, the next place where lightning would strike the ground and set a tree or a bush on fire. You can imagine how difficult that quest was. The name fire bird in Slavic languages is žar ptica (pronounced: zhar-ptitsa). The name for spark, burning ember in Serbian and other South Slavic languages is žeravica (pronounced: zheravitsa). This word is very close to zharptitsa (amber bird) and could have been easily misheard and mispronounced by the eastern Slavs who don't have word žeravica. This points to the Balkans, Serbia as the potential origin of the fire bird myth. The original story was probably about finding žeravica (burning amber). From the Balkans the myth probably went east and then came back as žar ptica (fire bird) myth. Again, knowing the history of fire in Serbia, not surprising.

    What is interesting is that this story is present in every Slavic nation (Remember R1a Indo European people) but similar stories, with almost identical plot, managed to crop up in Germany, Sweden, Belgium and Ireland.

    Ezra is going to love this. :)

    The original story is Slavic (R1a). The reason why i believe it is Slavic story is that it contains at it's core three typical R1a archetypes: The fire bird, the golden apples and the quest by three brothers where the youngest brother succeeds.

    The first R1a (Slavic, Skythian, Indo European...) archetype is a fire bird. A fire bird can also be found in the legend of Phoenix, but Phoenix does not have the same properties as the Slavic fire bird, the ability to light in the darkness.


    Phoenix is different and represents cyclical the renewal of the sun:
    In Greek mythology, a phoenix or phenix (Ancient Greek φοίνιξ phóinīx) is a long-lived bird that is cyclically regenerated or reborn. Associated with the sun, a phoenix obtains new life by arising from the ashes of its predecessor. The phoenix was subsequently adopted as a symbol in Early Christianity....Scholars have observed analogues to the phoenix in a variety of cultures. These analogues include the Persian anka, the Hindu garuda and Gandaberunda, the Russian firebird, the Persian simorgh, the Turkish kerkes, the Tibetan Me byi karmo, the Chinese fenghuang, and the Japanese hō-ō.[6]

    Never the less Phoenix story is very interesting in Itself and is very much linked to our story of Agni, the fire in three shapes: the sun, the thunder and hearth.

    The second R1a (Slavic, Skythian, Indo European...) archetype are golden apples. You can find golden apples in Greek legend "The Garden of the Hesperides" where we also have a quest, but not by three brothers and no fire bird:
    The Garden of the Hesperides, Atlas' daughters, was Hera's orchard in the far western corner of the world, where either a single tree or a grove of trees bearing immortality-giving golden apples grew. Hera placed in the garden a never-sleeping, hundred-headed dragon (named Ladon) as an additional safeguard. The 11th Labor of Hercules was to steal the golden apples from the garden. He stole the apples by asking Atlas to steal the apples and in return he would hold up the sky for him. After Atlas picked the apples Hercules asked Atlas to hold up the sky for him while he made a pad of the lion skin. He never took back his job of holding up the sky and ran away.


    Please note that the golden apple tree is an Oak and that it has a snake crawling up it's trunk, the symbol of the tree of light which is always linked to the sun and fire. But the tree belongs to Titans, the giants, the people living up north, not Greeks.

    You can also find golden apples linked to the thunder in Norse mythology, where the golden apples are the source of the gods' immortality and perpetual youth;
    In the book Skáldskaparmál, Iðunn is mentioned in its first chapter (numbered as 55) as one of eight ásynjur (goddesses) sitting in their thrones at a banquet in Asgard for Ægir.[1] In chapter 56, Bragi tells Ægir about Iðunn's abduction by the jötunn Þjazi. Bragi says that after hitting an eagle (Þjazi in disguise) with a pole, Loki finds himself stuck to the bird, and being pulled further and further into the sky, his feet banging against stones, gravel, and trees, and he felt his arms might be pulled out from his shoulders. Loki shouted and begged the eagle for a truce, and the eagle responds that Loki would only be freed if he made a solemn vow to have Iðunn come outside of Asgard with her apples. Loki accepts and returns to his friends Odin and Hœnir. At the time the Þjazi and Loki agreed on, Loki lures Iðunn out of Asgard into "a certain forest", telling her that he had discovered some apples that she would find worth keeping, and told Iðunn that she ought to bring her apples with her so that she may compare them with the apples Loki discovered. Þjazi arrives in eagle shape, snatches Iðunn, flies away with her, and takes her to his home, Þrymheimr.[2]
    In Norse mythology, Þjazi (anglicized as Thiazi, Thjazi, Tjasse or Thiassi) was a giant (jötunn) and he lives in Þrymheimr.

    In Norse mythology, Þrymheimr (Old Norse "crash-home,"[1] "Thunder Home,"[2] or "noisy-home"[3]) was the abode of Þjazi, a jötunn, located in Jötunheimr.
    The jötnar (anglicized jotunn or jotun, plural jötnar; /ˈjoʊtən/, /ˈjoʊtʊn/, or /ˈjɔːtʊn/; Icelandic: [ˈjœːtʏn]; from Old Norse jǫtunn /ˈjɔtunː/; often glossed as giant or ettin) can be seen throughout Norse mythology. The Jötnar are a mythological race that live in Jötunheimr, one of the nine worlds of Norse cosmology, separated from Midgard, the world of humans. They were banished there by the Æsir who refuse them entry to their world, Asgard. The Jötnar frequently interact with the Æsir, as well as the Vanir. They are usually in opposition to, or in competition with, them but also interact with them in a non-hostile manner. Some Jötnar even intermarry with the Æsir and Vanir. This very complex relationship between these two comparable races develops most notably in the Prose Edda and the Poetic Edda.

    So again we have giant of the race alien and opposed to the Norse, who lives in a thunder house, wants golden apples, turns into eagle (symbol of sun and thunder, but not a fire bird). We also don't have three brothers going on a quest. This is again obviously foreign and not Norse story adopted by the Norse.

    However the most important proof that golden apples are R1a (Slavic, Skythian, Indo European...) archetype is this:
    In Slavic mythology, Perun (Cyrillic: Перун) is the highest god of the pantheon and the god of thunder and lightning. His other attributes were fire, mountains, the oak, iris, eagle, firmament (in Indo-European languages, this was joined with the notion of the sky of stone), horses and carts, weapons (the hammer, axe (Axe of Perun), and arrow), and war. He was first associated with weapons made of stone and later with those of metal....

    In the classification scheme of Georges Dumézil, Perun was the god of the second function (physical and military power), a god of war, and as such, he was armed with several fantastic weapons. Perun's lightning bolts were believed to be stones and stone arrows. According to folk beliefs, fulgurites and belemnites and sometimes even the remains of prehistoric stone tools found in the ground are remains of these weapons. Various Slavic countries also call these deposits "Perun's stones", "thunderbolt stones", "thunderbolt wedges" and "Perun's arrow"; other unrelated names for these include "devil's finger", "God's finger", and "Mother of God finger", and in Lithuania, "Berkun's finger". These thunderbolt stones were sometimes said to be transferred back to the sky by the wind after being under earth for a period of seven years. The weapons of Perun protected against bad luck, evil magic, disease, and – naturally enough – lightning itself.
    Perun also had another type of weapon in his arsenal, as destructive as his firestone arrows, but even more unusual: mythical golden apples. While this may not seem to be much of a weapon, in many Slavic folk accounts, the golden apple appears as a talisman of ultimate destruction. An example from a folk song from Montenegro[citation needed] with strong mythical elements relates:

    "...He grabbed three golden apples
    And threw them high into the sky...
    ...Three lightning bolts burst from the sky,
    One struck at two young grooms,
    Another struck at pasha on a horse,
    The third one struck six hundred wedding guests,
    Not an eyewitness left
    Not even to say, how they died."

    It is conjectured that the mythical golden apples of Perun were symbols of a rare but notorious form of atmospheric discharge, ball lightning. The same is probably true for the thunder marks of East Slavic folklore.

    Gromoviti znaci or thunder marks such as these are ancient symbols of Perun, which are often engraved upon roof beams of village houses, particularly in Eastern Slavic populations, to protect them from lightning bolts. It is conjectured their circular shape symbolises ball lightning.

    I remember ball lightning being quite common in Serbia when i was a kid and teenager. One actually went through a wall of house in my neighborhood and blew up half of the house during a storm.

    Here are some Slavic thunder signs, symbol of god Perun:


    Perun, the Slavic god of thunder, is the only one who uses golden apples as weapons and they upon hitting the earth produce thunder and lightning. Perun is sometimes pronounced as Pierun or Pirun which links him with Pir Fir fire.

    The third R1a (Slavic, Skythian, Indo European...) archetype is the quest by three brothers where the youngest brother, the youngest son turns out to be the bravest, the most noble, the smartest. He fulfills the quest and inherits the kingdom. The myth where youngest son inherits the kingdom are in greek mythology linked with titans, the northerners.

    Uranus gets overthrown by his youngest son Cronos.

    Cronos gets overthrown by his youngest son Zeus.

    The Junior Right inheritance, as the inheritance of the estate by the youngest son, is typical Slavic custom, in complete opposite to the usual inheritance rules of classical and western Europe, which say that either each of the sons receives equal portion of the estate or the oldest son gets everything. The presence of the junior Right inheritance is therefore taken of a sign of the presence of a Slavic population in the area. And guess where we find this custom:
    If a man owning houses or tenements within the city of Gloucester dies intestate, up to very recently his youngest son, and not the eldest, succeeds to the property. This was a remarkable survival, and a similar custom formerly prevailed, in Leeds, Derby, Leicester, Nottingham, Stafford, and Stamford.(5) It prevailed not only in these boroughs, but in many manors in various counties, especially in Sussex, Suffolk, Surrey, Essex, Norfolk, Middlesex, and in a special part of Somerset. It has been shown t have existed, also , to a less extent, on some few manors in Hampshire, Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire, Huntingdonshire, Hertfordshire, Northamptonshire, Oxfordshire, Kent, Devon, Cornwall, Rutland, Herefordshire, Berkshire, Shropshire, and Monmouthshire. In Sussex it prevailed on 140 manors, chiefly in the Rape of Lewis, where the custom was almost an exclusive one. This junior right of inheritance of the youngest son, or borough-English, as it has been commonly called, also prevailed in parts of Glamorganshire, where its settlement of the English on the Welsh border. There is no trace of any similar custom under which the youngest son is the sole heir in the ancient laws of Wales.
    It is certain that this custom could not have arisen spontaneously in so many places and districts widely separated from each other. It has probably come from some general race custom, and ahs been preserved in the localities where it has survived by the attachment of people to the usage of their ancestors. Nothing is more remarkable in the history of mankind than the attachment of people of all races to the customs which have been handed down to them from their forefathers. That junior right was preserved in the boroughs and manors in which it survived through the period of the Middle Ages, when the tendency was one ever growing stronger in favour of primogeniture, is remarkable testimony to its vitality, and the attachment to it of those who lived under it. If we can thus trace it, as we may, as far back as the Old English period, when people certainly were as tenacious of their ancient customs as their descendants were, it is reasonable to conclude that those who lived under it in the Saxon period also inherited it from some earlier forefathers. The custom of junior right is no more likely to have been invented here and there in certain early boroughs and manors of Saxon England than of Mediaeval England. We must look for its origin in the Continental homes of our oldest English forefathers. Some of the evidence which shows that the Anglo-Saxons had forefathers of many different tribes has already been brought forward, and the survival on our manors of so many different examples of ancient customary inheritance points to the same conclusion. On the Continent we find that junior right existed in various degrees, ranging from the descent of the whole inheritance to merely articles of household furniture, in Picardy, Artois and Hainault, in Ponthieu and Vivier, and in districts round Arras, Douai, Amiens, Lille and Cassel, and in the neighbourhood of St. Omer. It has also been noted at Grimberghe in Brabant.(6)
    Similar customs prevailed in a part of Friesland, the most notable of which was the `Jus Theelacticum,` or custom of the Theel lands, doles, or allottable lands in East Friesland, not far from the mouth of the Ems. There are inherited allotment was indivisible ; on the death of the father it passed intact to the youngest son, and on his death without issue it fell into possession of the whole community.(7) This was an exception to the more general Frisian plan by which the inheritance was divided. Similar customs which are not superseded by the civil code existed in Westphalia and parts of the Rhine provinces, and also in the Department of Herford near Minden, where, so strong is the hold of the custom, that until quite recently no elder child ever demanded his legal obligatory share, and the children acquiesced in the succession of the youngest.(8) The same custom also prevailed in Silesia and parts of Bavaria, where the newer laws of inheritance failed to breakdown the time-honoured succession of the youngest , the rights being preserved by a secret settlement or by the force of opinion. Similar customs prevailed in the forest of Odinwald and in the thinly-populated district to the north of Constance. Many examples maybe found in Snabia, in the Grisons, in Elsass, and other Teutonic or partly Teutonic countries, where old customs of this kind still influence the feelings of the peasantry, although they have ceased to be legally binding.(9)
    The youngest son has his privilege, also, in the island of Bornholm, and a similar right has been observed in the territory of the old Republic of Lubeck,(10) a district where a Slavonic people formerly lived. Junior right also prevails in Saxe-Altenburg, which has an agricultural population of Slavonic extraction.(11)
    It maybe noted from this list of localities that the custom in Germany, North-Eastern France, and Belgium, survives in separated districts rather than in whole territories, and it is not necessarily understood that it survives in all places in the districts named. In Germany also it should be noted that it survives where Slavonic influence has been felt, such as in Oldenburg, Saxe-Altenburg, parts of Bavaria, and in Silesia. The same custom survives in parts of Pomerania, mingled in other places with primogeniture.(12)
    Pomerania was Slavonic, Oldenburg had an intrusive Slav settlement, and Axe-Altenburg and parts of Bavaria have in a similar way had Slav immigrants, or preserved a remnant of the older race from which the Slavs probably descended. The custom of junior right is clearly not a Germanic institution. It prevails in parts of Germany indeed, but it can be traced to no old German code of laws or general custom, as far as that has been able to discover. On the contrary, Tacitus tells us that equal division among the sons was the custom of succession among the ancient Germans. Germany was undoubtedly in the early centuries A. D. much influenced by the hordes of Slavs on its eastern borders, and received many intrusive colonies of that race. There is evidence to show that junior right spread through the parts of Germany where it prevailed, owing to the migrations of the Slavs, or people of mixed Slavic and Teutonic descent. No instances of this custom occurs in Scandinavia, and at the same time no instances can be adduced of Slav settlement in that peninsula. The custom of junior right is found in the early Russian code, by which the inheritance of the father appears to have passed to males in preference to females, and the youngest son was always to take the paternal house.
    This early Russian code of laws, known as ``The Rousskaia Pravda of Yaroslav,`` which is preserved in the Chronicle of Novgorod, shows that the early Slavs had much the same institutions, such as trial by ordeal and the wager of battle, compensations for injuries, etc., as prevailed among other European nations at the same time.(13) Primogeniture is alien to the spirit of Slavonic institutions.(14) it was first introduced into Russian law by `Peter the Great`, but ,having been found unworkable, was abolished by the Empress Anne. It was so far restored by the Emperor Nicholas in 1830 that a father was then allowed to make his eldest son his heir if he chose to do so.(15) The Slavs are essentially agriculturists, and the tendency of the race is in the direction of co-operation. The primary element of organization in Russia – the village community, or mir,(16) under which the youngest son has a preference – is a survival of the old tenure of village communities that at one time must have been widely prevalent in Europe. When first we meet with the Slavs in history, we find them living in communities. Having all these facts in mind, we may reasonably look eastward of Germany for the origin of the custom by which the youngest son inherits. Nowhere else in Europe, except among the Slavs, can it be traced, so far as is known, in an early code of laws. It can indeed be traced still further eastward among the Mongolsof Asia, but it is unnecessary to follow it so far, for it is possible that it may have been derived by the Slavs from the earlier broad-headed Alpine race, of which they were probably an offshoot.
    If we turn now to our country, and consider such a case as that of the manor of Merdon in Hampshire, although the name of the village has for many centuries been changed to Hursley, we find that inheritance by the youngest son is still a living custom among the copyholders,? And this on a manor with a name identical in part with that of the primitive mir, which maybe only an accidental co-incidence. In Sussex, where of all the English counties junior right most largely survives, mer, as part of place names, is also most largely represented. Some of them in their old forms are Keymer, Angermer, Stanmer, Falmer, Jonsmere, Cuckmere, Bormer, Burgemere, Udimer, and Ringmer, and they will be again referred to. These names maybe considered for what they are worth side by side with the existence of junior right in Sussex ; they maybe a coincidence, and no undue stress should be laid on them. That mer or mir is, however, the name of a primitive agricultural community appears from the survival of the name in Russia, and it is certain that such communities came into England from Continental lands during the English settlement. All our available evidence, therefore, points to Eastern Germany, to old Slavic lands, and German territories which were influenced by Slavs, as the source or sources of English junior right. It was apparently a custom that, when once ingrained into the life of a tribe, would remain under more settled conditions of agricultural life, and be passed on from age to age and from country to country.

    The original story about the fire bird, the golden apples and the youngest of three brothers taking the inheritance, is preserved in Western Europe by the descendants of Slavs living there, it was brought to Sweden by the Rus and it found it's way to Ireland either during old Anglo Saxon (and West Slavic) invasions or during Viking invasions. Which ever way it arrived to Ireland, the population that preserved it must have been quite big in order to preserve the story like this to this day.

    All stories have the same elements: golden apples being stolen by a fire bird, three brothers going on a quest, the youngest succeeds with a help of a talking animal. Please note that the animal which helps the youngest brother in the Russian story is a wolf, the totemic animal of the Serbs, the totem of Dabog, Hromi Daba, Sun god. Also please note that in all the stories the first two brothers fail because they choose easy life instead of quest. In the Russian tale they can not make the tough decision which of three dangerous roads to take and stay living idle life. What is amazing is that German, Belgian, Irish and Swedish stories have an identical passage about two inns: a merry inn with dancing, and a quiet inn. In all western European stories the two older brothers go to merry inn and never come out. The youngest stays in the quit inn and continues the quest. This indicates the single carrier of the story, and looking at the history, the most likely candidates are the west Slavic Pomeranians, Pomorjani, Fomori, Sorbs, northern Serbs. They were present in all the lands where the story is recorded.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Here are the fire bird stories so you can compare them:

    the Russian story:
    A king's apple tree bore golden apples, but every night, one was stolen. Guards reported that the Firebird stole them. The king told his two oldest sons that the one who caught the bird would receive half his kingdom and be his heir. They drew lots to see who would be first, but both fell asleep; they tried to claim it had not come, but it had stolen an apple. Finally Ivan Tsarevich, the youngest son, asked to try; his father was reluctant because of his youth but consented. Ivan remained awake the entire time, and upon seeing the bird, tried to catch it by the tail. Unfortunately, Ivan only managed to grasp one feather. The Firebird did not return, but the king longed for the bird. He said that still, whoever caught it would have half his kingdom and be his heir.

    The older brothers set out. They came to a stone that said whoever took one road would know hunger and cold; whoever took the second would live, though his horse would die; and whoever took the third would die, though his horse would live. They did not know which way to take, and so took up an idle life.

    Ivan begged to be allowed to go until his father yielded. He took the second road, and a wolf ate his horse. He walked until he was exhausted, and the wolf offered to carry him. It brought him to the garden where the firebird was and told him to take it out without its golden cage. The prince went in, but thought it was a great pity not to take the cage, but when he touched it, bells rang, waking everyone, and he was captured. He told his story, and the First King said he could have had it for the asking, but he could be spared now only if he could present the king with the Horse with the Golden Mane.
    He met the wolf and admitted to his disobedience. It carried him to the kingdom and stables where he could get the horse and warned him against the golden bridle. Its beauty tempted him, and he touched it, and instruments of brass sounded. He was captured, and the Second King told him that if he had come with the word, he would have given him the horse, but now he would be spared only if he brought him Helen the Beautiful to be his wife.
    Ivan went back to the wolf, confessed, and was brought to her castle. The wolf carried her off, but Ivan was able to assuage her fears. Ivan brought her back to the Second King, but wept because they had come to love each other. The wolf turned itself into the form of the princess and had Ivan exchange it for the Horse with the Golden Mane. Ivan and Helen rode off on the Horse. The wolf escaped the king. It reached Ivan and Helen, and Helen rode the horse and Ivan the wolf. Ivan asked the wolf to become like the horse and let him exchange it for the Firebird, so that he could keep the horse as well. The wolf agreed, the exchange was done, and Ivan returned to his own kingdom with Helen, the horse, and the Firebird.
    The wolf said its service was done when they returned to where it had eaten Ivan's horse. Ivan dismounted and lamented their parting. They went on for a time and slept. His older brothers found them, killed Ivan, sliced his body to pieces, and told Helen that they would kill her if she would not say that they had fairly won the horse, the firebird, and her. They brought them to their father, and the second son received half the kingdom, and the oldest was to marry Helen.
    The Grey Wolf found Ivan's body and caught two fledgling crows that would have eaten it. Their mother pleaded for them, and the wolf sent her to fetch the water of death, which restored the body, and the water of life, which revived him. The wolf carried him to the wedding in time to stop it; the older brothers were made servants or killed by the wolf, but Ivan married Helen and lived happily with her.

    the Irish story:
    The Greek Princess and the Young Gardener is an Irish fairy tale collected by Patrick Kennedy in Fireside Stories of Ireland. Joseph Jacobs included it in More Celtic Fairy Tales.[1]

    A king with one daughter grew old and sick, but the doctors found that the best medicine for him was apples from a tree in his own orchard, outside his window. One night, he saw a bird stealing them. He blamed the gardener for neglecting the orchard, and the gardener promised that his sons, the best archers in the land, would stop the thief. The first night, the oldest son came but fell asleep; the king saw him and the thieving bird again, and though he shouted, the boy did not wake quickly enough. The same thing happened with the second. But the third night, the youngest son stayed awake and shot off a feather, frightening off the bird.
    The king admired the feather greatly and said he would marry his daughter to whoever brought him the bird. The gardener's oldest son set out to do it. When a fox came to beg some of his lunch, the son shot an arrow at him. Out of respect for his younger brother, the fox warned him against a merry inn with dancing, and to stay in a quiet inn. The oldest son found the inns, chose the merrier one, and never came out again. Soon after, the second son set out, and ended up the same.
    Finally, the youngest set out. He shared his lunch with the fox and stayed in the quiet inn. The next day, the fox told him the bird was at the castle of the King of Spain and carried him there. Then it said that he could go in and carry out the bird and its cage. He went in, but he saw three golden apples with the bird, and a golden cage. He went to put the bird in the golden cage, and it woke. The king gave him the chance for his life: to steal the King of Morocco's bay filly.
    The son came out, the fox carried him to that castle, and warned him to not let the horse touch anything except the ground. He went in, and saw a golden saddle; when he put it on the filly, it squealed and woke the castle. The king told him he could have his life and the filly if he brought him Princess Golden Locks, the daughter of the King of Greeks.
    The fox carried him to that castle and warned him how to answer when asked a favor. He found the princess and woke her, asking her to let him take her with her, and promising to free her from the King of Morocco. She asked to be able to say goodbye to her father; he refused; she asked to kiss him instead, and the boy agreed, but that woke the king. He said that if the boy removed a great heap of clay, enchanted so that for every shovel thrown away, two came back, he would believe that he could keep her from the king. The boy tried, but the heap grew larger. The fox told him to eat and rest. He confessed to the king and princess his failure, and the princess hoped he did not fail. The king let him take her, though he lamented being alone, as the princess's brother was kept captive by a witch.
    The fox carried them to the king of Morocco, and the boy asked to shake hands with the princess before he left. When the king agreed, he carried her off with the bay filly. Then he brought the bay filly to the king of Spain, leaving the princess with the fox, but when the king gave him the bird and the golden apples, first he petted the horse as a fine beast, and when he was done, he had ridden off with both the horse and the bird.
    They rescued his brothers, who were begging, and the fox asked the boy to cut off his head and tail. The boy could not do it, but his oldest brother did it for him, and the fox became the prince, the princess's brother. He married the king's daughter, and the gardener's son married his sister.

    The German story:
    "The Golden Bird" is a Brothers Grimm fairy tale, number 57, about the pursuit of a golden bird by a king's three sons.[1]

    Every year, a king's apple tree is robbed of one golden apple during the night. His gardener sets his sons to watch, and though the first two fall asleep, the youngest stays awake and sees that the thief is a golden bird. He tries to shoot it, but only knocks a feather off.
    The feather is so valuable that the king decides he must have the bird. He sends his three sons, one after another, to capture the priceless golden bird. The sons each meet a talking fox, who gives them advice for their quest: to choose a bad inn over a brightly lit and merry one. The first two sons ignore the advice and, in the pleasant inn, abandon their quest.
    The third son obeys the fox, but when the fox advises him to take the golden bird in a wooden cage rather than a golden one, he disobeys, and the golden bird rouses the castle, resulting in his capture. He is sent after the golden horse as a condition for sparing his life. The fox advises him to use a wooden saddle rather than a golden one, but he fails again. He is sent after the princess from the golden castle. The fox advises him not to let her say farewell to her parents, but he disobeys, and the princess's father orders him to remove a hill as the price of his life.
    The fox removes it, and then, as they set out, he advises the prince how to keep all the things he has won. It then asks the prince to shoot it and cut off its head. When the prince refuses, it warns him against buying gallowsflesh and sitting on the edge of wells.
    He finds that his brothers, who have been carousing and living sinfully in the meantime, are to be hanged (on the gallows) and buys their liberty. They find out what he has done. When he sits on a well's edge, they push him in. They take the things and the princess and bring them to their father. However the bird, the horse, and the princess all grieve for the prince. The fox rescues the prince. When he returns to his father's castle dressed in a beggar's cloak, the bird, the horse, and the princess all recognize him as the man who won them, and become cheerful again. His brothers are put to death, and he marries the princess.
    Finally, the third son cuts off the fox's head and feet at the creature's request. The fox is revealed to be a man, the brother of the princess.

    In The Golden Blackbird, the king's son set out because the doctors have prescribed the golden blackbird for their ill father. The two older brothers are allured into the inn without any warning, and the youngest meets the talking hare that aids him only after he passes it by. The horse is featured only as a purchase, and he did not have to perform two tasks to win the Porcelain Maiden, the princess figure. Also, the hare is not transformed at the end of the tale.
    A similar variant fairy tale of French-Canadian origin is "The Golden Phoenix" collected by Marius Barbeau, and retold by Michael Hornyansky. It follows the hero Petit Jean, the youngest son of the King, who discovers the thief of his father's golden apple to be a golden Phoenix, a legendary bird. Other differences include a battle with 3 mythical beasts, a Sultan's game of hide-and-seek and his marriage with the Sultan's beautiful daughter.

    the Belgian story: "golden black bird"

    the Swedish story:
    The Bird 'Grip' is a Swedish fairy tale.[1] Andrew Lang included it The Pink Fairy Book.[1] It is Aarne-Thompson type 550, the quest for the golden bird/firebird;

    A king lost his sight. An old woman said that the song of the bird, 'Grip', would restore it. The king's eldest son offered to fetch the bird, from where it was kept in a cage by another king; but on his way to fetch the bird, he stayed at a merry inn, where he enjoyed himself so much that he forgot about his journey. His two brothers followed; the second also stayed at the inn, but the youngest said that he had to fetch the bird 'Grip', and continued on instead of remaining at the inn.
    He stayed at a house in the woods where he heard shrieks in the night. In the morning, he asked about the shrieks. A girl told him that they came from a dead man, whom the innkeeper had beat and killed for not being able to pay the bill, and whom he refused to bury without the money for the funeral. The prince paid his bill, but was afraid to stay longer, so he asked the girl to help him escape in the night. She told him the host kept the key to the stables under his pillow, but she would help him if he would take her with him. He did so, and got her a place at a good inn before he went on.
    The youngest son then met a fox, which told him it could help him. When they got to the castle where the bird was, the fox gave him three grains: one for the guardroom, one for the room with the cage, one for the cage itself. Then he could take the bird, but he must not stroke it. He obeyed with the grains, but when he decided to stroke the bird, it woke and screamed. He was captured. In prison, the fox appeared and told him to answer "Yes" to everything at the trial. He was asked whether he was a master thief and he answered yes. The king offered to pardon him if he carried off the world's most beautiful princess, from the next kingdom.
    The fox gave him three grains again: for the guardroom, the princess's chamber, and her bed, and warned him not to kiss the princess, but he failed again at the kiss. Again at the trial, he was asked whether he was a master thief and he answered yes. The king offered to pardon him if he carried off the horse with the four golden shoes, from the next kingdom.
    The fox gave him three grains again, for the guardroom, the stable, and the horse's stall, and warned him against the golden saddle, and that this time, the fox would not be able to help him if the boy failed in his task. When the boy saw the saddle, he reached for it, but something struck his arm, and he led out the horse without it. He confessed to the fox, who said that it had been he who had struck his arm. Returning to the princess's castle, he confessed that he would gladly take her to his father's castle on the horse, and so the fox gave him the grains again, and this time he carried the princess off. He asked the fox if he could try the bird again, and this time, he succeeded in catching the bird.
    The fox then warned the boy against ransoming anyone with the money. The prince rode on and discovered that his brothers had gone into debt at the inn and were to be hanged. He paid off the debt. His brothers, jealous, threw him into a den of lions and took the bird, the horse, and the princess, threatening to kill her if she did not say they had won them. They told their father that their youngest had been hanged for debt. But the bird did not sing, the horse would let no one in the stall, and the princess wept unceasingly.
    In the lions' den, the prince found the fox; the lions did not harm him, and the fox led him out, saying only that sons that would forget their father would also betray their brother. The fox asked him to cut off his head. The prince tried to refuse, but the fox insisted that he would kill the prince if he did not. The prince did, and the fox told him that he was the dead man whose debts he had paid.
    The prince disguised himself as a horse-shoer and went to the castle. He put shoes on the horse with four golden shoes, and hearing the bird Grip would not sing, declared that it lacked something and if he could see it, he could learn what it was. He called the bird by name. It began to sing, and caused the princess to smile. The king's sight recovered, and he recognized the horse-shoer as his youngest son. He banished the older sons, but the youngest married the princess and lived happily ever after.

    There is also a Scotish Story "How Ian Direach got the Blue Falcon" but this story only contains the golden bird and no apples and no three brothers.

    The Fire Bird story is probably one of the oldest stories ever told and is preserved to this day thanks to these folk stories. It comes from Balkans, the land of giants, who caught fire and then learned how to tame it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Hi all

    I haven't posted anything here in a while. This is all Ezra's fault. :) I followed one of his leads and ended up falling into such a deep rabbit hole, that it took me two weeks to scramble out of it. But what i found in it and what i brought out with me is a beautiful picture of one true god. In next couple of posts i will try to tell you a story about that "one true god". I hope you will enjoy it.

    There is one god and one god only

    Our "one god", as we will see, can have one, two, three, four...many faces, but it remains always one and only. This god was born in Europe, and was brought by Vincans to all the other parts of the globe. This god has many names and many depictions, and many descriptions but he has effectively remained the same since at least Vinca times and probably since a lot earlier. This god has many attributes, and many of those attributes have eventually became gods themselves. But put these little gods together and you will get a mosaic from which our "one true god" will look back at you. Who or what is this force which became "one true god", and whom European people worshiped since at least the time of Vinca, but probably a lot longer? This force is fire and its essence the electricity, the force that creates, maintains and destroys universes, galaxies, stars, planets, living things.

    Big pause, need to give you time to stop laughing and rolling your eyes.

    But please read on an hopefully you will see what i saw. Or not. It is difficult to know where to start painting the picture of this "one true god", because it is like a hologram, where every part is connected with every other part. This picture also spans space and time, and it is not static, but is more like a shimmering phantom. But if you squint you can see this "one true god" in everything.

    So we have to start somewhere, and i believe the best place to start is where i started, with Agni:

    Agni (Sanskrit: अग्नि) is a Hindu deity, one of the most important of the Vedic gods. He is the god of fire[1] and the acceptor of sacrifices. The sacrifices made to Agni go to the deities because Agni is a messenger[2] from and to the other gods. He is ever-young, because the fire is re-lit every day, and also immortal... Agni has three forms: fire, lightning and the Sun...The word agni is Sanskrit for "fire" (noun)...In some Hindu symbolism, Agni's parents are said to be the two components of the firedrill used to start the fire, and when young he was said to be cared for by ten servants, which represent the fingers of the man who is starting the fire...

    Agni is described as god of fire, but at the same time it is said that he has three forms: fire, lightning and the Sun. Fire is terrestrial fire, sun is celestial fire and lightning is the link between them, the essence of fire. The latest scientific data is showing us that universe is electric in nature, and that the main building block of our universe is self organizing electrically charged plasma. Universe seems to be powered and controlled not by gravity but by electricity. Endless, eternal birkeland current grid creates, powers and destroys galaxies, who in turn create, power and destroy suns, who in turn create, power and destroy planets, who in turn create, power and destroy moons. Suns, planets and moons create, power and destroy life. Everything is connected with everything and everything is electrically charged plasma. Electric universe (the sky) father creates electric sun (the son fire) by means of birkeland currents (celestial lightning). Electric universe (the sky) father also creates electric earth (the daughter fire) by means of electric currents that flow from the sun to the earth and directly from universal sky grid. This is makes earth the daughter of sun and sun's sister. The marriage of Sun and Earth produces life including us humans. The Electric sun father holds mother earth in constant embrace, and creates life by impregnating mother earth with his electric penis, lightning. His progeny is terrestrial fire: fire burning in the belly of mother earth - the volcanic fire, fire burning on the surface of mother earth - ordinary fire, and fire burning in all living things - the life fire.

    Agni, the three headed good later became three gods, trimurti:
    The Trimūrti (English: ‘three forms’; Sanskrit: त्रिमूर्तिः trimūrti), Tri Murati or Trimurati, is a concept in Hinduism "in which the cosmic functions of creation, maintenance, and destruction are personified by the forms of Brahma the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver and Shiva the destroyer or transformer."[1][2] These three gods have been called "the Hindu triad"[3] or the "Great Trinity",[4] often addressed as "Brahma-Vishnu-Maheshwara."
    One type of depiction for the Trimurti shows three heads on one neck, and often even three faces on one head, each looking in a different direction.[5]


    Trimurti was eventually split into three separate gods, as people forgot the original meaning of the "three forms": Vishnu, Brahma and Siva, even though the Vedic scripture tells us that Agni is one and only god and that there is no other god but him:
    They call Him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is the Divine good winged bird (the sun with beautiful rays). The sages describe one and the same Agni in various ways and call it Agni, Yama and Matarisvan. Rigveda 1.164.46

    Agni itself is Indra, Vayu, Brahma, Vishnu and Brahmanaspati. Rigveda 2.1.3

    Varuna and Mitra are but functional manifestations of Agni. Rigveda 2.1.4

    Vishnu, Rudra and Marut are also functional manifestations of Agni. Rigveda 2.1.6

    That (Supreme Being) is Agni; that is the Surya; that is the Vayu; that is the Chandrama; that is Jyoti; that is Brahman; and that is Prajapati. (Madhyandina) Yajurveda 32.1

    “For indeed Agni is that God. His are the names: as the easterners (prachyaah) call him ‘Sarva’ (all), Bahlikas (call him) ‘Dhava’ (one who shakes), ‘Rudra’ (one who causes weeping), ‘Pasunampatih’ (the Lord or the protector of beasts), ‘Agni’ (the first leader, he who was there at the outset).” Kanva Shatapath Brahmana

    The perception of the worshipper makes the ONE Deity appear as three, but in their ontological essence, they are ONE. Brhaddevata 2.18

    In some of the hymns like the following ones, we see Agni being elevated to the status of a supreme god, " Agni is the Vaivashnara the center of all people ... He is in the sky as well as at the center of the earth." A similar notion can be found in this hymns also. "Commingling, restless, he ascends the sky, unveiling nights and all that stands or moves, as he the sole God is preeminent in greatness among all these other Gods."

    This last clarification of Agni's nature is extremely important as it shows us that Agni is not only in the sky, and in the hearth but also "at the center of the earth". I wandered for a long time why and how did Sun gods, like Crom Dubh, Hromi Daba become associated with the underworld. The reason is in the fact that the sun and fire are one. When Sun god dies in the evening, where does he go? Into the fiery underworld.

    There are three vurunas (hearts) where agni resides: Heavenly hearth (sun), earthly hearth (volcanoes) and human fire hearths. Originally the fire in human hearths was a gift from god, the fire made by lightning strike. You needed to be lucky, to be liked by "one true god" to be able to obtain fire, which was considered part of god's body. Remember the magic feather of the fire bird. And people built a nest where fire bird can live and called it hearth.


    In Serbian hearth is called "ognjište", the place where oganj, ognji, Agni lives. This is why hearth is a sacred holy place in Serbian tradition. It is sacred because it is the home of "one true god" Agni, fire.

    Then one day humans learned how to "bring Agni out", how to call "one true god" into existence. And the age of fire began. But i will talk about this later.

    First I will post here some scientific data to show you the connection between the fire, electricity, suns, galaxies, life. It will give you a chance to glimpse the awesome complexity and beauty of this "one true god" and it will show you why people started celebrating it and still do to this day.


    What is Christ pointing to while he is holding up three fingers, the symbol of Holy Trinity? He is pointing to his sacred heart (or should i call it sacred hearth) which is burning with fire. And what is that holy trinity that the three fingers symbolize? The three that are one, the three that come out of one but that also are one? The father (Sky, Galaxy), the son (Our sun) and the holy spirit (electric current which powers our sun). Holy trinity is also the father (Our sun), the son (the heart fire but also the hart fire) and lightning, electricity, electromagnetic field of the earth, the holy spirit.

    So if you hate science skip the next post. But you will miss some beautiful pictures.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Electric universe

    Electric Currents in Space.
    An electric current in space plasma is generally known as a Birkeland current, after the Norwegian scientist Kristian Birkeland who in 1903, first suggested their existence. Birkeland is the founder of experimental astrophysics and the grandfather of plasma physics who is famed for his experiments and expions into the Arctic Circle to study the aurora. More specifically, a Birkeland current exists when charged particles in the current follow magnetic field lines. Thus, they are sometimes referred to as field-aligned currents. Birkeland currents often show filamentary, or twisted “rope-like” magnetic structure and this filamentary structure results from the self-constricting magnetic field lines and current paths that may develop in a plasma. Sometimes those twisted shapes are visible and sometimes not - it depends on the strength of the current density being carried by the plasma. Birkeland currents act as powerlines in space.


    In our solar system, evidence of these currents were found in 1979, when the Voyager spacecraft detected an enormous Birkeland current connecting Jupiter and its moon Io. Io acts as an electrical generator as it moves through Jupiter's magnetic field, developing 400,000 volts across its diameter and generating an electric current of 3 million amperes that flows along the magnetic field to the planet's ionosphere.

    This large-scale structure in the universe, known as the cosmic web reveal galaxies lie along filaments of matter like pearls on a string, and galaxy clusters arise where filaments meet. An international group of astrophysicists used a computer simulation to recreate how the universe grew and and evolved. The simulation image adjacent is a snatchshot of the present universe that features a large cluster of galaxies (bright yellow) surrounded by thousands of stars, galaxies and dark matter (web).


    Electric Currents In Space Generate Electric Galaxies!

    Computer simulations can trace the development of spiral galaxies over time as two globs of plasma interact and form a pair of filments that eventually produce the entire range of galaxy types. Since 99.999% of the visible universe is in the form of plasma, these charged particles respond to the laws of electromagnetism and because of their small size, more specifically their charge to mass ratio, their low density in space means that gravity and Newton’s laws have very little influence on describing their behaviour.

    The adjacent images from a supercomputer simulation trace the development of spiral structure in two interacting plasma blobs over a span of nearly 1 billion years. At the start of the interaction at upper left the filaments are 260,000 light-years apart; all 10 panels are reproduced at the same scale. Simulations such as this can reproduce the full range of observed spiral galaxy types using electromagnetic processes rather than gravitational ones. — Credit: A. Peratt, Plasma Cosmology, 1992. The sequence is animated here.

    Incredibly, when plasma physics reveals the interaction of energy pairs, the familiar Ying Yang symbol from Chinese philosophy, appears. This symbology is used to describe how seemingly disjunct or opposing forces are interconnected and interdependent in the natural world, giving rise to each other in turn.

    The plasma universe may be eternal and infinite, directly contradicting the Big bang model. In this picture, swirling streams of electrons and ions form filaments that span vast regions of space. Where pairs of these filaments interact the particles gain energy and at narrow “pinch” regions produce the entire range of galaxy types as well as the full spectrum of cosmic electromagnetic radiation. Thus galaxies must lie along filaments, as they are observed to do on a large scale. The bulk of the filaments are optically invisible from a distance, much like the related Birkeland currents that reach from the Sun and cause auroras on Earth. —Credit: A. Peratt, Plasma Cosmology, 1992.

    These images from a supercomputer simulation trace the development of spiral structure in two interacting plasma blobs over a span of nearly 1 billion years. At the start of the interaction at upper left the filaments are 260,000 light-years apart; all 10 panels are reproduced at the same scale. Simulations such as this can reproduce the full range of observed spiral galaxy types using electromagnetic processes rather than gravitational ones. — Credit: A. Peratt, Plasma Cosmology, 1992.


    Electric sun

    In this day and age there is no longer any doubt that electrical effects in plasmas play an important role in the phenomena we observe on the Sun. The major properties of the "Electric Sun (ES) model" are as follows:
    Most of the space within our galaxy is occupied by plasma (rarefied ionized gas) containing electrons (negative charges) and ionized atoms (positive charges). Every charged particle in the plasma has an electric potential energy (voltage) just as every pebble on a mountain has a mechanical potential energy with respect to sea level. The Sun is at the center of a plasma cell, called the heliosphere, that stretches far out - several times the radius of Pluto. As of 9/9/2012 the radius of this plasma cell has been measured to be greater than 18 billion km or 122 times the distance from the Sun to Earth. These are facts not hypotheses.
    The Sun is at a more positive electrical potential (voltage) than is the space plasma surrounding it - probably in the order of several billion volts.
    Positive ions leave the Sun and electrons enter the Sun. Both of these flows add to form a net positive current flowing through the Sun (entering at the poles and leaving radially at lower latitudes). This constitutes a plasma discharge analogous in every way (except size) to those that have been observed in electrical plasma laboratories for decades. Because of the Sun's positive charge (voltage), it acts as the anode in a plasma discharge. As such, it exhibits many of the phenomena observed in earthbound plasma laboratory experiments.
    The Sun may be powered, not from within itself, but from outside, by the electric (Birkeland) currents that flow in our arm of our galaxy as they do in all galaxies. This possibility - that the Sun may be externally powered by its galactic environment - is the most speculative idea in the ES hypothesis and is always attacked by critics while they completely ignore all the other more obvious properties of the ES model. In the Plasma Universe model, cosmic sized, low-density currents create the galaxies and the stars within those galaxies by the electromagnetic z-pinch effect. It is only a small extrapolation to ask whether these currents remain in place to power those stars. Galactic currents are of low current density, but, because the sizes of the stars are large, the total current (Amperage) is high. An electrically powered Sun's radiated power would be due to the energy delivered by that amperage. As it travels around the galactic center the Sun may come into regions of higher or lower current density and so its output may vary both periodically and randomly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Electric Earth
    Telluric Currents - Subterranean Electric Currents

    Large "telluric currents" have been found circulating through Earth's crust because our magnetic field induces current flow in conductive strata. Thousands of amperes flow beneath the surface, varying according to conductivity. Since the Sun can affect Earth's magnetic field through geomagnetic storms, fluctuations in telluric currents can occur when there is an increase in sunspots or solar flares, because they create oscillations in the ionosphere.
    "A telluric current (from Latin tellūs, "earth"), or Earth current, is an electric current which moves underground or through the sea. Telluric currents result from both natural causes and human activity, and the discrete currents interact in a complex pattern. The currents are extremely low frequency and travel over large areas at or near the surface of Earth."
    "Telluric currents are phenomena observed in the Earth's crust and mantle. In September 1862, an experiment to specifically address Earth currents was carried out in the Munich Alps (Lamont, 1862). The currents are primarily induced by changes in the outer part of the Earth's magnetic field, which are usually caused by interactions between the solar wind and the magnetosphere or solar radiation effects on theionosphere. Telluric currents flow in the surface layers of the earth. The electric potential on the Earth's surface can be measured at different points, enabling us to calculate the magnitudes and directions of the telluric currents and hence the Earth's conductance"

    Powerful Earth Current Enters North America From The Pacific

    The world's longest natural electric current has been discovered under Australia. The current passes through sedimentary rocks for more than 6000 kilometres across the Australian outback. Its nearest rival, some 2000 kilometres shorter, is a current running from Wyoming into Canada in North America.
    An immense current of terrestrial electricity originating somewhere in the Pacific enters the North American continent along the Strait of Georgia (between Vancouver Island and the British Columbia mainland) and shoots past Tacoma toward Oregon. The discoverers of the current, John R. Booker and Gerard Hensel, at the University of Washington, traced the flow of electricity through a narrow wedge of porous, water-bearing rock that parallels a fault line. Another branch of this terrestrial circuit enters along the Strait of Juan de Fuca. No estimates are given of the magnitude of the current; and there are no speculations as to the origin of the electromagnetic force driving the current.

    Electric vulcanoes
    Over the last two hundred years of reporting, lightning has been seen in the ash clouds spewing from numerous volcanic eruptions. Gigantic branching displays were photographed during the Mt. Chaiten eruption in May of 2008. There were reports of ball lightning bigger than beach balls rolling along the ground when Mt. St. Helens erupted in 1981. Eyjafjallajökull produced flashes that lit up the sky for many kilometers.

    When volcanoes erupt, they unleash with epic proportions lightning storms of staggering ferocity. Talking of the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD (and the destruction of Pompeii), Pliny the Younger wrote: “behind us were frightening dark clouds, rent by lightning twisted and hurled, opening to reveal huge figures of flame.”

    The cause of volcanic lightning is not completely understood. Geologists assume that the cause is similar to the cause of lightning in thunderstorms, which is also not completely understood. [For discussion of lightning, see TPOD Sept 17, 2004, Weather: Fair, Foul and Electric] For years, geologists have talked about charge separation caused by volcanic dust particles colliding and building up static charges. Recently a new theory has been proposed that relies on the water content of magma.

    From an electric universe point of view, the Earth is a small charged body moving in a large cell of plasma. Because of this, explanations of all physical phenomena in, on, and near the Earth must take the electrical behavior of plasma into account. The Physics of the Plasma Universe by Anthony Peratt describes magma as a plasma, a medium containing moving charges. So we should expect volcanoes not only to exhibit electrical behavior but to have that behavior connected with the larger plasma environment, that is, to be elements in a larger electrical circuit.

    But why do some volcanoes produce lightning while others don't? More curious, why do some volcanoes with large dusty plumes produce little or no lightning and others with small or mediocre plumes produce much lightning? The simple answer could be that all volcanoes are electric but that the lightning displays happen only when the resistance to the volcanic current is high. You have a good example of this in your home. The electric wires that carry the current from the wall socket to your lamp don't produce heat or light. But when that same current encounters the high resistance of a tungsten filament, it does produce heat and light.

    Recent observations of volcanic lightning add new support to the claims of electrical theorists, that volcanoes are dynamically related to an electric Earth.
    New discoveries have deepened the mysteries of volcanic lightning. A recent news story reports on a study into volcanic electrical phenomena occurring in the eruption of Mt. Augustine in Alaska. The website writes: "The lightning in a volcanic eruption occurs because the ash and other debris blasting out of the volcano are highly charged.... Though lightning was known to occur in the debris clouds above the volcano, the researchers found an earlier phase of volcanic lightning that had never before been observed and occurred right at the volcano's mouth just as it began erupting."

    In other words, the lightning preceded the supposed “charge separation” process from friction that has traditionally been claimed to occur in billowing volcanic clouds. One of the researchers described this phase of the volcanic lightning as "big sparks maybe going just from the mouth of the volcano up into the column that's shooting out of the volcano, and then some lightning that went upward from the top of the volcano up into the cloud that was forming."
    The report is ambiguous in speaking of “highly charged” debris rather than of moving ash and dust “separating charge.” “Charged debris” is much closer to the language that would be used by the electrical theorists. They consider the electrical activity to be a consequence of a pre-existing electric field that is short-circuited by a conductive medium.

    The observations in this study add direct support to the claims of the electrical theorists, who emphasize that the electric field of the Earth is an indispensable environment for both volcanoes and volcanic lightning. As pointed out by plasma scientist Anthony Peratt, magma is a conductive plasma. A jet of magma will short-circuit the electric field through which it is moving. So of course, it should not surprise us to discover electrical arcing along the column of erupting material. If measurements could be made, we would expect to find the arcs connecting subterranean currents with ionospheric currents.

    VOLCANOES have more in common with monster thunderstorms than we thought. Their plumes swirl like cyclones, which could explain why they have been seen spawning tornadoes and sheet lightning.

    It is conventionally thought that a volcanic plume rises straight up and spreads out in a rough circle. But when Pinaki Chakraborty at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and colleagues studied hourly satellite photos of the 1991 eruption of mount Pinatubo in the Philippines, they noticed that the margins gradually separated into five lobes. They saw similar shapes in photos of five other volcanoes.

    The team's calculations show that this is caused by anticlockwise rotation in the plume, which creates a centrifugal force that throws the lobes outwards. The rotation occurs due to interactions between the updraught of the plume and horizontal wind patterns (Nature, DOI: 10.1038/nature07866).

    Such rotation may be the driving force behind small tornadoes and waterspouts seen near plumes, which would form in the same way as dust devils around a thunderstorm. It may also explain the "sheaths" of lightning spotted in the 2008 eruption of mount Chaitén in Chile, because the cyclonic motion throws charged particles to the plume margins.




    Electric earthquakes
    Sometimes earthquakes can produce flashes of light and other luminous events, as well. Ball lightning has been reported accompanying earthquakes, as have bright, colorful cloud-like formations floating in the sky above the fractured strata. It is not surprising that glow discharges occur before and after earthquakes: compressing quartz creates a flow of electric current. That is one reason why radio noise can be detected coming from areas under extreme stress. Is that stress only due to compression?

    An earthquake light is an unusual luminous aerial phenomenon that reportedly appears in the sky at or near areas of tectonic stress, seismic activity, or volcanic eruptions. Once commonly challenged, it was not until photographs were taken during the Matsushiro earthquake swarm in Nagano, Japan (which occurred from 1965 through 1967) that the seismology community acknowledged their occurrence.
    The earthquake on February 27 did more than shake people up in the middle of the night. Reports have come in that mysterious lights also appeared around the quake’s epicentre near Market Rasen, Lincolnshire.

    One witness described how a grapefruit-sized glowing sphere appeared in her bedroom and then went out like a light. “This thing seemed to be coming across the room straight at me. I was very frightened,” she told the Louth Leader. Another person described flashes like car headlights at her window, and others spoke of lightning flashes after the quake. However, there was no lightning activity at the time of the quake.

    In fact, there have been many reports of “earthquake lights” throughout history. Residents of Tangshan in China, for example, were awakened one night in July 1976 by bright flashes in the sky. Two days later an earthquake registering 7.8 on the Richter scale killed 240,000 people and destroyed the city. And a Japanese scientist took photographs of balls of light and red streaks in the sky during a swarm of earthquakes in Matsushiro between 1965 and 1967.

    One explanation for his phenomenon is that the electrical properties of rocks may change under severe stress before or during a quake. This may generate changes in the electrical behaviour of the atmosphere, ionising the air and producing glowing lights.

    ... In this paper we draw attention to other parameters possibly related to earthquakes (EQ) that can be monitored from the ground and from space. Specifically, we propose to initiate a similar activity under TERRASCOPE or under some other future mission concept.

    Recent field studies and simultaneous satellite observations add confidence to reported observations of electromagnetic (EM) emissions before large earthquakes. There is likewise mounting evidence that, prior to seismic activity, electric fields are transmitted from the ground into the atmosphere, that thermal anomalies may become observable, that ions may be emitted from the ground, that the atmospheric conductivity is affected, that the ground potential may change locally or regionally, etc. Some authors have considered the possibility of an inverse connection - from the atmosphere to the ground, causing seismic activity. Increased lightning activity, due to growing seismic activity, and the large currents thus induced may have an effect on the fracturing or microfracturing of rocks, focusingthe EQ energy release [Pulinets, 2000]. Several ongoing international satellite missions, COMPASS (Russia, Poland,2001), DEMETER (France, Japan, Russia, 2002) and VARIANT (European Space Agency, Ukraine, 2001), are aimed at retrieving ionospheric plasma anomalies that may be related to EQ activity (M>5).


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Electric thunder storms



    Electric fires:
    Fire is the rapid oxidation of a material in the exothermic chemical process of combustion, releasing heat, light, and various reaction products.[1]
    The flame is the visible portion of the fire. If hot enough, the gases may become ionized to produce plasma.[2] Depending on the substances alight, and any impurities outside, the color of the flame and the fire's intensity will be different.
    Redox (reduction-oxidation) reactions include all chemical reactions in which atoms have their oxidation state changed—that is, redox reactions involve the transfer of electrons between species.
    Ions in a candle flame are influenced by a horizontal electric field


    Intense fires have the power to generate dirty thunderclouds that may be influencing the climate, scientists have discovered.

    Like volcanoes, the dirty, fire-induced thunderstorms, or pyrocumulonimbus storms (pyroCbs), can funnel smoke and particulates high into the stratosphere, experts announced Friday at an American Geophysical Union meeting in Foz do Iguaçu, Brazil. The high-flying smoke palls created by the so-called pyrocumulonimbus storms (pyroCbs) may be having unknown effects on Earth's climate, such as warming or cooling the atmosphere, the scientists added. And the fire-started storms aren't just figments of a climate model. Recent satellite images, for instance, show that the forest fires currently raging in Russia (pictures) are generating several pyrocumulonimbus storms of unprecedented size, according to Michael Fromm, a meteorologist at the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C...The fire-started clouds are abnormal in other ways too. For example, while they can produce thunder and lightning and even tornadoes, pyroCbs rarely, if ever, create rain...


    Lightning striking a tree


    Lightning caused forest fire USA


    Electric water
    While it's one of the most important and abundant chemical compounds on Earth, water is still a puzzle to scientists. Much research has been done to uncover the structure of water beyond the H2O scale, which is thought to be responsible for many of water’s unique properties. However, the nature of this structure, governed by hydrogen bonds, is currently unknown.

    Wikipedia: Water thread experiment

    Electric Fields [Unexpectedly] Move Water Droplets

    Making Ice at Room Temperature [With Electric Fields]

    Electric fields create hot ice

    Bouncing charged droplet in a strong electrical field
    Water is primarily a liquid under standard conditions, which is not predicted from its relationship to other analogous hydrides of the oxygen family in the periodic table, which are gases such as hydrogen sulfide. The elements surrounding oxygen in the periodic table, nitrogen, fluorine, phosphorus, sulfur and chlorine, all combine with hydrogen to produce gases under standard conditions. The reason that water forms a liquid is that oxygen is more electronegative than all of these elements with the exception of fluorine. Oxygen attracts electrons much more strongly than hydrogen, resulting in a net positive charge on the hydrogen atoms, and a net negative charge on the oxygen atom. The presence of a charge on each of these atoms gives each water molecule a net dipole moment. Electrical attraction between water molecules due to this dipole pulls individual molecules closer together, making it more difficult to separate the molecules and therefore raising the boiling point. This attraction is known as hydrogen bonding. The molecules of water are constantly moving in relation to each other, and the hydrogen bonds are continually breaking and reforming at timescales faster than 200 femtoseconds.[14] However, this bond is sufficiently strong to create many of the peculiar properties of water, such as those that make it integral to life.

    Electric life
    Living things emit electricity as well as heat. It may be difficult for you to feel this electricity, because air is an insulator. A conductive environment and special equipment are necessary for this electricity to be felt. Water, a natural conductor, and certain life forms that live in water and use the electrical currents in their bodies are examples of this. A living thing that can detect electricity in water and acts according to that sensation has a very effective sense.

    For example, sharks can detect all vibrations in water, changes in water temperature and salinity level, and minute changes in the electrical field set up by moving organisms. In addition, their large number of gel-filled cavities (Lorenzini ampules) are perfect electricity detectors. Along with rough rays, they use these detectors to hunt their prey and can perceive currents as small as one 20 billionth of a volt, a truly glorious ability. Imagine the batteries in an average house. Sharks would be able to detect the current emitted by just two 1.5 volt batteries beneath the sea from a distance of 3,000 km (1,864 miles) away.

    All plants and animals, whether single-celled or multicellular, from egg or seed to fully developed organism, possess an electrodynamic ‘life-field’ (L-field) that can be mapped at or close to the surface with appropriate voltmeters and electrodes. Its pattern changes during growth and development, correlating with body plan and organisation, as well as physiological and mental states. However, the source of the L-field is still unknown.

    New evidence suggests that the L-field is generated by and embodied in the quantum-coherent liquid crystalline water that makes up 70-90 % of organisms and cells and is essential for life.

    Water forms quantum coherent domains at ordinary temperatures and pressures. Within organisms, coherent domains become stabilized as liquid crystalline water on the vast amount of membrane and macromolecular surfaces, effectively aligning the entire body electrically to form a single uniaxial crystal. This liquid crystalline water makes life possible by enabling proteins and nucleic acids to act as quantum molecular machines that transform and transfer energy at close to 100% efficiency. It provides excitation energy to split water in photosynthesis, releasing oxygen for the teaming millions of air-breathing species that colonize the earth, at the same time generating electricity for intercommunication and the redox chemistry that powers the entire biosphere.

    Living water is the means, medium and message of life.
    The cells of most, perhaps all, plants are excitable. Stimuli such as chilling, heating, cutting, touching, electric stimulus or changes in external osmolarity result in action potentials, transient depolarizations of cell membrane which are electrotonically transmitted at rates of 10–40 mm/sec and which resemble primitive nerve action potentials1.

    The major conclusion of Bose11,13 was radical. As animals had receptors where stimuli were received, a conductor (the nerve) which electrically propagated the stimulus, and an effector, or terminal motor organ, so too did plants. A stimulus was transmitted electrically to the motor organ, the pulvinus in both Desmodium and Mimosa. The major conduction pathway (established with electric probe) for transmitting the electrical excitation was the phloem. Mechanical stimulation could be mimicked by electrical stimulation. Strong electric stimulus of the pulvinus made Mimosa leaves dip, without mechanical stimulation, and a cut in Desmodium stalk prevented the rhythmic leaf movements, but these were restored by an electric current passing through the pulvinus. Transmission of the response was strongly temperature-dependent and influenced by light-levels. Repeated stimuli meant fatiguing and loss of excitatory response.
    A typical demonstration used as evidence for the existence of these energy fields involved taking Kirlian photographs of a picked leaf at set intervals. The gradual withering of the leaf was thought to correspond with a decline in the strength of the aura. In some experiments, if a section of a leaf was torn away after the first photograph, a faint image of the missing section would sometimes remain when a second photograph was taken. If the imaging surface is cleaned of contaminants and residual moisture before the second image is taken, then no image of the missing section will appear.[35]
    The living aura theory is at least partially repudiated by demonstrating that leaf moisture content has a pronounced effect on the electric discharge coronas; more moisture creates larger, more dynamic corona discharges. As the leaf dehydrates, the coronas will naturally decrease in variability and intensity. As a result, the changing water content of the leaf can affect the so-called Kirlian aura. Kirlian's experiments did not provide evidence for an energy field other than the electric fields produced by chemical processes, and the streaming process of coronal discharges.[4]
    The L-field is a name proposed by the Yale Professor of Anatomy Harold Saxton Burr[1] for the electromagnetic field of any organism. Burr held that the study of this field offered great promise for medicine since it exhibited measurable qualities that might be used in prognosis of disease, mood and viability. The voltage measurements he used are not in doubt, but his conclusions are at odds with mainstream biology, and have not generally been accepted by the scientific community.
    Bioelectromagnetics, also known as bioelectromagnetism, is the study of the interaction between electromagnetic fields and biological entities. Areas of study include electrical or electromagnetic fields produced by living cells, tissues or organisms; for example, the cell membrane potential and the electric currents that flow in nerves and muscles, as a result of action potentials. Others include animal navigation utilizing the geomagnetic field; potential effects of man-made sources of electromagnetic fields like mobile phones; and developing new therapies to treat various conditions. The term can also refer to the ability of living cells, tissues, and organisms to produce electrical fields and the response of cells to electromagnetic fields.[1]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    And that was the science bit.

    Agni is fire (One headed god). But he is also Light and Heat (Two headed god). He is also sun and thunder and fire (Three headed god). He is father (galaxy, Svarog) and son (sun, Svarožič). But also father (sun, Svetovid) and son (fire, Svarožič). He is Svarog (sky and fire god), Perun (thunder god) and Svetovid (Sun god) but all these three gods are one and the same. The book of Veles says:

    "Jer tajna je velika, kako to Svarog biva u isto vreme i Perun i Svetovid." which means: "Because it is a great secret how come Sverog (hevenly and earthly fire) is at the same time Perun (thunder) and Svetovid (Sun)."

    The answer to this riddle is Triglav (three headed), trojan (triple), Hromi daba, Crom Dubh, Agni.



    Good night and god bless.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Hi all. I hope everyone is well and happy. Let's continue our little talk about Triglav (Agni).

    Triglav , Trojan, Trinity, Trimurti
    According to Branibor (now Brandenburg ) chronicles written in 1136 ad, the ruler of the area, Prince Pribislav destroyed a statue of Triglav after he was baptized. This statue of Triglav has previously been highly respected. No detailed description of the statue survived, and there is no description of rituals related to the veneration of this Statue. The only information that the chronicle gives us is that the God had three heads.
    Slightly more detailed information about Triglav was left to us by the biographers of the Bishop Otto fon Bramburg, who converted Western Slavs (Sorbs) in the South Baltic, in Pomerania. All three biographers ( Ebo , Herbord and an unnamed monk from the monastery of Priflinger ) have witnessed the existence of a three-headed idol in Volyn and Šćećin. Ebo said that the city of Volin is situated on the slopes of three hills, and that it has a temple dedicated to a deity with three heads, which was called God Triglav („...deo Triglavo dicitus, tricapitum habebat...“). The same author says that Otto von Bamberg destroyed the idols, by chopping the heads off with an axe. He then sent the three silver coated heads to the pope Calixto II in Rome, as evidence that his mission of converting Polabian Slavs (Sorbs) was successful. According to Ebo, Triglav is the highest Slavic God ( " summus Deus " ), the ruler of the three worlds (heaven , earth and the underworld). From this, we can conclude that the statue was made of wood, that it's three heads were encrusted in silver, and that it's heads were covered with the "tiara" or some kind of a hat made of gold, which covered the idol's eyes.
    In Szczecin things went a little differently. Bishop Otto fon Bamberg did manage to destroy the temple dedicated to Triglav, but the priests removed the statue of God which was entirely made of gold and managed to hide it in a hollow tree near the city. It is said that the Bishop did not manage to find this statue. Same authors ( Ebo , Herbord and monk from Priflinger) tell us that the animal dedicated to god Triglav was a black horse , which was used for divination. Triglav was also associated with spear and sword and was considered to be one of Slavic war gods. Some reports say that Triglav had three goats heads.

    Among thousands of Serbian folk songs and prayers collected by ethnologists during 19th century, we find many which talk about Triglav. The description of god Triglav from Serbian folk tradition corresponds closely to references to Triglav which we find in the "Book of Veles". They both identify Triglav as main deity and the oldest deity that there is.

    Serbian folk poetry:
    "... Ti junaci mladi hrabri,
    Velji vojni Triglavovi,
    Triglavovi silna Boga,
    Silna Boga najvećega,
    Boga stara Pra Pra Boga..."

    ...Those heroes young and brave
    great solders of Triglav
    Triglav, the mighty god
    Triglav the greatest god
    Triglav the "pra pra" (oldest) god...

    Book of Veles:
    "...Molimo se i klanjamo se prvom Triglavu i njemu veliku slavu pojemo...To je suština Triglava jer svi od njega potiču i njemu se opet vraćaju..."

    We are praying to and we are bowing in front the first Triglav and we are singing great praises to him...This is the essence of Triglav, because all there is comes from him and all to him returns...

    Serbian folk tradition tells us that Triglav is the ruler of all space and all time. He is the god of three worlds: the sky , the earth and the underworld. He is also the god of the past the present and future.
    "...Sa njegove tri velike glave,
    Sa tri glave velikim Triglavom,
    Što mi drma svetom tim prebelim,
    Na sve strane i ta sva vremena..."

    ...With his great three heads
    With three heads the great Triglav
    shakes (rules) this white world
    In all directions and in all times...

    "...Silen bora Triglavomu,
    Što mi sedit, ni zboruva,
    Dlgo mnogo što minuva,
    Dlgo mnogo što ća bidne,
    Dlgo mnogo što živue,
    De im imat do tri sili,
    Prva sila na nebesa,
    Druga sila na pod zemje,
    A treća mi na ta zemja..."

    Mighty god Triglav
    Who decides
    What happened
    What will happen
    what is happening
    And who has three forces
    First in the sky
    Second under the ground
    And third on the ground...

    Serbian folk tradition tells us that Triglav is the holy trinity. This means that for Serbs, Triglav is "the holy god, father, son and holy spirit".

    This next song, talks about the passing of the flower wreath, from St George (Mid spring), to St John (the summer solstice), to St peter, to Triglav (First week of August). The flower wreath represents the sun during spring and summer months. Triglav here is actually St Elijah. His feast day (2nd of August) falls in real mid Summer (maximum sun heat, maximum thunders) period. St Elijah is known i Serbia as Sveti Ilija (Sveti can mean saint but also shining) the thunderer, which shows that in Serbian tradition the Sun is associated with the thunder. St Elijah is actually Svetli Ilios, Shining Sun and his day is 2nd of August, Crom dubh day.
    "...Ivanjsko cveće petranjsko,
    Petrovsko cveće ivanjsko!
    Ivan ga bere te bere.
    Petar ga plete te plete.
    Daje ga silnu Triglavu,
    Triglavu svetoj trojici..."

    St John's flowers to St Petar's flowers
    St John picks the flowers
    St Petar makes wreath from them
    And gives the wreath to mighty Triglav
    Triglav the holy trinity...

    This is another song which refers to Triglav as the holy trinity:
    "...Ko prevari svoga druga,
    Svoga druga pobratima
    Satreo ga silni Ljelju:
    Svojim ocem strašnim Bogom.
    Strašnim Bogom Triglav Bogom,
    Triglavom svetom Trojicom..."

    ...Who betrays a friend
    A friend or a blood brother
    May mighty Ljelju destroy him
    With his father terible god
    Terible god Triglav
    Triglav the holy trinity...

    Serbian folk tradition also tells us that Triglav is the Creator, the Protector and the Destroyer of everything that there was, there is and that there will be:

    "...Naš gospodar Trigljav velji,
    Naš Stvoritelj i Držitelj
    I veliki Umoritelj..."

    Our lord Triglav the great
    Our creator, our protector (upholder, maintainer)
    and our great destroyer...

    "...Veliča smo Višnjega!
    Previšnjega i jasnjega!
    Triglav Boga najvećeg.
    Svetu Trojcu najjasnu.
    Stvoriteljicu najjaču.
    Održateljicu najkrepku.
    Rušiteljicu najstrašnu...."

    We celebrated Višnjega (The high god, the sky god)
    The highest and the brightest
    God triglav the greatest
    Holy trinity the shiniest
    Creator, the strongest
    protector (upholder, maintainer), the most robust
    Destroyer, the most terrible

    This song (prayer) actually identifies, gives names to the three faces of triglav:

    "...Da nam stoka bude zdrava
    Ta goveda i te ovce
    Ti jarići i jaganjci.
    Doratasti velji konji
    Što no nose te junake
    Mile borce Triglav bora5
    Triglav bora te Troice
    Višnjeg boga Stvoritelja
    Jakog Žive rušitelja
    I Branjanja Branitelja..."

    ...May our cattle be healthy
    All the cows and all the sheep
    All the kids and all the lambs
    All the great big horses
    Which carry our heroes
    Dear solders of the god Triglav
    god Triglav the holy trinity
    Vishnji god, the creator
    Strong Živa the destrojer
    and Branjanj the protector...

    In Indian mythology, Trimurti consists of Vishnu, Shiva, and Brahma. In Serbian mythology, Triglav consists of Višnji, Živa, Branjanj.

    In Serbian the meanings of the names of the holy trinity (Trimurti, Triglav) members (Višnji, Živa, Branjanj) actually correspond to their role in Serbian Trinity:

    Vishnji (meaning "one who is up high", from vis "high"), the sun.
    Branjanj (meaning the protector, supporter, from bran "protection", braniti "to protect"), the fire.
    Živa (meaning alive, living from Živ "alive, life"), the giver and taker of life.

    Serbian folk tradition also tells us that Triglav lives in India and that India was the home of the Serbs, which Serbs had to leave because of a huge political or religious upheaval of some kind, probably a religious civil war which plunged India into chaos. The fact that Triglav is in India identifies Triglav as Agni and Serbs as Arians or part of R1a Arians.

    How old is this folk memory? What time and what migration from India to Europe does it describe? We don't know for sure. The racial memory these folk songs preserve could either be the memory of the original migration of the "Indo Europeans" to Europe, or the Skythian migration to Europe or any other one in between. Either way they are thousands of years old and are older than the 4th century bc. How do we know this? Because in the 4th century bc Alexander Karan (later known as Alexander the great), said in one of his speeches that he was going to India, to reconquer the land of his forefathers. So he was aware of the story of the exodus from India. The fact that Serbs have preserved, in their folk tradition, the memory of the migration from India through all these millennia, is astounding, and another proof that culture and language are a lot more resistant then most people think. The fact that some of the songs recorded by ethnographers are actually prayers to Triglav, is even more amazing. This means that Serbs have managed to preserve the actual Agni (Triglav) cult for thousands of years outside of India. This can only be possible if Triglav (Agni) was originally Serbian, Slavic, Indo European, R1a god, which was brought to India by the invading Serbs, Slavs, Indo Europeans, R1a people. At some later stage Serbian people had to leave India and come to Europe, to the Balkans, and they brought with them the memory of India, their home, as well as their god Triglav.

    Here is one of the folk songs which tells the story about the Serbian exodus from India. The song is called "The saints are dividing the treasure" and in it Ognjena Marija (Fiery Mary) sister of St Petar, St Nicolas, St John, St Ilia and St Pantelija tells her brothers why she is crying:

    Al' govori Blažena Marija:
    "A moj brate, Gromovnik Ilija!
    "Kako ne ću suze proljevati,
    "Kad ja idem iz zemlje Inđije,
    "Iz Inđije iz zemlje proklete?
    "U Inđiji teško bezakonje:
    "Ne poštuje mlađi starijega,
    "Ne slušaju đeca roditelja;
    "Roditelji porod pogazili,
    "Crn im bio obraz na divanu
    "Pred samijem Bogom istinijem!
    "Kum svog kuma na sudove ćera,
    "I dovede lažljive svjedoke
    "I bez vjere i bez čiste duše,
    "I oglobi kuma vjenčanoga,
    "Vjenčanoga ili krštenoga;
    "A brat brata na mejdan zaziva;
    "Đever snasi o sramoti radi,
    "A brat sestru sestrom ne doziva."

    ...O my brother, Thunder god Ilija
    how can i not cry
    when i am coming from country of India
    from India the accursed country.
    In India there is complete lawlessness:
    younger is not respecting the older,
    children are not respecting parents,
    they have black cheeks before the god of truth,
    a godfather is betraying godson,
    brother is fighting brother,
    brother in law is sleeping with sister in law,
    and brother does not call his sister a sister...

    And here is another one, which is actual Christmas time (Winter solstice, the birth of young sun) prayer:
    Siva Živa siva silna,
    Siva silna golubice!
    da kuda si putovala?
    Odgovara Siva Živa
    Siva silna golubica:
    „Ja sam tamo putovala
    U Inđiju našu zemlju.
    Prolećela Hindušana
    I tu Globu Tartariju
    Crni Hinduš i Tartaru.
    Letila sam Gospodaru
    Našem silnom Triglav boru
    Te gledala što nam čini
    Što nam čini zapoveda.”
    Što činjaše naš gospodar,
    Naš gospodar Triglav velji,
    Naš Stvoritelj i Držitelj
    I veliki Umoritelj?
    Odgovori Siva Živa
    Bela silna golubica:
    „Naš gospodar lepo čini
    Trima kola u zučinje
    I četvrto zlato meri.
    Da pravimo zlatne čaše
    Zlatne čaše i srebrne
    Da molimo mladog Boga
    I Božića Svarožića
    Da nam dade svako dobro
    Ponajveće dugi život.
    Dugi život dobro zdravlje
    I bogatstvo što ga nosi.
    Božić poje po svu zemlju
    Ne boji se Hindušana
    Niti crnog Tatarana
    Ni goleme te pustare
    A proklete Globe crne
    Globe crne Tartarije,
    I te gadne Mandžurije.
    Slava mu je do nebesa,
    Do prestola Triglav Boga.
    Brada mu je do pojasa,
    Do pojasa sredi zemlje
    Srpske zemlje Raške svetle.
    Da se rode muška deca
    Ljuti vojni Davorovi
    Davorovi i Jarila“

    ...gray Živa, mighty gray,
    mighty gray dove!
    where did you travel?
    and gray Živa, mighty gray dove, answers:

    "I traveled all the way
    To India our country.
    I flew over Hindustan
    And over Tatarstan
    Black Hindus and Tatarus.
    I flew to our Master
    Our mighty God Triglav
    And I watched what he was doing
    What he was doing and ordering."

    What did our lord do
    Our master Great Triglav,
    Our Creator and Maintainer
    And Great Destroyer?

    Replies gray Živa,
    White mighty dove:

    "Our Lord is doing good...
    He is weighing gold
    for us to make the gold cups
    Gold and silver cups
    So we can pray to the young God
    Young God Svarožić (Winter solstice sun, baby sun, Dabog, the Giving god)
    To give us everything good
    Most of all long life.
    Long life good health
    And wealth that God Dabog carries with him.
    Young god Svarožić (Dabog) sings in all the land
    He is not afraid of Hindustan
    Neither is he afraid of black Tataria
    Nor the immense wasteland
    A bloody black Globa
    black Globa Tataria (I don't know what Globa means, but it could be Gobi desert),
    And that nasty Manchuria.
    His Glory (Dabog's) rises to the skies,
    All the way to the throne of God Triglav.
    His beard is down to his waist,
    To his waist which is in the center of the land
    The Serbian bright land of Ras.
    May it (Serbia, Ras) give birth to male children
    Great solders of Davor
    Of Davor and of Yarilo...

    It is incredible to think that Serbs managed to preserve the memory of their life in India and the belief in Trimurti in the middle of Europe for thousands of years.

    There were some subtle differences though between Indian Trimurti and Serbian Triglav. In Indian mythology, Brahma is the creator whereas that role in Serbian Triglav is played by Vishnji bog (Vishnu). Both Shiva and Živa seemed to have the same role in both Trinities.

    I decided to go and investigate the whole thing more. Why was there a difference? Who got it right and who got it wrong?

    To be continued :)

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Branjan (Brahma)

    The fire is the protector and supporter of the human race. In the winter times it is fire alone that protects people from dying from cold. At night the fire protects people from wild animals. Fire also supports us. We use it for cooking, burning forest for arable land and forging weapons and tools and many many other things.

    If we look at Sanskrit, we see that Brahma means sacred, divine. Fire was considered sacred and divine. It was god's gift to humanity and once found (the feather of a fire bird) it was carefully preserved, as the chance of finding another feather of a fire bird was extremely small. This is where eternal flame practice originated from. Fire was divine, as only gods could make it.

    The root brahm means to go, to move, but the root brham means to spin, to rotate, which is the action performed during the fire making using two pieces of wood.

    I will now go through Brahmā Wiki page ( ) and give you the reasons why i believe that Serbian understanding of Branjan as protector (fire) is the original meaning of Brahma:
    Brahmā is clad in red clothes. Brahmā is traditionally depicted with four heads, four faces made of gold, and four arms. He also wears a golden crown.

    The red and gold are the colors of fire. Fire has golden head and red clothes.

    Brahmā (Sanskrit: ब्रह्मा; IAST: Brahmā) is the Hindu god (deva) of creation and one of the Trimūrti, the others being Viṣņu and Śiva. According to the Brahmā Purāņa, he is the father of Manu, and from Manu all human beings are descended. In the Rāmāyaņa and the Mahābhārata, he is often referred to as the progenitor or great grandsire of all human beings.

    In Serbian tradition it is Dabog, Hromi Daba, Svarožić who is the father of Van (the shiny, white one, the light) who is the ancestor of the Serbs.
    Brahma has four faces looking at four directions of the world. Brahmā also holds a string of prayer beads called the 'akṣamālā' (literally "garland of eyes").

    In Slavic tradition Svetovid, Vishnji, has four faces because he is constantly watching over the world. He is the Eye in the sky, the Sun. Name Svetovid can mean many things but they are all connected with light and sight:
    Svet + vid = world + watch = The one who sees everything, the one who knows everything, the one who watches over the world. Svet + vid = Light + Sight = The one who shines the light so the world can be seen. Actually in Serbian the word Svet means Light and World, as World is what is lit up by the light of the Sun and therefore visible. Svetovid = Sveti Vid = Holy Light, Holy Sight, Sun, the high one, Vishnji.
    Brahmā is often identified with Prajāpati, a Vedic deity.
    Lord Brahmā, Lord Vishnu, Lord Shiva and Maharaj Manu are considered Prajapaties. Prajapati also means protector & preserver (King).

    The fact that both the Trimurti and the people are listed as Prajapaties clearly shows that Prajapati is linked with fire, creation of fire. Trimurti (Agni) was original possessor of fire, the fire itself. So original Prajapati was Agni. Then Many (Man) learned how to "bring fire out of it's hiding place". And from then on Man joined the Prajapaties.

    Prajapati does mean creator, maker, progenitor. If we look at root "praja" it means:

    praja - bringing forth, bearing , posterity, descendant, semen, era, progeny, procreation, subjects, family, offspring, propagation, animal, man, children, race, birth, generation, mankind, subject of a king, seed, people, husband

    These are all things linked to human creation, family, society, race, all things that support us, protect us. Like external fire which gives us warmth and protects us from cold and wild animals, internal fire gives us ability to procreate. Sexual creation is closely related with fire creation as we will see later.

    Everything is pointing to Branjanj (Brahma) being the fire part of the holy trinity, and that Indians have switched its place with Vishnji (Vishnu) because they did not understand the meaning of the Original Trinity that the "Indo Europeans" brought with them to India.

    I will return to Branjan (Brahma), Fire later, when i present my understanding of the development of fire worship and it's influence on the development of Agni. Because after all Agni is fire...

    To be continued :)

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    I believe that Fire Bird story really talks about human hunt for fire started by lightning, from the time before humans could light fire themselves. I also believe that Agni story talks about the magical moment when humans learned how to make fire for the first time. So I went to check when the fire was supposed to have been used and made for the first time. When i saw 1.5 million years before present as the date for the first use of fire by humans and when i saw 125,000 years before present for the start of habitual use of fire, I thought that something there must be wrong. No story, not even the story about first making of fire, can survive 125,000 years not to mention 1.5 million years. But the story did survive to our time, so the first time a man made fire must have happened much later, much closer to today.

    So, when did people started using fire, and when did they make it for the first time?
    Archaeologist believe that people started using fire over a million years ago.

    Ash and charred bone, the earliest known evidence of controlled use of fire, reveal that human ancestors may have used fire a million years ago, a discovery that researchers say will shed light on this major turning point in human evolution.

    Scientists analyzed material from Wonderwerk Cave in South Africa, a massive cavern located near the edge of the Kalahari Desert. Previous excavations there had uncovered an extensive record of human occupation.

    The research team's analysis suggests that materials in the cave were not heated above about 1,300 degrees Fahrenheit (700 degrees Celsius). This is consistent with preliminary findings that grasses, brushes and leaves were burned for these fires — such fuel would not have been capable of hotter flames.

    Fire would have helped early humans stay warm and keep nighttime predators at bay, and enabled cooking, which would have made food more digestible. In addition, "socializing around a campfire might actually be an essential aspect of what makes us human," Chazan said. "The control of fire would have been a major turning point in human evolution."

    Now i don't know if any of you have ever lit up a fire. I did many times. Grasses, brushes and leaves will catch fire and burn very easily. And very quickly. A pile of grasses, brushes and leaves will disappear in flash. And will leave no coals or embers, meaning it will die completely. If all these early humans burned were grasses, brushes and leaves, there wasn't much cooking or socializing around a campfire going on in that cave. For cooking and socializing around a campfire, you need long lasting fire which is fed branches of trees and lumps of wood, logs. Wood fires burn with higher temperature, they burn slowly and they leave behind coals and ember which can be preserved smoldering until the next day. All this leads me to believe that if there was any actual use of fire this far back in time, it was an occasional use of natural fire started by lightning. A burning branch was brought to the cave and left there until it burned out. Maybe even few sticks were added to it. But that would have been it.

    What makes me believe that humans did not acquire full knowledge of fire until much later is that for next 600,000 years it is almost impossible to find any hard evidence of mass use of fire by any of the existing human species. It seems that humans in hot countries didn't need it because it was always hot, and humans in cold countries like neanderthals in Europe evolved to be able to stand cold without need for fire. Like some Irish people that i know who don't own jumpers or jackets or coats and walk around in shirts all year round no matter what the weather is. :) I am actually not joking. Cold resistance is probably genetic and it is worth investigating.

    Wil Roebroeks and Paola Villa [1] review the evidence for human control and use of fire in the archaeology of Europe during the Middle Pleistocene (130,000-780,000 years ago) and earlier. They observe that no evidence of human-controlled fire occurs in Europe before 400,000 years ago. This raises a puzzle: How did humans occupy the northern part of Europe without fire?
    The argument about the antiquity of fire is not new. There is very early evidence of fire at Swartkrans, Koobi Fora, and Chesowanja, which includes burned bones and heated artifacts, along with clay nodules that show evidence of heating as high as 400 degrees Celsius. The criticism of these early finds (reviewed by James [2]) centers around the difficulty of distinguishing human-made fire from natural bush fires. The association of the fire with artifacts can be readily explained: archaeologists only look for evidence of fire where they already have artifacts. The remaining question is whether artifacts or bones have been heated to temperatures hotter than those possible in bush fires, thereby providing evidence of human involvement. Burned bone from Swartkrans at least did reach such temperatures, seemingly unlikely without human involvement given their presence in the cave. I tend to think that humans did control fire early in some cases.
    Roebroeks and Villa do not dispute possible earlier evidence of fire, but claim that it was not habitual. Or to put it another way, some early humans may have used fire, but many or most did not do so. The lack of fire seems particularly surprising in the northern latitudes of Europe, where sites like Happisburgh (and Pakefield) show evidence of human habitation in the late Lower Pleistocene. Their review of the early sites is really worth reading and impressively compact. Nonetheless, I can't quote it in full; it's just too much text to extract. After a discussion of the earliest archaeological occurrences, they turn to the long sequences from Arago and Gran Dolina, where we really should expect to see some evidence of fire if people were using it.

    In their work "On the earliest evidence for habitual use of fire in Europe", Wil Roebroeks and Paola Villa say:
    "Arago and Gran Dolina contain long sequences and large quantities of lithic and faunal remains, subjected to taphonomic analyses (34–36). Their settings are comparable to the ones that, in later times, have often provided strong evidence of fire, such as Bau de l’Aubesier, Grotte XVI, and Lazaret in France; Bolomor Cave in Spain (Dataset S1); and Middle Paleolithic/Middle Stone age caves in Israel and in South Africa. Traces of fire have been found in the upper part of the sequence at Arago, in layers younger than 350 ka. No charcoal, no burnt bones, nor any other evidence of fire have been reported from any of the assemblages from the lower levels (dated to MIS 10–14). No charred bones or heated artifacts have been reported from the Gran Dolina sequence (TD4– TD10). Rare charcoal particles have been found in thin sections of the TD6 sediments, but these sediments originate from the exterior of the cave, and there is evidence of low-energy transport (37); thus, the charcoal may not be in situ. However, the high density of human, faunal, and lithic remains as well as their state of preservation and refitting studies (38, 39) clearly indicate an occupation in situ with little postdepositional disturbance. The absence of any heated material from the long sequences of Gran Dolina and Arago, both documenting hominin occupations over several hundred thousand years (36, 40), is striking. This is a strong pattern, which can be tested by future work at other hominin habitation sites. We suggest that the European record displays a strong signal, in the sense that, from ~400 to 300 ka ago, many proxies indicate a habitual use of fire, but from the preceding 700 ka of hominin presence in Europe, we have no evidence for fire use."

    For next 200,000 years from 400,000 years to 200,000 years before now, we only have proxi evidence for actual fire use, meaning no actual hearths and burned organic material. Then around 200,000 years before now we start seeing fire hearths what looks like fire hearths, or at least areas where fire burned repeatedly.
    For a long time, we were pretty dumb. Humans did little but make "the same very boring stone tools for almost 2 million years," he said. Then, only about 150,000 years ago, a different type of spurt happened — our big brains suddenly got smart. We started innovating. We tried different materials, such as bone, and invented many new tools, including needles for beadwork. Responding to, presumably, our first abstract thoughts, we started creating art and maybe even religion.

    To understand what caused the cognitive spurt, Khaitovich and colleagues examined chemical brain processes known to have changed in the past 200,000 years. Comparing apes and humans, they found the most robust differences were for processes involved in energy metabolism.

    The finding suggests that increased access to calories spurred our cognitive advances, said Khaitovich, carefully adding that definitive claims of causation are premature.

    The research is detailed in the August 2008 issue of Genome Biology.

    The extra calories may not have come from more food, but rather from the emergence of pre-historic "Iron Chefs;" the first hearths also arose about 200,000 years ago.

    This is a controversial theory, and a lot of anthropologists are saying that humans must have used fire for cooking for over a million years. But i believe that the 200,000 years before now is probably right as it fits with other archaeological and genetic data. If we try to find reason why people started to cook food, maybe the answer lies in opportunistic exploitation of animal kills by predators after wildfires.

    Fires provide unintended benefits to animals. Even at the time a wildfire is still burning, birds of prey (such as falcons and kites)--the first types of predators to appear at fires--are attracted to the flames to hunt fleeing animals and insects. Later, land-animal predators appear when the ashes are smoldering and dying out to pick out the burnt victims for consumption. Others, such as deer and bovine animals appear after that to lick the ashes for their salt content. Notable as well is that most mammals appear to enjoy the heat radiated at night at sites of recently burned-out fires. It would have been inconceivable, therefore, that human beings, being similarly observant and opportunistic creatures, would not also have partaken of the dietary windfall provided by wildfires they came across. And thus, even before humans had learned to control fire purposefully--and without here getting into the later stages of control over fire--their early passive exposures to it would have already introduced them, like the other animals, to the role fire could play in obtaining edible food and providing warmth.

    Goudsblom, Johan (1992) Fire and Civilization. London, England; New York, New York: Penguin Books.

    So first charred food remains could have easily been brought to human camp sites from bush fires, covered in ash and bits of burned wood and grass. But also these first bush fire roast probably gave people a taste for cooked food and gave them idea to try to do the same themselves by actually dropping killed animals into bush fires and later camp fires. I find this information about falcons being the first birds to arrive at the site of a bush fire very interesting. I wander if this common sighting of falcons near lightning caused fires is what made falcons the chosen bird of sky gods?

    One interesting thing about these early fires is that in Europe, people used bones as fuel.


    Why was bone used as fuel? Because humans at that time could not cut wood. Without wood fire can't last. There are only so many dry branches you can find. Then you have to start cutting and drying wood. At that time, people still did not have hafted axes necessary for cutting down trees, stripping them of branches and chopping them into logs. This explains why bones were used as fuel even at sites where wood was plentiful.

    What bones did these people use? Probably Mammoth bones and bones of other giant mammal which lay around everywhere. These bones were so common in places, that people used them to build huts.

    At Mezhirich in 1965, a farmer dug up the lower jawbone of a mammoth while in the process of expanding his cellar. Further excavations revealed the presence of four huts, made up of a total of 149 mammoth bones. These dwellings, dating back some 15,000 years, were determined to have been some of the oldest shelters known to have been constructed by pre-historic man. Mezhirich or Mezhyrich or Межиріч, is a village in central Ukraine near the point where the Rosava River flows into the Ros.


    These huts date from 15,000 years ago at the end of Mamooth era. Dating mammoth bone dwellings has been problematic. The earliest dates were between 20,000 and 14,000 years ago, but most of these have been re dated to between 14,000-15,000 years ago. However, the oldest known MBS is from the Molodova site, a Neanderthal Mousterian occupation located on the Dniester River of Ukraine, and dated some 30,000 years earlier than most of the known Mammoth Bone Settlements. You can imagine that there were a lot more giant bones available for burning all over Europe before 70 thousand bc:
    The woolly mammoth (M. primigenius) was the last species of the genus. Most populations of the woolly mammoth in North America and Eurasia, as well as all the Columbian mammoths (M. columbi) in North America, died out around the time of the last glacial retreat, as part of a mass extinction of megafauna in northern Eurasia and the Americas. Until recently, the last woolly mammoths were generally assumed to have vanished from Europe and southern Siberia about 12,000 years ago, but new findings show some were still present there about 10,000 years ago. Slightly later, the woolly mammoths also disappeared from continental northern Siberia.[11] A small population survived on St. Paul Island, Alaska, up until 3750 BC,[2][12][13] and the small[14] mammoths of Wrangel Island survived until 1650 BC.[15][16] Recent research of sediments in Alaska indicates mammoths survived on the American mainland until 10,000 years ago.[17]
    A definitive explanation for their extinction has yet to be agreed upon. The warming trend (Holocene) that occurred 12,000 years ago, accompanied by a glacial retreat and rising sea levels, has been suggested as a contributing factor. Forests replaced open woodlands and grasslands across the continent. The available habitat may have been reduced for some megafaunal species, such as the mammoth. However, such climate changes were nothing new; numerous very similar warming episodes had occurred previously within the ice age of the last several million years without producing comparable megafaunal extinctions, so climate alone is unlikely to have played a decisive role.[18][19] The spread of advanced human hunters through northern Eurasia and the Americas around the time of the extinctions was a new development, and thus might have contributed significantly.[18][19]
    Whether the general mammoth population died out for climatic reasons or due to overhunting by humans is controversial.[20] Another theory suggests mammoths may have fallen victim to an infectious disease. A combination of climate change and hunting by humans may be a possible explanation for their extinction. Homo erectus is known to have consumed mammoth meat as early as 1.8 million years ago.[21] This may mean only successful scavenging, rather than actual hunting. A site in Ukraine suggests Neanderthals built dwellings using mammoth bones.[22]

    At that time people were able to make stone tip spears and arrows, but not yet hafted axes. All axes like blades from this period are hand held and are not suitable for cutting wood.
    Paleolithic humans made tools of stone, bone, and wood.[17] The earliest Paleolithic stone tool industry, the Olduwan, was developed by the earliest members of the genus Homo such as Homo habilis, around 2.6 million years ago.[24] It contained tools such as choppers, burins and awls. It was completely replaced around 250,000 years ago by the more complex Acheulean industry, which was first conceived by Homo ergaster around 1.8 or 1.65 million years ago.[25] The most recent Lower Paleolithic (Acheulean) implements completely vanished from the archeological record around 100,000 years ago and were replaced by more complex Middle Paleolithic/Middle Stone Age tool kits such as the Mousterian and the Aterian industries.[26]
    Lower Paleolithic humans used a variety of stone tools, including hand axes and choppers. Although they appear to have used hand axes often, there is disagreement about their use. Interpretations range from cutting and chopping tools, to digging implements, flake cores, the use in traps and a purely ritual significance, maybe in courting behavior. William H. Calvin has suggested that some hand axes could have served as "killer Frisbees" meant to be thrown at a herd of animals at a water hole so as to stun one of them. There are no indications of hafting, and some artifacts are far too large for that. Thus, a thrown hand axe would not usually have penetrated deeply enough to cause very serious injuries. Nevertheless, it could have been an effective weapon for defense against predators. Choppers and scrapers were likely used for skinning and butchering scavenged animals and sharp ended sticks were often obtained for digging up edible roots. Presumably, early humans used wooden spears as early as five million years ago to hunt small animals, much as their relatives, chimpanzees, have been observed to do in Senegal, Africa.[27] Lower Paleolithic humans constructed shelters such as the possible wood hut at Terra Amata.
    Fire was used by the Lower Paleolithic hominid Homo erectus/Homo ergaster as early as 300,000 or 1.5 million years ago and possibly even earlier by the early Lower Paleolithic (Oldowan) hominid Homo habilis and/or by robust australopithecines such as Paranthropus.[2] However, the use of fire only became common in the societies of the following Middle Stone Age/Middle Paleolithic Period.[1] Use of fire reduced mortality rates and provided protection against predators.[28] Early hominids may have begun to cook their food as early as the Lower Paleolithic (c. 1.9 million years ago) or at the latest in the early Middle Paleolithic (c. 250,000 years ago).[29] Some scientists have hypothesized that Hominids began cooking food to defrost frozen meat, which would help ensure their survival in cold regions.[29]
    The Lower Paleolithic hominid Homo erectus possibly invented rafts (c. 800,000 or 840,000 BP) to travel over large bodies of water, which may have allowed a group of Homo erectus to reach the island of Flores and evolve into the small hominid Homo floresiensis. However, this hypothesis is disputed within the anthropological community.[30][31] The possible use of rafts during the Lower Paleolithic may indicate that Lower Paleolithic Hominids such as Homo erectus were more advanced than previously believed, and may have even spoken an early form of modern language.[30] Supplementary evidence from Neanderthal and Modern human sites located around the Mediterranean Sea such as Coa de sa Multa (c. 300,000 BP) has also indicated that both Middle and Upper Paleolithic humans used rafts to travel over large bodies of water (i.e. the Mediterranean Sea) for the purpose of colonizing other bodies of land.[30][32]
    Around 200,000 BP, Middle Paleolithic Stone tool manufacturing spawned a tool making technique known as the prepared-core technique, that was more elaborate than previous Acheulean techniques.[3] This technique increased efficiency by allowing the creation of more controlled and consistent flakes.[3] It allowed Middle Paleolithic humans to create stone tipped spears, which were the earliest composite tools, by hafting sharp, pointy stone flakes onto wooden shafts. In addition to improving tool making methods, the Middle Paleolithic also saw an improvement of the tools themselves that allowed access to a wider variety and amount of food sources. For example microliths or small stone tools or points were invented around 70,000 or 65,000 BP and were essential to the invention of bows and spear throwers in the following Upper Paleolithic period.[28] Harpoons were invented and used for the first time during the late Middle Paleolithic (c.90,000 years ago); the invention of these devices brought fish into the human diets, which provided a hedge against starvation and a more abundant food supply.[32][33] Thanks to their technology and their advanced social structures, Paleolithic groups such as the Neanderthals who had a Middle Paleolithic level of technology, appear to have hunted large game just as well as Upper Paleolithic modern humans[34] and the Neanderthals in particular may have likewise hunted with projectile weapons.[35] Nonetheless, Neanderthal use of projectile weapons in hunting occurred very rarely (or perhaps never) and the Neanderthals hunted large game animals mostly by ambushing them and attacking them with mêlée weapons such as thrusting spears rather than attacking them from a distance with projectile weapons.[20][36]
    During the Upper Paleolithic, further inventions were made, such as the net (c. 22,000 or 29,000 BP)[28] bolas,[37] the spear thrower (c.30,000 BP), the bow and arrow (c. 25,000 or 30,000 BP)[2] and the oldest example of ceramic art, the Venus of Dolní Věstonice (c. 29,000–25,000 BCE).[2] Early dogs were domesticated, sometime between 30,000 BP and 14,000 BP, presumably to aid in hunting.[38] However, the earliest instances of successful domestication of dogs may be much more ancient than this. Evidence from canine DNA collected by Robert K. Wayne suggests that dogs may have been first domesticated in the late Middle Paleolithic around 100,000 BP or perhaps even earlier.[39] Archeological evidence from the Dordogne region of France demonstrates that members of the European early Upper Paleolithic culture known as the Aurignacian used calendars (c. 30,000 BP). This was a lunar calendar that was used to document the phases of the moon. Genuine solar calendars did not appear until the following Neolithic period.[40] Upper Paleolithic cultures were probably able to time the migration of game animals such as wild horses and deer.[33] This ability allowed humans to become efficient hunters and to exploit a wide variety of game animals.[33] Recent research indicates that the Neanderthals timed their hunts and the migrations of game animals long before the beginning of the Upper Paleolithic.[34]

    Some anthropologists and archaeologists believe that they have found proof that fire was used as early as 160 thousand years ago to temper stones used for making of stone tools:
    Brown and colleagues discovered the remains of tools that had been made using fire at archaeological sites in South Africa. The tools were made out of a stone called silcrete. Some of the earliest examples could date back to 164,000 years ago, and the researchers found that by 72,000 years ago this technique was seemingly common for silcrete tools.

    The heat-treated tools look almost like stone razor blades, and are small enough that they could have been set into a handle.

    "It’s a big debate to figure out what people were doing with these things," Brown told LiveScience. "Some people argue that they are the first arrowheads. Other people argue that they were set in a handle and used as knives."

    To make the tools, early humans would have had to bury the stone beneath a fire, then slowly heat it up, keep it at a high temperature for hours, and then let it cool. The process was complicated and could take one to two days of continuous heating.

    The heat transforms the stone so that it's harder and more brittle, which allows it to be more easily chipped away into a sharper edge. It also gives the stone a special sheen, which helped the archaeologists identify the tools as resulting from fire treatment.

    "The most noticeable thing about heat-treated stone is that it has a luster or a gloss to it that’s fairly distinctive," Brown said. "A stone that's heated will only show that gloss if it's been flaked after it's heated."

    However it is quite possible that the stones were affected by natural forest fires while buried under forest floor. They were then dug out and chipped into tools. Or the stones could have been close to the fire by accident:


    Knowing that people at that time still could not cut trees and use them as fuel, means that people had very little chance to sustain strong constant controlled fire for long enough period (days) to affect the stones in such a way.

    I read recently a very interesting article about lightning strike distribution. It seems that 70% of all lightning strikes occur between the tropics, the area +30 to -30 degrees latitude. Here is a global map of lightning frequency--strikes/km2/yr. The high lightning areas are on land located in the tropics. Areas with almost no lightning are the arctic and antarctic closely followed by the oceans with only 0.1 to 1 strikes/km2/yr there.


    So in certain areas in the world we get over 70 lightning strikes per year per square kilometer. This means that a chance of finding natural fire in these areas is extremely high. In these areas people probably learned how to use fire quite early. They actually didn't need to know how to make fire, only how to transport it and sustain it, because there was likely a smoldering tree somewhere within hundred mile radius on any given day. Not every lightning strike causes fire, but a lot of them do, especially in hot dry weather. All you had to do is look for smoke, then go and get a burning branch. Which actually isn't that easy at all when you think about it. Have you ever seen a bush fire? You don't want to get anywhere near it for any reason. And smart humans followed smart animals and as soon as they saw or smelt smoke they went as far as possible from it. Even if it was a single burning bush or a tree, bushes and trees burn outwards. There is no easy way to get at the burning branch while it is burning. So what early humans needed to find in order to obtain fire was the remnant of fire with only few smoldering branches and half burning branches. Not an easy task.

    Imagine now that early people were able to find natural fires only couple of times a year. If they brought the fire to their shelter and kept it going for even one night, that would have left enough charcoal and ash to give picture of habitual fire use. Africa actually has the more lightning strikes than any other place in the world, and the place where we think first humans originated is right bang in the middle of lightning central. Compare this human spreading map with the map of lightning frequency. You can see that migration routes from south east Africa to Australia via south east Asia go through the areas of with the highest lightning strike concentration. I don't think this is coincidental.

    Genetic studies and fossil evidence show that archaic Homo sapiens evolved to anatomically modern humans solely in Africa, between 200,000 and 150,000 years ago,[2] that members of one branch of Homo sapiens left Africa by between 125,000 and 60,000 years ago, and that over time these humans replaced earlier human populations such as Neanderthals and Homo erectus.[3] The date of the earliest successful "out of Africa" migration (earliest migrants with living descendants) has generally been placed at 60,000 years ago as suggested by genetics, although migration out of the continent may have taken place as early as 125,000 years ago according to Arabian archaeology finds of tools in the region.[4] A 2013 paper reported that a previously unknown lineage had been found, which pushed the estimated date for the most recent common ancestor (Y-MRCA) back to 338,000 years ago.[5]

    It is interesting that the latest common ancestor data points to 400,000 bn as the likely date when modern human emerged in Africa. This is also about the time when first proxy evidence of fire use is beginning to emerge. There are some experiments that show that exposion of living organisms to strong electromagnetic fields can quickly and drastically alter their genetic structure, something like turbo evolution. Is it possible that something like that actually happened in African land of lightning? Did gods really give us humans "the spark of life" literally? Were we in the end really created by god Agni?

    It is possible that in those areas with plenty of lightning caused natural fire, people learned how to use this natural fires in a controlled way. They probably very quickly learned that fire is like a living thing. It requires feeding to be sustained. Over time they probably learned that certain things burn, and some smolder and some don't burn and some actually kill fire. Figuring out that it is wood and grass that fire likes to eat was relatively easy, as they saw fire burning in the wild on bushes, trees and grasses. Figuring out that it had to be dry wood, leaves and branches probably took time, and a lot of choking on smoke. If the areas with lots of natural lightning are also dry, like sub tropic, sub desert, savannah areas, then apart from natural lighters, people also had a lot of dead dry wood good enough for firewood to play with. Because people at that time only had hand held axes, they were not able to chop the wood into small logs, so all they could use was what they could break and carry with them. The expression "collecting fire wood" means finding dry dead branches that you can use for fire. So It is possible that some small isolated communities did discover how to get fire, bring it to a cave and sustain it by feeding it dry branches. But in the absence of strong community, complex spoken and written language, that knowledge is easily lost and people might have had to rediscover it many times over. Knowing how to get and sustain fire is hard enough. Knowing how to make fire is in a completely different league of problems. Even the simplest fire starting technique is more complex then anything early humans were capable of. Not to mention that people only tend to invent things when they need them, and if you have natural fires all around you, why would you bother inventing a way to make it?

    So starting from 400,000 bc, we have proxy (indirect) evidence of sporadic habitual use of fire. It is only from 200,000 years bc or there abouts, that we see firm evidence of habitual use of fire. Word habitual is very important here. It means frequent. How frequent? Every time there is a lightning strike somewhere close by and we can obtain burning branch to start the fire, and for as long as we can sustain it with available fire wood or other combustible material? Or every day? We actually don't know and have no way of knowing. What we have to work with are sites identified as hearths by layers of dirt mixed with charcoal particles which go to certain dept. We have no way of finding out how often fires were lit up in that spot. You would expect that people who know how to use fire would realize that you need to clean the ashes from the hearth from time to time. Anyone with a fireplace will know that. Some of the "fire hearths" are supposed to be hundreds of thousands of years in use. That is practically impossible without constant cleaning of the ashes. How do you clean the ashes from a cave? You kick it out, throw it out. That would leave charcoal and ash traces all over the cave from the fire place to the entrance of the cave (as anyone who has a fireplace also knows) and it would have saturated the surrounding soil with ash and charcoal? Is this what we find around the identified early fire hearth sites that were in habitual use? I don't know but i doubt it. I would say that up until 50,000 years ago and maybe even later, any use of fire was opportunistic use of natural fires when available and was very rare. Again genetic data points to period after 50,000 bn as the period when people started using fire frequently. This is the time when our resistance to air pollution has developed:
    The ability to control fire was a dramatic change in the habits of early humans. Making fire to generate heat and light made it possible for people to cook food, increasing the variety and availability of nutrients. The heat produced would also help people stay warm in cold weather, enabling them to live in cooler climates. Fire also kept nocturnal predators at bay. Evidence of cooked food is found from 1.9 million years ago, although fire was probably not used in a controlled fashion until 1,000,000 years ago.[16][18] Evidence becomes widespread around 50 to 100 thousand years ago, suggesting regular use from this time; interestingly, resistance to air pollution started to evolve in human populations at a similar point in time.[16] The use of fire became progressively more sophisticated, with its being used to create charcoal and to control wildlife from tens of thousands of years ago.[16]
    Earliest evidence of man-made pollution derives from ice core records, from which aspects of the prehistoric atmosphere can be deduced. Analyses of this data indicate noteworthy mass burning by early man in the early to middle Holocene period, giving rise to significant air pollutants.[2] The records from that era reflect deposition of air pollutants from vegetation burning on lake and ice surfaces. Studies on cave dwelling Homo sapiens in Europe document the presence of indoor air pollution from soot residues on the cave ceilings at an even earlier time from the pre-Holocene.[3]

    Somewhere between 200,000 years bn and 40,000 bn fire became frequently used by humans. If we compare this with migration of modern humans from their lightning land in west Africa which is today believed to have occurred some time after 125,000 years before now, and with arrival of the last ice age 115,000, we see that that is about the right time for people to start using fire regularly. This regular use of fire is determined by building and use of hearths, fireplaces. As opposed to fire, a hearth is a deliberately constructed fireplace. The earliest fireplaces were made by collecting stones to contain the fire, or simply reusing the same location again and again and allowing the ash to act as hearth construct. Those are found in the Middle Paleolithic period (ca 200,000-40,000 years ago, at sites such as Klasies River Caves (South Africa, 125,000 years ago) and Tabun Cave (at Mt. Carmel, Israel).

    If the fire use was habitual at that time however, you would expect to find a hearth in every location where we find traces of human habitation. You would expect to find that every cave has a hearth. Do we find that? No we don't. Even in the same small areas presumably populated by the members of the same clan, we only find isolated hearths. How can this be habitual use of fire? But let's say that humans at this stage did "from time to time" use fire repeatedly in the same area which we can call hearth.

    However not even the existence of hearths means that people actually new how to produce fire. If they were able to find fire, transport fire and preserve fire using slowly smoldering materials, then they were able to habitually use fire without actually knowing how to make it.
    Recent hunters-gatherers, such as the Tasmanian aboriginals, regularly carried fire sticks or rolls of bark that burned very slowly with them from camp to camp, even though they were perfectly capable of producing fire at will (37, 38).

    37. Roth HL (1899) The Aborigines of Tasmania (F. King and Sons, Halifax).
    38. Völger G (1972)Die Tasmanier. Versuch einer ethnographischen/historischen Rekonstruktion
    (Franz Steiner, Wiesbaden, Germany) (German).

    One way to have fire is not to let the one you have go out or transport it where you need it. What is needed is something that will smolder a long time. Like this tinder fungus:


    Tinder Fungus refers to a number of species of fungi that catch and hold coals very well.

    They are used for holding a coal for an extended period of time, so as to not have to go through the effort of restarting a fire. Simply pry off a chunk of the smoldering Tinder Fungus and use it to light some tinder and remake your fire.

    They are also used to initially catch sparks in certain fire-making methods.

    These are the results of an experiment done in Alaska. Tinder fungus was lit up in the evening and left outside. During the night the temperature has dropped to -4 degrees celsius. 10 hours later, and the fungus only burnt about 1/3 of the way. This is more than enough to burn through the night to have a fire in the morning or hike all day and have fire when you arrive.


    Just blow on it and it’s hot.


    There are many other materials that have ability to smolder slowly, tinder fungus is just one of them. For instance you can use sage:

    Or tightly rolled tree bark.

    So if people were able to obtain natural fire from a lightning strike started fires, heat started bush fires or a volcanoes (unlikely), and were able to transport it, preserve it and maintain it, then it is quite possible that they could have used fire habitually, maybe even constantly, without actually knowing how to make it.

    As I already said making fire is quite complex process. I firmly believe that it was discovered much later, probably closer to 40,000 - 20,000 bc and that before that fire was always "found" rather than made.

    Knowledge in general and knowledge of fire making in particular is not universal even today. How many of you know how to start the fire using primitive fire making tools? Or even how to start fire using matches or lighter without various "quick fire start thingies" you can buy today to help you start the fire? I remember one of the first times i tried to to start a fire in a wood burner in my grand parents house. I was a kid and "kind of" new how to do it. I had everything: matches, paper, dry grass, twigs, dry logs. I was inside, not out in the rain. It took me two hours of fiddling to eventually make it burn. I almost chocked to death in process as the wood was not perfectly dry and it was smoking like hell, and the chimney was not creating enough suction so the smoke was coming back into the room. It was quite an experience.

    Today if you wanted to learn how to light a fire, you can first ask around to see if there is anyone in your immediate vicinity who can teach you how to do it. Then you ask google. :) Or buy a book about fire lighting. In paleolithic times, when no one around you new how to light fire, there was no one to ask to teach you. Most of the time there was no one around you at all except your immediate family. Even if there was someone else living near by, he was probably armed with sticks and stones and dangerous, and wouldn't tell you even if he new. So it was almost impossible to learn new skills like lighting fire from other people. There were no fire lighting courses and schools, and i hear that 3g network was not very reliable in pre history so google was out too. So the only way fire making knowledge could have been passed around was from the person who discovered how to do it, to his family members including his children, then to their children and so on. When knowledge is dispersed like this it is very easily lost. Families can be wiped out by natural disasters, wars, diseases. This probably happened many times in many places. Families who new how to make fire probably kept this knowledge as a big family secret. They had no incentive to share this knowledge, quite the opposite. It was in their interest to preserve this knowledge as it gave them a great advantage over other human groups: they could move out of the tropics, out of the areas with maximum lightning activity and natural fire occurrences. They could move to areas with temperate and cold climate which were full of food and empty of people.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    If we look at the world situation at the beginning of the great "out of Africa" migration (100,000 - 70,000 years bc) we see that we have Neanderthals living in Europe, Denisovians in Asia, "Modern humans" in south east Africa. There were many other human groups probably strewn all over the world, some of them we know about and some of them we might discover in the future.
    Chris Stringer's hypothesis of the family tree of genus Homo, published 2012 in Nature:[1] Homo floresiensis originated in an unknown location from unknown ancestors and reached remote parts of Indonesia. Homo erectus spread from Africa to western Asia, then east Asia and Indonesia; its presence in Europe is uncertain, but it gave rise to Homo antecessor, found in Spain. Homo heidelbergensis originated from Homo erectus in an unknown location and dispersed across Africa, southern Asia and southern Europe (other scientists interpret fossils, here named heidelbergensis, as late erectus). Homo sapiens spread from Africa to western Asia and then to Europe and southern Asia, eventually reaching Australia and the Americas. In addition to Neanderthals and Denisovans a third gene flow in Africa is indicated at the right.[2]


    What is very interesting about these ancient populations of Neaderthals and "Modern humans" is that they originate from the same parent species:
    Comparison of the DNA of Neanderthals and Homo sapiens suggests that they diverged from a common ancestor between 350,000 and 400,000 years ago. This ancestor is not certain, but was probably Homo heidelbergensis (sometimes called Homo rhodesiensis). Heidelbergensis originated between 800,000 and 1,300,000 years ago, and continued until about 200,000. It ranged over east and South Africa, Europe and west Asia. Between 350,000 and 400,000 years ago the African branch is thought to have started evolving towards modern humans and the European branch towards Neanderthals. Scientists do not agree when Neanderthals can first be recognised in the fossil record, with dates ranging 200,000 and 300,000 years BP.[33][34][35][36]

    This means that neanderthals and "modern humans" were genetically quite similar:
    According to preliminary sequences, 99.7% of the base pairs of the modern human and Neanderthal genomes are identical, compared to humans sharing around 98.8% of base pairs with the chimpanzee.[3] Additionally, in 2010, the announcement of the discovery and analysis of Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from the Denisova hominin in Siberia revealed that this specimen differs from that of modern humans by 385 bases (nucleotides) in the mtDNA strand out of approximately 16,500, whereas the difference between modern humans and Neanderthals is around 202 bases. In contrast, the difference between chimpanzees and modern humans is approximately 1,462 mtDNA base pairs. Analysis of the specimen's nuclear DNA is under way and is expected to clarify whether the find is a distinct species.[9][10] Even though the Denisova hominin's mtDNA lineage predates the divergence of modern humans and Neanderthals, coalescent theory does not preclude a more recent divergence date for her nuclear DNA.

    But "modern humans" and neanderthals have evolved in completely opposite environment. Neanderthals evolved in Europe where for hundreds of thousands of years they survived in cold climate. "Modern humans" evolved in hot Africa where they almost never experienced cold. This ability to stand cold is going to prove crucial in determining what happens during the "out of Africa" migration of "Modern humans". One of the evolutionary adaptations to living in the cold climate is change of skin color to white. This is what science says about whitening of the skin of the originally black "modern human" population:
    Loss of body hair in Hominini species is assumed to be related to the emergence of bipedalism some 3 to 2 million years ago. Bipedal hominin body hair gradually disappeared to allow better heat dissipation through sweating[62][63]

    Reconstruction of a female Homo erectus based on fossils dated c. 1.5 million years ago, the estimated time for the emergence of skin pigmentation in early humans (John Gurche, Smithsonian Museum of Natural History, 2010).
    The emergence of skin pigmentation dates to after this, perhaps some 1.5 million years ago (about the time of the emergence of Homo heidelbergensis), when the earth endured a megadrought that drove early humans into arid, open landscapes. This would have resulted in early human skin enduring excess UV-B radiation and xeric stress.[64] This favoured the emergence of skin pigmentation in order to increase the epidermal permeability barrier[64] and protect from folate depletion due to the increased exposure to sunlight.[7]
    With the evolution of hairless skin, abundant sweat glands, and skin rich in melanin, early humans could walk, run, and forage for food for long periods of time under the hot sun without overheating brain damage, giving them an evolutionary advantage over other species.[6] By 1.2 million years ago, around the time of Homo ergaster, archaic humans (including the ancestors of Homo sapiens) had exactly the same receptor protein as modern sub-Sahran Africans.[62]
    This was the genotype inherited by anatomically modern humans, but retained only by part of the extant populations, thus forming an aspect of human genetic variation. About 100,000–70,000 years ago some anatomically modern humans (Homo sapiens) began to migrate away from the tropics to the north where they were exposed to less intense sunlight, possibly in part due to the need for greater use of clothing to protect against the colder climate. Under these conditions there was less photodestruction of folate and so the evolutionary pressure stopping lighter-skinned gene variants from surviving was reduced. In addition, lighter skin is able to generate more vitamin D (cholecalciferol) than darker skin so it would have represented a health benefit in reduced sunlight if there were limited sources of vitamin D.[63] Hence the leading hypothesis for the evolution of human skin color proposes that:
    From about 1.2 million years ago to less than 100,000 years ago, archaic humans, including archaic Homo sapiens, were dark-skinned.
    As Homo sapiens populations began to migrate, the evolutionary constraint keeping skin dark decreased proportionally to the distance north a population migrated, resulting in a range of skin tones within northern populations.
    At some point, some northern populations experienced positive selection for lighter skin due to the increased production of vitamin D from sunlight and the genes for darker skin disappeared from these populations.
    Subsequent migrations into different UV environments and admixture between populations has resulted in the varied range of skin pigmentations we see today.

    The genetic mutations leading to light skin, though different among East Asians and Western Europeans,[15] suggest the two groups experienced a similar selective pressure due to settlement in northern latitudes.[65] At what point these developments took place for sub-populations of Homo sapiens (and whether light skin also occurred independently in Homo neanderthalensis) is under debate. There is a long-standing hypothesis that the selection for lighter skin due to higher vitamin D absorption occurred soon after the Out of Africa migration some time before 40,000 years ago. A number of researchers disagree with this and suggest that the northern latitudes permitted enough synthesis of vitamin D combined with food sources from hunting to keep populations healthy, and only when agriculture was adopted was there a need for lighter skin to maximize the synthesis of vitamin D. The theory suggests that the reduction of game meat, fish, and some plants from the diet resulted in skin turning light many thousands of years after settlement in Eurasia.[66] This theory is supported by a study into the SLC24A5 gene, which found that the allelle associated with light skin in Europe may have originated as recently as 12,000–6,000 years ago,[33] which is in line with the earliest evidence of farming.[67] Research by Nina Jablonski suggests that an estimated time of about 10 000 to 20 000 years is enough for human populations to achieve optimal skin pigmentation in a particular geographic areas but that development of ideal skin coloration may happen faster if the evolutionary pressure is stronger, even in as little as 100 generations.[4] The length of time is also affected by cultural practices such as food intake, clothing, body coverings, and shelter usage which can alter the ways in which the environment affects populations.[6]

    One of the most recently proposed drivers of the evolution of skin pigmentation in humans is based on research that shows a superior barrier function in darkly pigmented skin. Most protective functions of the skin, including the permeability barrier and the antimicrobial barrier, reside in the stratum corneum (SC) and the researchers surmise that the SC has undergone the most genetic change since the loss of human body hair. Natural selection would have favored mutations that protect this essential barrier; one such protective adaptation is the pigmentation of interfollicular epidermis, because it improves barrier function as compared to non-pigmented skin. In lush rainforests, however, where UV-B radiation and xeric stress were not in excess, light pigmentation would not have been nearly as detrimental. This explains the side-by-side residence of lightly pigmented and darkly pigmented peoples.[69]
    Population and admixture studies suggest a three-way model for the evolution of human skin colour, with dark skin evolving in early hominids in Africa and light skin evolving partly separately at least two times after modern humans had expanded out of Africa.[13][14][15][16][17][18]
    For the most part, the evolution of light skin has followed different genetic paths in Western and Eastern Eurasian populations. Two genes however, KITLG and ASIP, have mutations associated with lighter skin that have high frequencies in Eurasian populations and have estimated origin dates after humans spread out of Africa but before the divergence of the two lineages.[16] All modern humans share a common ancestor who lived around 200,000 years ago in Africa.[19] Comparisons between known skin pigmentation genes in chimpanzees and modern Africans show that dark skin evolved along with the loss of body hair about 1.2 million years ago and is the ancestral state of all humans.[20] Investigations into dark skinned populations in South Asia and Melanesia indicate that skin pigmentation in these populations is due to the preservation of this ancestral state and not due to new variations on a previously lightened population.[8][21]

    Examination of the genome of late Neanderthals suggests that at least some populations may have developed light skin by 40,000 years ago.[68]


    I would ask a question here? Why are scientist insisting so much on the skin color mutation occurring in "modern humans" within few thousands or even few hundred years after arriving in Europe but doubt that neanderthals did it in 400,000 years living in the same climate? If scientist believe that exposure to less sun triggers white skin as major evolutionary adaptation that allows people to live in cold climate, surely neanderthals, who lived in that same cold climate must have been white. I also believe that denisovians also experienced the same type of change except that in their case it was slightly different leading to yellowish skin color.

    So at the moment when great "out of Africa" migration started we probably had white population in Europe and western and central Asia, yellowish population in south east Asia and Black population in Africa. Funnily enough recent genetic research has found that this same division of the population is present even today splitting the world in three genetically different human groups, and i believe that the split is based on the old split between Neanderthals, Denisovians and "Modern humans":
    Although mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal DNA are particularly useful in deciphering human history, data on the genomes of dozens of population groups have also been studied. In June 2009, an analysis of genome-wide SNP data from the International HapMap Project (Phase II) and CEPH Human Genome Diversity Panel samples was published.[51] Those samples were taken from 1138 unrelated individuals.[51] Before this analysis, population geneticists expected to find dramatic differences among ethnic groups, with derived alleles shared among such groups but uncommon or nonexistent in other groups.[52] Instead the study of 53 populations taken from the HapMap and CEPH data revealed that the population groups studied fell into just three genetic groups: Africans, Eurasians (which includes natives of Europe and the Middle East, and Southwest Asians east to present-day Pakistan), and East Asians, which includes natives of Asia, Japan, Southeast Asia, the Americas, and Oceania.[52] The study determined that most ethnic group differences can be attributed to genetic drift, with modern African populations having greater genetic diversity than the other two genetic groups, and modern Eurasians somewhat more than modern East Asians.[52] The study suggested that natural selection may shape the human genome much more slowly than previously thought, with factors such as migration within and among continents more heavily influencing the distribution of genetic variations.[53]

    Let's have a look again at the map showing the "Out of Africa" migration:


    Do you see how from 100,000 to 40,000 years the "modern human" population only moved through tropical zones? Why? Because "modern humans" were black people who evolved to live in hot tropical places and could not survive the cold. So what happened that enabled "modern humans" to move into Europe 40,000 years ago? Maybe this is where the answer lies:
    Anatomically modern humans originated in Africa about 250,000 years ago. The trend in cranial expansion and the acheulean elaboration of stone tool technologies which occurred between 400,000 years ago and the second interglacial period in the Middle Pleistocene (around 250,000 years ago) provide evidence for a transition from H. erectus to H. sapiens.[33] In the Recent African Origin (RAO) scenario, migration within and out of Africa eventually replaced the earlier dispersed H. erectus.
    Homo sapiens idaltu, found at site Middle Awash in Ethiopia, lived about 160,000 years ago.[34] It is the oldest known anatomically modern human and classified as an extinct subspecies.[35] Fossils of early Homo sapiens were found in Qafzeh cave in Israel and have been dated to 80,000 to 100,000 years ago. However these humans seem to have either become extinct or retreated back to Africa 70,000 to 80,000 years ago, possibly replaced by south bound Neanderthals escaping the colder regions of ice age Europe.[36] Hua Liu et al. analyzing autosomal microsatellite markers dates to c. 56,000±5,700 years ago mtDNA evidence. He interprets the paleontological fossil of early modern human from Qafzeh cave as an isolated early offshoot that retracted back to Africa.[37]

    Here is the map that shows where neanderthal remains were found so far:


    So when "modern humans" arrived into middle east, they run into neanderthals. And quickly turned either back to Africa or east into Asia. Why? Why didn't "modern humans" from Africa just wipe the primitive neanderthal aside and continue to Europe? Because we now know that when neanderthals and "modern humans" met in middle east 70,000 years ago, they didn't really differ very much in intelligence and technology, but they did differ greatly in physical strength.
    Neanderthal anatomy differed from modern humans in that they had a more robust build and distinctive morphological features, especially on the cranium, which gradually accumulated more derived aspects, particularly in certain isolated geographic regions. Evidence suggests they were much stronger than modern humans[1] while they were comparable in height; based on 45 long bones from at most 14 males and 7 females, Neanderthal males averaged 164–168 cm (65–66 in) and females 152–156 cm (60–61 in) tall.[2] Samples of 26 specimens in 2010 found an average weight of 77.6 kg (171 lb) for males and 66.4 kg (146 lb) for females.[3] A 2007 genetic study suggested some Neanderthals may have had red hair and light skin color.[4][5]

    Neanderthals made advanced tools,[61] had a language (the nature of which is debated) and lived in complex social groups. The Molodova archaeological site in eastern Ukraine suggests some Neanderthals built dwellings using animal bones. A building was made of mammoth skulls, jaws, tusks and leg bones, and had 25 hearths inside.[62]
    While largely carnivorous,[63][64] and apex predators;[65] new studies indicate Neanderthals had cooked vegetables in their diet.[66][67] In 2010, a U.S. researcher reported finding cooked vegetable matter in the teeth of a Neanderthal skull, contradicting the earlier belief they were exclusively (or almost exclusively) carnivorous[63] and apex predators.[65][66]

    So what happened when the white neanderthal and black "modern human" met in middle east? Well it seems they had lots of sex. And produced lots of mixed babies:
    Genetic testing in the last decade has revealed that several now extinct archaic human species interbred with modern humans. These species left their genetic imprint in different regions across the world: Neanderthals in all humans except Sub-Saharan Africans, Denisova hominin in Australasia (for example, Melanesians, Australian Aborigines and some Negritos) and there was also interbreeding between Sub-Saharan Africans and an as-yet-unknown hominin (possibly remnants of the ancient species Homo heidelbergensis). The rate of interbreeding was found to be relatively low (1-10%).[17][18]

    You can read more here:

    Here is another interesting thing about the genetic mixing between "archaic human species and modern humans":
    However, modern humans do not share any mitochondrial DNA with the Neanderthals,[12] an observation that puts constraints on the possible types of successful mating patterns,[13] since mitochondrial DNA in primates is exclusively maternally transmitted.

    This translated into English means that when "archaic human species and modern humans" had sex, the mothers were always "modern humans". I believe this explains what happened when "modern humans" met neanderthals in middle east: men got slaughtered, and women got pregnant...And lots of mixed coffee cappuccino and latte babies got born. This new mixed race of people was originally called Cro-Magnon but is today called "early modern humans" as opposed to even earlier "modern humans" from Africa:
    Cro-Magnon (Listeni/kroʊˈmænjən/ or US pronunciation: /kroʊˈmæɡnən/; French: [kʁomaɲɔ̃]) is a name that has been used to describe the first early modern humans (early Homo sapiens sapiens) of the European Upper Paleolithic.[1] Current scientific literature prefers the term European Early Modern Humans (EEMH), to the term 'Cro-Magnon' which has no formal taxonomic status, as it refers neither to a species or subspecies nor to an archaeological phase or culture.[1] The earliest known remains of Cro-Magnon-like humans are radiocarbon dated to 43,000 years before present.[2]
    Cro-Magnons were robustly built and powerful. The body was generally heavy and solid with a strong musculature. The forehead was fairly straight rather than sloping like in Neanderthals, and with only slight browridges. The face was short and wide. Like other modern humans, Cro-Magnons had a prominent chin. The brain capacity was about 1,600 cubic centimetres (98 cu in), larger than the average for modern humans.[3] However, recent research suggests that the physical dimensions of so-called "Cro-Magnon" are not sufficiently different from modern humans to warrant a separate designation.[4][5]

    Where and when did these first "early modern humans" appear? In middle east of course right at the time when neanderthals and "modern humans" met there:
    The Skhul/Qafzeh hominids or Qafzeh–Skhul early modern humans[1] are human fossils discovered in the Qafzeh and Es Skhul Caves in the former Mandate of Palestine, present-day Israel. Skhul Cave is on the slopes of Mount Carmel. Qafzeh Cave is a rockshelter in Lower Galilee.

    The remains exhibit a mix of archaic and modern traits. They have been tentatively dated at about 80,000-120,000 years old using electron spin resonance and thermoluminescence dating techniques.[2] The brain case is similar to modern humans, but they possess brow ridges and a projecting facial profile, similar to the Neanderthals. They were initially regarded as transitional from Neanderthals to modern humans, or as hybrids between Neanderthals and modern humans. Neanderthal remains have been found nearby at Kebara Cave that date to 61,000-48,000 years ago,[3] but it has been hypothesised that the Skhul/Qafzeh hominids had died out by 80,000 years ago because of drying conditions,[4] suggesting that the two types of hominids never made contact in the region. A more recent hypothesis is that Skhul/Qafzeh hominids represent the first exodus of modern humans from Africa around 125,000 years ago, probably via the Sinai Peninsula, and that the robust features exhibited by the Skhul/Qafzeh hominids represent archaic sapiens features rather than "Neanderthal features".[4] The discovery of modern human made tools from about 125,000 years ago at Jebel Faya, United Arab Emirates, in the Arabian Peninsula, may be from an even earlier exit of modern humans from Africa.[5]

    Do you see how they are painfully trying to do everything they can to remove any possibility that "early modern humans" could be the children of neanderthals and "modern humans"?
    "...the robust features exhibited by the Skhul/Qafzeh hominids represent archaic sapiens features rather than "Neanderthal features".

    Knowing what we know about neanderthal genes forming at least 3% of the genome of modern humans, the above statement is laughable.

    When we look at the above dates, another possible scenario emerges for the faithful meeting of "modern humans" and neanderthals in middle east which created cro magnons. As I pointed out already, until about 40,000 years ago, "modern humans" stayed within tropical or sub tropical areas, as you would expect. It is possible that they colonized southern parts of middle east as well. But, then at some stage between 61,000 and 48,000 years ago, there was a southward migration of neanderthals from Europe, which reached as far as middle east. The mixing probably happened in middle east around 50,000 years ago. Analysis of mitochondrial DNA data done in order to reconstruct the demographic prehistory of Homo Sapiens, reveals statistical evidence of explosive growth around 50,000 to 60,000 years ago. This coincides with the above dates of neanderthal finds in middle east. Part of this new "even more modern human" population went into Africa. There they mixed with black African "modern humans". We know that because we find neanderthal genes in Maasais in Africa:
    Maasai seem to have some "Neandertal" genes in common with East Asians that are not shared by Europeans.

    Admixture of Maasai with East Asians seems unlikely. Thus, there are three possibilities:
    A recent back-migration of West Asians who possess these alleles
    A really old back-migration of undifferentiated "Neandertal"-admixed West Asians in which these alleles had not yet been lost by drift
    Origin of these alleles in the common ancestors of East Africans and Eurasians rather than introgression from Neandertals
    I can't exclude the possibility that some recent Caucasoids from West Asia possessed these alleles while CEU do not. I will simply note that HapMap Tuscans (TSI), do not possess them, and neither do 471 Ashkenazi Jews from Bray et al. (2010) who are likely to be of West Asian/European ancestry. Neither do Kurds and Urkarah Dagestanis (from Xing et al. 2010) possess 2 "Neandertal" alleles on SNPs available in that dataset.

    So, I will tentatively exclude the possibility that recent Caucasoid back-migrations brought these alleles to East Africa.

    This leaves open two possibilities: that (i) these aren't Neandertal genes at all and were part of the ancestral gene pool of East Africans and Eurasians, or that (ii) they were brought back to Africa by a major early back-migration of undifferentiated Eurasians.

    No surprise here. The tallest tribe in Africa and one of the tallest in the world (sharing first place with Dinaric population from Balkan).

    The part of the "even more modern human" stayed in middle east and part went northwards into Europe. Is there a connection between this "even more modern human" and the future appearance of Cro-Magnon man in the Balkans? I believe there is.

    Here is how this northward migration seem to have went:


    Here is a forensic facial reconstruction of a Cro-Magnon man:


    This spreading of "even more modern human" northwards, to areas outside the tropical and sub tropical zones which were usual habitats of "modern humans", could have only been possible if new "even more modern humans" had different genes from "earlier modern humans". These new "cold" genes could have only come from neanderthal. But the acquiring of "cold" genes was not the only genetic improvement that this new "even more modern humans" possessed over "earlier modern humans" and neanderthals alike. It seems that new bastard race was better than it's parents put together, as usually happens with mixed breeds. It also seems that as the "even more modern humans" traveled northwards, more and more neanderthal genes were added to "early modern human" genetic structure. Once "even more modern humans" reached Balkans, there is a distinct possibility that they have mixed with another human "species" which lived in the Balkans and was recently discovered in Serbia:
    The fossil was found to be at least 397,000 years old and possibly older than 525,000 years old,” explained Rink. “We used three independent techniques (electron spin resonance, uranium series isotopic analysis and infrared luminescence dating) which had remarkably consistent results reinforcing our conclusion. This established the mandible as the oldest easternmost European fossil of its kind.”

    “During this time, humans in Western Europe started to develop Neanderthal traits, which is lacking in this specimen,” explained Roksandic. ”Scientists now think the evolution of Neanderthal traits was strongly influenced by periodic isolation caused by episodic formation of glaciers. On the other hand, humans in southeastern Europe were never geographically isolated from Asia and Africa by glaciers and accordingly, this resulted in different evolutionary forces acting on early human populations in this region. The Balkan Peninsula could have belonged to the postulated core area from which human populations repopulated Europe after the glaciers receded. The status of this specimen as Homo erectus s.l. fits well with this explanation.”

    We find evidence of the interbreeding between neanderthals and "even more modern humans" all over Europe:

    The most vocal proponent of the hybridization hypothesis on anatomical grounds has been Erik Trinkaus of Washington University.[34] Trinkaus claims various fossils as hybrid individuals, including the "child of Lagar Velho", a skeleton found at Lagar Velho in Portugal dated to about 24,000 years ago.[35] In a 2006 publication co-authored by Trinkaus, the fossils found in 1952 in the cave of Peștera Muierii, Romania, are likewise claimed as hybrids. [36]
    In his work Neanderthal, Paul Jordan points out that without some interbreeding, certain features on some "modern" skulls of Eastern European Cro-Magnon heritage are hard to explain.[37] In another study, researchers have recently found in Peştera Muierilor, Romania, remains of European humans from 30 thousand years ago who possessed mostly diagnostic "modern" anatomical features, but also had distinct Neanderthal features not present in ancestral modern humans in Africa, including a large bulge at the back of the skull, a more prominent projection around the elbow joint, and a narrow socket at the shoulder joint. Analysis of one skeleton's shoulder showed that these humans, like Neanderthal, did not have the full capability for throwing spears.[38]
    The paleontological analysis of modern-human emergence in Europe has been shifting from considerations of the Neanderthals to assessments of the biology and chronology of the earliest modern humans in western Eurasia. This focus, involving morphologically modern humans before 28,000 years ago, shows accumulating evidence that they present a variable mosaic of derived modern human, archaic human, and Neanderthal features.[36][39][40] Studies of fossils from the upper levels of the Sima de las Palomas, Murcia, Spain, dated to 40,000 years ago, establish the late persistence of Neanderthals in Iberia. This reinforces the conclusion that the Neanderthals were not merely swept away by advancing modern humans. In addition, the Palomas Neanderthals variably exhibit a series of modern-human features rare or absent in earlier Neanderthals. Either they were evolving on their own towards the modern-human pattern, or more likely, they had contact with early modern humans around the Pyrenees. If the latter is the case, it implies that the persistence of the Middle Paleolithic in Iberia was a matter of choice, and not cultural retardation.[41]
    Modern-human findings in Abrigo do Lagar Velho, Portugal, of 24,500 years ago, allegedly featuring Neanderthal admixtures, have been published.[42] However the interpretation of the Portuguese specimen is disputed.[43]

    Please note how the interbreeding between neanderthals and "even more modern humans" is called "hybridization" implying mixing of two separate distinct species, which we will see is being proven to be complete rubbish. Neanderthals and "even more modern humans", at the moment when they interbred in middle east and Europe were just two subbranches of the same species: humans.

    But their mix produced what only could be described as "super humans", Cro Magnons:
    The Cro-Magnon man was, compared to the other “anatomically modern humans” around him, practically a superman. They were skilled hunters, toolmakers and artists famous for the cave art at places such as Lascaux, Chauvet, and Altamira. They had a high cranium, a broad and upright face, and cranial capacity “about the same as modern humans” (can we say larger?), but less than that of Neanderthals. The males were as tall as 6 feet.

    What the archaeological record seems to show is that in Europe, after millennia of almost no progress at all, even in the few areas where modern man has been found, suddenly human culture seems to take off like an explosion with the appearance of Cro-Magnon man.

    Not only does culture explode, but also new ways of doing things, new styles and innovations that were utterly unknown in the period immediately preceding them, suddenly appear, only to disappear again like an outdated fad. From Spain to the Urals, sites list the developments of sewing needles, barbed projectiles, fishhooks, ropes, meat drying racks, temperature controlled hearths, and complex dwellings.

    Cro-Magnon’s tools are described as the Aurignacian technology, characterized by bone and antler tools, such as spear tips (the first) and harpoons. The earliest known Aurignacian sites are in the Balkans (a cave called Bacho Kiro), and they are dated to around 43,000 years ago. Three thousand years later, the Aurignacian craze is all over Europe. They also used animal traps, and bow and arrow. They invented shafts and handles for their knives, securing their blades with bitumen, a kind of tar, as long as 40 thousand years ago. Other improvements included the invention of the atlatl, a large bone or piece of wood with a hooked groove used for adding distance and speed to spears.

    They also invented more sophisticated spear points, such as those that detach after striking and cause greater damage to prey.144 The Cro-Magnon type man was also the “originator” of such abstract concepts as “time”. They marked time by lunar phases, recording them with marks on a piece of bone, antler or stone. Some of these “calendars” contained a record of as many as 24 lunations.145

    Cro-Magnon people lived in tents and other man-made shelters in groups of several families. They were nomadic hunter-gatherers and had elaborate rituals for hunting, birth and death. Multiple burials are common in the areas where they were found. What is most interesting is that from 35 to 10 thousand years ago, there was no differentiation by sex or age in burials.

    They included special grave goods, as opposed to everyday, utilitarian objects, suggesting a very increased ritualization of death and burial..147

    They were the first confirmed to have domesticated animals, starting by about 15 thousand years ago (though ancient sapiens may have domesticated the dog as much as 200 thousand years ago).

    It also seems that right from the beginning, Cro-Magnon man was traveling and sharing and exchanging not only goods, but technology.

    If there was a better form of stone somewhere else, the word seemed to get around, and everybody had some of it. Distinctive flints from southern Poland are found at Dolni Vestonice, a hundred miles to the south. Slovakian radiolarite of red, yellow and olive is found a hundred miles to the east. Later in the Upper Paleolithic period, the famous “chocolate flint” of southern Poland is found over a radius of two hundred and fifty miles.151

    151 Shreeve, op. cit.
    144 Eric Whitaker, Steve Stewart; Article Reviews; Late Ice Age Hunting Technology (Heidi Knecht) Scientific American, July 1994.
    145 Marshack, Alexander, The Roots Of Civilization - Moyer (Mt. Kisco, New York: Bell Limited 1991).
    146 Preston, Douglas, “The Lost Man”, New Yorker Magazine, June 16, 1997.
    147 Schirtzinger, Erin, The Evidence for Pleistocene Burials, Neanderthals versus Modern Humans, December 6, 1994.
    The most amazing part of all of it is the art. Art suddenly springs onto the landscape, fully formed, with no period of gradual development; no signs of childish attempts preceding it. A piece of ivory carved 32,000 years ago is as realistic as anything turned out by the most accomplished carver of the present day.

    They were the first to leave extensive works of art, such as cave paintings and carved figures of animals and pregnant women. Huge caves lavishly decorated with murals depicting animals of the time were at first rejected as fake for being too sophisticated. Then they were dismissed as being primitive, categorized as hunting, fertility or other types of sympathetic magic.

    They show evidence of motifs, of following their own stylistic tradition, of “impressionist” like style, perspective, and innovative use of the natural relief in the caves. Also possible, considering the new concepts of time reckoning practiced by Cro-Magnon, are abstract representations of the passage of time, such as spring plants in bloom, or pregnant bison that might represent summer.148

    Aside from pregnant women and other Goddess worship iconography,149 representations of people, “anthropomorphs,” are very few, and never show the accuracy or detail of the other animals. Humans are represented in simple outlines without features, sometimes with “masks”, often without regard to proportion, being distorted and isolated. At the Grottes des Enfants in France are found four burials with red ocher, and associated with Aurignacian tools.

    148 Reeser, Ken, “Earliest Art: Representative Art In The Upper Paleolithic Era”, 1994 (after: Marshack, 1991; Grand, 1967; Ucko, Peter J., and Rosenfeld, Andre, 1967; Brown, G. Baldwin, 1932; Breuil, Abbe H., date unknown) (unpublished).
    149 Stone, Merlin, When God Was A Woman (San Diego, New York, London: Harvest/Harcourt Brace Jovanovich 1976).

    Is seems though that "early modern human" or Crom magnon could have inherited it's love of painting from neanderthal:
    Prehistoric dots and crimson hand stencils on Spanish cave walls are now the world's oldest known cave art, according to new dating results—perhaps the best evidence yet that Neanderthals were Earth's first cave painters. If that's the case, the discovery narrows the cultural distance between us and Neanderthals—and fuels the argument, at least for one scientist, that the heavy-browed humans were not a separate species but only another race. Of the 11 subterranean sites the team studied along northern Spain's Cantabrian Sea coast, the cave called El Castillo had the oldest paintings—the oldest being a simple red disk. At more than 40,800 years old, "this is currently Europe's oldest dated art by at least 4,000 years," said the study's lead author Alistair Pike, an archaeologist at the University of Bristol in the U.K. If the new dates are correct, they also could make the El Castillo art the oldest known well-dated cave paintings in the world—a title previously held by France's Chauvet cave paintings (pictures), believed to be at least 37,000 years old.

    Many scientists had long doubted whether Neanderthals were capable of producing symbolic art. But that's begun to change in recent years, thanks in part to the discovery of pigments, tiny art objects, and what might be body paint at Neanderthal sites, according to Paul Bahn, a cave art expert and a member of the Archaeological Institute of America. "There remains a rump of blinkered scholars who still consider Neanderthals to be brutish savages, little better than animals, but fortunately they are a dwindling minority," Bahn, who was not involved in the study, said in an email. "I think almost all objective scholars now fully accept Neanderthal art." Study co-author João Zilhão goes a step further, suggesting that, if Neanderthals were responsible for some of the Spanish cave art, then perhaps there's no real distinction between them and modern humans. "It adds to the evidence ... that Neanderthals were a European racial variant of Homo sapiens, not a distinct species," said Zilhão, of the University of Barcelona. At the very least, study leader Pike said, the new findings help narrow the distance between the cultural evolution of Neanderthals and modern humans. "If you look at the [modern human] trajectory towards art, we find shell beads, bits of ochre, and ostrich shells carved with geometric designs from about 70,000 to 100,000 years ago" in Africa, he said. Now, at European sites, "we see that Neanderthals are following the same trajectory. We see shell beads, carved sculptures, and geometric designs on bits of bone. And now we see what might be Neanderthal art."
    The Upper Paleolithic signals the most fundamental change in human behavior that the archaeological record may ever reveal.150 The only explanation for this tremendous change is that a new kind of human appeared on the earth stage.

    150 Richard Klein, Stanford, quoted by Shreeve.

    I am writing this article in the same week when discovery of homo erectus skulls in Georgia has been published:
    Skull of Homo erectus throws story of human evolution into disarray

    A haul of fossils found in Georgia suggests that half a dozen species of early human ancestor were actually all Homo erectus. The spectacular fossilised skull of an ancient human ancestor that died nearly two million years ago has forced scientists to rethink the story of early human evolution. Anthropologists unearthed the skull at a site in Dmanisi, a small town in southern Georgia, where other remains of human ancestors, simple stone tools and long-extinct animals have been dated to 1.8m years old. Experts believe the skull is one of the most important fossil finds to date, but it has proved as controversial as it is stunning. Analysis of the skull and other remains at Dmanisi suggests that scientists have been too ready to name separate species of human ancestors in Africa. Many of those species may now have to be wiped from the textbooks. The latest fossil is the only intact skull ever found of a human ancestor that lived in the early Pleistocene, when our predecessors first walked out of Africa. The skull adds to a haul of bones recovered from Dmanisi that belong to five individuals, most likely an elderly male, two other adult males, a young female and a juvenile of unknown sex. "The significance is difficult to overstate. It is stunning in its completeness. This is going to be one of the real classics in paleoanthropology," said Tim White, an expert on human evolution at the University of California, Berkeley. But while the skull itself is spectacular, it is the implications of the discovery that have caused scientists in the field to draw breath. Over decades excavating sites in Africa, researchers have named half a dozen different species of early human ancestor, but most, if not all, are now on shaky ground. The remains at Dmanisi are thought to be early forms of Homo erectus, the first of our relatives to have body proportions like a modern human. The species arose in Africa around 1.8m years ago and may have been the first to harness fire and cook food. The Dmanisi fossils show that H erectus migrated as far as Asia soon after arising in Africa. The latest skull discovered in Dmanisi belonged to an adult male and was the largest of the haul. It had a long face and big, chunky teeth. But at just under 550 cubic centimetres, it also had the smallest braincase of all the individuals found at the site. The dimensions were so strange that one scientist at the site joked that they should leave it in the ground. The odd dimensions of the fossil prompted the team to look at normal skull variation, both in modern humans and chimps, to see how they compared. They found that while the Dmanisi skulls looked different to one another, the variations were no greater than those seen among modern people and among chimps. The scientists went on to compare the Dmanisi remains with those of supposedly different species of human ancestor that lived in Africa at the time. They concluded that the variation among them was no greater than that seen at Dmanisi. Rather than being separate species, the human ancestors found in Africa from the same period may simply be normal variants of H erectus.
    "Everything that lived at the time of the Dmanisi was probably just Homo erectus," said Prof Zollikofer. "We are not saying that palaeoanthropologists did things wrong in Africa, but they didn't have the reference we have. Part of the community will like it, but for another part it will be shocking news."

    These skulls from Georgia probably offer the final proof that there was always only one species of humans. And if that is the case it opens a new big question? Does neanderthal dna really represents only 3-4% of "human" dna? Or should we ask ourselves: "which Y dna haplogroups and which mt dna haplogroups are neanderthal, or more correctly European human, and which are African human, and which are Denisovian or more correctly Asian human"? Did this "even more modern human" belong to I haplogroup?

    This is from Eupedia:
    Haplogroup I is the oldest major haplogroup in Europe and in all probability the only one that originated there (apart from very minor haplogroups like C6 and deep subclades of other haplogroups). It is thought to have arrived from the Middle East as haplogroup IJ sometime between 40,000 and 30,000 years ago, and developed into haplogroup I approximately 25,000 years ago. In other words, Cro-Magnons most probably belonged to IJ and I (alongside older haplogroups like F and C6).

    Here is a Y chromosome time line again from Eupedia:

    If we look at the diagram we see that at around 70,000 years before present, at the time of arrival of the "modern African man" we have a major split at CT level. This is where euro Asian and afroasiatic branches formed. You can see that DE split up at that point. It is probably part of the mixed population which stayed in middle east and eventually moved to north Africa. If we look at European branch we see that around 60,000 years before now, around the time that neanderthal remains in middle east were dated to, we have emergence of the group F, the father group of all European groups. And then at 46,000 years before now we have emergence of IJK group. This coincides with emergence of Cro Magnons in the Balkans.

    In his work "Re-Examining the Out-of-Africa Theory and the Origin of Europeoids (Caucasoids)" Klyosov & Rozhanskii say this:
    DNA genealogy has shown that non-Africans do not have “African” SNPs on their Y chromosomes (Klyosov & Rozhanskii, 2012; Klyosov et al., 2012). Africans and non-Africans have plenty of SNP-mutations from a common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees; however, non-Africans have apparently, not received them from the Africans (ibid.). As a consequence of this lack of DNA data, it is hard to imagine that African languages could have evolved into PIE languages. Overall, it is highly questionable that “anatomically modern homo” arose in Africa (Klyosov & Rozhankii, 2012; Klyosov et al., 2012; Bednarik, 2012, 2013),

    Is this all just coincidence? I don't think so.

    So what happened to early modern humans or Cro-Magnons as they were once called? They were still in Europe, more precisely in the Balkans, at the time of the last glacial maximum.

    The Cro-Magnon of Eastern Serbia
    Eighty-four graves at Vlasac produced skeletal material from 117 individuals. Scattered finds of another 65 individuals came from all over the occupied area (Nemeskeri, 1978, pp.97-98). The general character of these remains, representing a tall (females 163.32, and males 170.53 cm), robust, Cro-Magnon-type population, with a tendency toward some gracilization as the, Mesolithic period drew to a close, (Nemeskeri and Szathmary, 1978, pp.178, 179) is consonant with the reports of the 37 individuals recovered from 30 graves at Padina (Zivanovic, S., 1974, p.153), and the 85 skeletons from Lepenski Vir (Nemeskeri, 1972, p.200). Gracilization, particularly of males, is a general trend throughout Europe in the late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic (Frayer, 1978).

    Among the skeletal remains were found in Lepenski vir (mesolithic culture) 160-170 individuals, which are based on archaeological and stratigraphic elements divided into two groups: A and B. The oldest group A is among the Cro-Magnon type (with its robust and fragile variant).

    "The characteristics of men in group A are long or very long skull, with a medium wide or wide maximum width. Height of the skull is very pronounced. ... Cranial material is very massive. The vertikalis norm of the skull are spheroidal, ellipsoidal or wide ovoid shape. The norm lateralis profile is tall and jagged. The profile of the dominant occipital torus okcipitalis, and forms the "wide house" or "bomb ". The face is very wide and medium wide, paralelopiped. Mandible is a large, high and wide. Raums is broad with a very corrugated angulus. Postcranial skeleton is characterized by toughness, with especially distinct muscles and ligaments to the femur and humerus. Robuscity of clavicle and ribs is also expressed. The body's growth is between 175 and 178 cm. ... Cranial volume in men is between 1400 and 1500 mm3 (for female skulls of this group between 1258 cm3). "(Z. Mikic, same, p.27)"
    The temporal region and the supramastoid ridge in mesolithic skulls from Padina in the Iron Gate Gorge of the Danube

    Studies of the morphological features of the temporal region of mesolithic skulls from Padina in the Iron Gate Gorge of the Danube revealed a very prominent and large supramastoid ridge which is the most striking feature in skulls of both sexes. Mastoid processes were larger in male skulls, but in 25% of the cases there was an overlap between the size of the processes in male and female specimens. The mastoid ridge was prominent in both sexes. The digastric fossa was always well defined in both sexes and in the two thirds of the skull specimens it was deep. The posterior root of the zygoma was prominent in all the skulls, but it was better developed in the male specimens. The parietotemporal suture in both sexes rises above the level of the pterion. There were no morphological or anthropometrical differences between the left and the right side of individual skulls outside the limits of natural asymmetry. All these morphological characteristics of the temporal region may help in racial and sexual diagnosis of the Mesolithic skulls from the Iron Gate Gorge.
    Radiocarbon dating of a Cro-Magnon population from Padina, Yugoslavia, with some general recommendations for dating human skeletons

    A previously controversial group of human skeletal remains of Cro-Magnon type from Padina in the Iron Gates gorge has been shown by direct radiocarbon dating of collagen to belong to the early Holocene period, c. 8–9000 bp. The more general applicability of the procedures used to establish the age of these skeletons is discussed with particular reference to the desideratum of including only directly dated remains in the human fossil record.

    Radio carbon dating of Danube gorge skeletons


    New AMS dates from Padina indicate a significant chronological depth for the use of this site (this also applies to some other sites in the Danube Gorges, such as Vlasac, cf. Fig. 14)as both a burial ground and a seasonal or semi-permanent settlement, at least from c.9500 CalBC. There are significant chronological differences in dating individual human burials, scatteredresidual remains and remains found within architectural features, such as trapezoidal buildings.For the moment, it is difficult to claim unbroken continuity for almost 4000 years, i.e. duringthe Mesolithic–Neolithic development that the available radiometric dates cover at this site, andwe suspect that there were discontinuous phases and (seasonal) episodes of occupation.
    However, it seems that populations which visited this site over several millennia of theMesolithic development belonged to the same material culture/regional tradition throughout theperiod, with a good knowledge of the significance of the locale. Furthermore, it seems that thereis no major chronological break in the sequence of radiometric dates at the time when newmaterial paraphernalia, such as pottery, Balkan yellow-spotted flint and polished stone tools,appear in this region as general traits of Early Neolithic material culture tradition. We see noevidence to support a recently suggested scenario of flooding that would have caused theabandonment of this site in the period 6300–5950 Cal BC (Bonsall et al. 2002) since a numberof new AMS dates cover exactly this period.New dates from Hajduka Vodenica suggest the Mesolithic use of the site as a burialground from at least c.7500 Cal BC. There is a possible gap of around 500 years between theearlier use and a later use of the site as a burial ground around 6500 to 6100 Cal BC. However,there might have been a clear recognition of the previous use of the site on the basis of stratigraphic and spatial relations of earlier and later dated burials and architectural features.Material culture associations at the site related to the lower two portions of stone constructions(without pottery and with abundant bone tools) also suggest that the site might have been usedas an occupation settlement/base during the Mesolithic, which should be determined by futuredating of bone tools and animal bones from this area.This revised chronological framework on the basis of new AMS dates from Padina andHajduka Vodenica also significantly helps us understand the nature of the Meso-Neolithictransformations in this region, with abundant indications regarding the chronological overlappingand cultural coexistence of Mesolithic and Neolithic realms (Boriin press a; in press b).Further research and new AMS dates from both sites are necessary to achieve a fine-grained resolution of the chronological sequences and to discern particularities of very long andcomplex occupational histories at these and other locales in the Danube Gorges.

    The research presented here aims at disceming possible interactions between Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of the bon Gates Gorge (Serbia-Romania) and the th surrounding farmers. The region has, during the fh and the 6 rnillenniurns BC. witnessed the coexistence of Mesolithic culture of the Lepenski Vir -Schela Cladovei type and the Early and Middle Neolithic of the Balkans. represented in the region by Gura-Baciului and StarCevo. At the end of this coexistence, Neolithic settlements are confïrmed on one of the examined sites (Lepenski Vir), as well as downstream from the Gorge. integrated into the Middle Neolithic Starfevo-Cris-Koros complex. in order to examine the interactions of communities with different modes of subsistence (foraging and farming respectively), the nonmetric anatocnicd variünts of the skull and postcranial skeletons were exiunined on the four sites with the largest number of individuals buried: Padina. Lepenski Vir. Vlasac and Hajdurlka Vodenicü. The analyses were performed according to sites, chronological units, and combination of sites and chronological units. Anaher set of analyses, aimed at disceming environmental (occupation/nutrition) changes that could have affected the population in transition was performed on metric variables of postcranial skeleton. The combination of these two sets of andyses argues for local continuity within the region, with high degree of initial heterogeneity, and temporal ordering as the mosi likely explanation for the pattern of change. A more pronounced difference at the time of availability of contact with Neolithic populations in the region argiles for a limited "seeping in" of a non-local population that did not result in a change of either economic base or ideology. There is no evidence of an incoming population at the tirne of change to Neolithic economy and integration of sites into the cultural circle of the Balkan Neolithic, but rather of a local population accepting the new way of life.
    Research at the old graveyard locality in the village Trnjane, near Pozarevac, have left the deepest impression on the professor Srboljub Zivanovic: Moving from the Danube to Pozarevac, we are finding skeletons - from the distant prehistoric times to the present day. Closest to Danube are Cro magnon skeletons. Further away you go, closer to present day you come, but genetically and anthropologically they are the same people the same population. The fact that we have continual use of the same spot for burrial purposes from prehistoric times to today, with the same type of skeletons from prehistoric times to today, forces us to conclude that today's inhabitants of Pozarevac (Eastern Serbia) are the same people who lived in prehistoric times in Lepenski vir - cro magnons. If you want to know if you are a descendant of a cro magnon, check the crown of your head. If you have a bump there, a ridge, you are descendant of a cro magnon. If it is all smooth, you came to Balkan from somewhere else.

    From interview with professor Dr. Srboljub Živanović, who was a professor at the Department of Anatomy, The Medical College of St. Bartholomew's Hospital. He currently lives and works in London as the director of the European Institute for Ancient Slavic Studies and fellow of the Royal Anthropological Institute.

    Well I did check my skull and I seem to have all the bumps and ridges professor Živanović talks about. I have protruding back of the skull with a spike in the bone, I have ridge on my crown and my eyebrow bones are sticking out and end in sharp points. Plus my shoulders don't rotate fully and never did, so I was never able to throw stones as a kid. I always thought that this just made me weird, but now I can call my self a cromagnon (ha ha. :)) I am also 6 foot 4, my brother is 7 feet tall. All my cousins and nieces and nephews are the same....And when i was growing up in Serbia I felt positively scrawny compared to other guys.

    Does it make me any better or worse than people who don't have weird bumps and ridges on their heads? Of course not. But it shows that we have all these early fire related myths preserved til today, because we still have the descendants of the people who made the original myths living among us. There is really no other explanation.

    This brings us to the period 40,000 years to 10,000 years before today. During this time Cro Magnon took control of Europe merging with and replacing the neanderthals. This is also the time when major advances in fire creation, management and use were made. Professor Živanović claimed in the 60's, that Cro Magnons still lives among us today in the Balkans and that many Serbs are direct descendants of Cro Magnons. The only haplogroup in the Balkans that is old enough to be Cro Magnon haplogroup is I haplogroup which originated some time between 46,000 and 38,000 years ago in the Balkans. Their descendants are still living in the Balkans today. This would explain why the oldest, most archaic language terms linked to fire and fire making are found in Serbian. If Cro Magnons were the first to really master fire, and the Cro Magnons survived in Serbia to this day, then their language survived too in old layers of Serbian language. For the same reason legends about the catching of the fire bird, the ancient hunt for fire caused by lightning, survived to this day passed from generation to generation of old Europeans.

    But what about the cult of fire, the Agni (Triglav) worship, which survived only in the Balkans and in India. The link between these two locations is R1a haplogroup, the Arian haplogroup. But R1a haplogroup can be found throughout Euroasia. How come only Serbs and Indians, two people on opposite sides of R1a spectrum, preserved the Agni worship? If we look at Serbian R1a haplogroup we see that (according to Klyosov) it is the oldest European R1a haplogroup which arrived to the Balkans around 10,000 years before now:
    R1a1-M17 accounts for about one-seventh to one-sixth of Serbian Y-chromosomes. Its frequency peaks in Poland (56.4%) and Ukraine (54.0%), and its variance peaks in northern Bosnia.[1] It originated around 20,000 ybp likely in southern Siberia, and some of its bearers migrated to the Balkans 10,000 to 13,000 ybp. About 5000 to 6000 ybp, they began to migrate from the Balkans to the west toward the Atlantic, to the north toward the Baltic Sea and Scandinavia, to the east to the Russian plains and steppes, and to the south to Asia Minor.[4] It became the most predominant haplogroup in the general Slavic paternal gene pool. The variance of R1a1 in the Balkans might have been enhanced by infiltrations of Indo-European speaking peoples between 2000 and 1000 BC, and by the Slavic migrations to the region in the early Middle Ages.[1][2] A descendant lineage of R1a1-M17, R1a1a7-M458, which has the highest frequency in central and southern Poland (30%, more than half of total R1a1 there), is also observed among East Slavic and Finno-Ugric peoples, but it is very rare among South Slavs, including Serbs.[5]

    This dating comes from the research done by Anatole Klyosov.

    If Klyosov is right, then there is a possibility that the fire making knowledge and consequent fire worship arose in the Balkans, or central Europe. It probably happened at some time between 45,000 years before now (cro magnon appearance in the Balkans, the IJK haplogrop) and 30,000 years before now (R haplogroup). If we look again at the comparative chronological tree of European Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA haplogroups diagram from Eupedia, we see that haplogroup R evolved from haplogroup IJK. As cro magnon migrated eastward, part of the population moved to central Asia and there evolved into R haplogroup 30,000 years before now and later into R1 haplogroup around 26,000 years before now. These people, being the descendants of the original fire makers and fire worshipers, continued the tradition. But by this time they have probably deified the fire and probably have turned fire worship into a religion. Part of them moved eastwards to north China and India some time around 7,000 years before now. Part of them moved westwards back to Europe and arrived in the Balkans around 10,000 years before now. It is these oldest branches of R1a that carried and preserved the fire cult of Agni. This is why the Agni cult exists in Serbia and in India and not anywhere in between. R1a spread from the Balkans throughout Europe and reached Ireland at some time between 4500 and 3500 years before now. Just in time to build what we now call "passage tomb at Knowth" but what probably was a temple dedicated to Triglav, Agni. I will talk about it more later.

    I hope you had fun reading this. In my next post I will try to answer the question: "when exactly did man learn how to make and properly use fire?". In order to answer this question I decided to learn how to make fire using primitive fire making techniques. I believed that in order to understand why Triglav, Agni worship developed the way it did, I need

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia.

    Regueiro M, Rivera L, Damnjanovic T, Lukovic L, Milasin J, Herrera RJ.


    Whether present-day European genetic variation and its distribution patterns can be attributed primarily to the initial peopling of Europe by anatomically modern humans during the Paleolithic, or to latter Near Eastern Neolithic input is still the subject of debate. Southeastern Europe has been a crossroads for several cultures since Paleolithic times and the Balkans, specifically, would have been part of the route used by Neolithic farmers to enter Europe. Given its geographic location in the heart of the Balkan Peninsula at the intersection of Central and Southeastern Europe, Serbia represents a key geographical location that may provide insight to elucidate the interactions between indigenous Paleolithic people and agricultural colonists from the Fertile Crescent. In this study, we examine, for the first time, the Y-chromosome constitution of the general Serbian population. A total of 103 individuals were sampled and their DNA analyzed for 104 Y-chromosome bi-allelic markers and 17 associated STR loci. Our results indicate that approximately 58% of Serbian Y-chromosomes (I1-M253, I2a-P37.2, R1a1a-M198) belong to lineages believed to be pre-Neolithic. On the other hand, the signature of putative Near Eastern Neolithic lineages, including E1b1b1a1-M78, G2a-P15, J1-M267 and J2-M172 and R1b1a2-M269 accounts for 39% of the Y-chromosome. Furthermore, an examination of the distribution of Y-chromosome filiations in Europe indicates extreme levels of Paleolithic lineages in a region encompassing Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, possibly the result of Neolithic migrations encroaching on Paleolithic populations against the Adriatic Sea.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    How did humans learn how to make fire? We have three possibilities:

    1. Aliens taught them
    2. They had vision in which god told them how to do it
    3. They did it by accident while trying to do something else

    If you think about primitive fire making techniques they fall into two basic types:

    1. wood on wood friction
    2. stone on iron friction

    To produce fire by either of these two techniques requires a lot of hard work, determination and skill. You need specialist equipment which has to be made from specific material combinations and in specific way. This equipment has to be all ready and used in very precise way in precisely ordered sequence of steps...

    This is not something you just think of or stumble upon while picking your nose not only because of how complex the equipment and the procedure is. It is impossible to just invent something like this because that would require deep understanding of physics and chemistry. To invent something like a fire drill, you would need to know that friction would eventually lead to sawdust turning into coal. This was far beyond the intellectual ability of our Neanderthal and Cro Magnon ancestors. There was nothing in their experience that would lead them to that kind of conclusion and compel them to embark on inventing something as complex as a fire drill.

    I believe that fire making is something that gets discovered as a unexpected side effect of some other deliberate action which involves similar equipment and similar hard work, determination and skill but which has a more obvious connection between the action and the outcome and was therefore possible to develop without deep understanding of phisics and chemistry. Like drilling.

    Drilling or perforating materials such as bone, shell, ivory, antler, stone or wood is a technological skill that was first invented in the distant past archaeological record. The earliest examples date to a period in time when Neanderthals were still living in Europe and the Near East. The oldest scientifically recognized drilled beads were made of ostrich eggshells. They were discovered in an early Later Stone Age stratum in Border Cave, in South Africa and date to sometime between 45,000 and 33,000 years ago.



    Many different primitive hole drilling devices have been invented by different cultures around the world. These four drawings illustrate four of them, although there are many more. The one on the left is a bow drill, the next one is a pump drill, then a disc drill and the one to the right is an Eskimo strap drill.
    There is no way of knowing which, if any, of these techniques were used to drill shell beads at Cahokia. It's only logical to theorize that one of these fairly simple machines might have been used. Only the stone drill bits and some of the drilled shells have survived. Most of the lesser stable materials that would have been used to make a drilling device have decayed long ago. But it wouldn't be impossible to find evidence of one. There has been some wooden objects found at Cahokia. In Mound 72 some of the wooden cedar stretchers were preserved and in feature 227 there was some matting and bark preserved. Also in feature 237 there was a section of twisted knotted cord.

    The first drill must have been developed from an awl. An awl is defined as a small pointed tool for piercing holes in leather, wood and other soft materials.

    The first drill was probably held in one hand against the material to be drilled and simply turned back and forth until a hole was bored through.


    The stone micro-drill laying in the hole of this large flat disc shell bead is a perfect fit. It's one of the larger drills in the collection and the bead is one of the largest examples from the Cahokia Mounds site area. There have been hafting experiments of micro-drills done by different people over the years. Dan and Phyllis Morse (1983) reports on experiments done by Michael Sierzchula in 1980. He hafted the drills in freshly cut cane that was cut near a joint (growth node) so the joint would stop the drill from pushing in too deep. The spongy pith in the center of the cane is strong enough to hold the drill without any other fixing agent.

    Large numbers of drilled objects begin to appear 34 to 28 thousand years ago during the Aurignacian period in Europe. Excavations in caves and open air sites show that an explosion of sudden and innovative cultural changes took place. People begin to use musical instruments which indicates possible ceremony, ritual and dance. Plus all forms of art appears at this time which signifies the full emergence of modern symbolic expression. Personal adornment in the form of pierced objects also becomes evident in abundance at this time. Bead making and the technology to drill holes has been an important part of human development and social structures for a long time.

    The same process that produces a hole will also eventually produce a fire. I believe that someone trying to drill a hole in a wooden board or a wooden tube discovered fire making accidentally. All friction fire drill type making tools are effectively drills without flints.

    The basic technique for making fire by friction involves hand spinning a drill (a stick) against the bottom of a hole in a hearth board. The hand spun fire drill, the oldest drilling wood friction method, accomplishes this through hand pressure against the drill while bearing down with the weight of the body while continuing to spin the drill as fast as possible.


    Friction from rubbing the sticks together produces heat and (if the correct woods are used) fine powdery sawdust, or char. The char is collected in a notch cut into the center of the hole. This concentrates the heat, the wood acting as an insulator. If the char is heated to 800 degrees Fahrenheit (427 Celsius) it will begin to smolder (data courtesy of Richard Baugh). Placing the smoldering char (ember) into a bed of tinder (fine, dry plant fibers) and blowing gently will cause the tinder to burst into flames. This is much easier to describe than to accomplish. Reaching 800 degrees Fahrenheit (427 Celsius) requires considerable pressure be applied to the drill.

    With practice, a strong, fairly heavy, well conditioned person (Neandrthal or Cro Magnon) can get an ember in a few seconds of hard work, under ideal conditions.

    What probably happened was that under pressure, the flint tip slipped up into the handle. If the person was drilling a hole in a wooden board, and did not notice that the drill had no tip, and continued to drill for a few seconds more, the friction would ignite the char and create coal. Have a look at these primitive micro drills:


    You will notice that the flint tips are inserted in the center of the cane and are much narrower than the cane itself. So the produced hole will be much narrower than the cane handle. If the person was drilling a thin wooden board or a wooden pipe, then at some stage the stone tip would go right through. If the person continued to spin the drill, the wooden rim, the edge of the drill would start rubbing against the edge of the hole which was already covered in sawdust and very hot. This direct friction would almost instantly ignite the sawdust if the board or pipe which was drilled was made of a correct type of wood. One of the best woods you can use in Europe for hand fire drill is Elder wood. It produces the sawdust with perfect granularity (not too rough and not fine) which ignites at very low temperature. And believe or not elder is the best European tree for making actual hand drills with stone tips:

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Here is an instruction how to make a hand drill by sinking a pointed quartz crystal into a hand-drill spindle and affixing it with pitch. One of the photos shows the cutting and sanding tools, deer dung, Douglas fir pitch (and little neck clam shell container in which to melt it), elderberry and honeysuckle spindles, and quartz crystals necessary to make a hand drill. Here are the finished drills:


    Why is elder ideal for making hand micro drills? Because it, like cane is hollow, with the center filled with spongy pith which is ideal for inserting small pieces of flint or quartz.


    This central pith can be drilled out and you end up with a great hollow tube:


    These tubes are ideal for making whistles and flutes:

    Here is how you make elder whistle:


    Here is how you make elder flute:


    The earliest known flutes are made from bone:
    A number of flutes dating to the European Upper Paleolithic have been discovered. The undisputed claims are all products of the Aurignacian archaeological culture, beginning about 43,000 to 35,000 years ago, and have been found in the Swabian Alb region of Germany. These flutes represent the earliest known musical instruments and provide valuable evidence of prehistoric music. The presence of these flutes demonstrates that a developed musical tradition existed from the earliest period of modern human presence in Europe.[1]

    The artifact known as the Divje Babe flute, discovered in Slovenia in 1995, has been claimed as the oldest flute, though this has been disputed. The artifact is a cave bear femur, 60 000 - 50 0000 years old, that has been pierced with spaced holes. Its discoverer suggested the holes were man made and that there may have been four originally before the item was damaged.[2] However, other scientists have argued that the holes are the result of the bone fragment having been chewed by an animal rather than by human design.[3] A general consensus that the Divje Babe flute actually is a flute is now growing, as the view of the Neanderthal human is changing[citation needed]. The Neanderthal man was much more sophisticated than we have believed, and might have both manufactured the flute and played on it[citation needed].
    Until 2012 the oldest undisputed musical instrument was the Hohle Fels Flute discovered in the Hohle Fels cave in Germany's Swabian Alb in 2008. The flute is made from a vulture's wing bone perforated with five finger holes, and dates to approximately 35,000 years ago.[1] Several years before, two flutes made of mute swan bone and one made of woolly mammoth ivory were found in the nearby Geißenklösterle cave. The team that made the Hohle Fels discovery wrote that these finds are the earliest evidence of humans being engaged in musical culture. They suggested music may have helped to maintain bonds between larger groups of humans, and that this may have helped the species to expand both in numbers and in geographical range.[4] In 2012, a fresh high-resolution carbon dating examination revealed an age of 42,000 to 43,000 years for the flutes from the Geißenklösterle cave, suggesting that they rather than the one from the Hohle Fels cave could be the oldest known musical instruments.[5][6][7]

    Here is how you would make one of these bone flutes. You can see that you don't actually need a drill to make this type of flutes as the bone is already hollow and the finger holes can be made using simple sharp pointy stone:

    So if the oldest bone flute is less than 60,000 years old, then the oldest elder flute which requires use of hand drill has to be younger than 35,000 years, and it falls right at the time of Cro Magnon.

    One of the most important things you need to know when you make elder flutes is that the best wood for making flutes is deadwood, because it is dry and it won't shrink after it has been cut. This same dead wood is for the same reason ideal for producing fire by friction. Fire drill spindle and board have to be as dry as they can be otherwise all the heat generated by friction will be wasted on moisture evaporation. Here is a very good video explaining technical details of using a hand fire drill and particularly the importance of dryness of wood:

    So imagine making an elder flute. You are making it from a dry dead wood branch. You have already pushed the pith out and are left with a hollow tube. You are drilling finger holes using your elder micro drill made out of a very dry elder branch. You are drilling the hole and suddenly the drill stone tip pushes through the flute tube wall. The drill wooden edge starts rubbing against the wood of the flute. What you have here is elder rubbing against elder, which is supposedly the best wood combination for hand fire drill.

    Elderberry (Sambucus sp.) makes excellent spindles, especially for a hand spun fire drill. Select shoots that are about 1/2 inch in diameter and fairly straight. Second or third year growth is best because the wood will be the correct thickness. Elderberry spindles work so well because they have a soft pith core of from 3/16 to 3/8 inch diameter. As a consequence when twirling the drill your muscle power is a rapid rise in temperature. Avoid first year stems which have too much pith and only a thin wood section. Cut elderberry shoots while they are green, heat them in an oven (250 degrees) and straighten them while still damp. Then leave them in the oven a few hours until they are perfectly dry. These "non-abo" techniques can only be justified in that I need to prepare a large number of spindles at a time for the classes that I help teach. The slower alternative in preparing spindles is to straighten them with heat while they are green, tie them in bundles of 2, 3 or 7 and leave them in a warm dry place. Elderberry wood which is larger in diameter is also good for hearth boards although fairly dense. As a consequence of its greater density it requires more "horsepower" from a hand-spun drill to reach ignition temperature. That is a non-problem for a bow drill.

    Here is a list of successful wood combinations and elder is always clasified as great:

    I am beginning to believe that God has great sense of humor. The wood that is the most suited for making micro drills, is the same wood that is the best for making flutes and is the same wood that is the best for producing fire using hand drill. So it was almost inevitable that fire drill was invented. There was almost no chance that it wouldn't be invented. So here is the final product of the flute drilling accident: hand fire drill:

    The Parts

    First, you must understand the vital physical parts of this friction fire kit. Let’s talk about the two separate parts first.

    Spindle: This is the long, straight piece that is spun in the hands to produce friction, dust and eventually a coal. When choosing a spindle from the wild, find a pithy plant such as mullein, elderberry, butterfly bush, salmonberry, bigleaf maple or similar plants that are about pinky finger thickness. Make sure they are very straight for at least an 18-inch section and smooth them with a knife so as not to tear up your hands.

    Fireboard: This is the board with which the spindle mates. This is a thin board – about finger thickness – that is cut out of a dead and dry, semi-soft wood. Give the potential fire board material the thumb nail test for hardness - If you can’t mark it with your nail, then the wood is too dense. If you easily make a deep mark, the wood is too soft. If you make a small mark, then the wood should be just right.

    Good woods to use for the fireboard in the Pacific Northwest are: cottonwood root, aspen, willow and western red cedar. Split the board out and carve it so that it is flat on both sides to reduce any tendency to wobble.

    Here is an excellent video on how to use hand fire drill:

    If we look at the Elder wiki page we see this:
    According to the Celtic Tree Calendar, the Elder is the thirteenth tree of the year and dates from the 25th November – 22nd December, as such the Elder tree is associated with Yule - the Winter Solstice, which generally occurs around the 21st December.

    The word Elder is derived from an old Anglo-Saxon word ‘aeld’ meaning fire, an association given to the Elder because of its use. The soft pith of an Elder branch pushes out easily and the tubes formed were once used as pipes for blowing up fires, later bellows were made from Elder for the same use. From this followed the folk names Pipe-Tree, Bore-tree or Bour-tree, the latter is still being used in Scotland and is traceable to the Anglo-Saxon term Burtre. Other early names include Eldrun or Ellhorn, and then later in the fourteenth century it became known as Hyldor or Hyllantree. In Germany it is known as Hollunder. Other uses for the elder tree are for making a hand drill for fire lighting, and also hollowing out to make various items such as pipes, whistles, pea shooters or using as a blow pipe to heat specific parts of a fire.
    The elder, having clusters of white flowers and red or blackish berry-like fruit, has many associations with the fairy world in oral traditions of recent centuries in Celtic countries. On the Isle of Man, where elder grows abundantly and is called tramman, it is commonly thought of as the ‘ fairy tree’. In Ireland many individual elder trees were thought haunted by fairies or demons. Old Irish is tromm; Modern Irish is trom; Scots Gaelic, troman, droman; Welsh, ysgawen; Cornish, scawen; Breton, skavenn.[10]

    In Serbian elder is called "zova" meaning the calling tree, the sounding tree, the tree you make whistles and flutes and pipes from. Another name for elder in Serbian is "bazga" which comes from a common Slavic root "bas".

    Serbians also believed that faeries lived in elder bushes and cutting elder was a taboo and it was believed that cutting elder tree would bring bad luck and even death. Even cutting a branch required repeating this prayer to elder three times: "lady elder please give me a branch and i will plant another elder tree in the forest".

    This taboo is easy to understand now that we know how important elder was for making drills and fire drills.

    In Serbian tale "The Goat's Ears of emperor Trojan" elder is the tree from which a flute of truth was made:
    The emperor Trojan had goat's ears, but kept this fact a secret from the populace. Every day, he had a new barber whom he would ask if he noticed anything strange; when the man answered that he had goat's ears, he was put to death. One day, an apprentice went, and said that he saw nothing strange, so he remained as the emperor's barber. The apprentice found his secret troubling him. His master advised him to tell him, the master, or his pastor, or to whisper it into a hole in the ground.
    The apprentice dug a hole, whispered into it that the emperor had goat's ears, and filled it up again. An elder tree grew there, someone cut a branch and made a flute, but the only thing the flute would play was "The Emperor Trojan has goat's ears."
    The news spread, and the emperor discovered it and wormed the secret out of the apprentice. He had the last branch cut and found the flute made from it was the same. He spared the apprentice's life but did not keep him on as his barber.

    This comes directly from the Serbian folk belief that elder tree is the tree of the devil and the underworld. A flute made from elder could pass messages from the underworld. Elder has magical properties and can cure any illness. It also protects from fire and from thunder and lightning. This last belief directly links elder with fire making. Elder spindle is earthly equivalent of a thunder bolt. It is the original magic wand.

    On Christmas day elder branches were dipped in oil and lit up to protect from witches and demons. Elder tree was also commonly planted near the house to protect the house from evil spirits.

    What is interesting here is that in Serbian folk tradition with arrival of Christianity, Triglav, Trojan (Dabog) was turned into Devil. So the reason why elder is linked with devil and the Underworld is because it was originally the holy tree of God Triglav (Dabog), Agni, fire.

    A spindle made from elder tree was a magic wand with which Triglav, Agni, Fire could be called into existence. This gives Serbian name for elder ("zova" meaning the calling tree, the sounding tree) another added meaning: the tree which is used to call, summon Triglav, Agni, fire.

    This is another video showing the use of hand fire drill for making fire. If you listen to the sound that the fire drill makes you will see why the elder tree is in Serbian also called bazga, bažoina, bazag, bazdov, bazgovina, bazovika, boz, buzovka, budzova.

    The sound that the fire drill makes is bzzzzzbzbzbz.....The oldest names for things are always onomatopoeic, so both zova and bazga are pretty old. And they are still with us today which points again at cultural and language continuity.

    As we saw, without a hand micro drill there would be no hand fire drill, which puts probable time of fire drill discovery at some time during last 35,000 years. Bow drill, pump drill were all invented much later, as they required invention of rope, bow, hafted axe.

    More about that next time.

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Hunter-gatherers and immigrant farmers lived side-by-side for more than 2,000 years in Central Europe, before the hunter-gatherer communities died out or were absorbed into the farming population.
    Researchers made a new analysis of DNA and isotopes from human bones found in the 'Blätterhöhle' cave near Hagen in Germany, where both hunter-gatherers and farmers were buried. The team, led by anthropologist Professor Joachim Burger of the Johannes Gutenberg University, Germany, used stable isotopes to determine their diet, DNA to investigate how they were related, and radiocarbon to establish how old the bones were.
    "It is commonly assumed that the European hunter-gatherers disappeared soon after the arrival of farmers", said Dr Ruth Bollongino, lead author of the study. "But our study shows that the descendants of the first European humans maintained their hunter-gatherer way of life, and lived in parallel with the immigrant farmers, for at least 2,000 years. The hunter-gathering way of life only died out in Central Europe around 5,000 years ago, much later than previously thought."
    "Until around 7,500 years ago all central Europeans were hunter-gatherers," said Professor Mark Thomas, professor of evolutionary genetics at UCL, and a co-author of the study. "They were the descendants of the first wave of our species to arrive in Europe, around 45,000 years ago. They survived the last Ice Age and the warming that started around 10,000 years ago. And now it seems they also survived the initial wave of farmers spreading across Europe from the southeast of the continent."
    Previously it was assumed that the hunter-gatherers rapidly died out or were absorbed into the farming populations. "Our study now shows that the hunter-gatherers stayed in close proximity to farmers, had contact with them for thousands of years, and buried their dead in the same cave," said Professor Thomas "This contact was not without consequences, because hunter-gatherer women sometimes married into the farming communities, while no genetic lines of farmer women have been found in hunter-gatherers", explained Burger.
    For a long time the team were unable to make sense of the findings. "It was only through the analysis of isotopes in the human remains, performed by our Canadian colleagues, that the pieces of the puzzle began to fit," states Bollongino. She added: "The results showed that the hunter-gatherers sustained themselves in Central and Northern Europe on a very specialized diet that included fish, among other things, until 5,000 years ago. And what is more, the hunter-gatherers living at the same time as the farmers were genetically more similar to the pre-farming hunter-gatherers than to the contemporaneous farmers."
    The team also pursued the question of what impact both groups had on the gene pool of modern Europeans. Adam Powell, mathematician and specialist in demographic modeling at the JGU Institute of Anthropology, explained: "While neither hunter-gatherers nor farmers are to be regarded as the sole ancestors of today's Europeans, it is the mixing of both populations that potentially represents the ancestry of modern-day Europeans."

    Another proof that people of Central Europe could have preserved at least part of Cro Magnon culture and language to this day. This would explain the preservation of early fire myths among the R1a people.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking

    Fire made by fire drill is very much like a living thing. It is made by friction of fire drill and fire board. Fire drill stick looks like a penis with a blacken head from whose tip springs an amber, a seed of fire. The fact that the best woods that can be used for hand fire drill are all hollow and filled with white foamy pith makes resemblance between fire drill and penis is even bigger. The circular hole made by the fire drill stick in the fire board is the vagina, womb in which the seed of fire is caught to produce coal, baby fire.


    Baby fire (a coal) needs to be nurtured in order to be become a fire todler (a flame). For that you use fire nest made of dry grass, plant fibres like cattail fibre or cotton wood fibre. You can't use wool or hair as it is actually not very flamable. Here are pictures of a fire nest.


    Gently blow on the coal to make it glow more. then carefully lift the fire board away, and transfer the coal (a small stick is helpful) into the tinder bundle (fire nest).

    Blow gently through the tinder bundle and it should suddenly burst into flame (be careful of your fingers), and now you have fire!


    Not it is time to start feeding the infant fire with twigs, bark shavings and thin branches:


    Now keep adding thicker and thicker branches like this:


    Now you have a nice fire. Once the fire is created it can multiply, reproduce. If you take a burning coal from this fire and use it to start another fire, this new fire is a child of the old fire but also the old fire itself. All village fires started from a need fire are all one and the same fire, the eternal fire. This eternal fire, which existed before man was born, and will exist after man disappears, is Agni.
    Agni is brilliant, golden, has flaming air and beard, three or seven tongues, his face is light, his eyes shine, he has sharp teeth, he makes a cracking noise, and leaves a black trail behind. He is fond of clarified butter, but he also eats wood and devours the forest in fact he eats everything. He is in particular a destroyer of demons and a slayer of enemies. Though old, Agni is also ageless and permanently young. Himself fertile, he is the son and manifestation of victorious strength. He gives long life. From the dry wood Agni is born living; as soon as born the child devours his parents. By the ten maidens that produce him are meant the ten fingers of the kindler. Owing to the force required to kindle Agni he is often called 'son of strength' (sáhasah sunúh). Being produced every morning he is young; at the same time no sacrificer is older than Agni, for he conducted the first sacrifice.

    Man can create fire every morning, but that new fire is just a part of the eternal fire. We clearly see here that the description of the parents of Agni, is description of fire drill and it's usage.
    Prajapati created the gods. Agni is born first, from prajapathi’s mouth.

    I like this. Is this an allusion to "Man created gods"? Most likely, considering that Agni, fire was the firs god created by Prajapati.
    But since Agni, the ungrateful child, turned to him with wide-open mouth, when Prajapathi reflected "if there is no other food here but myself, surely he would never eat me “. Prajapathi, terrified could only save himself by reproducing himself and saves himself from Agni...

    Man can only save himself from fire (funeral fire) by making himself immortal through his children. If a sperm is part of a father and an egg is part of a mother, then a child is part of father and mother. We are all our ancestors, we are all one and eternal as long as we procreate. Eternal man, Prajapati, and eternal fire Agni. Man who created god who will devour Man in ultimate Sacrifice.

    The idea of a god sacrificing himself is preserved in the ritual called Agnicayana; In Agnicayana ritual. the sacrificer or Yajamana, is some times identified with the sacrificial victim. The idea of self –sacrifice is the basic to the Prajapathi cosmology and to the cyclical conquest of death through rebirth, which characterize the ‘srutha ritual’ in general and Agnichayana particular.

    This ritual originated around 1000 BC. During its performance, a large altar in the shape of a bird, dedicated to Agni and itself also called Agni, was piled from more than a thousand bricks.



    Here we see again a remembrance of the time when fire bird, was the sole bringer of fire.

    Here is a very good documentary about Agnicayana:

    This is a sacrificial vessel used in Agnicayana. The phallic insinuation is more than visible.

    Prajapati (Sanskrit: meaning "Lord of Offspring" or "Lord of Creatures") is the Hindu god of animals and protector of the male sex organ.
    Prajapati's importance in ritual is attested to by his identification with Agni, the fire god who was absolutely central to Vedic rituals. By identifying Agni as Prajpati, the latter became central to the Vedic ritual known as the Agnicayana, the ritual of fire. In the Vedic world-view, the installation of the fire at the central altar was thought to ensure the reconstitution of the universe. This year-long procedure established the world as a five-layered altar with fire at its heart, representing the atman, or the human soul. Agni was not only the soul of Prajpati but also the soul of the human being performing his sacrifice; hence the duality of human and god was temporarily dissolved during the fire ritual. Similarly, in the Vajapeya ritual, the performer of the rite would consume the intoxicating soma beverage in hopes of experiencing the mystical totality of Prajapati. By realizing correspondence between the human soul and Prajpati in both the Agnicayana and the Vajapeya rituals, the sacrificer was thought to be able to escape perpetual death within the cosmic cycle. This idea would continue to influence the development of the Upanishads, which postulated a monistic essence that permeated the entire universe.

    I already spoke about the meaning of Prajapati:

    Prajapati means creator, maker, progenitor.

    Prajapati could also be broken into Pra + Japati. If we change p into bh (interchangeable consonants) we get Pra + Jabhati.

    In Sanskrit, "Pra" means layer, filling but also before, in front. This together gives us the meaning old, ancestor, one which is in a layer before ours, ancient. This is the meaning of word Pra in Serbian. Pra means old, from distant past. Pra deda is great grand father.

    In Sanskrit, "Jabhati" means to know carnally or in plain English to fu*k. In Serbian Jebati (pronounced yebatee) means to fu*k. But this also means to produce seed, to fertilize, to make babies.

    Prajapati thus in Serbian means "the first fuc*er :), the ancestor, the maker" which is exactly the same meaning as in Sanskrit.

    In Sanskrit ja means: birth, light, viSNu, enjoyment, lustre, father, son of, offspring, produced, prepared from, belonging to, produced or caused by, born or descended from, born or produced, made of or with, race, tribe...In Serbian Ja means Self, Myself, I, the one who exists, who speaks...

    This has the same root as Jabh (to fuc*k) and is the root of the word Praja = Pra + Ja(bh).

    praja - bringing forth, bearing , posterity, descendant, semen, era, progeny, procreation, subjects, family, offspring, propagation, animal, man, children, race, birth, generation, mankind, subject of a king, seed, people, husband

    This is where name Priapus comes from.
    Latin, from Ancient Greek Πρίαπος (Príapos).
    From Ancient Greek Πρίαπος (Príapos), the origin of his name is unknown.

    From this we can clearly see why there is a constantly emphasized connection between fire making using fire drill, and baby making. This is why "Live" need fire is made using fire drill.